Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[JD.]

We have Keita coming in so that really eases the 'replacing Coutinho' thing if that happens which it probably will.

Hopefully Jurgen has eyes on who else he wants to add to that midfield though. I'd be looking at trying to build a genuinely balanced midfield with some energy and fight in it. The Chelsea midfield of about a decade ago was always a tough one to beat. Players like Lampard, Essien and Makelele. You had Lampard as the attacking goal threat, Essien as the all rounder and Makelele as the out and out defensive minded player.

We have Keita who would be the Essien of the group I would imagine. Now if we could find a goalscorer and a protector then we would have a genuinely balance midfield.

[Cormack Snr]

Not bothered if he goes. He is overrated here. Its not great losing out on a fair chunk of money but as a player I dont think he is great.

He's not even overrated, never met anyone who thinks he is great. Saying that, out of the say fifteen players in our squad we only have two who would get in a top team and both will probably be gone by this time next year.

[redmark]

But a lot of time he’s pressing by himself leaving massive holes for the opposing team to go through.  Pressing, if done correctly, is done by a group of players around the ball.  Not one player trying to do it on his own.  So, either he is pressing at the wrong moments or his teammates are not following the managers instructions. 

Or we're pressing in a different way than we've come to expect. All season, our midfield has flattened out into a containing shape, and then we've seen one - and only one - midfielder (the closest in a straight vertical line, so if it's central, Henderson) press an opposition midfielder turning on the ball. The idea presumably is to rush the pass, triggering a 'pressing cascade' as one opposition player after another receives a hurried, bobbling or inaccurate pass until the ball is won, an error forced, or the ball is lumped forward to escape the pressure.

Essentially we're pressing as a team, but one at a time. If the initial midfield rush fails, our shape should be able to cope with the player beating that pressure. If it's successful (on it's own terms), the next player presses the new recipient, and so on.

[Giono]

Our game management under Klopp has always been very suspect, specially with the players he has. We hardly ever see out the half or the game when we are leading.

We lack composure and cool heads in midfield to see out games.

[Suareznumber7]

Or we're pressing in a different way than we've come to expect. All season, our midfield has flattened out into a containing shape, and then we've seen one - and only one - midfielder (the closest in a straight vertical line, so if it's central, Henderson) press an opposition midfielder turning on the ball. The idea presumably is to rush the pass, triggering a 'pressing cascade' as one opposition player after another receives a hurried, bobbling or inaccurate pass until the ball is won, an error forced, or the ball is lumped forward to escape the pressure.

Essentially we're pressing as a team, but one at a time. If the initial midfield rush fails, our shape should be able to cope with the player beating that pressure. If it's successful (on it's own terms), the next player presses the new recipient, and so on.

What you are describing isn’t what I would call “pressing”.  I would call what you are describing as putting pressure on the ball which every team in the world does and is a basic defensive principle.  Pressing, in my mind, is a group of players trying to win the ball back when it enters a certain area or after a specific event. 

Putting pressure on the ball is a simple move designed to force the attacker to play sideways or backwards.  Why I call what Hendo is doing on his own as “pressing” is because he rushes out to try to win the ball which has been resulting in attackers going by him easily as he’s doing this by himself.  He’s not really pressuring the ball and containing the attacker as much as he’s actively trying to win the ball.  In a lot of instances, where we drop into a good defensive shape, all that is needed from the pressuring player is for him to make play predictable and get the attacker to move the ball in a “safe” area for us. 

If a team presses “one at a time” you are asking for a lot of trouble as hole after hole will open up for the attacking team to play through. 

[redmark]

What you are describing isn’t what I would call “pressing”.  I would call what you are describing as putting pressure on the ball which every team in the world does and is a basic defensive principle.  Pressing, in my mind, is a group of players trying to win the ball back when it enters a certain area or after a specific event. 

Putting pressure on the ball is a simple move designed to force the attacker to play sideways or backwards.  Why I call what Hendo is doing on his own as “pressing” is because he rushes out to try to win the ball which has been resulting in attackers going by him easily as he’s doing this by himself.  He’s not really pressuring the ball and containing the attacker as much as he’s actively trying to win the ball.  In a lot of instances, where we drop into a good defensive shape, all that is needed from the pressuring player is for him to make play predictable and get the attacker to move the ball in a “safe” area for us. 

