Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[GreatEx]

I don't like the challenge system. How would it work in football?

- stop the play if the manager raises a challenge? Prone to abuse, might stop promising attacks
- wait until next stoppage and then raise challenge? Could end up reviewing something that happened two minutes ago, wrecks the flow of the game
- only allow challenge for goals and penalties? If you get 2 reviews a game then managers will simply use them on every goal & penalty in the hope of spawning an overturn. Shite. And every goal/penalty gets reviewed by VAR anyway, right?

It works in cricket because every [potential] wicket is a natural stoppage, and there are 10 wickets per innings so giving each team 2 reviews means they have to use them judiciously. In a sport where teams average less than 2 goals a game, having 2 reviews per team guarantees bureaucratic bloat.

Every new initiative in North American sport is designed to increase advertising exposure. Follow their lead at your peril.

[Markus_12]

I don’t know how a challenge system would work, but the goal should be to reduce the number of times VAR is intervening in a game. VAR was created with the intention of being used once every few games, but it is now being used multiple times every game. It’s at the point where refs and linesmen actually call the game differently on purpose just to let it go to VAR FFS.

We are well past the point where the negatives outweigh the positives.

[4pool]

It was approximately 13 seconds from when Mac Allister "handled" the ball until Quansah scored.

[GreatEx]

It was approximately 13 seconds from when Mac Allister "handled" the ball until Quansah scored.

VAR now basically serves to increase the number of penalties and rule out as many open play goals as possible. It must be destroyed. 

[coolbyrne]

So you don't think match officials or VAR are not shitting themselves every time the light is shone on them. They can't even decide on what they should be reviewing as we have seen them look at a phase of play going from is that a goal, was there a foul in the build up, was there a handball fifteen seconds beforehand. Ref the fucking game or just sit back watch ten replays and then ref the game. This version of the game we grew up on sucks ass. It was sucking beforehand as every few years we get someone who thinks they know what's best for the game, alter the playing field somewhat and we get this shyte. This season has highlighted how bad those in charge from the top down, the vast majority have never even played the game professionally but seem to know what's best for it. Horse shyte is the result. Crazy thing is the ref got it right for once tonight, actually thought he was decent compared to the crass we have seen in the league but low and behold VAR made a right fkup but they couldn't help themselves. They had to get involved, have a feeling they are loving their time in the limelight.

Why would they be shitting themselves? Get the wrong call, oh well, apologies and back to refereeing next week's game. The entire VAR process needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up.

[red_Mark1980]

Arguing about the attacking phase and how far back is an irrelevance.

It's not on his arm. The rules are clear that anything this high above the end of the sleeve isn't handball.

I had to laugh as if the roles were reversed and Tolouse came back from 3-1 down with that in the last minute, no way is it being disallowed

[The North Bank]

I thought it was inconclusive and and could’ve gone either way. You just need to accept it and move on.


I didn’t actually watch it, just giving my thoughts.

[Alan_X]

Rugby has a much better system in that they look at the whole phase if play in normal speed and then in detail or in slow motion.

Rashford was sent off by, in my opinion, looking at a still or in slow motion. Yes if you see the contact then it looks very bad but if you look at the full clip then you can see that it was purely accidental and there was no intent nor could he really have avoided it.

This nonsense of VAR focusing on one incident in minute detail is ruining the game. I am wondering if they understand the game at all or if they are looking for the “headline” picture which makes the incident look bad.

As for MacAllister’s handball, a ball bouncing off the body onto a static arm that is in a natural position should not be handball. Did the ref miss it? Yes. Was it deliberate? No. Did he gain any advantage? No.Did the subsequent pass lead to a goal without the defence clearing the ball? No. I would have no problem if MacAllister had brought his arm to the ball to control it but even then the defence played the ball out of immediate danger.

