Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

I'll be honest, I can't see the controversy in the Rashford red card. Whether he means it or not is completely irrelevant, he is nowhere near the ball and plants a straight leg into the bottom of guys calf. It's reckless and dangerous. He would have got away with it if it was on the foot or even the ankle, but if you are that high on the leg with studs up and a straight leg then it is always going to be a red card. Intent has nothing to do with it, nor does the fact that 'Zidane used to do it all the time' as Scholes and Hargreaves kept using as some kind of defence...

The problem now is that managers and pundits are making such a fuss about every VAR decision that it starts to water down the effectiveness of the complaints about legitimate VAR f*ck ups. It's easy now for PGMOL and defenders of VAR to just say that there is some kind of agenda against VAR and group all of the complaints together.

I think another issue is that VAR has fucked up on so many occasions, whenever a decision is given there are always countless examples of similar decisions not being given (and vice versa). They've completely fucked it up and it needs ripping apart and starting again.

[Statto Red]

I think another issue is that VAR has fucked up on so many occasions, whenever a decision is given there are always countless examples of similar decisions not being given (and vice versa). They've completely fucked it up and it needs ripping apart and starting again.

I said before, they need to get rid of the clear & obvious error, terminology from the protocol, the protocol should be

Is it a red card, yes or no?
Is it a goal, yes or no?
Is it a penalty, yes or no?

It works well in Rugby.

[GreatEx]

The biggest way VAR is fucking the game may be the handball rule leading to far too many penalties. When I used to ref games there'd be handballs in the box all the time because no one at our level was a big enough dork to defend with their hands behind the back. I think I only ever once gave a penalty for it, for a goal line "save". There was probably always a hint of that even at the top level... "yeah, it clipped his hand but come on, he's near the edge of the box, the ball was travelling fast and it didn't really make a difference". But thanks to the technology the refs are under pressure to give penalties for the most trivial arm brushes. It's ridiculous the proportion of goals being scored this way. If every slight touch is being caught on camera, maybe it's time to make it an indirect free kick offence except for the most obviously intentional blocks.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

The biggest way VAR is fucking the game may be the handball rule leading to far too many penalties. When I used to ref games there'd be handballs in the box all the time because no one at our level was a big enough dork to defend with their hands behind the back. I think I only ever once gave a penalty for it, for a goal line "save". There was probably always a hint of that even at the top level... "yeah, it clipped his hand but come on, he's near the edge of the box, the ball was travelling fast and it didn't really make a difference". But thanks to the technology the refs are under pressure to give penalties for the most trivial arm brushes. It's ridiculous the proportion of goals being scored this way. If every slight touch is being caught on camera, maybe it's time to make it an indirect free kick offence except for the most obviously intentional blocks.

Simple solution is to award a free kick rather than a penalty, unless it is actually a deliberate handball or a handball that prevents a goal.

[thaddeus]

The biggest way VAR is fucking the game may be the handball rule leading to far too many penalties. When I used to ref games there'd be handballs in the box all the time because no one at our level was a big enough dork to defend with their hands behind the back. I think I only ever once gave a penalty for it, for a goal line "save". There was probably always a hint of that even at the top level... "yeah, it clipped his hand but come on, he's near the edge of the box, the ball was travelling fast and it didn't really make a difference". But thanks to the technology the refs are under pressure to give penalties for the most trivial arm brushes. It's ridiculous the proportion of goals being scored this way. If every slight touch is being caught on camera, maybe it's time to make it an indirect free kick offence except for the most obviously intentional blocks.

The Premier League interpretation seems better than UEFA's as it has additional caveats that don't seem to apply in European competitions:
- The arm has to be in an "unnatural position" e.g. Michael Keane running along with his arm stretched out in front of him
- A deflection onto the arm rules out the handball in most cases
There are, as always, some issues with how the law is applied by different officials but I think it's a pretty good starting point.

