Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[oldfordie]

Unfortunately, those who need to see and understand that will do neither.

Although there are some IRL people I will take great pleasure in telling 'I told you so', there could be 10,000 of them and it would never be enough to make up for how I feel about the UK leaving the EU, Customs Union and Single Market. I say this as someone who lives in the US and has little to intention of living in the UK again. It seems that the UK (on the whole) is sleepwalking into this. Where are the opposing political voices? Why did the masses overwhelmingly vote for the Tories and Labour in the recent GE? -Whose leadership are, as Adam Posen correctly pointed out, as decidedly anti-EU and pro-Brexit as the Tories (though they generally deny (or lie about) this).

My formative years were under the Thatcher Government. But for all Thatcher's faults (I loathed her), she was not stupid and would not have entertained something like this. I never thought I'd see Britain go through a similarly terrible Government again. I was wrong: this is not just similar, it so much worse.

Ignorance is bliss, why should they watch videos on Brexit while it's already been decided. were leaving and that's it. the EU need us more than we need them so everything's going to be fine. the old saying has never been so true, you can ignore politics but politics won't ignore you.
I don't place all the blame on this government, I place the blame on Parliament, they've let this country down badly. who will people blame for a disastrous brexit?
Many will blame the Torys but the majority will just blame politicians, the right f....up badly and the left supported them.

[lamad]

Sobering analysis:

https://www.facebook.com/PIIEonline/videos/1818836628146435/

Thanks for that link, great listening to this guy's very precise without bullshitting prose. And sobering indeed although at the end of the day not that surprising to anybody with half a brain.

And afterwards I went and read the Guardian piece on the leaked immigration paper, and I am fuming. If this is what the UK government wants to do to EU citizens and what makes Leave voters cheer, then go fuck yourselves. Sorry to be so blunt and this is NOT directed at folks who are mostly pro EU and those who voted Remain (i.e. many on here). It is directed at your fucking government and everybody else who has given in to the right wing shitters and at a parliament that just rolled over.

If I was a highly skilled worker with the choice between various places and countries to go to in Europe, the UK would have just dropped to the bottom of my list.
And to top it off they want to see my passport instead of my identity card when I come over for a fucking holiday? Again, go fuck yourselves.
I was in Liverpool for ten days this summer and I plan to visit friends in London in October. After that who knows when I will be back...
Also my plans/dreams of maybe spending my retirement age (including my money) somewhere in Britain are becoming less likely with each passing day. I guess I have to start looking at nice places in maybe Austria, France or Spain. For the latter I would need to brush up on my Spanish or French but that'd be doable.

Ever since Brexit I have veered between feeling speechless, sad or mad, but right now being mad at this Brexit mess is my foremost emotion.
 

[killer-heels]

The Government has approached the FTSE 100 firms asking them to sign a letter supporting their Brexit strategy.

http://www.cityam.com/271498/downing-street-asks-ftse-100-firms-sign-letter-backing

[Libertine]

From IPPR's Commission on Economic Justice.

And this is before the reality of Brexit hits.....

[Jiminy Cricket]

The Government has approached the FTSE 100 firms asking them to sign a letter supporting their Brexit strategy.

http://www.cityam.com/271498/downing-street-asks-ftse-100-firms-sign-letter-backing

The full text can be read here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/full-text-theresa-may-brexit-speech-global-britain-eu-european-union-latest-a7531361.html

Scrub that - wrong link.

I'm still reading through it. Yes, I'm sure the recipients are saying to themselves and between each other: 'oh, that's OK then'. Fucking Toytown of a government.

[ShakaHislop]

Leaked documents outlining possible immigration plans for EU nationals post Brexit.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

Plans include offering 'low skilled' immigrant workers a maximum stay of 2 years whilst higher skilled immigrants get 3-5 years.