For me, the only way to use VAR effectively is to have a checklist and clear guidelines. A red card for a foul should only be given for dangerous play and not for an accident. A handball is only when it is deliberate or if the player has adequate time to take their hand away or if the arm is away from the body. If the arm is close to the side and the ball bounces off part of the body onto the arm then it’s not a handball. Yes there will always be grey areas and subjectivity but a good checklist would minimise this and ensure better decisions.

For me there are far too many weird decisions which appear to be down to the opinion of the VAR person.

Rugby isn't football. It's a stop-start game with distinct phases of play. It's also worth pointing out that rugby has a tiny audience compared to football, probably because it's a stop-start game without the ebb and flow of football.

I did my best to watch some of the Rugby World Cup but fuck me, what a dreary spectacle.

With every goal now, I sometimes get the same joy but then the soul-destroying knowledge that some c*nt in Stockley Park or its european equivalent is going to be dragging over videos of it to find some reason to disallow it kicks in. VAR is literally sucking the enjoyment out of the game.

If VAR had been a thing when I first started watching football I honestly think I would have binned it off. I said right from the beginning that it would ruin the game. Take the most popular sport in the world. Popular because it's dynamic but low scoring, so when the goals come they are moments of high drama and ecstacy or despair... take it and then destroy the drama to achieve a marginal improvement in the accuracy of referee's decisions. And not oinly that, rewrite the rules and guidance to accommodate the technology.

[Alan_X]

Why would they be shitting themselves? Get the wrong call, oh well, apologies and back to refereeing next week's game. The entire VAR process needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up.

Corrected for you.

[Mister Flip Flop]

fucking hell...

refs are a joke these days

Ref called it correctly at first but once called over to look at it had no choice as they are all cowards and afraid to rock the boat.

I've yet to talk to a fan that think VAR is a good idea but all the pundits and TV companies think it's great, strange one that eh....

[Alan_X]

From 2017:

Handball does give leeway - that's the problem. How do you know 100% whether Solanke intentionally moved his arm to control the ball? It could have been given if the ref or linesman thought it was accidental but they must have decided the arm was moving towards the ball. It doesn't matter what happened with Koscielny - the ref applies the laws and the guidance to the game he's in charge of. It's highly unlikely that the ref and the linesman don't know the Laws of the Game.

There have been plenty of studies showing the actual time the ball is in play but that's the way the game works. It's a fluid game not stop-and-start. 60 minutes of 'play' and 30 minutes when the ball is dead in some fashion.

And I'm still waiting to hear how VAR will make decisions about intent. Goal line technology works because it's an absolute. Offside could feasibly work if the technology could accurately sense when a player is offside and signal the linesman in real time. Video recall won't work. But there are a lot of laws that rely on judgement to assess intent.

Remember when hand to ball or ball to hand was a thing?

[Mister Flip Flop]

I don't like the challenge system. How would it work in football?

- stop the play if the manager raises a challenge? Prone to abuse, might stop promising attacks
- wait until next stoppage and then raise challenge? Could end up reviewing something that happened two minutes ago, wrecks the flow of the game
- only allow challenge for goals and penalties? If you get 2 reviews a game then managers will simply use them on every goal & penalty in the hope of spawning an overturn. Shite. And every goal/penalty gets reviewed by VAR anyway, right?

It works in cricket because every [potential] wicket is a natural stoppage, and there are 10 wickets per innings so giving each team 2 reviews means they have to use them judiciously. In a sport where teams average less than 2 goals a game, having 2 reviews per team guarantees bureaucratic bloat.

Every new initiative in North American sport is designed to increase advertising exposure. Follow their lead at your peril.

NO no no no fuckity no. No more new rules, no more Americanisation of the game just bin the thing and let us go back to pre VAR times. For the love of god it's turning he game into an unwatchable shitfest 

[moondog]

Arguing about the attacking phase and how far back is an irrelevance.

It's not on his arm. The rules are clear that anything this high above the end of the sleeve isn't handball.

I had to laugh as if the roles were reversed and Tolouse came back from 3-1 down with that in the last minute, no way is it being disallowed

Absolutely , a decision made by the scriptwriter in order to give Toulouse a dramatic victory. The ref was correct until the VAR got involved to maintain the storyline. No way an equaliser for them would have been ruled out if the roles were reversed.

