Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[Samie]

Lol if he thinks he's getting ahead of Pjanic,Matuidi and Kedira etc.

[Chakan]

How are they different? Wasn't he playing with an injury for much of last season?

His commitment to me is around 60/70% of what is was last year. Tracking back, shitting out of tackles, concentration, all down this year. He looks a shadow of the player he looked at the end of last season. Instead of kicking on he's regressed badly. That to me says his minds already on the next challenge, which will probably be Juventus.

[sms1986]

His commitment to me is around 60/70% of what is was last year. Tracking back, shitting out of tackles, concentration, all down this year. He looks a shadow of the player he looked at the end of last season. Instead of kicking on he's regressed badly. That to me says his minds already on the next challenge, which will probably be Juventus.

Or he's just going through a bit of bad form.

[Chakan]

Or he's just going through a bit of bad form.

Nah not for me. Agree to disagree then. You think it's a bad patch of form, fair enough, I think it's something else.

[sms1986]

Nah not for me. Agree to disagree then. You think it's a bad patch of form, fair enough, I think it's something else.

Sure, I guess we'll know more at the end of the season.

[BabuYagu]

Was Henderson pressing and Gini holding back planned? It didn't look it. Henderson seemed to be particularly aggresive after Phil's goal until their goal.

I'd essentially be guessing whether it was instruction, understood by both Henderson & Gini or instinctive for Henderson to press, instinctive by Gini to hold.

It's unusual for the #6 to press up like that ahead of the #8. His job is to sit and protect. But then our system is unusual. Henderson's instinct is to run, yet he is #6. Gini tactically very clever and is better at positioning himself. Therefore them both doing those jobs suits them better in that scenario. I don't really have a problem with that. The bigger problem was just the lack of bodies in midfield to press. You look at Dortmund when an attack broke down in the central areas the guy would be surrounded in a second by 5 players. We were wide open with Gini holding the whole of midfield and Henderson alone in pressing. Mane, Moreno & Coutinho were all on the left flank.



This makes my main problem with this is pass choice. Sturridge has his back to goal and, even if he beats '2', '3' is also nearby. He has a lot of work on there to create anything for himself so the gain from completing that pass seems small. The risk is big though. We are horrifically outnumbered in the middle of the pitch. If the attack breaks down, we are in trouble. It's the third time Henderson has made that particular pass this season. The other two (v Hoffenheim and v Arsenal) both resulted in them winning the ball, cutting through our open midfield and almost scoring. This time it results in a goal. It just seems an unnecessary risk to me. I understand a throughball attempt there if it's on, it turns the side around and stretches the opponent vertically. But playing the ball into Sturridge's feet there will likely not get us anything and is a risk if he loses it.

Sturridge also has to do better there. He has a habit of giving the ball away in bad moments for us with awful control. Remember the second Burnley goal last season?

I also think based on the movement of our side towards the left, particularly Coutinho to become the deepest point, we were trying to set up a passing diamond on the left. The plan there is for the deepest point to make a run beyond the top point at a certain moment and open up the space behind the defence pushed up against the diamond. We were perfectly set up to do so, which makes Henderson's choice even stranger because seeing three players out wide on the left - I assume Salah is wide right to isolate their full back which is also a typical movement from him when we are setting up such attacking patterns - that means we are wide open in the middle and giving the ball away there is a nightmare to defend.

[SMASHerano]

He's totally pointless away from home, completely and utter waste of a shirt. It's a huge problem. How Oxlade is getting 5mins here and there while he's allowed to stink the joint out every week I'll never know. Alex showed more desire in 5 mins than Gini has all season.

I remember telling you the exact same thing about Wijnaldum in his thread not too long ago. Glad you're seeing sense

[BabuYagu]

Or he's just going through a bit of bad form.

In bad form you would expect higher effort though? Working harder to put it right.

In the games you look at his running stats they are all ~20% less than the other two in midfield. I can give you various examples this season of him being out of position and either standing or walking while people run to get back. Take the last game he played against Spartak for example - ignoring everything that happened up to the point where he kicked the ball behind TAA, he is now out of position. Now watch the reactions of every Liverpool player, particularly Coutinho in trying to prevent a goal. Now watch Can walk back. He's the guy we want to be a #6. To hold the position in front of defence. Sniff out danger. Kill opposition attacks. It doesn't seem very high on his todo list right now to be honest.

