Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[BabuYagu]

Surprised by Klopp's comments on AOC playing in midfield (or not playing there) ... don't think they make much logical sense in themselves (he needs training to play as an 8 but not to play as a wide forward in a front 3 a position he's never really played or at least not in this system) ... but I don't see him as a particularly good fit as a WF in a 433 .... where as I do in an 8 in a counter pressing system ...
I like the signing lot less if he's only rarely going to play in midfield

I wrote an article way back at the beginning of September - but just haven't had time to finish yet - about Klopp's press. Scribes & staff can already read it though.

Anyway, it goes into a lot of detail on how long it takes players to adjust to pressing football ordinarily using quotes from the likes of Rinus Michels, Seb Kehl & even Klopp himself. Then looking at underlying pressing data to see at what point things start to peak in his first season for Firmino & Lallana. Two players we would all agree are intelligent pressers.

The output showed the following markers for both players:-
First 2 months = High Output, Tactically Stupid Pressing. As in sharp increase in workload for new manager as they aim to impress by pressing often without having the training in place to know when to press and when not to. Players tire quickly also (e.g. Firmino and Lallana rarely finished 90 minutes for Klopp initially)
Next 3 months = Low Output, Tactically Smarter Pressing. As they begin to learn the indicators for when not to press they start pressing less and less. Instead they focus on shape and compactness before pressing rather than just pressing without much thought as they were initially.
Next 3+ months = Increasing back to High Output, Tactically Smarter Pressing. Having refined when to press, when not to press - the improvements in other components of our press (e.g. how compact we are, our shape, fitness and conditioning individually) gradually sees our pressing game become increasingly effective.

The conclusions I got this in relation to new signings in midfield was this:-

So given it seems the first 2 months is the danger zone when even the smart player will be prone to some headless chicken pressing - it makes sense to have held back Gini for the first 2-3 months. After that it seems the basics on shape and compactness are there and that is used as the platform for them to build their own pressing game onto it. It also means we are unlikely to see AoC much in the central positions until perhaps Christmas time and will see him in lesser tactically complicated positions such as full back and wing positions as only 180 degrees of awareness is needed and explosiveness is more important that tactical smarts. I suspect if we do see him earlier, we will see something more like the 2-1 shape Rafa/Poch use allowing AoC to be a hunter with limited tactical responsibility in front of Henderson & Gini/Can.

It also shows the value of getting Naby in early next season. As he is already in a German tactical shape and pressing system, I suspect he can adapt quicker than most. He also should have most of that 2 months danger zone eaten up in pre-season making him ready to go.

[El Lobo]

The right to left hooked  pass comes about when he runs out of ideas. He has always done it whilst he has been here and he does it for England. It looks okay when it comes off but it is so predictable and the worst part is because of his body shape he does it blind. Sometimes we haven't even got a player pushed up on that side.

On the bright side though at least when he plays that pass he knows he isn't going to have to receive a return pass . It is almost as if he has given up. I have tried a few passes and we haven't broken them down so hook it left and get back in position.

I'll be honest mate, its quite a relief that its not just the owners you slag off but you do join in on the players too sometimes

[Vote For Pedro]

We'll be thankful of AOC (or Chambo as Klopp calls him) by Christmas. The short-sightedness of the football press and the general bloke in the pub is no real surprise. I was making brekky on Sunday morning and sat down only to watch 10 seconds of that fat, ugly f*ck who is chief football writer for the s*n extolling the virtues of Mourihno's genius. It's that sort of fucking dinosaur who is driving such narratives about Chamberlain which are lapped up by oposition fans and, sadly, plenty of our own. And there's still pundits on the telly spouting the £35m for a backup bullshit... and that's before the Engurland fans crawl out of the woodwork to spout their nonsense about Henderson ahead of the world cup. Maybe I should start watching more lawn bowls and calm down.

[Eeyore]

I'll be honest mate, its quite a relief that its not just the owners you slag off but you do join in on the players too sometimes

Look myself and several other posters have criticised Henderson for the hooked left to right ball. Your response has been to try and blame the manager. Your favourite scapegoat Klopp. There is a clear pattern of Henderson playing the hooked blind ball to the far post.