I don't think either of the penalties last night would have been given in the Premier League.  Ross Barkley, with his back to the ball, blocking Van Dijk's header with his arm is comparable to the penalty given to Man U.  Copenhagen's I'm less sure on as Maguire is a very handsy defender in general and his arms were only outstretched because he was trying to impede the forward (debatable if that's a "natural position").

I agree with your general point though.  I've only refereed kids games - where the most common handball is a kid getting scared and almost catching the ball - but when I used to play almost every handball shout was rejected with a "ball to hand" response.  In elite football though too many teams and players are shithouses that would exploit such a simplistic rule which I believe is why we have quite convoluted rules.

[Ski]

Over time they made all of the rules so deliberately vague and subjective so as they can then justify whatever decision they give and fuck consistency. It’s just make it up as you go along. Give what you want to and don’t give what you don’t want to. They’ll be a raft of ppl there to defend you and your decision making either way.

[Fromola]

Something needs to be done asap as the game is turning into a fucking fiasco world wide

Sepp Blatter warned everyone this would happen once video technology was introduced. He may have been corrupt (FIFA/UEFA always have been) but as soon as he left the floodgates opened.

[Fromola]

I said before, they need to get rid of the clear & obvious error, terminology from the protocol, the protocol should be

Is it a red card, yes or no?
Is it a goal, yes or no?
Is it a penalty, yes or no?

It works well in Rugby.

But it's often far too subjective. You could have a room full of pundits, a room full of fans, a room full of referees and they can all be 50/50 split over the decision. Clear and obvious is there so in theory everyone will agree with the decision but the distinction over that is again too subjective.

It shouldn't be used for penalty or red card decisions at all, but once the tech is there it's going to be used. You can't put the shit back in the horse.

[Zimagic]

I said before, they need to get rid of the clear & obvious error, terminology from the protocol, the protocol should be

Is it a red card, yes or no?
Is it a goal, yes or no?
Is it a penalty, yes or no?

It works well in Rugby.

Absolutely, and it should be very clear and strict when VAR can be applied and how / when they can intervene by themselves.
Once it goes to VAR, all decisions should be binary.
 

[BoRed]

I said before, they need to get rid of the clear & obvious error, terminology from the protocol, the protocol should be

Is it a red card, yes or no?
Is it a goal, yes or no?
Is it a penalty, yes or no?

It works well in Rugby.

The problem is that there are too many grey areas. My solution would be to have, say, three VARs, preferrably in three different countries, with no means of communication between each other or with the on-field team (other than conveying a decision), each with their own technician, and each given exactly 60 seconds to decide whether the on-field decision should be overturned or not. If all three vote to overturn within a minute, the decision is automatically overturned, the on-field ref doesn't need to have another look. If two vote to overturn, the on-field ref can have another look and make a final decision. And if fewer than two vote to overturn, the on-field decision stands. This would go for penalties, red cards, fouls in buildup to goals, etc. Offside would be automated.

Obviously, not all leagues would be able to afford this, but it shouldn't be a problem for the PL and UEFA.

[fowlermagic]

We can definitely say goodbye to free flowing football if it ever existed that much in the past few years. Officials are reffing scared, bailing out of decision making in the hope VAR can intervene while those in VAR are now shitting themselves in making a wrong decision.... Again. Time to let AI assume some of the responsibilities reducing the human error from the game. Bring in a ruling that gives the attacking player the benefit of doubt so the offside rule can go back in time as while it was never perfect it sure was less controversial than it is now. Let players defend again knowing an unintentional handball will not be penalised and diving should be an automatic yellow whether it be an attacker looking to claim a penalty or a defender falling over when he's allowed himself to be crowded into a corner with no where to go. Free flowing.... Surely that's the goal of the game and those that run it rather than watching an official ruin the possibility of a good game.