And it it's a one off then fair enough. But there are examples of it every game and it's always directly connected to dangerous moments the opposition have, or goals.

[sms1986]

In bad form you would expect higher effort though? Working harder to put it right.

In the games you look at his running stats they are all ~20% less than the other two in midfield. I can give you various examples this season of him being out of position and either standing or walking while people run to get back. Take the last game he played against Spartak for example - ignoring everything that happened up to the point where he kicked the ball behind TAA, he is now out of position. Now watch the reactions of every Liverpool player, particularly Coutinho in trying to prevent a goal. Now watch Can walk back. He's the guy we want to be a #6. To hold the position in front of defence. Sniff out danger. Kill opposition attacks. It doesn't seem very high on his todo list right now to be honest.

And it it's a one off then fair enough. But there are examples of it every game and it's always directly connected to dangerous moments the opposition have, or goals.

Fair enough. Do you think he's heading to Juventus any time soon?

[Suareznumber7]

  Yeah, his job was to be an obstacle the make Shelvey's job harder while the defence sorts their shit out. They didn't. If you give a Premier League midfielder that time and a high line, he will pick you off. Same thing happened on the first City goal. And the Hoffenheim goal away. It's just basic defending to drop off in those situations and they aren't. I don't know if they are trying to stay compact to midfield and misunderstanding the importance of those two contrasting things perhaps?

I just quickly watched back the goal that Newcastle scored and you could pick out a few mistakes from Hendo and Gini in their movement while we had possession which ultimately led to the clear passing lane for Shelvey. 

[Suareznumber7]

Was Henderson pressing and Gini holding back planned? It didn't look it. Henderson seemed to be particularly aggresive after Phil's goal until their goal.

If you watch what happened from the throw in that Gomez took up to the pass from Shelvey, you can see Coutinho dropping in to receive the ball and Hendo moving forward.  While that was happening Gini started to slide across to cover for Hendo but went across on the same line. 

The first question we need to ask, in that situation should Hendo be moving forward in the first place?  It’s the 36th minute and we are up 1-0.  Going into halftime with the lead should have been the first thought on any defensive players mind. 

The second question, why didn’t Wijnaldum cover the space that Hendo just vacated?  Instead of sliding straight across he should have slid diagonally towards the CB’s to get off the same plain as Hendo provide some protection for the CB’s. 

[KiNki]

Depends on whether you believe Can is part of the problem or part of the solution

part of the problem is strength in depth.   part of the solution is simple competition for places, we don't have it.

Imho klopps preferred 11 is this

mane firmino salah
phil can hendo
back four.
 
i believe we've only played it once this season though, we know why, 2 games a week, mane sent off, players being dicks over contracts and moves away and declaring themselves unfit to play. 

I don't think wini, lallana, are improvements or adequate replacements on those 3.   I think keita would be.  I think we need another in addition to keita.   

likewise I'd want us to sign another winger for the same reason, should one want out, fine, fuck off, we already have a replacement, and just a basic desire to see real competition for places instead of shiting it cos one player is out and the drop off in quality is currently huge.

I'd like us to be able to field various first 11's and still be confident the team we put out can do a job. 

[Suareznumber7]

Lol if he thinks he's getting ahead of Pjanic,Matuidi and Kedira etc.

Kedira and Matuidi are in their 30’s aren’t they?  Good succession planning actually. 

[Suareznumber7]

Look at the gap in between Wijnaldum and Coutinho.  You could drive a Mac truck in between them. 

[KiNki]

Good succession planning actually. 

Yes we don't do enough of that.  We react as slowly as matip did today to unforseen dangers.

Best aspect of our side is our wingers, who'd have thunk of it, so plan ahead for mane and salah getting older and not as fast, or wanting moves away.  The current alternatives is kent on loan, ojo, who's injured, wilson.  Make a decision are those kids good enough to step in and challenge or do we need to plan for some replacements. 

Please don't back to forcing midfielders and forwards out there, dont go back to, kuyt, borini, cisse on the wing.   I want wingers there, bread and butter wingers, plan ahead.

Rinse and repeat with midfielders, plan ahead.

[Lastrador]

I'd essentially be guessing whether it was instruction, understood by both Henderson & Gini or instinctive for Henderson to press, instinctive by Gini to hold.