If a team presses “one at a time” you are asking for a lot of trouble as hole after hole will open up for the attacking team to play through. 

But it's not really something to criticise Henderson for, because all three central midfielders have been doing it, all season. The closest vertical midfielder closes the man in possession.

[Suareznumber7]

We have Keita coming in so that really eases the 'replacing Coutinho' thing if that happens which it probably will.

Hopefully Jurgen has eyes on who else he wants to add to that midfield though. I'd be looking at trying to build a genuinely balanced midfield with some energy and fight in it. The Chelsea midfield of about a decade ago was always a tough one to beat. Players like Lampard, Essien and Makelele. You had Lampard as the attacking goal threat, Essien as the all rounder and Makelele as the out and out defensive minded player.

We have Keita who would be the Essien of the group I would imagine. Now if we could find a goalscorer and a protector then we would have a genuinely balance midfield.

In your example, if Keita is the all rounder then Coutinho would be the goalscorer.  What we would be missing is the defensive minded player. 

[Suareznumber7]

But it's not really something to criticise Henderson for, because all three central midfielders have been doing it, all season. The closest vertical midfielder closes the man in possession.

Yes, as that is a basic defensive principle.  What I was criticizing Hendo for was rushing out to try and win the ball rather then contain the attacker.  If he went out and contained the attacker he’d be doing his job but when he goes out to try and win the ball by himself he gets beat and that opens up holes for the attackers to play through. 

[BabuYagu]

Sorry Babu, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with the pass selection (or the weight) at all. It isn't a risky pass, it is a simple one between the lines that you see played lots of times per game. It isn't a pass to release Sturridge or to create something immediately, it is a ball for him to either it pass is it to Moreno on his left or to hold up and wait for a midfielder run at the center, probably a first time pass to Moreno was the intention of the play, you can see Alberto starting to move when the ball is being recieved by Dani.

A player of Sturridge quality shouldn't miss control a simple ball like that, it can happen but you can't let the thought of "Oh, he might miss-control it and we will be in trouble" cloud a players desicion making, especially when it is a simple ball to a players feet; That just leads to ultra conservative passing (something that Henderson is already accused enough) and the midfielders never breaking the lines. If a player miss control and loses the ball like that whenever a team is in transition it will always be problematic. The only fault I find from the midfield in that play is that when Sturridge loses they weren't aggressive enough in closing Shelvey or obstructing the passing lanes.

Edit:



Besides it doesn't look like Henderson have a lot of options either, the passing lanes to his left are closed by two Newcastle players, so he has to go through Sturridge to get the ball to Moreno. He could have gone for the pass to Gini too but considering his body shape and speed on the ball is probably even more risky than playing that pass to Daniel.

Watch the passage of play again. We are setting up a passing diamond on the left. That means that Henderson knows for a fact that two normally central players will be on the left flank. Also when we setup this combination, Salah moves to isolate the right back for a switch as the defence switches across to deal with the combination on the left.

At the point Henderon receives the ball, he is facing the left flank. Coutinho is the right pass that has space in front of him to play in Moreno who is also in space. Instead he turns into an area he knows (or should) that we are numerically disadvantaged and plays it to Sturridge. A pass if he completes, we will gain nothing really as all he can really do there is look to lay off to someone else - and everyone is on the left flank. If he loses it, we are fucked though with an immediate overload through the middle.

You cannot read just the pass to Sturridge on it's own - and decide if it's a good, simple, well weighted pass - but instead our entire shape preceding it and what we were aiming to do and therefore where we were weak. We were weak in the middle - so we cannot play the ball there. One of the rules of gegenpressing is not to play into opposition overloads. You play where you are numerically strong or into space. Either way, if you lose the ball you can press. We lost the ball in a position where the guy had 7 passing options and only Henderson able to press. That mistake falls on whoever loses the ball and whoever decides to play it to him.

And this is the third time we have given the ball away in an identical game situation this season. All three times it has been Henderson and all three times it almost resulted in conceding a goal. So if those two warning signs haven't taught it, hopefully this goal will.

As for his options, wind it back before he turned away from those options. As mentioned before, if we have a combination setup to create an overload on the left with Coutinho, Mane, Moreno and then him as the central point, then that means we are strong left, weak middle. He turned away from that into the middle where they heavily outnumber us and the only option is Sturridge... which he knows as he just saw most of our attacking players on the left flank a second before.

