Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[oldfordie]

No wonder leave campaigners fear another referendum, they know their campaign would be a farce. they know they would loose badly.

A QUARTER of people who voted Brexit believe they were duped by Leave campaign

Shocking new research has revealed that a quarter of people who voted for Brexit – the equivalent of over 4.3 million people – believe they were duped by the Leave campaign.
With several promises outlined as part of the campaign since rubbished following the vote many Leave voters unsurprisingly feel they were lied to by prominent campaigners such as Nigel Frottage, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove.
But even though the politicians peddled blatant fabrications in order to settle Britain’s divorce with Europe, many of the aforementioned people now occupy senior roles in government rather than getting their comeuppance.
Some 26 per cent of people who voted to leave the European Union said the campaign for Brexit was either “mostly” or “completely” misleading, according to Opinium.
That compares with around 16 per cent of Remain voters who said that campaign was “mostly” or “completely” misleading.
One in five Leave voters said they no longer believed that the contribution given by the UK to the EU – estimated to be £350m – would be given to the NHS after Brexit, having believed it when they voted. Some 10 per cent of Remain voters said the same.
Meanwhile, seven per cent of Leave voters said they would swap their vote if there were another referendum, while one per cent said they would not vote.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/quarter-people-voted-brexit-believe-duped-leave-campaign/21/08/amp/

[redbyrdz]

More shocking is that 80% still believe the NHS will get £350m from the UK government.

[ShakaHislop]

More shocking is that 80% still believe the NHS will get £350m from the UK government.

It's 24% of Leave voters who still believe that will happen, according to the survey. 14% who believed the claim at the time and still think it will happen, and 10% who didn't believe it at the time but now think it will happen (why?!).

http://opinium.co.uk/political-polling-15th-august-2017/
http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/VI-15-08-2017.xls

I think it's also interesting that while 76% of Remain voters feel the Leave campaign was either completely, or mostly misleading, only (comparatively speaking) 57% of Leave voters feel the Remain campaign was either completely, or mostly misleading.

[BobOnATank]

Look at this greedy bastard: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41265718 So Mr Dyson, who already moved all his jobs to India because even with the WTO tariffs it made him more money and now he prays the UK does the same so he'll gain another 10% at least profit from the loss of the EU trade barrier, nothing to be gained for anyone else of course but at least he only has to negotiate with his mates in parliament rather than a more difficult EU who have slightly more morals.

And of course ringo the non-domiciled tax dodger who wants the UK to leave the EU http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41266184/ringo-starr-says-people-voted-for-brexit-so-get-on-with-it but of course didn't vote nor lives anywhere near the UK. BBC at its best today......

[ShakaHislop]

UK could need '5,000 more customs officials after Brexit'

The head of the UK tax agency has said Britain could need up to 5,000 extra staff to handle customs and border checks after Brexit.

HMRC boss John Thompson also said a new customs arrangement with the EU could cost as much as £800m and take seven years to implement.

Speaking before the Treasury Committee, he said HMRC did not have the money at this point to make the changes.

But he said there had been "extensive conversations" with the Treasury.

Mr Thompson said HMRC was investigating the "business case" for a new Singapore-style system, which would allow firms to get their tax and border checks done in one place.

This would bring together 26 different organisations into a "single window", and make trade "much smoother".

However, he said the undertaking would be a "mega project".

"We need to be transparent with you... You need to be thinking about that as a project that costs somewhere between £500m and £800m," he told MPs.

"It would take five to seven years to implement," he said.

Avoiding queues

Another HMRC official told the MPs the agency would have to deal with an additional 130,000 new companies after Brexit.

Jim Harra, director general of customer strategy, said these would be firms that import and export within the EU but do not currently come into contact with British customs.

"Based on a crude extrapolation", he said this would increase customs declarations fivefold, along with staff workload.

"If your customs declarations are multiplied fivefold, if you multiplied your resources fivefold, what would that come out at.

"It would come out at an extra three to 5,000 people," he said.

Last month the government revealed its "future partnership paper", which laid out two potential options for customs arrangements after Brexit.

One option would be a new customs partnership with the EU, which would do away with a customs border altogether.

