Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[Knight]

Having some actual midfielders on the pitch really helped. Dom is an attacking midfielder  and Gapko a forward. Gapko in particular was useless. But Elliot and Jones both got on the ball and got a foot in off the ball.

[farawayred]

Band-aid midfield today. Did OK, but can do much better. Shows how much we need a good DM

[Phineus]

We have enough to best Bournemouth but need a senior DM in the team for Newcastle away.

I can see what system we’re trying to do, when it works I can see how dominant it’ll be.

But to keep doing it without a specialist DM and a LCB, too highwire of an act.

[DelTrotter]

It's on the verge of being top quality but we are still searching for that 1 player we've needed for a year now, hopefully he's finally here over the next few weeks. This manager and group of players deserve it.

[Knight]

A proper 6, Macallister, Dom/Jones/ Elliot is a genuinely good midfield. I still think we'll struggle defensively because there are question marks over 4 of the back 5 in one sense or other, but sorting the midfield would help.

[farawayred]

We have enough to best Bournemouth but need a senior DM in the team for Newcastle away.

I can see what system we’re trying to do, when it works I can see how dominant it’ll be.

But to keep doing it without a specialist DM and a LCB, too highwire of an act.

Wouldn't Thiago be back by then?

[Phineus]

Wouldn't Thiago be back by then?

We’re back to relying on Thiago been fit?

[farawayred]

We’re back to relying on Thiago been fit?

We're talking about one game, aren't we? For the season, fuck no!

[Clint Eastwood]

Klopp said in his post-match that our defensive issues did not have anything to do with the characteristics of the midfielders, and I get what he's saying to an extent - the press and the structure will always be the key. But then he goes on to say that Gakpo wasn't closing the half spaces. Feels like a contradiction to me. You need midfielders who want to defend and have that instinct to get back, especially in a system like ours. Gakpo doesn't have that. Look at Gallagher for example - not great on the ball but cut out so much. We don't really have many of those midfielders anymore.

I'm not yet giving up on Kone as a good-value player for depth.

[ThePoolMan]

Klopp said in his post-match that our defensive issues did not have anything to do with the characteristics of the midfielders, and I get what he's saying to an extent - the press and the structure will always be the key. But then he goes on to say that Gakpo wasn't closing the half spaces. Feels like a contradiction to me. You need midfielders who want to defend and have that instinct to get back, especially in a system like ours. Gakpo doesn't have that. Look at Gallagher for example - not great on the ball but cut out so much. We don't really have many of those midfielders anymore.

I'm not yet giving up on Kone as a good-value player for depth.

Kone is injured though isnt he?

Being forced to use a juryrigged midfield at the start of the new season when we knew the whole of last season how shot of entire MF was is just inexcusable incompetence on the part of the club.

[ThePoolMan]

We’re back to relying on Thiago been fit?

Thiago sounds like he wants to stay for his last season and go off on a free. But really the club should try tpersuade him to leave and try to sell him ASAP and try to get something at least for him because he is so injury prone that he cannot be relied upon at all. Whats the use of having a possibly world class player when he is injured half the season? It is like he is not even here anyway when he actually is.

[SteveLFC]

Thiago sounds like he wants to stay for his last season and go off on a free. But really the club should try tpersuade him to leave and try to sell him ASAP and try to get something at least for him because he is so injury prone that he cannot be relied upon at all. Whats the use of having a possibly world class player when he is injured half the season? It is like he is not even here anyway when he actually is.

Sell another midfielder? We need to be purely in buying mode for the rest of this window.

[johnathank]

Thiago sounds like he wants to stay for his last season and go off on a free. But really the club should try tpersuade him to leave and try to sell him ASAP and try to get something at least for him because he is so injury prone that he cannot be relied upon at all. Whats the use of having a possibly world class player when he is injured half the season? It is like he is not even here anyway when he actually is.

I wouldn’t be persuading anyone else to leave until we figure out how to persuade some more people to sign. 

[Knight]

Kone is injured though isnt he?

Being forced to use a juryrigged midfield at the start of the new season when we knew the whole of last season how shot of entire MF was is just inexcusable incompetence on the part of the club.

This. Maybe if we were on the brink of bringing in a couple of CMs it’d be different. But it’s mid august now and all our targets have gone elsewhere.

[ThePoolMan]

I wouldn’t be persuading anyone else to leave until we figure out how to persuade some more people to sign. 