It's unusual for the #6 to press up like that ahead of the #8. His job is to sit and protect. But then our system is unusual. Henderson's instinct is to run, yet he is #6. Gini tactically very clever and is better at positioning himself. Therefore them both doing those jobs suits them better in that scenario. I don't really have a problem with that. The bigger problem was just the lack of bodies in midfield to press. You look at Dortmund when an attack broke down in the central areas the guy would be surrounded in a second by 5 players. We were wide open with Gini holding the whole of midfield and Henderson alone in pressing. Mane, Moreno & Coutinho were all on the left flank.



This makes my main problem with this is pass choice. Sturridge has his back to goal and, even if he beats '2', '3' is also nearby. He has a lot of work on there to create anything for himself so the gain from completing that pass seems small. The risk is big though. We are horrifically outnumbered in the middle of the pitch. If the attack breaks down, we are in trouble. It's the third time Henderson has made that particular pass this season. The other two (v Hoffenheim and v Arsenal) both resulted in them winning the ball, cutting through our open midfield and almost scoring. This time it results in a goal. It just seems an unnecessary risk to me. I understand a throughball attempt there if it's on, it turns the side around and stretches the opponent vertically. But playing the ball into Sturridge's feet there will likely not get us anything and is a risk if he loses it.

Sturridge also has to do better there. He has a habit of giving the ball away in bad moments for us with awful control. Remember the second Burnley goal last season?

I also think based on the movement of our side towards the left, particularly Coutinho to become the deepest point, we were trying to set up a passing diamond on the left. The plan there is for the deepest point to make a run beyond the top point at a certain moment and open up the space behind the defence pushed up against the diamond. We were perfectly set up to do so, which makes Henderson's choice even stranger because seeing three players out wide on the left - I assume Salah is wide right to isolate their full back which is also a typical movement from him when we are setting up such attacking patterns - that means we are wide open in the middle and giving the ball away there is a nightmare to defend.

Sorry Babu, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with the pass selection (or the weight) at all. It isn't a risky pass, it is a simple one between the lines that you see played lots of times per game. It isn't a pass to release Sturridge or to create something immediately, it is a ball for him to either it pass is it to Moreno on his left or to hold up and wait for a midfielder run at the center, probably a first time pass to Moreno was the intention of the play, you can see Alberto starting to move when the ball is being recieved by Dani.

A player of Sturridge quality shouldn't miss control a simple ball like that, it can happen but you can't let the thought of "Oh, he might miss-control it and we will be in trouble" cloud a players desicion making, especially when it is a simple ball to a players feet; That just leads to ultra conservative passing (something that Henderson is already accused enough) and the midfielders never breaking the lines. If a player miss control and loses the ball like that whenever a team is in transition it will always be problematic. The only fault I find from the midfield in that play is that when Sturridge loses they weren't aggressive enough in closing Shelvey or obstructing the passing lanes.

Edit:



Besides it doesn't look like Henderson have a lot of options either, the passing lanes to his left are closed by two Newcastle players, so he has to go through Sturridge to get the ball to Moreno. He could have gone for the pass to Gini too but considering his body shape and speed on the ball is probably even more risky than playing that pass to Daniel.

[killer-heels]

Juventus CEO Beppe Marotta has confirmed Juve made a summer move for Can - but won’t be going back for Can in January, nothing said about the summer.

Is this good news?

Not bothered if he goes. He is overrated here. Its not great losing out on a fair chunk of money but as a player I dont think he is great.

[AndyMuller]

Not bothered if he goes. He is overrated here. Its not great losing out on a fair chunk of money but as a player I dont think he is great.

Same here. He's been playing like his head is at Juve this season anyway.

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[Triad]

While you might be right, when we aren't compact in midfield, like we were for the goal, we look really bad and easy to play though. When the players do their jobs tactically, they look good as a unit. The Hendo-Gini-Lallana trio was a good example of this last season. They were compact and it gave us the platform to counter press anything happening in midfield quickly and efficiently. We gave up no chances from through balls. Now we see the regularly. It isn't because Lallana is a great player defensively, but just that as a trio they are working well and complimenting each other. We have lost that somewhere.

I think the main reason it succeeded last year was their energy.We were outrunning and harrying everyone else in the league.It wouldn't really work now as we are playing 2 games a week.

Also what was the plan you noticed we were trying to do in the last 20 minutes with a 2 man midfield of Gini and Hendo none of whom took the responsibility of moving the ball forwards.

[JD.]

Look at the gap in between Wijnaldum and Coutinho.  You could drive a Mac truck in between them.