Plans to restrict EU immigration by giving “preference in the job market to resident workers”. The government could also restrict EU nationals from seeking work, reduce the opportunities for workers to settle in the UK long-term, and limit the number of EU citizens able to come to the UK to do low-skilled work.

I thought the Tories loved the free market?

[Zeb]

Thanks for that link, great listening to this guy's very precise without bullshitting prose. And sobering indeed although at the end of the day not that surprising to anybody with half a brain.

And afterwards I went and read the Guardian piece on the leaked immigration paper, and I am fuming. If this is what the UK government wants to do to EU citizens and what makes Leave voters cheer, then go fuck yourselves. Sorry to be so blunt and this is NOT directed at folks who are mostly pro EU and those who voted Remain (i.e. many on here). It is directed at your fucking government and everybody else who has given in to the right wing shitters and at a parliament that just rolled over.

If I was a highly skilled worker with the choice between various places and countries to go to in Europe, the UK would have just dropped to the bottom of my list.
And to top it off they want to see my passport instead of my identity card when I come over for a fucking holiday? Again, go fuck yourselves.
I was in Liverpool for ten days this summer and I plan to visit friends in London in October. After that who knows when I will be back...
Also my plans/dreams of maybe spending my retirement age (including my money) somewhere in Britain are becoming less likely with each passing day. I guess I have to start looking at nice places in maybe Austria, France or Spain. For the latter I would need to brush up on my Spanish or French but that'd be doable.

Ever since Brexit I have veered between feeling speechless, sad or mad, but right now being mad at this Brexit mess is my foremost emotion.
 

The current PM is the Home Secretary who thought creating a campaign of flyers, posters, and vans with billboards all saying "Go Home" was worth a try. (Guardian) She's got this idea that 'creating a hostile environment' for illegal immigrants will somehow not also hit people with every right to be here. (Guardian).  So, yeah, I suspect that your reaction will be shared by many others. May's already played a part in stoking it to where it is now, which is fucking grim enough, but I've no idea how she expects people to want to live here for just a couple of years at a time, with no security to residence beyond that. And that within a system which is intended to be difficult and shitty to navigate your way through and live under. They're off their fucking trolleys - I suspect the closest some of them get to an immigrant worker is their au pair or nanny and they make policy based on that experience - but that's an old song in these parts.

[thejbs]

Part of me hopes that the leak came from the Tories.  That it's some kind of plan to make it seem like they want all these pandering immigration controls when really they don't.  So when a soft Brexit happens, they can turn to the UKIP leaning base and say 'well, we tried, but those stinking liberals and the tyrants in Brussels got their way.'

[Red-Soldier]

Where did you source that from?

[oldfordie]

Looks like we have a chance to have a say on the final deal,massive bill and Labour should support it, we shall see.

A Labour MP has presented a Bill to the Commons demanding a second Brexit referendum.

The backbench Bill calls for voters to get the final say on a Brexit deal, and Labour MP Geraint Davies says he has cross-party support for his bid to secure a referendum on any EU exit package.
Voters would be given the chance to remain in the EU if they did not agree with the Brexit deal under the move.Mr Davies said: "My Bill aims to make sure that people get what they voted for.
"The negotiated exit package should reasonably represent what the British public voted for in 2016. However this is threatened by the Government's repeated failure to make any progress in exit negotiations, which puts our national future at risk of a bad deal.
"Therefore the British people have the right to a final say on the exit package, or to stay in the EU if a deal fails to meet what people want and reasonably expect.
"My Bill is presented the day before the second reading of Theresa May's Great Repeal Bill.
"There is growing momentum from across the political spectrum to challenge May's vision of a hard Brexit, and the cross-party support for my Bill illustrates that
"The British people deserve a final say on the Government's disastrous exit negotiations, and we will continue to fight for that in Parliament."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-geraint-davies-presents-bill-demanding-second-brexit-referendum-a3628576.html

[Libertine]

Where did you source that from?

IPPR report as I said.