[redmark]

Yes, as that is a basic defensive principle.  What I was criticizing Hendo for was rushing out to try and win the ball rather then contain the attacker.  If he went out and contained the attacker he’d be doing his job but when he goes out to try and win the ball by himself he gets beat and that opens up holes for the attackers to play through. 

But (and I get your point about the dangers), I don't think it is simply the basic defensive principle of containing the man in possession. We've seen all of the midfielders running much further than that would normally entail, specifically to force a hurried pass - or if the player doesn't pass, challenge for the ball; and not only from Henderson. (I remember this coming up very early in the season when people questioned why Henderson did so a couple of times, rather than Can/Wijnaldum, and the trigger seems to be clearly closest player vertically, and kind of counters the idea that - defensively - Henderson is our 'deepest' midfielder). Probably needs some more detailed analysis, but it's appeared to me as a hybrid, a compromise, of what we've seen previously under Klopp with a system that demands less pressing from everyone all the time. Perhaps riskier in individual moments, but allowing a shape that should cope with a failure, while placing lower physical demands overall over a prolonged period of time.

[killer-heels]

In your example, if Keita is the all rounder then Coutinho would be the goalscorer.  What we would be missing is the defensive minded player. 

The assumption he is making is that Coutinho won't be here next season.

[JD.]

In your example, if Keita is the all rounder then Coutinho would be the goalscorer.  What we would be missing is the defensive minded player.

Coutinho isn't really a goalscoring midfielder in the mould of a Lampard though. And I'm assuming Coutinho goes next summer as I can't see Jurgen being arsed to try fight to keep him again.

I'm thinking more of a genuine midfielder who gets goals than a forward moved back like I would say Coutinho is. You know more of a Yaya Toure, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard type player who is a genuine midfielder than a #10 being moved in there like Coutinho, David Silva or De Bruyne. Someone like a Goretzka for example. A real midfielder comfortable with all the midfield stuff but who can also get forward and score. 5 last season for him, 2 in 7 so far this, and 4 in 10 for Germany. They are obviously incredible hard to find.

[Suareznumber7]

But (and I get your point about the dangers), I don't think it is simply the basic defensive principle of containing the man in possession. We've seen all of the midfielders running much further than that would normally entail, specifically to force a hurried pass - or if the player doesn't pass, challenge for the ball; and not only from Henderson. (I remember this coming up very early in the season when people questioned why Henderson did so a couple of times, rather than Can/Wijnaldum, and the trigger seems to be clearly closest player vertically, and kind of counters the idea that - defensively - Henderson is our 'deepest' midfielder). Probably needs some more detailed analysis, but it's appeared to me as a hybrid, a compromise, of what we've seen previously under Klopp with a system that demands less pressing from everyone all the time. Perhaps riskier in individual moments, but allowing a shape that should cope with a failure, while placing lower physical demands overall over a prolonged period of time.

I think we’re talking about two different situations actually.  Or maybe two different phases of play. 

I do agree that it’s pretty obvious that we’ve changed how we press this year and the stats that came out yesterday show that to be true.   It was really evident for the first time in the Arsenal match as we dropped into a medium block and pressed them when they entered specific areas.  I think, depending on the opposition, we’ll press in different areas of the field this year.  What will be really important is that all players are on the same page so those gaps don’t open up. 

[Suareznumber7]

The assumption he is making is that Coutinho won't be here next season.

Ah, got it. 

[tubby]

Thinking about it, I don't think Klopp has ever played Coutinho as a 10, has he?  Usually either as one of 3 in the middle or the wide left attacker.

[Suareznumber7]

Coutinho isn't really a goalscoring midfielder in the mould of a Lampard though. And I'm assuming Coutinho goes next summer as I can't see Jurgen being arsed to try fight to keep him again.

I'm thinking more of a genuine midfielder who gets goals than a forward moved back like I would say Coutinho is. You know more of a Yaya Toure, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard type player who is a genuine midfielder than a #10 being moved in there like Coutinho, David Silva or De Bruyne. Someone like a Goretzka for example. A real midfielder comfortable with all the midfield stuff but who can also get forward and score. 5 last season for him, 2 in 7 so far this, and 4 in 10 for Germany. They are obviously incredible hard to find.