Now he has done that under both a succession of Liverpool managers and a succession of England managers but instead of acknowledging that you first look to blame Klopp and then come out with snide comments about slagging people off.

My position on Henderson is very clear. I think he has some great attributes but struggles to dictate the play. For me he has always looked at his best when we have played a diamond and he is pulled out of the middle and given less responsibility to build the play and more license to press and to make forward runs.

Personally I think he is too passive in the crucial initial period after we win possession as a six and struggles as an 8 when teams park the bus. He either goes sideways or tries the hooked ball to the right. There are no one-two's, quick passes into feet or attempts to take on an opponent in the final third which is what you require from your 8's against a low block.

That for me is why he has been converted to a 6. The thing is though without a quicker delivery from the 6 position you end up high up the pitch with your 6 becoming an extra 8 but with even less protection of the back four. You also end up producing lower quality chances whilst being vulnerable at the back.

We play the wrong ball far too many times. Initially we are far too passive with Henderson being the worst culprit. When you win the ball back you have a small window of opportunity before the opposition get set. Far too often in that small period of time the ball goes into Henderson and the ball goes sideways or back to the centre backs. Far too often that happens when Henderson has oceans of space to turn into.

It's not his fault, he has his limitations and it something he is unlikely to be able to change at this stage of his career. The thing is though it is not uncommon in the English game, we tend to produce players who are dynamic when facing their opponents goal and given space to run into. Play a low block and make them work the ball and create opportunities and they simply don't have the tools to do it.

The thing is though please don't try and pass the buck and blame Klopp for that because it has been endemic within the English game for decades.

[El Lobo]

Look myself and several other posters have criticised Henderson for the hooked left to right ball. Your response has been to try and blame the manager. Your favourite scapegoat Klopp. There is a clear pattern of Henderson playing the hooked blind ball to the far post.

I didn't blame anyone mate

Quite happy for him to try something different to passing the ball across the pitch five or six times. What happened was you made some slimy comment about our captain, I imagine because you've been warned to pack in the slimy comments about our owners? Maybe because you see the captain as someone selected by 'the authority' and sort of a middle man between the owners and the team? Pretty surprised you haven't mentioned how we've only spent 1.27% of our transfer budget on defensive midfielders under FSG, but whatever.

He's used that pass under previous managers, because its worked. He's capable of pulling it off, and when he pulls it off its almost certain to lead to a goal or a good chance. So its not really a great leap of imagination to suggest that the manager is quite happy with him trying it, and that its not just a 'I don't want to have the ball so I'll just put it somewhere away from me so I don't have to have it' like you so nicely put about our captain And again, if the manager wasn't happy with him trying it I'm pretty sure he'd have made steps to, you know, stop him doing it. But then lets be brutally honest, I'm talking to someone who has constantly slagged this manager off, called him a liar, questioned his integrity, called him a yes man etc so I'm certainly not going to bang my head against a brick wall trying to promote the manager to you when you've already made your mind up about him. Thankfully, he's going nowhere.

How hard do you think it is for a manager to say 'look, don't do that Hendo. Its shit, it doesn't work, pack it in'? If its breaking down our attack two/three times a game has been suggested, would we not just tell him not to? When something works for you, you try it again. Because you know you're capable. That it doesn't come off every time, or even that often, doesn't mean its the wrong thing to do. That we're still doing it, that Coutinho is still having lots of long shots, that Hendo is still playing that ball suggests that we'll carry on doing it but still need to learn the best times to do it, to be more clinical or patient in those situations. But the idea that he does it because he just doesn't want the ball and wants to look like he's made an effort so he can pass on the responsibility of having the ball? That really is just sly even for you Al.

[Curtisinho]

I think Can is the biggest issue with our midfield. Against United both Henderson and Wijnaldum I thought were pretty positive (especially Wijnaldum). When Lallana is healthy if we can line up with him in there along with Wijnaldum things will look real good I think.