[4pool]

We can definitely say goodbye to free flowing football if it ever existed that much in the past few years. Officials are reffing scared, bailing out of decision making in the hope VAR can intervene while those in VAR are now shitting themselves in making a wrong decision.... Again. Time to let AI assume some of the responsibilities reducing the human error from the game. Bring in a ruling that gives the attacking player the benefit of doubt so the offside rule can go back in time as while it was never perfect it sure was less controversial than it is now. Let players defend again knowing an unintentional handball will not be penalised and diving should be an automatic yellow whether it be an attacker looking to claim a penalty or a defender falling over when he's allowed himself to be crowded into a corner with no where to go. Free flowing.... Surely that's the goal of the game and those that run it rather than watching an official ruin the possibility of a good game.

There's a bit of a narrative about this posted by others as well.

It's not true.

When Taylor was dropped down to the Championship, with no VAR, he was just as shit.

Anytime VAR reviews a situation, VAR has to be advised as to what the call is on the pitch. Either by the Ref or Assistant. Then VAR can review to confirm or find a "clear and obvious" error.

[Barneylfc∗]

Clear and obvious is a pile of shite. Wasn't the challenge on Gomez v Spurs deemed fine because it wasn't clear and obvious when quite clearly and obviously the ref missed the fact that Gomez was cleaned out and it should've been a penalty?

[coolbyrne]

The Premier League interpretation seems better than UEFA's as it has additional caveats that don't seem to apply in European competitions:
- The arm has to be in an "unnatural position" e.g. Michael Keane running along with his arm stretched out in front of him
- A deflection onto the arm rules out the handball in most cases
There are, as always, some issues with how the law is applied by different officials but I think it's a pretty good starting point.

I don't think either of the penalties last night would have been given in the Premier League.  Ross Barkley, with his back to the ball, blocking Van Dijk's header with his arm is comparable to the penalty given to Man U.  Copenhagen's I'm less sure on as Maguire is a very handsy defender in general and his arms were only outstretched because he was trying to impede the forward (debatable if that's a "natural position").

I agree with your general point though.  I've only refereed kids games - where the most common handball is a kid getting scared and almost catching the ball - but when I used to play almost every handball shout was rejected with a "ball to hand" response.  In elite football though too many teams and players are shithouses that would exploit such a simplistic rule which I believe is why we have quite convoluted rules.

That Lerager handball in particular was mindboggling. He's in a tussle with Maguire and another United player, he and Maguire jump at the same time requiring arms to go out and up, Maguire heads the ball onto Leragers' arm (which is about 10 inches away) and that's a handball?

I'm also not keen on VAR involving itself on calls the refs don't make. So going back to look at that Rashford foul- whether it's a red or not- doesn't sit right with me, and is one of the reasons the games have lost their fluidity. If the ref misses the call, that's unfortunate, but let the refs run the game instead of having a Big Brother in the box to pick out every incident.

[Ghost Town]

The biggest way VAR is fucking the game may be the handball rule leading to far too many penalties. When I used to ref games there'd be handballs in the box all the time because no one at our level was a big enough dork to defend with their hands behind the back. I think I only ever once gave a penalty for it, for a goal line "save". There was probably always a hint of that even at the top level... "yeah, it clipped his hand but come on, he's near the edge of the box, the ball was travelling fast and it didn't really make a difference". But thanks to the technology the refs are under pressure to give penalties for the most trivial arm brushes. It's ridiculous the proportion of goals being scored this way. If every slight touch is being caught on camera, maybe it's time to make it an indirect free kick offence except for the most obviously intentional blocks.

I agree with this and have been saying so for ages, usually with the footballing conservatives disagreeing with me.

Penalties are too easily won; they should be won only in the more egregious cases, when a goal or very clear goal-scoring chance has been denied by a foul or handball or whatever. Otherwise it should be some other remedy.

Let it be a direct free kick, maybe with more advantage to the attackers in some eay (no wall?) if you feel that being 'in the area' should count as profferring more advantage. But a penalty, an 80%+ chance of a goal just because the ball brushes someone's arm far from the goal with no real disadvantage to the attackers resulting, no clear goal-scoring chance being prevented. That's too harsh a consequence.