[Alan_X]

I don’t know how a challenge system would work, but the goal should be to reduce the number of times VAR is intervening in a game. VAR was created with the intention of being used once every few games, but it is now being used multiple times every game. It’s at the point where refs and linesmen actually call the game differently on purpose just to let it go to VAR FFS.

We are well past the point where the negatives outweigh the positives.

Actually, VAR was created because we have cameras at the game and there was some wooly thought about improving accuracy. But no one properly thought through what the impact of VAR would have on actual football matches that are played in real time with people in the ground and millions watching on TV.

[BarryCrocker]

Absolutely , a decision made by the scriptwriter in order to give Toulouse a dramatic victory. The ref was correct until the VAR got involved to maintain the storyline. No way an equaliser for them would have been ruled out if the roles were reversed.

Out of interest who is the scriptwriter in all this?

[Alan_X]

Out of interest who is the scriptwriter in all this?

It's the massive conspiracy by UEFA and the European referees to give a mid-table French team a win that puts them second in a Europa league group table... come on, keep up.

[RyanBabel19]

The officials are the problem!!

How can anything but the people who implement it incorrectly be the issue?

It's easier to scrap VAR, but I dont think it's correct

[The North Bank]

Remember when those against it used to say “we ll have nothing to talk about down the pub” . Didn’t quite work out that way.


It needs adjusting, not working at the moment. Even when they’re getting reasonable decisions its taking so long it stops the rhythm of the game.

Was at west ham last night, horrible place to watch football anyway, between bubbles var a dj and fireworks.  Cant remember any of the football

[Knight]

It needs binning. It's incredible to me that people are still talking about adjustments. At core it's a rotten system and tinkering won't solve it.

[Elzar]

The rugby referee's have it a bit easier, as a longer break in play isn't as annoying in Rugby as Football. They still aren't perfect remember. They are much better at communicating though, as they all act as professionals and not best mates having a giggle. Maybe that's because they are broadcast out.

VAR in football should be the guy in the truck watching it back at normal speed from all his angles (or with the ability to pause for offsides), and then telling the ref the correct decision.
No slow-mo, no rolling back 2 frames to show only part of a tackle. Watch the full incident at normal speed, in context and referee it as you would. The VAR is part of the referee team, this shite about the onfield ref needing the final opinion is a load of bollocks. The linesman doesn't ask him to come stand on the sideline and to explain an offside and let him make his own mind up.

This would take less time, be fairer in judgement and still pick up any obvious errors.

[tubby]

It's not the system that's the issue it's the shit refs.  And they're just as shit on the continent as they are over here, we just see less of them so don't realise just how bad they are too.

[B0151?]

Agree it needs binning. I don't see how reform is possible when even the worst decisions you get ex player pundit defending it.

Bin it off, use the money to attract and train the best possible refs, make them more accountable through being mic'ed up and press conferenced.

[B0151?]

It's not the system that's the issue it's the shit refs.  And they're just as shit on the continent as they are over here, we just see less of them so don't realise just how bad they are too.

You are paying a lot of money to have more shit refs make more shit decisions, while ruining match flow and the moments that make football special (goals).

You can't really detach the shit refs from the system so I think you do have to consider them as one really. You could argue if there was an improvement in refs there would be much less a need for the concept of VAR anyway. Right now VAR is just compounding the problem and giving more opportunities for them refs to impact the game with poor decisions

[Knight]

BO151 that's exactly right. The 'refs are bad so we should continue to empower them to negatively interfere with the game more by keeping VAR' argument isn't exactly watertight!