Next season it's anyone's guess. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this:

Wijnaldum
Lallana - Keita

Knowing that Coutinho is likely not long for Liverpool. Although to be honest I still think we should be playing a 4-2-3-1 with a true striker in front of Salah - Firmino - Mane and a Keita/Wijnaldum double pivot.

[Eeyore]

I didn't blame anyone mate

Quite happy for him to try something different to passing the ball across the pitch five or six times. What happened was you made some slimy comment about our captain, I imagine because you've been warned to pack in the slimy comments about our owners? Maybe because you see the captain as someone selected by 'the authority' and sort of a middle man between the owners and the team? Pretty surprised you haven't mentioned how we've only spent 1.27% of our transfer budget on defensive midfielders under FSG, but whatever.

Same old Eel get pulled up on something and just resort to personal abuse. As you say why bother looking up the figures about how we have used our budget and comparing it to Dortmund when you can just launch personal abuse at other posters.

He's used that pass under previous managers, because its worked. He's capable of pulling it off, and when he pulls it off its almost certain to lead to a goal or a good chance. So its not really a great leap of imagination to suggest that the manager is quite happy with him trying it, and that its not just a 'I don't want to have the ball so I'll just put it somewhere away from me so I don't have to have it' like you so nicely put about our captain And again, if the manager wasn't happy with him trying it I'm pretty sure he'd have made steps to, you know, stop him doing it.

You are doing it again absolving Henderson for playing a really low percentage ball by suggesting that it should be up to the manager to stop him doing it. Also why do you keep on mentioning that Henderson is the captain. Or is that another thing that absolves Henderson of blame for playing such a low percentage ball. If he wasn't the captain would it be okay to mention it.

Look for me he plays it when he runs out of ideas, if Lallana is in the team and Henderson isn't expected to create so much then it rarely happens but if we are running out of time especially if we are a goal down then it creeps into his play more and more.

But then lets be brutally honest, I'm talking to someone who has constantly slagged this manager off, called him a liar, questioned his integrity, called him a yes man etc so I'm certainly not going to bang my head against a brick wall trying to promote the manager to you when you've already made your mind up about him. Thankfully, he's going nowhere.

Launching another personal attack. Come on Eel you have come out with this nonsense time and time again but fail to back it up time and time again. So again when did I call the manager a liar, where have I constantly slagged the manager off and when have I questioned his integrity.

As it goes I think Klopp is great and by far the best chance we have off getting back to the top. I have constantly defended him and stated my opinion that he needs to be backed with better people in the higher echelons of the Club and by the Club bringing in better players who are ideally suited to the way he wants to play.

How hard do you think it is for a manager to say 'look, don't do that Hendo. Its shit, it doesn't work, pack it in'? If its breaking down our attack two/three times a game has been suggested, would we not just tell him not to? When something works for you, you try it again. Because you know you're capable. That it doesn't come off every time, or even that often, doesn't mean its the wrong thing to do. That we're still doing it, that Coutinho is still having lots of long shots, that Hendo is still playing that ball suggests that we'll carry on doing it but still need to learn the best times to do it, to be more clinical or patient in those situations. But the idea that he does it because he just doesn't want the ball and wants to look like he's made an effort so he can pass on the responsibility of having the ball? That really is just sly even for you Al.

So that is all it takes a quiet word to a player not to play a low percentage ball when he has run out of ideas. Well if that is the case I think you should be appointed England manager mate. Obviously you don't need the tactical nous to choose the right pass, you don't need the ability, control and technique to play in tight areas. You don't need the physical attributes to be able to beat players, play tight one-touch football against teams that drop off and defend deep.

Nope you just need a manager to say Oi Hendo stop clipping it far post.

[Johnny Foreigner]

New low lobo.. slimy ? Read through al's posts on Henderson and you see a fairly balanced view.

[El Lobo]

Fucking hell why did I engage him.

I'm not gonna reply Al, fuck knows why I did in the first place. Carry on.

[Eeyore]

Fucking hell why did I engage him.

I'm not gonna reply Al, fuck knows why I did in the first place. Carry on.

Strangely enough you do this time and time again. You throw out accusations and then run away when you are asked to back it up. You accused me of constantly slagging the manager off, calling him a liar, questioning his integrity and calling him a yes man.