The other would see the UK negotiate agreements with the EU to reduce trade barriers and harness technology to avoid long queues at ports.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41275324

So we're now at around £60.8b for the cost of Brexit before we even officially depart.

[ShakaHislop]

UK and EU firms to urge faster Brexit deal

Business leaders who employ around one million workers in the UK and EU will sign a letter this weekend, imploring both sides of the Brexit negotiations to get a move on.

A draft of the letter, seen by the BBC, urges negotiators to clarify the rights of UK and EU citizens working abroad by October.

It also calls for real progress towards future arrangements by the end of 2017.

The leaders said a deal was imperative to safeguard jobs and investment.

The letter was drawn up by trade group the CBI and circulated to top business leaders.

It is expected to draw more support than a UK government text that asked Britain's biggest businesses to endorse the government's approach to Brexit negotiations.

'Written for business'

There was widespread reluctance from FTSE 100 bosses to support a strategy that many thought lacked clarity.

One FTSE 100 chairman told the BBC: "I think this is a much better letter than the one the government tried to circulate - it's written for business by business."

However, other business leaders contacted by the BBC - while broadly supportive - were cautious about the impact that a letter from business leaders would have.

"I'm still not sure there is much value in letters like this," one told me.

After an election campaign that saw the Conservative Party distance itself from big business, bosses have reported a thawing in relations with government.

Some of the UK's top business leaders will gather tonight at the government retreat in Chevening to discuss the process of withdrawal from the EU and future trading relationships.

I'm told that neither the CBI, who organised this collective letter, nor other business lobbying groups are invited.

Draft text of the CBI's letter:

"We represent businesses of all sizes, sectors and regions of the UK and employ nearly one million people in the UK and EU.

"We are committed to helping secure a successful new economic partnership between the UK and the EU, based on the principles of barrier-free trade. We welcome the strengthened collaboration between business and government to achieve this. This must now lead to progress.

"Our businesses need to make decisions now about investment and employment that will affect economic growth and jobs in the future. Continuing uncertainty will adversely affect communities, employees, firms and our nations in the future.

"Businesses across the EU and UK are clear: being able to plan for a transition of up to three years that avoids a cliff edge is critical for our collective prosperity.

"We are therefore writing to urge both sides to be pragmatic and determined to move to the next stage of the negotiations. Until transitional arrangements can be agreed and trade discussed the risk of 'no deal' remains real and has to be planned for, with inevitable consequences for jobs and growth on both sides."

"We ask you to ensure that substantive progress is achieved during the upcoming negotiations. Only this will give certainty on the rights of EU and UK citizens working abroad and enable discussion of transitional arrangements in October and trade, by the end of the year.

"Our shared interests vastly outweigh our differences, and we stand ready to help in any way we can to secure a successful outcome for the people and communities of the UK and the EU."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41273215

[ShakaHislop]

We welcome the strengthened collaboration between business and government to achieve this.

So strong that the CBI isn't even invited to all of the Brexit-related meetings.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Burberry's Christopher Bailey sees 'enormous' trade potential

yet...

Brexit, and changes in the industry combined with changing consumer behaviour, have created uncertainty for Burberry, Mr Bailey said, resulting in the suspension of a planned £50m investment in Leeds.

Burberry already has two manufacturing sites in Yorkshire, where its trench coats are made, but shortly following the Brexit vote last year the company said it was putting on hold the decision over whether to continue with the new development.

"Since we made that decision and bought that land a lot of things have changed in the world and as any responsible organisation, when you have these big shifts you need to reflect," said Mr Bailey.

"We are absolutely committed to keeping our manufacturing in this country with our factories in Yorkshire, but with the new site we're just taking a moment to make sure we understand the ramifications."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41270299

[SP]

Also:

Mr Bailey was chief executive of Burberry until July.

He returned to a more creative role, handing the chief executive reins to Marco Gobetti.

Tried the business side of things. Did not like it, so hid back with the creatives.

[cdav]

Brexit: Burberry's Christopher Bailey sees 'enormous' trade potential

yet...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41270299

With these views- I've always wondered are these their individual views or that of the company (on behalf of all stakeholders- shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, etc)? I have a feeling it is the former.