[ScottScott]

Get rid of it. Goal line technology and automated offsides should be the limit of what we use. At least they work

Allowing multiple dickheads to get involved in decisions has just ruined the game. Anyone with half a brain can see that isn't a handball (and the ref has a great view initially and gives nothing) and then can also see the amount of time between it happening and the goal going in is an absolute age and allows them to reset about 3 times, once after them clearing the fucking ball. They wanted to give Toulouse the win, it's as simple as that. I'm sick to fucking death of getting fucked over by refs

[Alan_X]

...You can't really detach the shit refs from the system so I think you do have to consider them as one really. You could argue if there was an improvement in refs there would be much less a need for the concept of VAR anyway. Right now VAR is just compounding the problem and giving more opportunities for them refs to impact the game with poor decisions

This sums it up nicely. Being pro-VAR is the sporting equivalent of the gun lobby in the US. VAR isn't the problem, people are the problem... if only we could stop the bad people using VAR everything would be fine. And in the meantime, let's have more VAR...

[tubby]

This sums it up nicely. Being pro-VAR is the sporting equivalent of the gun lobby in the US. VAR isn't the problem, people are the problem... if only we could stop the bad people using VAR everything would be fine. And in the meantime, let's have more VAR...

This analogy doesn't work though.  If you remove the guns, you're not left with people still able to kill others at the drop of a hat.  If you remove VAR, you're still left with refs able to make terrible decisions at the drop of a hat.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Looked like a handball to me at the time. On the replay, still looked like a handball.

Correct decision. Disappointing, but you can't be having a go at the ref for that.

[tubby]

Looked like a handball to me at the time. On the replay, still looked like a handball.

Correct decision. Disappointing, but you can't be having a go at the ref for that.

Do you think you'd have the same opinion had it happened in the PL?

[Knight]

This analogy doesn't work though.  If you remove the guns, you're not left with people still able to kill others at the drop of a hat.  If you remove VAR, you're still left with refs able to make terrible decisions at the drop of a hat.

It's not a perfect analogy but it does work. If you remove VAR you're no longer left with people who can make terrible decisions over the top of decisions already made (sometimes good, sometimes terrible). Also, if you remove VAR you necessarily reduce the number of decisions that refs are making because you end up simplifying rule sets. The handball last night is a good example. The handball rules in the case of a goal as they exist for attackers can only exist if VAR is there, because Mcallister's 'handball' isn't a handball unless a goal is scored. That is, the possibility of a 'review' is what makes it possible to give that as a handball. Without VAR the ref would decide in real time if a ball to a hand/arm merits a handball on its own merits, and then play would either stop or continue. With VAR a handball is retrospectively assessed given a goal has been scored. It's a nonsense.

[tubby]

It's not a perfect analogy but it does work. If you remove VAR you're no longer left with people who can make terrible decisions over the top of decisions already made (sometimes good, sometimes terrible). Also, if you remove VAR you necessarily reduce the number of decisions that refs are making because you end up simplifying rule sets. The handball last night is a good example. The handball rules in the case of a goal as they exist for attackers can only exist if VAR is there, because Mcallister's 'handball' isn't a handball unless a goal is scored. That is, the possibility of a 'review' is what makes it possible to give that as a handball. Without VAR the ref would decide in real time if a ball to a hand/arm merits a handball on its own merits, and then play would either stop or continue. With VAR a handball is retrospectively assessed given a goal has been scored. It's a nonsense.

But it's still the same people with the same power to make the same decisions.  You take guns away and people can't shoot each other anymore, that's completely different.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Do you think you'd have the same opinion had it happened in the PL?

Well. Yeah. It was handball. Not deliberate and very disappointing at the time, but the correct result.

That's all I've ever wanted - correct results and with VAR being available, less than 100% is not an option. It's not acceptable.

If every decision was correct then football would be a good sport to watch. At the moment, it's a fucking dumpster fire.

[classycarra]

I see we're back to the discussions of 5 years ago, when those warning about the inherent issues (like me, haha) were making clear that of course the system is at fault (to those true believers who thought it must logically mean things will improve) if it inherently can't handle the issues of subjectivity that adding multiple additional people into a subjective decision making process

Utterly pointless implementing it before fundamental principles are decided. But as ever, they have to make sweeping changes to act like they are doing something/making progress.