I guess it depends on whether or not Can and Coutinho are still with us next year or not.  Or, maybe Keita becomes that scoring midfielder and Hendo the all rounder while we bring in a more defensive midfielder.  Who knows really?  And there’s a long ways to go before Klopp has to make those decisions.

 

[Giono]

That’s the biggest issue at the moment I think.  Hendo ran forward into that space leaving a huge hole in front of our cb’s.  If you watch back the goal there was absolutely no reason to make that movement.  We literally just scored and had 10 minutes to go before halftime.  We need more intelligence in that moment.  Hendo should simply sit in, relax, and make sure to protect our cb’s so we go into halftime 1-0 up. 

I remember that just before Newcastle scored the commentator on my feed talked about how we had lost our nervousness and were playing with confidence after finally scoring a goal. I remember that because at the same moment I saw Henderson playing a bit wildly and I thought the commentator was not watching the same match I was.

Klopp doesn't want a DM it seems. And I don't think we necessarily need one with the way we press. But we do need a cool headed number 6. Just somebody who is spatially aware and doesn't abandon the defenders completely. Someone to get the ball to our number 8s and wingbacks tidily and quickly to start our attacks and to take pressure off of our CDs. And somebody that doesn't lose their cool whether we are up and looking to build...or down and looking to chase.

[Giono]

Given Henderson is regularly pushing up to press from midfield I'd say it's more an instruction coming from Klopp rather than Henderson just ignoring instructions

But in this match I don't remember Henderson doing this before we scored, several times after we scored, and don't remember him doing it after they scored. Could that be trained behaviour that when we are up Henderson is to surge forward? I think it is instinctual for Henderson. he wants to play as an 8.

I remember the early days of last season when Henderson was first playing as the 6. Late in matches Lucas would be subbed on and Henderson would move forward in midfield and he'd be buzzing around having fun as we tried to rack up the score. But that was when Henderson was a bit more conservative in the role as he was just learning it.

[BabuYagu]

Besides it doesn't look like Henderson have a lot of options either, the passing lanes to his left are closed by two Newcastle players, so he has to go through Sturridge to get the ball to Moreno. He could have gone for the pass to Gini too but considering his body shape and speed on the ball is probably even more risky than playing that pass to Daniel.

This is the image before he turns. Yes, after he turns he has no options, which is the point I am making, why turn. If you can see 3 players on the left flank and he is on the ball then he knows the following:-
- Gini will be moving to be behind the ball
- We are trying to setup a passing diamond combination on the left
- Therefore we are strong right now on the left
- Therefore we are weak in the middle as central players have moved wide
- Salah will see the passing diamond and move to isolate the right back

We have basically vacated the middle of the pitch. Now if I know this because it's a recurring pattern of play - best examples to see are in the Palace & Arsenal games where we used them countless times to overload the left - then it has to be something we practice. We aren't accidentally setting up this shape numerous times across different games. Therefore if it is something we practice to the point that I know where all our players are when it's happening on the pitch, then Henderson must likewise know this.

But even if we are generous and say it's not something we practise, here he is looking and must see Coutinho, Mane & Moreno outside Newcastles shape - that means he should likewise know that inside their shape we have less players than them. That is just basic mathematics. If he knows where Mane, Coutinho & Moreno are, then the only players he doesn't know from the front 6 are Gini, Salah & Sturridge. Gini he should expect is behind the ball, that's standard for our midfield. We must always have someone level or behind the ball. He can therefore only reasonably expect Salah & Sturridge to be inside their shape - which will be two banks of four. As mentioned before though, Salah moves to isolate the left back. So we end up with just one.

There is no reason to turn inside there.

[BabuYagu]

Coutinho isn't really a goalscoring midfielder in the mould of a Lampard though. And I'm assuming Coutinho goes next summer as I can't see Jurgen being arsed to try fight to keep him again.

I'm thinking more of a genuine midfielder who gets goals than a forward moved back like I would say Coutinho is. You know more of a Yaya Toure, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard type player who is a genuine midfielder than a #10 being moved in there like Coutinho, David Silva or De Bruyne. Someone like a Goretzka for example. A real midfielder comfortable with all the midfield stuff but who can also get forward and score. 5 last season for him, 2 in 7 so far this, and 4 in 10 for Germany. They are obviously incredible hard to find.