I also see Boris is running with the £350m a week for the NHS again- no one will believe that unless he puts it on the side of a bus!

[Bunter]

A race to the bottom suits these sort of fellas, all about turning a bigger profit regardless of the wider cost. Like Dyson gives a shit about the welfare and future prospects of Britain if manages to cut a few extra corners.

As was clear from the beginning, immigration was just the front to get the plebs hooked in with a dollop of patriotism thrown in for good measure. It always was about letting the wealthy elites squeeze more cash out of the country with impunity.

[oldfordie]

With these views- I've always wondered are these their individual views or that of the company (on behalf of all stakeholders- shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, etc)? I have a feeling it is the former.

I also see Boris is running with the £350m a week for the NHS again- no one will believe that unless he puts it on the side of a bus!

See he's still dreaming of becoming PM. lost all credibility, of course the NHS will get the £350 mill a week, in the distant future,clever move though, the leave campaign will lap it up even though they know it's a load of rubbish. how about all the EU subsidies he promised the likes of Cornwall. how about the tariff free access to the SM he said the EU will be forced to give us.

[killer-heels]

Boris' article was so much a leadership bid. May has a speech next week where she will be positive about the EU and the conference season starts so he is getting his bid in now.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

American twat.

[ShakaHislop]

Brexit: Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson accused of 'misusing' statistics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41301049

Mr Johnson has replied to Sir David - accusing him of "wilful distortion".

Is this the Boris version of "fake news"?

[Libertine]

Brexit 'chaos' as top official Oliver Robbins quits after one year in the job

Permanent Secretary at DExEU moves to co-ordinating role at Downing Street

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-chaos-as-top-official-oliver-robbins-quits-after-one-year-in-the-job-a3637166.html


Shocked.....

[oldfordie]

Brexit means Brexit. we have a plan and were keeping it close to our chest.
Realty, there asking the EU to come up with solutions. there asking the Labour party to come up with solutions, there asking the car industry to come up with solutions. there a disgrace,they haven't got a clue what to do.

Government faces Brexit revolt from unhappy carmakers over customs
Manufacturers are challenging ministers over the lack of clarity on future trade arrangements, Sky News' Brexit Forensics finds.
The Government faces a growing revolt from carmakers in Britain unhappy at the slow pace of clarity over post-Brexit customs arrangements crucial to their business model.
Sky News has been shown internal industry memos, circulating at the Frankfurt Motor Show, expressing exasperation at the state of preparedness for changes to customs - which could come in in March 2019 and for which immediate investment and staffing is required.
A recent meeting with Government was described as "disillusioning" because of a "lack of detailed information and blocking of our questions".
Officials were described as having "no concrete idea of how to apply [customs] proposals".

Instead of communicating detailed proposals, the meeting was taken as a "desperate attempt" to find out basic information and "get the industry to suggest solutions".

At a separate meeting, Jaguar Land Rover boss Ralf Speth was said to have had a "heated" exchange with the Prime Minister at a Number 10 round table over summer, imploring Theresa May to avoid a "no deal" Brexit and to immediately prepare a transition arrangement with the same customs and trading arrangements.
A senior Jaguar Land Rover executive told Sky News, as part of our Brexit Forensics investigation, that its recent investment in a massive facility in Slovakia has "become a hedge" against a post-Brexit deterioration in its trading conditions.
It's become a hedge by default - we will assess everything in the cold light of day," said group sales operations director Andy Gross.
Jaguar Land Rover is booming on global exports but played down the positive impact of a weak sterling or even the need for independent trade deals with its key markets in China and the US.

Between 40-50% of the company's parts come from the EU, including expensive gear boxes from Germany.

The industry has watched with trepidation as the Government has downgraded reassurances, especially as businesses perceive that it does not prioritise - and in some cases even understand - its "just-in-time" manufacturing methods and its pan-European "integrated supply chains".
At the Conservative Party conference a year ago, the Prime Minister promised British firms would maintain the ability to trade freely with and operate within the EU's single market.

Mrs May's words then shifted to "frictionless trade" - and are now "as frictionless as possible".