It hardly seems to make a difference even if he stays anyway because you know he will get injured inevitably a few games into his next run.

[alonsoisared]

The midfield has just been criminally mismanaged since we won the league really, hasn't it? By a combination of pretty much all the top club employees. The concerning thing is that the exact same thing happened with the centre back position a couple of years ago and we didn't learn from it at all. We're actually pretty close now to being in that same centre back position for a second time. We're conceding whole seasons of a team that should be at the very very top with our own ineptitude behind the scenes.

What we needed has been glaringly obvious for a year, and probably even further back than that. We had a talented, successful but ageing midfield who were showing signs of being physically exhausted even in the season we nearly won all four. But that DM role has just been such an obvious position that's needed strengthening that it's basically unforgivable that we're still here now, with the season underway, without a player of that profile and more concerningly without a clue who to target next. You can say we've been unfortunate with the Chelsea thing but it's just looked like complete incompetence, we've been reactionary when we should've had this position tied up with a player ready to start on the first day of pre season.

I give Klopp a major pass on the grounds that we'd be absolutely fucked without him, but blame is there for the way he has assumed too much power and as a result we've lost a structure that was so successful for so long. That structure allowed us to be a step ahead of the rest of the big clubs and build a world class team without spending city, Chelsea or United money. But at the end of the day the owners are responsible for the staff they employ and the structure they implement and their assumption that Klopp can just do everything on a shoestring is costing us big time.

We've got two weeks to buy a player but it should've been done weeks ago. I really don't think we are far away from being a team ready to challenge again but we've wasted time. I really hope FSG being there yesterday is a sign that they are here and they want to get this shambles back under control. The midfield is an issue but the even bigger issue is the culture that has set into the club where we have let windows slip by without doing anything in the hope that world class players will just fall into our laps at cheap prices and everything will be a-okay. We need to be proactive, we need to be realistic about our squad, and we need to get ourselves properly organised again. For a while our set up was the envy of football but at the moment it is absolutely amateur.

[ApfelStudel]

I liked what I saw from Szobolszai and Mac Alister - they brought in so much energy and were always looking for that decisive forward pass/run. Also, Jones was really good when he came on - and we still have Thiago and Bajcetic to return. We need a proper DM and we will have a great midfield.

[DiggerJohn]

Feels good to have a goal threat from midfield again with Szoboszlai  Jones and possibly Gravy. Last season when we were struggling I was harping back to the days for prime Henderson Wijnaldum Fabinho Milner. But the interesting thing about football it evolves and you have to change when teams counter your go to system.

[Jookie]

Really interesting to see how we are shaping up midfield wise. I think we are going with a more flexible midfield compared to our previous 4-3-3 midfield with a 6 and 2 No8s who facilitated the wide forwards and full backs.

The holding 6 is still there nominally but not in the same way as previous. It’s not that 6ft plus, good in the air, can drop into back 3 or shield in front type of 6.  Nominally there’s still a 6 but we are looking for different things from them. Equally the No8’s are more advanced and have a bit more freedom creatively.

The players we have in midfield are either a mixture of 6/8 attributes or 8/front 3 attributes. Whether by design or due to availability of players, we’ve ended up with a group of 8 midfielders were most could conceivably play 6 or 8 position. Elliott and Szoboszlai are probably primarily 8’s (but also potentially front 3 players). I think the otter 6 midfielders  can play 6 or 8 but probably in different ways.

I think the current situation gives us a huge amount of flexibility. Lots of ability to rotate. Lots of ability to keep players fresh. That combined with front 3  options and rotation should mean we can play at a high energy level most weeks. Still interested to see this type of midfield at the likes of City, Arsenal, United away. We got a glimpse of the potential issues in 2nd half v Chelsea. Hopefully we improve more and more as the season progresses.

[Jwils21]

Imagine saying after the 2020 title win that in just 3 years, we'll replace our entire midfield aside from Jones and Elliott. The new look seems promising, with Gravenberch still to come. Exciting times!

[Simplexity]

Imagine saying after the 2020 title win that in just 3 years, we'll replace our entire midfield aside from Jones and Elliott. The new look seems promising, with Gravenberch still to come. Exciting times!

With the exception of Fabinho and his unprecedented decline I would not be that shocked by that in 2020.