Gini got 9 from midfield last season.

[BabuYagu]

Thinking about it, I don't think Klopp has ever played Coutinho as a 10, has he?  Usually either as one of 3 in the middle or the wide left attacker.

Depends if you look at it in terms of the starting graphic of the team shape, or where he tends to operate on the pitch. Coutinho's average position in the game when he plays on the left is that of a #10. Him and Firmino end up operating between the lines of midfield and defence as a #10 would. When Lallana plays with them, he does the same stepping up from midfield.

[Pradan]

Ah, got it.

Every Liverpool fan should really be aware of that.

We won't be in a position of strength to keep him next summer considering we won't be challenging for any major titles this season. That was the point of keeping him - challenge for major honours and at least show him that he can fulfil his ambitions here.

That's not happening so the only right thing to do is grant him his wish.

Keita is more than an able replacement anyway. We have 3 or 4 other issues elsewhere to fix. One in trying to sign Van Dijk - who might not be so convinced with us this time.

[JD.]

Gini got 9 from midfield last season.

6. And I'd also prefer someone who contribute to the rest of the game as well

[Giono]

Watch the passage of play again. We are setting up a passing diamond on the left. That means that Henderson knows for a fact that two normally central players will be on the left flank. Also when we setup this combination, Salah moves to isolate the right back for a switch as the defence switches across to deal with the combination on the left.

At the point Henderon receives the ball, he is facing the left flank. Coutinho is the right pass that has space in front of him to play in Moreno who is also in space. Instead he turns into an area he knows (or should) that we are numerically disadvantaged and plays it to Sturridge. A pass if he completes, we will gain nothing really as all he can really do there is look to lay off to someone else - and everyone is on the left flank. If he loses it, we are fucked though with an immediate overload through the middle.

You cannot read just the pass to Sturridge on it's own - and decide if it's a good, simple, well weighted pass - but instead our entire shape preceding it and what we were aiming to do and therefore where we were weak. We were weak in the middle - so we cannot play the ball there. One of the rules of gegenpressing is not to play into opposition overloads. You play where you are numerically strong or into space. Either way, if you lose the ball you can press. We lost the ball in a position where the guy had 7 passing options and only Henderson able to press. That mistake falls on whoever loses the ball and whoever decides to play it to him.

And this is the third time we have given the ball away in an identical game situation this season. All three times it has been Henderson and all three times it almost resulted in conceding a goal. So if those two warning signs haven't taught it, hopefully this goal will.

As for his options, wind it back before he turned away from those options. As mentioned before, if we have a combination setup to create an overload on the left with Coutinho, Mane, Moreno and then him as the central point, then that means we are strong left, weak middle. He turned away from that into the middle where they heavily outnumber us and the only option is Sturridge... which he knows as he just saw most of our attacking players on the left flank a second before.

Why would he turn away from that option though? For what reason? What's your guess?


Did he see the pass to Sturridge as the 'key pass' that leads directly to a goal?

[Suareznumber7]

Every Liverpool fan should really be aware of that.

We won't be in a position of strength to keep him next summer considering we won't be challenging for any major titles this season. That was the point of keeping him - challenge for major honours and at least show him that he can fulfil his ambitions here.

That's not happening so the only right thing to do is grant him his wish.

Keita is more than an able replacement anyway. We have 3 or 4 other issues elsewhere to fix. One in trying to sign Van Dijk - who might not be so convinced with us this time.

We are actually in a very strong position to keep him next summer.  He’ll still have 4 years left on his contract.  If we don’t want to sell him, we won’t. 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Lallana, the quicker he comes the better.

[BabuYagu]

6. And I'd also prefer someone who contribute to the rest of the game as well

It's your opinion he doesn't contribute. If it was true there is no way he would get on the pitch.

[JD.]

It's your opinion he doesn't contribute. If it was true there is no way he would get on the pitch.

It's the opinion of a lot of people he contributes very little to the team.

What isn't opinion is he didn't score 9 as you claimed.

[redmark]

It's your opinion he doesn't contribute. If it was true there is no way he would get on the pitch.

He contributed last season, in open play - his average number of passes was the same (45, to within a decimal place) as Coutinho, Lallana, Can. Lower than Henderson, the CBs, Milner, which would be expected on how we played and Milner being allowed the ball; higher than Firmino/Mane.