As it stands, noone implements the high foot and the hand ball the same way (to give two examples). Not to mention dives to the ground after contact and being fouled but staying standing trying to play on in the box.

If these basics aren't clear, VAR is just going to add time and uncertainty to an already declining amount of football that's played per game. It will be a disaster

literally all of this has happened in the five years since it was written, and i'm solely thinking of examples in LFC games. handball last night, so many hand balls in the league (chelsea first game of season, but also so many wrong examples for each of the changed interpretations), Jjota's high boot to Skipp's head, phases of play before offsides/handball decisions, players being rewarded for penalties because of contact but not a foul (wellbeck for brighton, mild touch from robertson). players not given fouls for staying on their feet and trying to play on (salah et al).

theyve changed rules and implementation and interpretation multiple times to try to sort out the inherent issues with subjectivity, and still seem surprised when each and every one fails to solve it.

[ScottScott]

Well. Yeah. It was handball. Not deliberate and very disappointing at the time, but the correct result.

That's all I've ever wanted - correct results and with VAR being available, less than 100% is not an option. It's not acceptable.

If every decision was correct then football would be a good sport to watch. At the moment, it's a fucking dumpster fire.

Oh you're being serious

It's a fucking joke of a decision and everyone knows it. Not a handball and it was an age between it and the goal anyway. If he doesn't give it in real time when he has line of sight (and no Toulouse player called for it) why do they have the right to go back and re-referee the game? Just fucking bin it off. It's ruined football and there's no way back

[Knight]

It's the same people with less power. Sure they can still do damage but they can do less damage, VAR multiplies opportunities for damage. Bad people without guns can still do damage, but they can do less damage.

[Ray K]

Oh you're being serious

It's a fucking joke of a decision and everyone knows it. Not a handball and it was an age between it and the goal anyway. If he doesn't give it in real time when he has line of sight (and no Toulouse player called for it) why do they have the right to go back and re-referee the game? Just fucking bin it off. It's ruined football and there's no way back

Never mind, it's just Andy being controversial and edgy for the sake of it. He'll be back to normal on Sunday.

[Knight]

I see we're back to the discussions of 5 years ago, when those warning about the inherent issues (like me, haha) were making clear that of course the system is at fault (to those true believers who thought it must logically mean things will improve) if it inherently can't handle the issues of subjectivity that adding multiple additional people into a subjective decision making process
literally all of this has happened in the five years since it was written, and i'm solely thinking of examples in LFC games.

theyve changed rules and implementation and interpretation multiple times to try to sort out the inherent issues with subjectivity, and still seem surprised when each and every one fails to solve it.

I think it's arguably lacking class to blow your own trumpet like this but you were bang on in 2018 and you're bang on today

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Oh you're being serious

It's a fucking joke of a decision and everyone knows it. Not a handball and it was an age between it and the goal anyway. If he doesn't give it in real time when he has line of sight (and no Toulouse player called for it) why do they have the right to go back and re-referee the game? Just fucking bin it off. It's ruined football and there's no way back

It was literally a handball. Are you saying it didn't hit his arm?

It was obvious at the time and the replay confirmed it.

Am I being whooshed?

[classycarra]

I think it's arguably lacking class to blow your own trumpet like this but you were bang on in 2018 and you're bang on today

it very definitely is! i did a search yesterday, thinking back to some of the arguments and was curious to see what i was saying and when (wasn't sure how long VAR had been around). then when I saw Alan quoting and referring to the old discussions, and people still arguing against him that the system should work like it was 2018 again, I thought i'd fight the icky feeling and just go for it

[carling]

Do you think you'd have the same opinion had it happened in the PL?

That's a lot different to what we see in the prem.  The handball is garbage to me, but it's something you see a lot of and a clear example of how VAR has gone down a bad road with no appreciation of the game.

If only we saw a lot of the stuff that happens against us in the PL.  It would make it a whole lot easier to swallow.