[na fir dearg]

Mac Allister has been great so far but I wonder if he could be moved further forward if Gravenberch can play the holding position instead? I think our creativity could go up a notch then

[Jookie]

Imagine saying after the 2020 title win that in just 3 years, we'll replace our entire midfield aside from Jones and Elliott. The new look seems promising, with Gravenberch still to come. Exciting times!

And our entire front 3 options beyond Salah..

3 years is quite long in football. I think when you have lots of players in a 27-31 type age range then most won’t be around 3 years later.

It’s interesting since I think a few people don’t think the transition has been quick enough or aggressive enough over those 3 years.

Think only 13 players remain from our 2019/20 squad. That includes 3 GKs and players like Phillips and Van den Berg who are now on loan. It’s about 18 players from the 1st team squad that have left since 2019/20.

[Draex]

Really interesting to see how we are shaping up midfield wise. I think we are going with a more flexible midfield compared to our previous 4-3-3 midfield with a 6 and 2 No8s who facilitated the wide forwards and full backs.

The holding 6 is still there nominally but not in the same way as previous. It’s not that 6ft plus, good in the air, can drop into back 3 or shield in front type of 6.  Nominally there’s still a 6 but we are looking for different things from them. Equally the No8’s are more advanced and have a bit more freedom creatively.

The players we have in midfield are either a mixture of 6/8 attributes or 8/front 3 attributes. Whether by design or due to availability of players, we’ve ended up with a group of 8 midfielders were most could conceivably play 6 or 8 position. Elliott and Szoboszlai are probably primarily 8’s (but also potentially front 3 players). I think the otter 6 midfielders  can play 6 or 8 but probably in different ways.

I think the current situation gives us a huge amount of flexibility. Lots of ability to rotate. Lots of ability to keep players fresh. That combined with front 3  options and rotation should mean we can play at a high energy level most weeks. Still interested to see this type of midfield at the likes of City, Arsenal, United away. We got a glimpse of the potential issues in 2nd half v Chelsea. Hopefully we improve more and more as the season progresses.

I found it interesting Jones would drop back and cover Mac Allister when he moved forward, it worked really well and stopped us being open. We always had a 6 in position which made a huge difference.

Can see why we wanted Gravenberch as you say.

[Knight]

And our entire front 3 options beyond Salah..

3 years is quite long in football. I think when you have lots of players in a 27-31 type age range then most won’t be around 3 years later.

It’s interesting since I think a few people don’t think the transition has been quick enough or aggressive enough over those 3 years.

Think only 13 players remain from our 2019/20 squad. That includes 3 GKs and players like Phillips and Van den Berg who are now on loan. It’s about 18 players from the 1st team squad that have left since 2019/20.

I think it was a little slow to start in midfield but once we did it it was extremely aggressive. It’s pretty unprecedented to effectively move on your entire midfield and replace it all in one summer. When do you normally see a completely new lineup in one area of the pitch? So I reckon ideally we’d have started it last summer and finished it this summer. But what we’ve done brilliantly is effectively started and finished it in one summer so we’ve managed to ‘catch up’. And whilst at the moment we could do with a DM who knows, perhaps Bacjetic develops enough so he’s starting plenty of games by Sept ‘24 or Endo turns out to have a couple of seasons a starting player for us in him or one of the others becomes our deepest lying CM on a regular basis.

the big picture though is to go from the ‘too old, too slow, too injury prone’ midfield group we had to this one in 3 months is quite something.

[tubby]

The strong start to the season also for me puts to bed the myth that players need to be introduced slowly into a Klopp midfield because it's so tactically demanding.  We've had a complete refresh and no one has looked out of place.

The shiny new toys brigade in midfield already look like they belong.

[mattD]

The strong start to the season also for me puts to bed the myth that players need to be introduced slowly into a Klopp midfield because it's so tactically demanding.  We've had a complete refresh and no one has looked out of place.

The shiny new toys brigade in midfield already look like they belong.

I wonder if the ease at which they’ve adapted is because they come from clubs with similar playing styles perhaps?

Compare that to somebody like Robbo who went from medieval tactics under Steve Bruce to us, and you can see why it took him a while to adapt when he joined us.

[Draex]

I wonder if the ease at which they’ve adapted is because they come from clubs with similar playing styles perhaps?

Compare that to somebody like Robbo who went from medieval tactics under Steve Bruce to us, and you can see why it took him a while to adapt when he joined us.

100% which is a testement to great scouting.

Leipzig and Brighton both play a similar high intensity high press passing game.