Why is our 'defensive midfielder' so far up the park?

[Triad]

Why is our 'defensive midfielder' so far up the park?

That's just Hendo though.He's always been like that.If you want to see peak Hendo though watch him specifically against City when they score their 3rd goal.It is laughable.

[Red-juvenated]

With the style we play, using 4 offensive players, what we need from the midfield is good through-passers and pace controllers (Alonso and Macherano types).

Our current mid-fielders 'dictate' the flow of attacks and at the pace we play, it is not easy to always get it right. With Keita we will get a bit of steadiness and accuracy.

Until then, we just have to hope that we get the rhythm from last season back, sooner than later.

[Pradan]

Henderson and Wijnaldum have no right being starters.

[Lastrador]

Why is our 'defensive midfielder' so far up the park?

Because he had drived the ball forward to play a pass between the lines, you know the thing he’s criticized for never doing.

[plura]

Henderson and Wijnaldum have no right being starters.

The problem is that Can doesn't really play good enough consistently to deserve one either. I'm not sure if we are just 'stuck' with three midfielders who on their days can be really good but is generally very inconsistent or if it's our team and way of playing that makes them so. But they are capable of playing much better but if it's formation, form, teammates, style of play, etc or all of it that makes them play this poorly consistently this season I don't know. Henderson is not suited for that role, or has just been a poor fit for it this season. We all can see that no matter what certain stats showed us last season. Gini we knew could disappear from time to time last season, but nothing of this kind. He's offering nothing. Can still blows hot and cold, and can be a monster that dominates games to being absolutely awful in defending and many 'normal' midfield / football tasks.

It is really getting tiring and I think Klopp feels the same, that's why he wants and will get Keita in. But maybe this season so far has showed him the need for additional additions. Lets hope they all can turn this around together for the better until January and reevaluate if necessary then.

[JD.]

Because he had drived the ball forward to play a pass between the lines, you know the thing he’s criticized for never doing.

Is he? I don't remember seeing many people asking for Henderson to run forward with the ball.

He's criticised for not breaking lines with intelligent passing. Not for failing to go charging up the park with the ball at his feet.

[Fallen]

We are going to struggle so long as we have Gini and Hendo in our midfield. The problem I have with these two is they play it way too safe. For the entirety of the Newcastle game, they would position themselves square and side by side when the chance was there for them to adopt positions between defenders - positions that would have taken the defenders out if a pass finds them. This therefore leads to a lot of sideways passing and brings me to my next point. These two are also incapable of passing between the lines. This lack of ability negates a whole part of Phil's play as it forces him to drop deep, receive the ball, and work the space of the rest.

If we are serious about challenging for some honours this season, get Keita in in January.

[Egyptian36]

Always thought the prefect midfield should have a defensively intelligent player, a composed player who can bring calmness to the team under pressure with his passing and a creative player who can score goals..

The current midfield we have Coutinho and Lallana who can Play the creative role but for the other roles we are lacking as Hendo, Can and Wijnaldum all similar players..

[Suareznumber7]

Why is our 'defensive midfielder' so far up the park?

That’s the biggest issue at the moment I think.  Hendo ran forward into that space leaving a huge hole in front of our cb’s.  If you watch back the goal there was absolutely no reason to make that movement.  We literally just scored and had 10 minutes to go before halftime.  We need more intelligence in that moment.  Hendo should simply sit in, relax, and make sure to protect our cb’s so we go into halftime 1-0 up. 

[Chakan]

That’s the biggest issue at the moment I think.  Hendo ran forward into that space leaving a huge hole in front of our cb’s.  If you watch back the goal there was absolutely no reason to make that movement.  We literally just scored and had 10 minutes to go before halftime.  We need more intelligence in that moment.  Hendo should simply sit in, relax, and make sure to protect our cb’s so we go into halftime 1-0 up. 

Our game management under Klopp has always been very suspect, specially with the players he has. We hardly ever see out the half or the game when we are leading.

[Suareznumber7]

We are going to struggle so long as we have Gini and Hendo in our midfield. The problem I have with these two is they play it way too safe. For the entirety of the Newcastle game, they would position themselves square and side by side when the chance was there for them to adopt positions between defenders - positions that would have taken the defenders out if a pass finds them. This therefore leads to a lot of sideways passing and brings me to my next point. These two are also incapable of passing between the lines. This lack of ability negates a whole part of Phil's play as it forces him to drop deep, receive the ball, and work the space of the rest.