He is way down on those numbers this season, though (32). Is he contributing in other ways, through movement and workrate, to satisfy Klopp? Apparently, though there were signs on Sunday of some frustration for once with a couple of his playing decisions.

[BabuYagu]

Why would he turn away from that option though? For what reason? What's your guess?


Did he see the pass to Sturridge as the 'key pass' that leads directly to a goal?

He doesn't scan at any point from Coutinho receiving the ball, him moving towards Coutinho, Coutinho passing to Mane and then Mane passing it back to him. So all he knows to be true is what is in front of him.

[BabuYagu]

It's the opinion of a lot of people he contributes very little to the team.

What isn't opinion is he didn't score 9 as you claimed.

Apologies, confused his goal and assist numbers. Scored 6, assisted 9.

[Pradan]

We are actually in a very strong position to keep him next summer.  He’ll still have 4 years left on his contract.  If we don’t want to sell him, we won’t.

Nah that'll be bordering on cruelty if for the second time we denied him the move.

Resisting at the first attempt is fine but after that, it's wrong to keep him against his will.

[Chris~]

But a lot of time he’s pressing by himself leaving massive holes for the opposing team to go through.  Pressing, if done correctly, is done by a group of players around the ball.  Not one player trying to do it on his own.  So, either he is pressing at the wrong moments or his teammates are not following the managers instructions.

Or the managers instructions are causing a break down.

[BabuYagu]

He contributed last season, in open play - his average number of passes was the same (45, to within a decimal place) as Coutinho, Lallana, Can. Lower than Henderson, the CBs, Milner, which would be expected on how we played and Milner being allowed the ball; higher than Firmino/Mane.

He is way down on those numbers this season, though (32). Is he contributing in other ways, through movement and workrate, to satisfy Klopp? Apparently, though there were signs on Sunday of some frustration for once with a couple of his playing decisions.

I remember in the old level 3 thread someone (I think Royhendo) was quoting from (I think it was) Sacchi about the importance of tactical players. We think of them as piano carriers - or water carrier, something Deschamps was famously called.

Basically - if you have a team of players like, say, Lampard, you end up with little tactical discipline as he is playing instinctively. Therefore the team will lack a stable platform. If you have a team with all Deschamps, you have lots of tactical discipline and the team will always look stable. But everything will be deliberate, methodical, predictable even.

However, coaches will prefer the latter to the former. They will want players they can rely on tactically to give the few flair players a platform to play on. It's when players aren't doing their job tactically, in key roles, they are in trouble with the coach. If the number #6 is getting ahead of the ball too often, maybe even setting up, or even scoring a goal in the process - statistically that's great for him but what problems is his actions causing the side?

This has been the crux of my problem with Can this season. He will gladly run at 35km/h the length of the pitch to support Salah for the Arsenal goal - maybe in the hope of being available for a square pass or a rebound. But going the other way he is walking way too frequently when out of position. And it is happening every game.

The other consequence of a midfield that isn't functioning is that the more tactical players spend their time plugging holes and moving around into spaces than playing their own game. Whereas in a functioning midfield - that stable platform is there for them all to get on the ball and play.

When the midfield isn't functioning, tactically, it's better to look for the players who are moving to plug gaps and the players who are leaving gaps than look at what they are doing with the ball. People running out to make tackles and interceptions leaves spaces. People getting ahead of the ball leaves spaces. Someone has to be plugging those spaces. More often than not it seems that is Gini so far this season. Again for the Newcastle goal today, he is the only guy in midfield plugging the spaces. Sure he could have made a deep run beyond Sturridge to give another option, or moved up beside Henderson to be a passing option - is that the right thing to do though? We know Klopp wants at least one midfielder behind the ball and another at least level with the ball to offer midfield stability. Gini seems to be the one trying to give us that stability rather than get on the ball himself.

If you watch our midfield performance in terms of space rather than the ball, it's noticeable the work Gini is doing to try and keep the midfield compact and central. Last season he didn't have to do much as Lallana & Henderson were on the same wavelength as him. We need to get back to that. I don't mean in terms of personnel - I couldn't give a fuck whose names are on the teamsheet. I just want to have that tactical discipline again in there.