Available here: https://www.ippr.org/research/publications/cej-time-for-change

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/905445540162306051

[Jiminy Cricket]

Of course, the link in my last post was wrong. I've removed it. Sorry for any confusion I caused.

[Party Phil]

The full text can be read here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/full-text-theresa-may-brexit-speech-global-britain-eu-european-union-latest-a7531361.html

Scrub that - wrong link.

I'm still reading through it. Yes, I'm sure the recipients are saying to themselves and between each other: 'oh, that's OK then'. Fucking Toytown of a government.

"June the 23rd was not the moment Britain chose to step back from the world. It was the moment we chose to build a truly Global Britain."

How can she possibly believe this? Is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks that for most leave voters Brexit was about becoming more open and globalised and not the complete opposite?

Even if remainers are fully against the whole mess, how can the rabid Mail reading xenophobic masses accept these kind of statements from the PM that contradict completely their way of thinking?

[killer-heels]

"June the 23rd was not the moment Britain chose to step back from the world. It was the moment we chose to build a truly Global Britain."

How can she possibly believe this? Is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks that for most leave voters Brexit was about becoming more open and globalised and not the complete opposite?

Even if remainers are fully against the whole mess, how can the rabid Mail reading xenophobic masses accept these kind of statements from the PM that contradict completely their way of thinking?

There is no point even discussing what she says anymore even though she is PM. Even the Daily Mailer's know that May is all rhetoric.

[killer-heels]

Looks like we have a chance to have a say on the final deal,massive bill and Labour should support it, we shall see.

A Labour MP has presented a Bill to the Commons demanding a second Brexit referendum.

The backbench Bill calls for voters to get the final say on a Brexit deal, and Labour MP Geraint Davies says he has cross-party support for his bid to secure a referendum on any EU exit package.
Voters would be given the chance to remain in the EU if they did not agree with the Brexit deal under the move.Mr Davies said: "My Bill aims to make sure that people get what they voted for.
"The negotiated exit package should reasonably represent what the British public voted for in 2016. However this is threatened by the Government's repeated failure to make any progress in exit negotiations, which puts our national future at risk of a bad deal.
"Therefore the British people have the right to a final say on the exit package, or to stay in the EU if a deal fails to meet what people want and reasonably expect.
"My Bill is presented the day before the second reading of Theresa May's Great Repeal Bill.
"There is growing momentum from across the political spectrum to challenge May's vision of a hard Brexit, and the cross-party support for my Bill illustrates that
"The British people deserve a final say on the Government's disastrous exit negotiations, and we will continue to fight for that in Parliament."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-geraint-davies-presents-bill-demanding-second-brexit-referendum-a3628576.html

It wont get a majority, even if Labour vote for it.

[Alan_X]

"June the 23rd was not the moment Britain chose to step back from the world. It was the moment we chose to build a truly Global Britain."

How can she possibly believe this? Is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks that for most leave voters Brexit was about becoming more open and globalised and not the complete opposite?

Even if remainers are fully against the whole mess, how can the rabid Mail reading xenophobic masses accept these kind of statements from the PM that contradict completely their way of thinking?

It's easy - for them a 'truly Global Britain' is a return to the Days of Empire not Corporate Globalisation. It's the kind of deluded little Englander mentality that thinks Britain should be ruling the world again and the only thing that's holding us back is Brussels.

[killer-heels]

I thought the Tories loved the free market?

May isnt a classic Tory.

[Zeb]

It's easy - for them a 'truly Global Britain' is a return to the Days of Empire not Corporate Globalisation. It's the kind of deluded little Englander mentality that thinks Britain should be ruling the world again and the only thing that's holding us back is Brussels.

Guess the original manifesto...

With regard to Europe, a [Tory] government will:

– Resolutely oppose the single European currency;

– Support the overwhelming majority of the British people in their desire to keep the Pound and our traditional weights and measures.