If we are serious about challenging for some honours this season, get Keita in in January.

See, I disagree with this.  I don’t have any issues with their passing.  It is what it is and their job really is to get the ball to Coutinho, Salah, Mane, Firmino and allow them to create.  If they play 100 sideways passes but those passes get the ball to the right areas for us to attack then that’s fine.  The problem that I see with Hendo, in particular, is his lack of defensive discipline.  He ran out to press the ball a number of times yesterday and got beat so easily it was like he wasn’t there.  In my opinion, we would be much better off if he would stay in that space in front of the cb’s and provide them some cover.  We are seriously struggling to stop opposing teams and our 1 DM charging out and leaving gaps behind him is not helping. 

[Suareznumber7]

Our game management under Klopp has always been very suspect, specially with the players he has. We hardly ever see out the half or the game when we are leading.

One of the most frustrating things about this run of draws.  A little game intelligence is sorely missing from the side. 

[Chakan]

One of the most frustrating things about this run of draws.  A little game intelligence is sorely missing from the side. 

When was the last time we were leading 2-1/1-0/3-2 and you saw a player take the ball to the corner flag and try waste some time?

[Chris~]

Given Henderson is regularly pushing up to press from midfield I'd say it's more an instruction coming from Klopp rather than Henderson just ignoring instructions

[Jookie]

His commitment to me is around 60/70% of what is was last year. Tracking back, shitting out of tackles, concentration, all down this year. He looks a shadow of the player he looked at the end of last season. Instead of kicking on he's regressed badly. That to me says his minds already on the next challenge, which will probably be Juventus.

I'm far from Can's biggest fan but I haven't seen anything to suggest his commitment isn't what it was. To put a number on his commitment at 60-70% is completely arbitrary.

He's not playing well in a team, and a midfield, that is struggling at the moment. That doesn't mean his head has been turned. It doesn't mean it hasn't either. Only he'll really know. For someone who wants to find a convenient excuse to bash a player during a poor run, then not signing a contract becomes the simplest answer.

What do you think Wijnaldum's commitment % has been so far this season? He hasn't played great so far so just wondering if commitment is the issue here too.

[Suareznumber7]

When was the last time we were leading 2-1/1-0/3-2 and you saw a player take the ball to the corner flag and try waste some time?

Or stay down a little “injured” after being fouled?  It simply doesn’t happen with this side. 

[Suareznumber7]

Given Henderson is regularly pushing up to press from midfield I'd say it's more an instruction coming from Klopp rather than Henderson just ignoring instructions

But a lot of time he’s pressing by himself leaving massive holes for the opposing team to go through.  Pressing, if done correctly, is done by a group of players around the ball.  Not one player trying to do it on his own.  So, either he is pressing at the wrong moments or his teammates are not following the managers instructions. 

[Pradan]

When was the last time we were leading 2-1/1-0/3-2 and you saw a player take the ball to the corner flag and try waste some time?

Small club mentality that.

[Chakan]

Small club mentality that.

No it isn't. It's bloody game management to see out the game and ensure the win.

[Chakan]

I'm far from Can's biggest fan but I haven't seen anything to suggest his commitment isn't what it was. To put a number on his commitment at 60-70% is completely arbitrary.

He's not playing well in a team, and a midfield, that is struggling at the moment. That doesn't mean his head has been turned. It doesn't mean it hasn't either. Only he'll really know. For someone who wants to find a convenient excuse to bash a player during a poor run, then not signing a contract becomes the simplest answer.

What do you think Wijnaldum's commitment % has been so far this season? He hasn't played great so far so just wondering if commitment is the issue here too.

In bad form you would expect higher effort though? Working harder to put it right.

In the games you look at his running stats they are all ~20% less than the other two in midfield. I can give you various examples this season of him being out of position and either standing or walking while people run to get back. Take the last game he played against Spartak for example - ignoring everything that happened up to the point where he kicked the ball behind TAA, he is now out of position. Now watch the reactions of every Liverpool player, particularly Coutinho in trying to prevent a goal. Now watch Can walk back. He's the guy we want to be a #6. To hold the position in front of defence. Sniff out danger. Kill opposition attacks. It doesn't seem very high on his todo list right now to be honest.

And it it's a one off then fair enough. But there are examples of it every game and it's always directly connected to dangerous moments the opposition have, or goals.