[Bullet500]

No he's a bellend, the time for him to make comments was to back Klopp when he called it out, instead he went the other way the hypocrite budget Pep.

The real embarrassment is Arteta having a meltdown at the Newcastle incidents and then only a few weeks ago telling us to move on after the referee's/VAR corruption after the Diaz goal. I'd have a degree of sympathy for him if he'd backed us up back he went out of his way to be a cnut about it so.....

Sounds like it

"I don’t know. It’s something that we don’t have a say on, we don’t manage," Arteta said on October 6 when asked about if certain referees shouldn't take charge of matches involving certain clubs.

“I think they are trying to make the best decisions, they are trying to protect the game, they are trying to get as much support and be ruthless when they need to be.

"At some point as well we need to give support and understand that mistakes happen. We’ve made mistakes as well and if the pressure is so much then it’s very difficult to manage."

Not..

Here is what he also said:

"For sure, you know at the end you want to get what you deserve. You want to minimise errors that you cannot control away from the work and the job that you do on a daily basis."

"Everybody is trying to have a really clean and honest game but in the end you have to earn the right to win it and play in the conditions that the rules allow. When that doesn’t happen it’s extremely frustrating."

[DelTrotter]

It's completely destroyed this sport.

[TheShanklyGates]

Football is absolutely fucked.

[tubby]

Can't wait to get some of these amazing European refs over here.

[Chakan]

That was like 7 phases ago!

This is so bad.

[Elzar]

You can now be offside with a part of the body you can’t play the ball with then. Great stuff!

[swoopy]

Absolutely shit

[jillcwhomever]

Fucking outrageous done again.

[Clint Eastwood]

I thought it had to be in the same phase? That's so weird.

[Samie]

Denied a fuckin' goal like that. Shambles. 

[PIPA23]

fucking hell...

refs are a joke these days

[jillcwhomever]

I thought it had to be in the same phase? That's so weird.

It does, it makes no sense at all.

[Tonyh8su]

A fucking absolute shambles. Not only are the rules not applied, he fucking GIVES the goal then goes back.

[Knight]

Someone give us the actual rule.

[Dench57]

 

[Copenred]

This shit is ruining the game

[Red_Mist]

Needs a massive rethink and reset this now. Gone beyond a joke. Completely fuckin ruining the game of football.

[macmanamanaman]

Illegal decision. 
The VAR doesn't know the handball rules.

[GreatEx]

Is the rule about only penalising handball by the goal scorer unique to the PL, or are we just getting the customised LFC experience?

[jillcwhomever]

I don't ever recall this happening before, it's like they are making the rules up as they go along.

[Ray K]

Throw them off a tall building. Every last one of them. All worthless jobworths who don't even understand the job they're supposed to be doing.

[Xabisfeet]

VAR isn't improving football.

It will never improve football.

Unfortunately, the Genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back

[classycarra]

the arguments i used to have in this thread with the people convinced VAR would improve things all seem very long ago now. even the most zealously keen supporters of the idea seem done with it. it's been everything feared and worse.

i'd take no VAR except goal line technology in a heartbeat now. or including offsides if they insisted. whole game is so tepid now, hard to even celebrate goals these days

[jillcwhomever]

Throw them off a tall building. Every last one of them. All worthless jobworths who don't even understand the job they're supposed to be doing.

It's like they want to be the stars rather than the players, we have the power to take all the headlines!

[Fromola]

the arguments i used to have in this thread with the people convinced VAR would improve things all seem very long ago now. even the most zealously keen supporters of the idea seem done with it. it's been everything feared and worse.

i'd take no VAR except goal line technology in a heartbeat now. or including offsides if they insisted. whole game is so tepid now, hard to even celebrate goals these days

VAR is a shit idea, badly executed.

They should only use technology that can work (goalline tech, automated offsides/AI in the future).