Topic: Islamism

[Libero]

A Shia fundamentalist hits back by murdering 68 Sunnis in a mosque

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28900340

someone popped open a bottle obviously ...

Never mind them - I want to know where the top boy is.

You mean the al-Baghdadi chappy? 

You know, you can really get his "backers" to get turned off by explaining this nut job's story.

He was held prisoner in Abu Ghraib, and was tortured for his troubles ..... He promised to unleash hell when he got out - this might seem like a turn on (and for a lot of people, even hollywood script writers it in a way)

But!  Here's the next bit that can turn people off this "leader": 

Part of his torture included being sodomized with a metal pipe, and it is alleged that he enjoyed it.

So, then, you can pose the question to the ISIS wannabes: "Do you really want to follow a guy who enjoys getting reamed by a metal pipe?"

Obviously, there will still be those that say "yes", but the number might be considerably smaller, don't you reckon?


There, problem solved.



Roll out the next boogie man.

[Twelfth Man]

You mean the al-Baghdadi chappy? 

Think, he meant, the very top boy, the toppest of all tops.

[SadRed]

I try to address this point, albeit without great levels of detail, in explaining that there is and has been a sophisticated and authoritative set of orthodox readings of the Qur'an and the other primary Islamic sources, the Hadith, that easily predates the real rise of these paramilitary thugs like ISIS. While I don't believe in the Bible, for instance, I don't consider that the hardline military-industrial complex representatives at the Pentagon are accurate representatives of what the Bible has to say on war and peace. Similarly, while a person may not believe in or have studied the Qur'an using traditional sources and commentaries, it should be acknowledged that it is possible to say which conclusions can be drawn from the Qur'an and which ones can't. There is no basis in the history of Islamic thought for the existence of a group like ISIS. (In fact, most Muslims that I've spoken to about this are of the opinion that ISIS are amongst the lawless, spiritually devoid and bloodthirsty groups called the khawarij that the Prophet (pbuh) warned about, who would put the ordinary Muslim to shame when it came to prayer and fasting, but whose hearts would be like stone.) They're really isn't an acceptable way of studying the Qur'an that leads to a group like ISIS existing. Even many of the scholars that these groups tend to cite did not ascribe to the ideologies that you see today, but their writings are apparently just too sophisticated for groups like ISIS.

To give you an idea about what actual Islamic thought on war is like, here's a leading British academic's take on the ethics of war in Islam. He doesn't really take sides, he just provides all of the different opinions within Islamic thought throughout history. It's quite long, but worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0XIKT5IFlM

Good post, but dont think people will take notice. Tried unsucessfully to actually debate about Syed Qutb and the reasons for ISIS, but people are only interested if your arguments prove it is inherent barabaric nature of Islam or Quran that causes this. Else they move on to flavour of the day Islamic barbarity - forced marriages, female genital mutilation, chopping peoples heads or unconscionable laws and customs that the muslims have . Some perhaps have RSS feeds set up that find the most obscure sources to find anything they can find to post on here.

People who lack the most basic understanding of Islam - the most basic fact that there is something called a Tafsir to understand the Quran or there can be differences of opinion between jurists or infact what is islamic jurisprudence. Such people have made up their minds with a casual flicks of a couple of pages, looked things up on the internet to pander their views, even decided that muslims cannot wholeheartedly condemn what ISIS are doing because thats what Islam teaches. What "true" Islam teaches is also decided on here.

Anyway good posts and I agree with most of what you say.

[Twelfth Man]

...

What does 'true' Islam teach, and historically, have you got any examples of it ever existing?

[Twelfth Man]

Also begs the question, that if God/Allah created the Universe, why does he need a Tafsir to make sense of his manual for war and living? You would assume, God would have a perfect command of all languages, his utterances would have no ambiguity or need for exegesis. The God version of Breaking Bad might have been on in heaven, so perhaps he had an off-day.

[Corkboy]

Good post, but dont think people will take notice. Tried unsucessfully to actually debate about Syed Qutb and the reasons for ISIS, but people are only interested if your arguments prove it is inherent barabaric nature of Islam or Quran that causes this. Else they move on to flavour of the day Islamic barbarity - forced marriages, female genital mutilation

Yeah. Not too many responses on that one from the Muslim side of the fence. In fact, you could say I tried unsuccessfully to actually debate it.

[hide5seek]

The differet religions, are they a more sophisticated version of  my dad is bigger than your dad? Sorrynot meaning to offend just very runk.

[SadRed]

Yeah. Not too many responses on that one from the Muslim side of the fence. In fact, you could say I tried unsuccessfully to actually debate it.