So please either back up those allegations or retract them. 

[Eeyore]

I think Can is the biggest issue with our midfield. Against United both Henderson and Wijnaldum I thought were pretty positive (especially Wijnaldum). When Lallana is healthy if we can line up with him in there along with Wijnaldum things will look real good I think.

Next season it's anyone's guess. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this:

Wijnaldum
Lallana - Keita

Knowing that Coutinho is likely not long for Liverpool. Although to be honest I still think we should be playing a 4-2-3-1 with a true striker in front of Salah - Firmino - Mane and a Keita/Wijnaldum double pivot.

I think it's as much about the balance.

Lallana is the key to the mix put him with Gini and either Can or Henderson and we have a good balance in there. Things could be improved but you certainly have a midfield capable of challenging for top 4 and doing well in Europe. It's when Lallana is missing that we struggle, Gini is at his best linking the play between Can/Hendo and Lallana and the other two are decent at the 6 role but only when they aren't asked to be the main play maker.

So for me Lallana and Gini are nailed on when both fit which leaves us with either Can or Hendo. Neither are great defensively as a six but Henderson's athleticism means he edges ahead as the six at the moment. Which leaves in a bit of a quandary given Can's contract situation. He would be great to keep as a squad player but I can't really see that happening given his contract situation and Juve's interest.

Maybe it might be better to cash in on him in January and look to bring someone else in and bed them in for next season. 

[El Lobo]

Strangely enough you do this time and time again. You throw out accusations and then run away when you are asked to back it up. You accused me of constantly slagging the manager off, calling him a liar, questioning his integrity and calling him a yes man.

So please either back up those allegations or retract them.

I'm not gonna further derail the thread buddy, I literally have no idea why I didn't put you on ignore before  Your posting history is well established, if anyones remotely bothered about further reading into this little squabble they can just search for your posts in the old FSG thread and see the numerous managers (Kenny as well if I remember correctly) you've thrown under the bus in pursuit of slagging off the owners. But yeah, the thread has been derailed quite enough 

[Klippity Klopp]

I think it's as much about the balance.

Lallana is the key to the mix put him with Gini and either Can or Henderson and we have a good balance in there. Things could be improved but you certainly have a midfield capable of challenging for top 4 and doing well in Europe. It's when Lallana is missing that we struggle, Gini is at his best linking the play between Can/Hendo and Lallana and the other two are decent at the 6 role but only when they aren't asked to be the main play maker.

So for me Lallana and Gini are nailed on when both fit which leaves us with either Can or Hendo. Neither are great defensively as a six but Henderson's athleticism means he edges ahead as the six at the moment. Which leaves in a bit of a quandary given Can's contract situation. He would be great to keep as a squad player but I can't really see that happening given his contract situation and Juve's interest.

Maybe it might be better to cash in on him in January and look to bring someone else in and bed them in for next season.

Yeah agree with most of that.

However I would like to see Henderson played in the Wijnaldum role sometime, Can as the 6 & one of Coutinho, Lallana or Ox as the link to attack.

[Eeyore]

I'm not gonna further derail the thread buddy, I literally have no idea why I didn't put you on ignore before  Your posting history is well established, if anyones remotely bothered about further reading into this little squabble they can just search for your posts in the old FSG thread and see the numerous managers (Kenny as well if I remember correctly) you've thrown under the bus in pursuit of slagging off the owners. But yeah, the thread has been derailed quite enough 

I can't back up my accusations.

Edited for you 

Now you are bringing Kenny into it as well. (well not making an actual accusation this time just an insinuation as they are much easier to wriggle out of)

[Eeyore]

Yeah agree with most of that.

However I would like to see Henderson played in the Wijnaldum role sometime, Can as the 6 & one of Coutinho, Lallana or Ox as the link to attack.

Yeh it will be interesting to see where Oxlade-Chamberlain ends up playing maybe in the kind of role Sterling enjoyed late on in 13/14.