This weekend, Foreign Secretary Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson claimed "traditional carmakers would vanish" within the next 20 years, to be replaced by new manufacturers of "automated" cars.
Any friction in the free flow of parts and cars with Europe could have a severe impact on the competitiveness of UK car plants, which are routinely measured against their European counterparts, competing for production of new models within the same group.

   
http://news.sky.com/story/government-faces-brexit-revolt-from-unhappy-car-makers-over-customs-11041724

[Xabi Gerrard]

"All this 'if you jump off a cliff and spread your wings you'll find yourself flying into the blue yonder,' that's not a policy" - Ken Clarke on R4.

Sad that the best politician in this country right now is a Tory.

[Libertine]

[The Gulleysucker]

Pah, Experts.....Honestly, what do they know about it...It'll all be fine....

Sadly, few people out in the real world, especially the hands firmly over their ears and eyes committed Brexiteers, are ever going to bother reading that and even if they do glance at it, they'll dismiss it as scare mongering etc.

[Zeb]

Project fear.



(Carney speech yesterday.)

[Libertine]

From Rachel Sylvester in the Times. Beggars belief.....

[Peabee]

From Rachel Sylvester in the Times. Beggars belief.....

It begs the question of why Theresa May triggered A.50 in March and then decided on a GE.  I would have thought the sensible option would have been to delay A.50 until some sort of a coherent plan was in place.  David Allen Green, on Twitter, has outlined that we could have left the EU without triggering the article (put together by diplomats, not lawyers, and never intended to be used - ornamental).  We joined by Treaty, so we could have left by Treaty. 

The time pressure, on top of the complications of the process, is adding to the chaos and it's looking worse every month.   It's like one big squabble within the Conservative Party that is threatening to tear apart this country, while problems with the NHS, homelessness, etc, are being ignored. 

It's one big fucking mess.  We're a joke of a country at the moment and, possibly, for the foreseeable future.

[Red-Soldier]

From Rachel Sylvester in the Times. Beggars belief.....

Not surprised at all.

Most Tories consider politics as a game, it's just about getting one over on their chums / rivals.

[killer-heels]

From Rachel Sylvester in the Times. Beggars belief.....

That is not surprising when you look at who the Prime Minister is. Theresa May did virtually everything in her own head and in her own inner circle when there were big decisions. This is just a continuation.

The cabinet wouldn't agree to it anyway. If anything her position would be less extreme than those in the cabinet.

[redbyrdz]

It begs the question of why Theresa May triggered A.50 in March and then decided on a GE.  I would have thought the sensible option would have been to delay A.50 until some sort of a coherent plan was in place.  David Allen Green, on Twitter, has outlined that we could have left the EU without triggering the article (put together by diplomats, not lawyers, and never intended to be used - ornamental).  We joined by Treaty, so we could have left by Treaty. 

The time pressure, on top of the complications of the process, is adding to the chaos and it's looking worse every month.   It's like one big squabble within the Conservative Party that is threatening to tear apart this country, while problems with the NHS, homelessness, etc, are being ignored. 

It's one big fucking mess.  We're a joke of a country at the moment and, possibly, for the foreseeable future.

Obviously the logical thing to do would have been to work out all regulations, start nuilding new organisations for such things as customs, and once all EU structures have been dublicated nationally, leave. But the government did not do that, so in March 2019 the EU will shut the door and Britain will be fucked.

[oldfordie]

It begs the question of why Theresa May triggered A.50 in March and then decided on a GE.  I would have thought the sensible option would have been to delay A.50 until some sort of a coherent plan was in place.  David Allen Green, on Twitter, has outlined that we could have left the EU without triggering the article (put together by diplomats, not lawyers, and never intended to be used - ornamental).  We joined by Treaty, so we could have left by Treaty. 

The time pressure, on top of the complications of the process, is adding to the chaos and it's looking worse every month.   It's like one big squabble within the Conservative Party that is threatening to tear apart this country, while problems with the NHS, homelessness, etc, are being ignored. 

It's one big fucking mess.  We're a joke of a country at the moment and, possibly, for the foreseeable future.