I tried Corkboy, but I dont see any honest desire from you to actually understand the Islamic position. You just copy paste things from sources to link it with Islam, you dont even understand the very basics of what you are posting. Also you keep jumping from Syed Qutd to Maldives to Egypt to FGM from Hadith to legal rulings. It takes way too long mate to keep explaining you everything, which I would have done, had I really thought you wanted to understand the issue from an Islamic perspective, but I dont because I think your mind is already made up. In that case, its a waste of time.

PS: Do see that video he posted, will atleast clear up some things for you.

[Corkboy]

It takes way too long mate to keep explaining you everything, which I would have done, had I really thought you wanted to understand the issue from an Islamic perspective

200 million Indonesians are taught by their religion to mutilate the genitals of their baby daughters. Explain that to me, "from an Islamic perspective".

[Twelfth Man]

I think your mind is already made up. In that case, its a waste of time.

Islam in a nutshell.

[Yorkykopite]

Islam in a nutshell.

Indeed

[Yorkykopite]

Qutb. Yes. Well explained in Paul Berman's great book, Terror and Liberalism. Less so, but still interesting, in the Adam Curtis doc on BBC. A great Islamic scholar. Hated to see women enjoying themselves in America. Went back to Egypt and developed some ideas based on the Koran which allowed him to turn that hate to violence. Detested and feared heretics. Admired Hitler I believe. 

[hide5seek]

Islam in a nutshell.

Religion in a nutshell.

[jooneyisdagod]

200 million Indonesians are taught by their religion to mutilate the genitals of their baby daughters. Explain that to me, "from an Islamic perspective".

They interpreted it the wrong way obviously. In the Quran, Muhammad actually tells his wife to apply some lube to increase pleasure. But it has been taken out of context and added with another verse that refers to quite something else and hijacked by ultra conservatives to suit their own agenda.

[SadRed]

Also begs the question, that if God/Allah created the Universe, why does he need a Tafsir to make sense of his manual for war and living? You would assume, God would have a perfect command of all languages, his utterances would have no ambiguity or need for exegesis. The God version of Breaking Bad might have been on in heaven, so perhaps he had an off-day.

Ok let me go through this step by step because what you have said is so mixed up its impossible to disentangle in a short post. I was going to igonre this but I think I need to reply.

First and foremost, Allah is simply God in Arabic. Its not any special God, it literally means God.

Second, Qur'an is not a manual for war and living. Quran is supposed to be the word of God. Also it is supposed to be a recitation, not a book just to read but to be recited. Only the Arabic version is the Qur'an, translations are simply translations and can be wrong. Just understand the very basic facts first - it is NOT a manual. It is not SUPPOSED to be one. It is a collection of stories, warnings, glad tidings, and general over arching guidance. Often Qur'an has commands, which God revealed to Prophet Muhammad to be acted on specifically at that time. A lot of the verses you see on war are falling under this category. There were times when Muslims were prohibited to take up arms and did not fight back. At other times God instructed them to fight back. This was happening LIVE BACK THEN. Muslims were acting on what was being revealed, as was being revealed. Moreover, it is not in a chronological order - which means surah 9:12 does not necessarily mean that it is a continuation of 9:11. 9:11 could have been revealed 5 years ago, and 9:12 could have been revelaed 5 years later. It was arranged in this way to be easy for memorizing and for recitation. There are tens of millions of people who have memorized it by heart and can tell you any surah at any time.

Third, Hadiths, these are general collection of sayings and events from the time of the prophet which have been passed down from one person to the other. The prophet explained to the followers what Qur'anic verses meant. In simplistic terms, it is a recollection of events from second hand, third hand or even fourth hand sources. E.g. A heard from B who heard from C who heard a companion say  something. There are thousands of these, because anyone could be saying anything. After a few centuries, there were all sorts of rumours flying around. Some scholars got together and decided to vet everything and record it, along with who was saying it, where they heard it from. It is called Isnad. Every hadith was then classified into various categories, authentic, good, bad, weak etc etc. Often there were people who were purposefully manipulating the hadith, and the hadith was classified accordingly. More details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_terminology