[El Lobo]

Edited for you 

Now you are bringing Kenny into it as well. (well not making an actual accusation this time just an insinuation as they are much easier to wriggle out of)

I'm not gonna further derail the thread buddy, I literally have no idea why I didn't put you on ignore before  Your posting history is well established, if anyones remotely bothered about further reading into this little squabble they can just search for your posts in the old FSG thread and see the numerous managers (Kenny as well if I remember correctly) you've thrown under the bus in pursuit of slagging off the owners. But yeah, the thread has been derailed quite enough 

[BabuYagu]

My position on Henderson is very clear. I think he has some great attributes but struggles to dictate the play. For me he has always looked at his best when we have played a diamond and he is pulled out of the middle and given less responsibility to build the play and more license to press and to make forward runs.

Personally I think he is too passive in the crucial initial period after we win possession as a six and struggles as an 8 when teams park the bus. He either goes sideways or tries the hooked ball to the right. There are no one-two's, quick passes into feet or attempts to take on an opponent in the final third which is what you require from your 8's against a low block.

That for me is why he has been converted to a 6. The thing is though without a quicker delivery from the 6 position you end up high up the pitch with your 6 becoming an extra 8 but with even less protection of the back four. You also end up producing lower quality chances whilst being vulnerable at the back.

We play the wrong ball far too many times. Initially we are far too passive with Henderson being the worst culprit. When you win the ball back you have a small window of opportunity before the opposition get set. Far too often in that small period of time the ball goes into Henderson and the ball goes sideways or back to the centre backs. Far too often that happens when Henderson has oceans of space to turn into.

It's not his fault, he has his limitations and it something he is unlikely to be able to change at this stage of his career. The thing is though it is not uncommon in the English game, we tend to produce players who are dynamic when facing their opponents goal and given space to run into. Play a low block and make them work the ball and create opportunities and they simply don't have the tools to do it.

The thing is though please don't try and pass the buck and blame Klopp for that because it has been endemic within the English game for decades.

Agree with most of the observations you have made.

If you look at Gundogan, Sahin, Dahoud or Keita as being what Klopp would want from a #8 as they are all players he has signed (or tried to) for that specific role - they are all playing into and out of pressure which is essential as the man who is largely responsible for linking play in his system. I would argue they are also tactically smarter footballers that what he had available when he arrived.

In Milner, Can & Henderson, Klopp arrived here with three #8's who couldn't perform this crucial task and (IMO) is a large part of the reason for the system change after the Sevilla final. Watching our front four look completely detached from the rest of the side was the thing that lost us that final.

I think Ljinders may be a large influence in that new system as, off the ball, we move into a clear 3-4-3 shape and look to utilise passing diamonds to move the ball through the lines - it is all very Dutch. Thus the Gini signing makes sense as he is another very tactically smart football who can link play, albeit not at the level he would need from a sole #8 in his Dortmund 4-2-3-1 system.

[Eeyore]

Agree with most of the observations you have made.

If you look at Gundogan, Sahin, Dahoud or Keita as being what Klopp would want from a #8 as they are all players he has signed (or tried to) for that specific role - they are all playing into and out of pressure which is essential as the man who is largely responsible for linking play in his system. I would argue they are also tactically smarter footballers that what he had available when he arrived.

In Milner, Can & Henderson, Klopp arrived here with three #8's who couldn't perform this crucial task and (IMO) is a large part of the reason for the system change after the Sevilla final. Watching our front four look completely detached from the rest of the side was the thing that lost us that final.

I think Ljinders may be a large influence in that new system as, off the ball, we move into a clear 3-4-3 shape and look to utilise passing diamonds to move the ball through the lines - it is all very Dutch. Thus the Gini signing makes sense as he is another very tactically smart football who can link play, albeit not at the level he would need from a sole #8 in his Dortmund 4-2-3-1 system.

I think it is a great point about the tactical smartness of Milner, Can and Henderson. The irony is that all three want to play in the middle but haven't really been trusted there previously by their managers. Milner has stated time and time again about wanting to play centrally but at City was used as a wide midfield player and by Klopp as a full back.

Can has been used in a variety of positions from full back, to centre back to as part of a back three.