[redmark]

If you watch our midfield performance in terms of space rather than the ball, it's noticeable the work Gini is doing to try and keep the midfield compact and central. Last season he didn't have to do much as Lallana & Henderson were on the same wavelength as him. We need to get back to that. I don't mean in terms of personnel - I couldn't give a fuck whose names are on the teamsheet. I just want to have that tactical discipline again in there.

By your own previous descriptions of Wijnaldum's play though, we're missing him providing the link through advanced midfield areas to move the ball forwards. We're not playing neat passing triangles through midfield; and while that was understandable in Coutinho's absence (the reason discussed then being that Gini was struggling to emulate Coutinho's role), we've not seen him successfully back to his own role against Newcastle - admittedly, it's a minimal sample size. On Sunday, our means of playing the ball forwards was a) give it to Coutinho, b) play it wide, c) go deep to one of the front three.

The biggest problem (creatively) in recent games has been the tempo of passing in moving the opposition around. Too slow, too sideways, too predictable. Whoever's in the #8 role needs to provide that function, linking up with Coutinho and Firmino in that central attacking triangle, to pull the opposition out of shape and create it for Mane/Salah. It's odd, in that we (or he) don't appear to be playing to the player's strengths.

I get the importance of space, as well as the ball. Wijnaldum (at the moment) needs to remember the ball is important too; or someone else (almost certainly not Can) will be doing it instead.

[Suareznumber7]

Nah that'll be bordering on cruelty if for the second time we denied him the move.

Resisting at the first attempt is fine but after that, it's wrong to keep him against his will.

Cruelty?  That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read on here in a long time.

[ANFIELDGATES]

is it time to try a 3-5-2 formation with 3 centrehalves with coutinho and salah wide and can gini and hendo in middle with mane and bobby up top?something had to change as the midfield are not doing their job in protecting the back 2 as happened yesterday.just before shelvey makes that pass you can see theres only matip and lovren in our half.

[IgorBobbins]

Babu - I swear Gini could literally stand on the centre circle having a piss and eating an orange all game, and you'd say he was marking space between the lines or working in transitions or something. 

Yes I'm being facetious - but I do find it funny that you mostly seem to absolve him of much of the blame, while having no problem criticising others (e.g. Can).  To be fair to you, Klopp seems to share your blind spot when it comes to Gini - so you're in good company! So whereas I see a player not making himself available for a pass, taking too many touches on the ball, mis-controlling, playing safe/inaccurate passes.....you see a player who's technically and tactically excellent, one who's not the reason we often lack control and/or creativity in midfield.

I don't want to start an argument with you - you've obviously done a lot more research than me on the tactical/statistical side of football.  It's just that I've never seen so much tactical analysis or excuses given about a player who's just.....quite average (in my opinion, of course). I find it baffling, that's all! 

[BabuYagu]

By your own previous descriptions of Wijnaldum's play though, we're missing him providing the link through advanced midfield areas to move the ball forwards. We're not playing neat passing triangles through midfield; and while that was understandable in Coutinho's absence (the reason discussed then being that Gini was struggling to emulate Coutinho's role), we've not seen him successfully back to his own role against Newcastle - admittedly, it's a minimal sample size. On Sunday, our means of playing the ball forwards was a) give it to Coutinho, b) play it wide, c) go deep to one of the front three.

The biggest problem (creatively) in recent games has been the tempo of passing in moving the opposition around. Too slow, too sideways, too predictable. Whoever's in the #8 role needs to provide that function, linking up with Coutinho and Firmino in that central attacking triangle, to pull the opposition out of shape and create it for Mane/Salah. It's odd, in that we (or he) don't appear to be playing to the player's strengths.

I get the importance of space, as well as the ball. Wijnaldum (at the moment) needs to remember the ball is important too; or someone else (almost certainly not Can) will be doing it instead.

Agree with everything you said about our tempo and the actions (or lack of) of the #8. Against Spartak I noted how Can didn't link up with any of our front 4. It was the same here with Gini (bar Salah who he played in a few times during the game). But he didn't link up at all well with Coutinho. More worryingly I only saw him as a passing option when Migs, Gomez, Lovren or Matip had the ball. When Henderson/Coutinho had the ball, his movements were in relation to opening or closing spaces rather than offering himself for a pass.