I think people will debate that question for decades. the sensible thing to do is what Cameron suggested immediately after the referendum result. set up a Brexit dept to research all our options and the pros and cons of each option. how much each option would cost the country, all the problems each option will bring. we would then be in a far better position to plan for the future.
So why was Camerons plan forgotten? to the shame of the government and the Labour party right wing properganda won the day. problem with properganda is you have to nip it in the bud before people start believing it. nobody did fight the properganda. the properganda is still rife and the idiots are still lapping it up.
Watching QT the other night. Will Self made a comment about Davis,Johnson+Fox making us the laughing stock of the world.Julia Hartley-Brewer jumped on him and accused him of insulting the 52%.? ludicrous but still got loud cheers from the audience. we really should have stood up to s... like this last year.

[TepidT2O]

Well well

Bojo threatening to resign if May goes for the Swiss model of paid access to the single market.


Much as I don't have time for May, I suspect that would be the best deal we could hope for in this disaster area...

[ShakaHislop]

Well well

Bojo threatening to resign if May goes for the Swiss model of paid access to the single market.


Much as I don't have time for May, I suspect that would be the best deal we could hope for in this disaster area...

Hopefully the EU refuse.

[TepidT2O]

Hopefully the EU refuse.

I hope they don't...   not because I want to leave the EU, but because I don't want the country destroyed.  Leaving the EU seems inevitable as only the lib dems and tony Blair can be bothered to fight for staying in.

[oldfordie]

Well well

Bojo threatening to resign if May goes for the Swiss model of paid access to the single market.


Much as I don't have time for May, I suspect that would be the best deal we could hope for in this disaster area...

Think it's an awful deal.
Switzerland aren't in the customs union. they only have partial access to the SM but they accept FOM and make a smaller contribution to the SM.
Corbyn suggested this option a few weeks after the referendum.somebody must have clued him up on the facts as the following week he was arguing for the Norwegian option.

[TepidT2O]

Link here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/19/boris-johnson-will-resign-weekend-theresa-may-goes-against-brexit/

[TepidT2O]

Think it's an awful deal.
Switzerland aren't in the customs union. they only have partial access to the SM but they accept FOM and make a smaller contribution to the SM.

Awful ..but better than no access at all....

[Xabi Gerrard]

I hope they don't...   not because I want to leave the EU, but because I don't want the country destroyed.  Leaving the EU seems inevitable as only Ken Clarke can be bothered to fight for staying in, with a little bit of help from the lib dems and tony Blair.

Fixed that for you 

[TepidT2O]

Fixed that for you 

Yeah, forgot Ken Clarke...

There's so few who are even bothering to try...

[Elmo!]

I hope they don't...   not because I want to leave the EU, but because I don't want the country destroyed.  Leaving the EU seems inevitable as only the lib dems and tony Blair and the SNP can be bothered to fight for staying in.

Fixed that for you 

FTFY

[ShakaHislop]

I hope they don't...   not because I want to leave the EU, but because I don't want the country destroyed.  Leaving the EU seems inevitable as only the lib dems and tony Blair can be bothered to fight for staying in.

I think the EU narrowing our options could force Remain back onto the British political agenda.

As for Blair, I'm not enthusiastic about his vision for Britain's continued membership.

[Xabi Gerrard]

FTFY

No credit at all for Ken?

[TepidT2O]

I think the EU narrowing our options could force Remain back onto the British political agenda.

As for Blair, I'm not enthusiastic about his vision for Britain's continued membership.

Atleast it's A vision.. I'd like others but everyone else seems to have given up..

[oldfordie]

Awful ..but better than no access at all....

I understand the point your making and yes it is better than nothing but not the best option.
What makes this a better deal than the Norway deal. they also comply to these conditions but have full access to the SM.
It's also very revealing, it tells us exactly what the Torys priority on Brexit is, they don't mind accepting FOM or paying a EU contribution but they don't want us in the customs union. what they want is to get rid of all the EU regulations that protect us, they also want all those fantastic trade deals which will force big change on workers in this country.
Going to be interesting to see how they sell a deal like this to the leave supporters, I thought everyone voted to leave the SM.