Henderson was used as a wide midfield player by Kenny, wasn't wanted by Rodgers initially, played as a wing back at times and has looked best for Rodgers as the right side of a diamond or as an athletic presser.

None of them have really been trusted previously as the players tasked with breaking teams down or as a natural 6. For me the midfield works with Gini and Lallana and one of Can/Hendo but it isn't perfect.

Next season will be interesting with Keita coming in. A three of Keita, Gini and Lallana would be incredibly fluid but far too lightweight. Which makes me wonder if we will see another tweak of the formation. 

[BabuYagu]

Yeh it will be interesting to see where Oxlade-Chamberlain ends up playing maybe in the kind of role Sterling enjoyed late on in 13/14.

At Dortmund, Klopp did have 1 proper winger in his side usually with either Kuba on the right or Grosskreutz on the left.

It seems he wants to always have 2 goalscorers and 3 providers on the pitch, regardless of system. At Dortmund that was Lewa & Reus being provided by Gundogan, Kagawa & Kuba. There were various other players added to, but usually you can identify the 2 scorers and 3 providers regardless of who played.

In our system, those 2 scorers are Salah & Mane. The providers are Firmino, Coutinho & Gini. Here is where it gets tricky though. With Salah & Mane functioning better attacking space that Firmino leaves rather than playing up against the center backs themselves directly, we end up with a narrow front 6 and the width coming almost exclusively from the full backs.

Therefore in the current 4-3-3 Chamberlain seems suited to one of the dual #8 positions, likely the 8/10 hybrid one given his lack of tactical nous compared the likes of Sahin & Gundogan. Whereas in a 4-2-3-1 he would seem more suited to the Kuba role, which is where we saw him at the weekend trying to be a provider to Solanke.

It will be interesting to see where Klopp goes from here. The 4-3-3 shares the four responsibilities of your central midfield (protect defence, link play, create, support attack) between 3 rather than two which means we don't need a pure #6 like Bender and a perfect #8 linking play like Gundogan. Gini seems suited to the 4-3-3 more than 4-2-3-1. Gini makes great late runs to support the attack and gets amongst the goals nicely. Also chips in with almost 10 assists in the league last season. Tactically he is good at plugging the gaps that Can & Henderson leave who are more inclined to move out of position towards threats than sit and protect the defence. Linking play is where he is weakest of the four tasks - which all Klopp's #8's tended to be Elite at. However, Lallana (and Chamberlain) put up elite level numbers at this task. You also have Coutinho, Keita and Lemar was targeted. Therefore we can likely play 4-3-3 without a pure #6 - or "proper DM" as we say on here with the 8s sharing the load of protecting the defence.

Then again, Solanke & Origi seem perfect highly mobile target men for a 4-2-3-1. Ox or Lemar (assuming Coutinho leaves) would be the one traditional winger. Firmino or Lallana are the central playmaker. Salah or Mane are the goalscoring wide player. Keita is the perfect #8 for the system. However, we lack the #6 to play that system now and we haven't looked like targeting one. Also I am not sure where that would leave Gini - which as one of his big signings would be an interesting situation.

I therefore wonder if we will see us using both systems in the future depending on player availability &/or opposition. That would mean needing to replace Can with a proper #6.

[BabuYagu]

I think it is a great point about the tactical smartness of Milner, Can and Henderson. The irony is that all three want to play in the middle but haven't really been trusted there previously by their managers. Milner has stated time and time again about wanting to play centrally but at City was used as a wide midfield player and by Klopp as a full back.

Can has been used in a variety of positions from full back, to centre back to as part of a back three.

Henderson was used as a wide midfield player by Kenny, wasn't wanted by Rodgers initially, played as a wing back at times and has looked best for Rodgers as the right side of a diamond or as an athletic presser.

None of them have really been trusted previously as the players tasked with breaking teams down or as a natural 6. For me the midfield works with Gini and Lallana and one of Can/Hendo but it isn't perfect.

Next season will be interesting with Keita coming in. A three of Keita, Gini and Lallana would be incredibly fluid but far too lightweight. Which makes me wonder if we will see another tweak of the formation.