[the_red_pill]

Really interesting to see how we are shaping up midfield wise. I think we are going with a more flexible midfield compared to our previous 4-3-3 midfield with a 6 and 2 No8s who facilitated the wide forwards and full backs.

The holding 6 is still there nominally but not in the same way as previous. It’s not that 6ft plus, good in the air, can drop into back 3 or shield in front type of 6.  Nominally there’s still a 6 but we are looking for different things from them. Equally the No8’s are more advanced and have a bit more freedom creatively.

The players we have in midfield are either a mixture of 6/8 attributes or 8/front 3 attributes. Whether by design or due to availability of players, we’ve ended up with a group of 8 midfielders were most could conceivably play 6 or 8 position. Elliott and Szoboszlai are probably primarily 8’s (but also potentially front 3 players). I think the otter 6 midfielders  can play 6 or 8 but probably in different ways.

I think the current situation gives us a huge amount of flexibility. Lots of ability to rotate. Lots of ability to keep players fresh. That combined with front 3  options and rotation should mean we can play at a high energy level most weeks. Still interested to see this type of midfield at the likes of City, Arsenal, United away. We got a glimpse of the potential issues in 2nd half v Chelsea. Hopefully we improve more and more as the season progresses.

I suggested this way too early in the Summer when we were dragging our feet with Lavia.
Of course, I wasn't convinced at the time, but the more we slogged, I thought- Maybe we've got it wrong. Perhaps Klopp is going with a more dynamic midfield, comprised of 8s that will dynamically perform some of the functions of a 6/DM and whose additional qualities/roles will further compensate for a pure DM(press-resistance, for instance- which our midfielders basically all have, PHYSICALITY and being good in the air- which our midfielders are, technically skillfull, a feature of our midfielders, etc..)
The focus on being "multi-functional" just became so much clearer towards the end, with the singing of Grav.

Of course, we still have Endo, but perhaps a DM/6 is now an OPTION? Then there is Trent, so I dunno.

Exciting times! I can't wait to see Klopp's 2nd great team in action. Forged in the fire of CL after CL loss against Madrid!

[Knight]

I suggested this way too early in the Summer when we were dragging our feet with Lavia.
Of course, I wasn't convinced at the time, but the more we slogged, I thought- Maybe we've got it wrong. Perhaps Klopp is going with a more dynamic midfield, comprised of 8s that will dynamically perform some of the functions of a 6/DM and whose additional qualities/roles will further compensate for a pure DM(press-resistance, for instance- which our midfielders basically all have, PHYSICALITY and being good in the air- which our midfielders are, technically skillfull, a feature of our midfielders, etc..)
The focus on being "multi-functional" just became so much clearer towards with the singing of Grav.

Of course, we still have Endo, but perhaps a DM/6 is now an OPTION? I dunno.

Exciting times! I can't wait to see Klopp's 2nd great team in action. Forged in the fire of CL losses against Madrid!

You can’t retrofit intentional strategy onto the outcomes we got when we know we wanted Caicedo. We wanted him a lot so we were clearly willing to spend a lot of money on a ‘progressive destroyer’ to use Reddy’s maligned description. Someone who will break up play and progress the ball. You’re definitely right that our other midfielders can do lots of that though so it’s by no means the end of the world. It’s just I don’t think a midfield with MacAllister as a loan 6 is ‘ideal’ for Klopp.

[the_red_pill]

You can’t retrofit intentional strategy onto the outcomes we got when we know we wanted Caicedo. We wanted him a lot so we were clearly willing to spend a lot of money on a ‘progressive destroyer’ to use Reddy’s maligned description. Someone who will break up play and progress the ball.

Yep, a point well taken into consideration, however, we still went for Grav afterward.
Yes, there isn't another like Caicedo - from what we now know, but let's see.
We will have to play this midfield until perhaps at least January with Endo as our only recognized DM, and we will have to make it work.

[Magix]

Mac Allister has been great so far but I wonder if he could be moved further forward if Gravenberch can play the holding position instead? I think our creativity could go up a notch then

I'd like to see this happen too. Think Gravenberch could be a revelation playing in the 6 for us. He's potentially better than Mac Allister in that position because of his size and his ability to beat his player with pace and bomb up the field and pick a final pass. Would be exciting to see Mac Allister and Szoboszlai either side of him.