Fourth is Jurisprudence, or Fiqh. This is Islamic Law. Islam has a rich history of legal tradition. These are derived mainly from the thousands of Hadiths. Unlike what people think, there is no one sharia. There are 1000s of diffent versions of them. Scholars from various different schools of thoughts, beliefs, where they lived, their culture, their understanding and era they lived in interpreted Hadiths in different ways and gave rulings. These can be vary widely. Different scholars have interpreted things differently, there is NO ONE GUIDE BOOK. Like in real life, islamic law is a huge branch of study, where people see the main source Quran and Hadiths, the existing legal framework, previous rulings, landmark rulings, spirit of the law, spirit of religion, the time we live in etc etc. This gave rise to four schools of law, often they have widely different rulings because they emerged in different geographical areas. The issues at hand are often very mundane e.g. when travelling, you are exempt from the full quota of 5 daily prayers. So what minimum distance constitutes a travel? Some Imams who lived in a mountaneous region stipulated 12 miles because it was harder to travel, where as imams on plains stipulated larger distances upto 30 miles. There are great cultural influences too on these rulings. Remember these are simply rulings, and varied from place to place, just like Laws in Britain and India are not the same. They are not absolute and often change with time. There are various legal terms associated here like Taqlid, which relies laws being formulated on previous schools of laws and previous rulings, whereas there is also space for Ijtihad, or completely independent rulings.

This is just a small part of it, but just to demonstrate when you say things like what you said, it makes no sense. I wish you could spend some time to the video the poster submitted.

The other part of your questions - why does God leave such ambiguity is a completely separate part. It is to do with Islamic philosophy and theology. What is the point of such violence in world? Why cant God make everyone equal? Why does God allow people to be deviated by his religion etc. If you think Muslim and 1 billion of them have not considered such basic questions over 1400 years, consider again. Please read books and debates by Islamic Philosophers AlGazel (Imam Al Ghazzali) and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) who have highly influenced modern rational thought. I respond some other time to this.

[rscanderlech]

Yeah. Not too many responses on that one from the Muslim side of the fence. In fact, you could say I tried unsuccessfully to actually debate it.

You tried to debate that in a thread that is ostensibly about Islamism? If you want lengthy debates on every contentious subject to do with Islam in public discourse, then you can just go and get a degree in Islamic Studies at one of many Oriental departments around the country, or, if that's excessive, you can go to a good library and read the books. Be sure to include in your reading list books that are actually written from a Muslim perspective, because that way you can know what Muslims believe.

[BUSHMILLS]

You tried to debate that in a thread that is ostensibly about Islamism? If you want lengthy debates on every contentious subject to do with Islam in public discourse, then you can just go and get a degree in Islamic Studies at one of many Oriental departments around the country, or, if that's excessive, you can go to a good library and read the books. Be sure to include in your reading list books that are actually written from a Muslim perspective, because that way you can know what Muslims believe.

So, as someone with degrees in Islamic Studies, do Muslims believe in FGM? Because it seems to be a bit, you know, prevalent.

[SadRed]

200 million Indonesians are taught by their religion to mutilate the genitals of their baby daughters. Explain that to me, "from an Islamic perspective".

Will you ever be convinced otherwise?

It is a pre-islamic practice, and practiced by people who are muslim and non muslim, primarily in africa. It is prevelant in non islamic countries too, and has been condemned hundereds of times by various Islamic authorities as unacceptable due to various reasons, if you are ever willing to listen

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/islam-female-genital-mutilation_b_4915939.html

[hide5seek]

You tried to debate that in a thread that is ostensibly about Islamism? If you want lengthy debates on every contentious subject to do with Islam in public discourse, then you can just go and get a degree in Islamic Studies at one of many Oriental departments around the country, or, if that's excessive, you can go to a good library and read the books. Be sure to include in your reading list books that are actually written from a Muslim perspective, because that way you can know what Muslims believe.

Why would you need a degree to get the answer to often simple questions?

[SadRed]

You tried to debate that in a thread that is ostensibly about Islamism? If you want lengthy debates on every contentious subject to do with Islam in public discourse, then you can just go and get a degree in Islamic Studies at one of many Oriental departments around the country, or, if that's excessive, you can go to a good library and read the books. Be sure to include in your reading list books that are actually written from a Muslim perspective, because that way you can know what Muslims believe.

Thats way too logical and defeats the purpose of this thread. In those books people will find what they dont want to read, only websites like WikiIslam and ansewring-islam are enough which are clearly a genuine source of Islamic information. People actually enjoy such bigotry so its not going to change, hence I gave up. Actually what else can one expect on a football forum.

[rscanderlech]

Why would you need a degree to get the answer to often simple questions?

You don't. That's why I said the other thing that you conveniently ignored. But then you did post this earlier:

The differet religions, are they a more sophisticated version of  my dad is bigger than your dad? Sorrynot meaning to offend just very runk.

So, as someone with degrees in Islamic Studies, do Muslims believe in FGM? Because it seems to be a bit, you know, prevalent.

What do you not understand about this not being a thread on Islam and Islamic law but on Islamism, i.e. modern forms of Islam-inspired politics?

[hide5seek]

Will you ever be convinced otherwise?