#6 is one of the few positions Klopp can add height and physicality to this side without sacrificing anything in terms of pressing. Based on our setup for them, it looks like we need 4 outfield players to deal with players of 6'+ height for set pieces. With that midfield, you would likely need to have Gomez at right back which is a bigger problem for me as he is just too big to deal with agile and explosive wide players and gets beaten far too easily. So I would much rather we have Clyne/TAA and Henderson/A new taller #6. Then again if we had such a player and Keita on the pitch, 4-2-3-1 would make more sense to me than 4-3-3 which I think is a tactical hack to get around the problems our central midfielders presented him with when he arrived here.

[Curtisinho]

To me if we were going to get a true, shutdown 6 then Krychowiak would have been the ideal candidate. He's disciplined, hard working, talented and an absolute monster in the air. He would have been the perfect anchor and he's looked good since joining the PL. Somehow he ended up at West Brom. I really think he would have given our team a lot more solidity and freedom as our anchor.

[BabuYagu]

To me if we were going to get a true, shutdown 6 then Krychowiak would have been the ideal candidate. He's disciplined, hard working, talented and an absolute monster in the air. He would have been the perfect anchor and he's looked good since joining the PL. Somehow he ended up at West Brom. I really think he would have given our team a lot more solidity and freedom as our anchor.

We haven't been linked with a single #6 yet. Coupled with the signing of Gini,  it makes me think Klopp will persist with the 4-3-3 rather than shift to a 4-2-3-1. A lot of that depends on who (or if) he replaces Can for that #6 role. If it is Jorginho or Gini (who he was trailing for the role in pre-season) then you cannot see 4-2-3-1 working. I would also be concerned about our ability to deal with aerial transitions given how our center backs split and the #6 ends up dealing with a lot of long balls/clearances in his zone competing against strikers dropping off. Losing out on those balls has already cost us a few times this season. Reducing our competitiveness in the air further still would be a problem.

[austinlj4]

Aubemeyang, Mane and Salah would be fucking carnage.

With this three up top 

Would like to see that unleashed in the premier if we get Aubemeyang

[wemmick]

We look a lot better with a two-footed player in midfield. Gives the midfield a bit more unpredictability in possession.

[ac]

Maybe Milner is the short term answer till Keita arrives. He showed tonight what Hendo and Can have been lacking most of this season

[Fruit Salah]

We were able to play far higher up as a team tonight mainly because Can was playing at #6. It allowed the full backs to bomb on knowing they had protection behind them and the two advanced midfielders showed far more movement ahead also. Has to start as the deepest midfielder at Spurs.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Lastrador]

We were able to play far higher up as a team tonight mainly because Can was playing at #6. It allowed the full backs to bomb on knowing they had protection behind them and the two advanced midfielders showed far more movement ahead also. Has to start as the deepest midfielder at Spurs.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Suareznumber7]

Probably shouldn’t make too many judgments based on tonight’s game. That’s the weakest team we’re likely to play all year.

[Fiasco]

Probably shouldn’t make too many judgments based on tonight’s game. That’s the weakest team we’re likely to play all year.

We play Everton in December.

[Suareznumber7]

We play Everton in December.

Hahahaha

[SerbianScouser]

Maybe Milner is the short term answer till Keita arrives. He showed tonight what Hendo and Can have been lacking most of this season

He really is not, it's a huge mistake to take anything from the last night's game where our league cup team would have thoroughly dominated. In almost all other games where he was used as 8 he was nothing short of terrible. He can't take care of the ball under pressure, playing in tight spaces is not his thing and he's not overly creative. If we can get Ox in the mix somehow it would be the best solution as we always need to have either Phil or Lallana in midfield for the sake of balance.

[El Lobo]

It might be an idea to give Milner a few more games in that position before declaring he's the solution to all our problems. He was excellent last night btw.

But comparing any performances last night to our game at the weekend is like saying someone who beat Audley Harrison is a better boxer than someone who drew against Wladimir Klitschko.

I'd go Hendo, Milner and Gini for the weekend because I think they'll do well against Spurs midfielders. But its so daft to be talking about performances last night proving anything, because they were a terrible side!