At the same time, a [Tory] government will strive for the best possible relationship with our European neighbours. The nations of Europe should be free to trade and cooperate whenever it is mutually beneficial without being forced into a straightjacket of political and economic unification — which is neither desirable nor beneficial, ultimately practically unfeasible, and guaranteed to create conflict rather than avoid it.

Accordingly, a [Tory] government will withdraw from the European Union.

In place of the EU, a [Tory] government will aim towards greater national self-sufficiency, and work to restore Britain’s family and trading ties with Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and to trade with the rest of the world as it suits us.

Following our withdrawal from the EU, the [Tory] government will use the Ł43 million per day net contribution Britain at present makes to the European Union to fund many far more useful projects at home.

Utterly nonsensical wishlist, roundly (and rightly) ridiculed at the time. Now current UK government policy. Well, not moving back to imperial measures. Yet.

(Replace [Tory] with BNP, the BNP 2010 General Election Manifesto)

[Red-Soldier]

IPPR report as I said.

Available here: https://www.ippr.org/research/publications/cej-time-for-change

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/905445540162306051

I know, but I was after the full report and couldn't find it.

Thanks.

[oldfordie]

It wont get a majority, even if Labour vote for it.

Why not? this is getting cross bench support so would only take a few Torys to rebel.
The problem is will the Labour leadership support it and how many Labour MPs would abstain or vote against the bill.
 Brexit won't be a success and 3 line whipping Labour MPs to vote to trig art 50 then refusing to give voters a say when they know a final deal is going to be a disaster will not be forgotten.

[ShakaHislop]

Why not? this is getting cross bench support so would only take a few Torys to rebel.
The problem is will the Labour leadership support it and how many Labour MPs would abstain or vote against the bill.
 Brexit won't be a success and 3 line whipping Labour MPs to vote to trig art 50 then refusing to give voters a say when they know a final deal is going to be a disaster will not be forgotten.

Only 33 MPs voted for the Lib Dem 2nd referendum amendment to the Article 50 bill.

https://goo.gl/vj7U9n

Even if you pin hope on there now being no Tory majority, there's going to have be one hell of a turnaround to get this passed, and Labour doesn't seem any keener on the 2nd ref idea now than it did back then. I'm glad that Geraint Davies is trying but I'm not optimistic.

[TheShanklyGates]

Only 33 MPs voted for the Lib Dem 2nd referendum amendment to the Article 50 bill.

https://goo.gl/vj7U9n

Even if you pin hope on there now being no Tory majority, there's going to have be one hell of a turnaround to get this passed, and Labour doesn't seem any keener on the 2nd ref idea now than it did back then. I'm glad that Geraint Davies is trying but I'm not optimistic.

Parliament have blown literally every chance so far to stop or even mitigate the shambles that is Brexit, I have no reason to think that this will be any different.

[west_london_red]

The Government has approached the FTSE 100 firms asking them to sign a letter supporting their Brexit strategy.

http://www.cityam.com/271498/downing-street-asks-ftse-100-firms-sign-letter-backing

Unfortunately for the government neither Timpsons or Weatherspoons are in the FTSE100

[killer-heels]

Why not? this is getting cross bench support so would only take a few Torys to rebel.
The problem is will the Labour leadership support it and how many Labour MPs would abstain or vote against the bill.
 Brexit won't be a success and 3 line whipping Labour MPs to vote to trig art 50 then refusing to give voters a say when they know a final deal is going to be a disaster will not be forgotten.

It will need around 20-30 people to defect/vote against the Brexit bill. Its not happening.

[oldfordie]

Only 33 MPs voted for the Lib Dem 2nd referendum amendment to the Article 50 bill.

https://goo.gl/vj7U9n

Even if you pin hope on there now being no Tory majority, there's going to have be one hell of a turnaround to get this passed, and Labour doesn't seem any keener on the 2nd ref idea now than it did back then. I'm glad that Geraint Davies is trying but I'm not optimistic.