[Draex]

Yep, a point well taken into consideration, however, we still went for Grav afterward.
Yes, there isn't another like Caicedo - from what we now know, but let's see.
We will have to play this midfield until perhaps at least January with Endo as our only recognized DM, and we will have to make it work.

And people shouldn't assume they knew what our plan for Caicedo was either, at Brighton he wasn't a Kante style destroyer he was a double pivot multi-functioning midfielder who was exceptionally good at the defensive side of the game

[Jookie]

It’s just I don’t think a midfield with MacAllister as a loan 6 is ‘ideal’ for Klopp.

I think a lot of people think this.

But I’m not sure what Klopp thinks. Did he view Caicedo as a pure 6 or more of a hybrid 6/8?

Was the switch to Gravenberch a complete change in strategy after missing out on Caicedo or the next option  on the list for a certain type of midfielder (in terms of potential skill set)?

It’s hard to know the above with any certainty and therefore I’m not sure if we’ve landed on this pool of midfielders by design (I.e we wanted range of multi functional midfielders from mid summer) or due to circumstance and compromise.

[RedSince86]

Next time we get to a CL final, our midfield is not going to be running on fumes again like 18 and 22.

Amazing to see the options now, we have the numbers and quality not to see a drop off, the games around Xmas and onwards we'll be able to play at a high intensity with no drop off with whatever midfield is picked.

[Black Bull Nova]

Next time we get to a CL final, our midfield is not going to be running on fumes again like 18 and 22.

Amazing to see the options now, we have the numbers and quality not to see a drop off, the Ramesh around Xmas and onwards we'll be able to play at a high intensity with no drop off with whatever midfield is picked.

Let us be honest, Saudi did us a favour, however unplanned. We have a midfield with legs now and are not obliged to play people because of their past. I did not want to lose Henderson or Fabinho but they accelerated the revival in our midfield (and funded it) and allowed fresh legs to have life in this new midfield. They can stick their walking football up their arse.

[SamLad]

a few years back we had the Triple-S attack - Suarez Sturridge Sterling

we now have a midfield of GEMS
Grav Endo Mac Szobo

[Knight]

I think a lot of people think this.

But I’m not sure what Klopp thinks. Did he view Caicedo as a pure 6 or more of a hybrid 6/8?

Was the switch to Gravenberch a complete change in strategy after missing out on Caicedo or the next option  on the list for a certain type of midfielder (in terms of potential skill set)?

It’s hard to know the above with any certainty and therefore I’m not sure if we’ve landed on this pool of midfielders by design (I.e we wanted range of multi functional midfielders from mid summer) or due to circumstance and compromise.

It’s a really interesting conversation. My thesis would be that he saw Caicedo as the 6 in our formation, that is the deepest lying midfielder who would progress the play along with Trent, stay behind the ball and, most importantly in terms of his specific skill set, be a supreme athlete capable of getting round the pitch and so putting out fires. When you compare Caicedo’s offensive output (minimal) with our other midfielders (aside from Endo) it’s pretty clear he wasn’t going to play as an 8 in the new system which sees the 8s be a lot more progressive than they used to be. Caicedo could certainly have played the Henderson role in the old 433 (covering for Trent) but even if we’d gone back to that he’d have also been the most obvious 6 in the old 433.

Re Gravenberch - I think the club rates him very highly and has wanted him for ages. Once Thiago leaves there’ll clearly be room for another 8 in the squad and so we took advantage of his availability even though it leaves the group a little unbalanced at the moment. Although if Mac is going to play as a 6 it’s fine because you have Grav, Szoboslai, Jones and Elliot for the 8 roles. So bringing him in was more about wanting him than saying anything about a wider strategy or a decision to move away from having a proper DM in the team. I think the king standing interest is reasonably good evidence of this.

I’m reasonably confident (although of course it’s guess work) that if we’d gotten Caicedo we wouldn’t have got Endo but we’d still have gotten Gravenberch, assuming the finances worked. And that would have let us with a very balanced group of players.
DM: Caicedo, Bacjetic, Thiago
8: Mac, Szoboslai, Jones, Grav, Elliot.

Thiago goes at the end of the season and let the youngsters battle it out for playing time and the strongest survive. One or two of them probably end up leaving in a year or two because they don’t get the game time.

[Black Bull Nova]

a few years back we had the Triple-S attack - Suarez Sturridge Sterling

we now have a midfield of GEMS
Grav Endo Mac Szobo

or SMEG

[jonkrux]

or SMEG