[BigAl24]

We can't say United parked the bus and also claim that they didn't play because of our midfield. United hardly tried to play at all.

A clear and very visible problem today was linking defence and attack. United kept us in our own half for way too long, because our midfielders seemed incapable of taking some sort of initiative. Henderson kept passing it back to our centre-backs and Can/Wijnaldum showed no movement whatsoever.

There is not much to discuss when we have 3 all-rounders who don't excel at anything and are way too similar to each other starting for us. Absolutely no creativity, flair, courage. I hate these 'modern' centre-mids.

And I know 'mentality' is something vague and too subjective but I sense that especially Gini and Jordan are just weak. They're afraid, they hide and they're not at all the players to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and turn things around. We are team of softies, and our captain summarises this.

Looking at games last season though, Arsenal, City etc - Gini is one of the best big game players we have. That's not a sign of weakness.

[El Lobo]

Looking at games last season though, Arsenal, City etc - Gini is one of the best big game players we have. That's not a sign of weakness.

I think he's a pretty consistent 6 or 7/10 player, which is pretty good in the big games but doesn't really look like he's doing enough when we have a lot more of the ball and expectation to make things happen. I don't think his game particularly drops away from home, or goes up in big games etc. I just think that's the sort of player he is right now.

Needs to do more.

[Block 203]

He really is not, it's a huge mistake to take anything from the last night's game where our league cup team would have thoroughly dominated. In almost all other games where he was used as 8 he was nothing short of terrible. He can't take care of the ball under pressure, playing in tight spaces is not his thing and he's not overly creative. If we can get Ox in the mix somehow it would be the best solution as we always need to have either Phil or Lallana in midfield for the sake of balance.

What a load of shite. Milner has always done well in midfield. He is so underrated by some of our fans it's unreal

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

What a load of shite. Milner has always done well in midfield. He is so underrated by some of our fans it's unreal

He really didn't shine in our midfield when he first signed, sorry but he was poor. Might have been how we used him, or who he was partnered with but he was average at best when he played there in his first season.

[Block 203]

He really didn't shine in our midfield when he first signed, sorry but he was poor. Might have been how we used him, or who he was partnered with but he was average at best when he played there in his first season.

The whole team was poor then so I'll agree on that, but I mean throughout his career. If he plays there in our current set up he will do at least as well as can Henderson and gini, of that I've got no doubt

[LallanaInPyjamas]

He really didn't shine in our midfield when he first signed, sorry but he was poor. Might have been how we used him, or who he was partnered with but he was average at best when he played there in his first season.

This seems to have become a fixed truth when in reality he had good games, average games and bad games like any player. He was also being asked to cover a hell of a lot of ground - particularly when he partnered Can in a midfield two - which made him appear more tactically undisciplined than he actually was.

The title from his thread came from when he was playing in central midfield though and was racking up the assists, largely by drifting wide and delivering superb crosses. I mean, he had 7 assists in 4 games from central midfield at one point, and they weren't irrelevant games either. Two were the Dortmund ties and one was the derby.

It's a mystery to me why we haven't seen him used in this midfield three more often because both his and his team-mates' natural movements complement it very well. Rather than relying on inexperienced right-backs to provide all of our width, for example, Milner is the sort of midfielder who will overlap Salah when he drifts inside. As he did to great effect for Coutinho's goal last night.

[BigAl24]

I think he's a pretty consistent 6 or 7/10 player, which is pretty good in the big games but doesn't really look like he's doing enough when we have a lot more of the ball and expectation to make things happen. I don't think his game particularly drops away from home, or goes up in big games etc. I just think that's the sort of player he is right now.

Needs to do more.

I agree - he definitely needs to do more I just disagree with the assertion in the post I replied to that he was weak. Mentally you aren't weak if you're one of our best big game players. I genuinely do think he steps up, but it's the other games, regardless of whether they are home or away where he needs to do more.

[LiamG]

our midfield needed that performance from milner, hopefully the rest of the midfield will all up their game now due to the threat of milner taking their place