Am not optimistic either but the situation has changed over the last 7 months, we've moved away from the fantasy Brexit that voters were promised. if we now know voters are not going to get the Brexit they voted for then our MPs should be fighting to give us a say on whether the Tory or Labour Brexit is acceptable. another referendum on a final deal is the only way to settle the Brexit argument.
A soft Brexit will infuriate hard leave supporters but I doubt if there will be a serious political backlash.
A disastrous Brexit will bring about a new party to challenge the 2 party system.

[Rhi]

Sobering analysis:

https://www.facebook.com/PIIEonline/videos/1818836628146435/

*sigh*

[Red-Soldier]

Parliament have blown literally every chance so far to stop or even mitigate the shambles that is Brexit, I have no reason to think that this will be any different.

The smaller parties have tried, howevver, they just don't have the numbers.

The main "opposition" have been a f*cking disgrace!

[TheShanklyGates]

The smaller parties have tried, howevver, they just don't have the numbers.

The main "opposition" have been a f*cking disgrace!

Agreed. Unfortunately even if Labour do grow a spine we still need a good number of Tories to put country ahead of party and I reckon most of them would rather see the country burn than vote with Corbyn's Labour.

[oldfordie]

It's not all about getting the bill passed, the bill will be debated, the Torys will obviously argue the will of the people argument, Labour can now argue the will of the people has been ignored. it's about challenging the Torys right to impose their Brexit on the country, this hasn't happened once since the day of the referendum.
 Corbyns said the fight starts now, what does this exactly mean if it's not about stopping this Tory Brexit, if Corbyn feels we have to respect the result of the referendum then why is he saying he will oppose this Tory Brexit, how come he feels it's ok for the Labour party to do this but not voters themselves.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The pound hits a record low

[Trada]

They were talking to a man on Sky News and he was saying they can do all the talking and when it comes to the vote in the EU Parliament a small country could veto it over something like their national cheese or wine isn't being given product protection in the deal.

So many hidden landmines things people didn't even think would be a problem.

[killer-heels]

They were talking to a man on Sky News and he was saying they can do all the talking and when it comes to the vote in the EU Parliament a small country could veto it over something like their national cheese or wine isn't being given product protection in the deal.

So many hidden landmines things people didn't even think would be a problem.

That is on the assumption Britain gets offered a good deal. I think its very, very unlikely that Britain will get a good deal at all.

If anything, you wonder whether there will be veto's by some nations who think Britain is being punished? So some of the smaller countries who have good trade links, would they be willing to break that for the EU? I think they will but I think that sort of appeal is more likely than countries appealing on the basis that Britain is getting off lightly.

[oldfordie]

AFAIK, Our exit deal only needs the approval of 20 of the 27 EU countrys.
Our future deal needs not only the approval of all EU countrys it will also need to be passed by a majority vote by the 600 +MEPs. so much for the EU not being democratic.

[Libertine]

[killer-heels]

Is that data available for the same period last year and the year before?

[Libertine]

Is that data available for the same period last year and the year before?

Probably. The database is a bit of a maze though.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/data/database

[Alan_X]

I was at the opening of a new department store we designed last night and got chatting to a man and his wife. Both voted leave which didn't surprise me in the least but he was saying his business was not doing well because of exchange rates etc. It was clear that he was unsure whether it had been the right thing to do but said it would probably work out in the end. His wife just muttered some bollocks about civil servants.

It's just anecdotal of course but the worry is that Leave voters have too much emotional investment and they've bought into the Europhobic nonsense hook line and sinker. The question is whether they would double down if there was a second referendum or take the opportunity to make the sensible decision.

[Libertine]

From Vince:

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Nice to see the House full to brimming for this most important of debates.

They all need culling.

[stara]

UK saved us Europeans once again. Day after day, the UK negotiator team is doing a great job in communicating the benefits of being a EU-member. Last week, it was ECJ and this week it is EIB, science and research. So, thanks.