I agree with what I stated about his role in the absence of Lallana. Nobody is perfect in our midfield at the moment. Unless you see their roles as being similar to Dortmund where Coutinho is the Kagawa with almost complete freedom with Bender & Gundogan existing to give him the platform to have that space and linking the play. In which case Coutinho is doing fine, Henderson is linking but not giving the stable platform. Gini is giving the platform, but not linking (but has in the past). Can is doing neither. Historically, Milner was similar to Gini now in giving a stable platform but struggled to link play. So whatever combination we are trying at the moment isn't working.

So my comment was more about how the players are trying to solve the problems that are appearing. Gini seems to be trying to close up spaces. Henderson seems to be running a lot to cover more ground because of the spaces.

I was tending to watch more off the ball than on the ball with the game at the weekend with our midfield - as I think off the ball you see more of the problems. So I can tell you what Gini is doing, I don't know if it's instructed, the correct thing to do, or if it is contributing to the problems.

Off the ball he was trying to focus on compactness and moving in relation to Henderson. Last season he was moving in relation to Lallana - thus becoming the link man between the back 6 and the front 4. So when Henderson was stepping up into midfield - e.g. the Newcastle goal, he moves to become the #6.

At other times he was moving in relation to Atsu off the ball - positioning himself nearby to deal with his agility and pace threats as Gomez so far looks ill equipped to deal with such a player 1-v-1. There were two good examples where this prevented counter attacks through Atsu when he got the ball in behind Gomez.

Another good example of something he was doing was moving in front of Atsu when Coutinho was on the ball deep, then narrowing in behind another Newcastle player. This makes him unavailable for a pass, but also means he is now being marked by 2 players creating a free player elsewhere - in this case Gomez as when Atsu would track him it was opening up Gomez on the right flank for an easy pass.

What he wasn't doing was moving in relation to the ball - which I know is important for Rodgers sides. He needs to move to open up an angle for the pass. What I don't know is if moving to open up space for passes is important enough? Why he isn't getting on the ball more himself? Is he purely playing the game in terms of space at the moment? Is this instructed to stop the holes appearing that we have seen all season? Is it working aside from the goal?

Basically... I'm looking at his function in a unit rather than looking at his numbers in isolation, which are shite. Based purely on those numbers, you wouldn't want him in the side. But given he is playing, let's assume Klopp is happy (enough) with him and work out what he is doing off the ball that is contributing enough to keep him in the side. Those are the things I see him doing which have no statistical value. Even on the Atsu counters he didn't make a tackle or win the ball, just chased him, forced him to turn around and the ball went backwards ending the counter. A statistical value of 0 - and yet without it would could have had another Vardy goal like we saw at Leicester where the winger gets away from Gomez and crosses.

The alternative possibility is that he isn't doing enough, Klopp isn't happy with it - yet is the only midfielder we have who thinks of space first (Although I think Milner does as well). Dropping him causes a problem as the alternatives (Can, Grujic, Milner) would cause us further problems in terms our compactness which is the reason our midfield is being too easy to play through at the moment. This results in him being practically undroppable despite his performances being way below what is required.

[BabuYagu]

Babu - I swear Gini could literally stand on the centre circle having a piss and eating an orange all game, and you'd say he was marking space between the lines or working in transitions or something. 

Yes I'm being facetious - but I do find it funny that you mostly seem to absolve him of much of the blame, while having no problem criticising others (e.g. Can).  To be fair to you, Klopp seems to share your blind spot when it comes to Gini - so you're in good company! So whereas I see a player not making himself available for a pass, taking too many touches on the ball, mis-controlling, playing safe/inaccurate passes.....you see a player who's technically and tactically excellent, one who's not the reason we often lack control and/or creativity in midfield.

I don't want to start an argument with you - you've obviously done a lot more research than me on the tactical/statistical side of football.  It's just that I've never seen so much tactical analysis or excuses given about a player who's just.....quite average (in my opinion, of course). I find it baffling, that's all! 

There is a difference between absolving him of blame, and trying to understand what players are trying to do that we perhaps don't pay attention to that sees him getting picked even when, statistically and in terms of watching the game as a fan, he's having a rough time. Klopp is picking him for a reason. Rather than assuming there is none, I am merely trying to offer a possible reason for that, than jump in with everyone else labelling him a ghost. Surely it's a more interesting conversation that way, no?