It is a pre-islamic practice, and practiced by people who are muslim and non muslim, primarily in africa. It is prevelant in non islamic countries too, and has been condemned hundereds of times by various Islamic authorities as unacceptable due to various reasons, if you are ever willing to listen

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/islam-female-genital-mutilation_b_4915939.html

That's fair enough and puts the issue to bed imhumbleo.

[SadRed]

That's fair enough and puts the issue to bed imhumbleo.

For people who are non biased and open to listening to the other side. For others, dont you worry, they will not relent unless they prove that FGM is definitely Islamic, and hence Islam is barbaric. They will trawl the internet for any link they can find.Thats why I ended the debate previously, because the debate is not actually a debate, but rather all judegements have been made by people with very limited Islamic knowledge with pre conceived ideas. So there really is no point.

[The Gulleysucker]

What you say may be true, or at least you may wish it to be true, but things like this below make it difficult .....

“This was something we have noticed in the last two weeks,” he said. “These religious scholars are issuing fatwas to midwives in Addu, preaching that it was compulsory in Islam for girls to be circumcised. From the information I have received, the practice has been revitalized in Addu. This is something that we need to stop.”

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/28292

Regarding the Huff piece, I looked up the author (it's always a good idea with any newspaper article to try and understand the angle or motives of the author).

The Wiki page on FGM undoubtedly indicates it's an African problem though also highlights its prevalance elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by_country

It's certainly true that in many of these countries it is present in all communities, but closer examination reveals it's a largely Muslim Community problem.

There surely has to be an explanation for that other than claiming it's an 'African problem'?

Look at Malaysia for instance...

FGM Prevalence rates have been estimated between 62% to 90% in Muslim Malay communities.[158] Malaysian women claim religious obligation (82%) as the primary reason for female circumcision

[GREGtheRED]

People actually enjoy such bigotry so its not going to change, hence I gave up. Actually what else can one expect on a football forum.

What a bizarre thing to say. What makes you continue to post here or even follow football at all if you clearly hold such contemptible and hateful views of football supporters in general in 2014?

[jooneyisdagod]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/AUjHb4C7b94?hl=en_US&amp;amp;version=3&amp;amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/AUjHb4C7b94?hl=en_US&amp;amp;version=3&amp;amp;</a>

I propose a drinking game. A shot every time someone says 'Allah' or 'God'. Who here can last beyond 2 minutes ?

[BarryCrocker]

http://www.youtube.com/v/AUjHb4C7b94?hl=en_US&amp;version=3&amp;

I propose a drinking game. A shot every time someone says 'Allah' or 'God'. Who here can last beyond 2 minutes ?

You'd probably get a whipping for that.

[Doc Red]

Some great posts by rscanderlech over the last few pages. And what you've mentioned about the type of people living in Europe that tend to rush of and join the likes of ISIS (or AlQaeda in the past), is something I've found to be very true. And it's why I think we need do more (and are striving to do more) on this side of the issue to make sure that we're not just making things worse over there. I've mentioned this in some of my earlier posts, but there are a lot of alienated, troubled, confused youths right here in Europe, and we need to do more to reach out to them, before the wrong element does.

Very interesting post - thanks.  I think many of us are aware of the way vulnerable young men are radicalised but the bottom line is that they are radicalised to fight and commit atrocities on the basis of a book that contains all the necessary verses to justify that behaviour.

As I've mentioned before, Alan, others as well as yourself have kept repeating this type of statement quite frequently, even though anyone with knowledge about the religion has stated the opposite. There are no verses that promote the killing of innocent women and children, and there are non that promote waging war against people simply because they "don't believe" in the same religion (or interpretation of the religion) as per the ISIS mantra. It's why you won't find scholars siding with the likes of ISIS, and it's also why they're condemned all over the Muslim world.

Included within the Quran (and hadeeths) are historical narratives (such as verse 8:12 which has already been quoted a few times on this thread, and which I've already explain here:

It's a far stretch to try to connect a narrative of a past battle as the motivation (or justification) for what ISIS are doing. It's not about a different interpretation, ISIS are not going out there and commiting actions whilst flipping through the Quran to get their confirmation. They're committing actions as they see fit whilst declaring themselves as Muslims. There is no Islamic handbook for what they're doing.

If a person commits atrocities and subsequently claims his actions are wholly inspired by Islam, or by the "Will of Allah", it doesn't mean we should accept his statements at face value. Just because he claims his actions to be justified, doesn't necessarily make it so. And if the Islamic community, and Islamic scholars, are united in the dismissal of his statements as wholly untrue and without grounds, why does that become so difficult to accept.

If a person x living in the US decided to shoot groups of immigrants in his city because he felt that "they offered a clear danger to his life and those of his fellow Americans" and therefore he was simply upholding his "right to defend himself" (as how he surmised it to be), would we be so quick in accepting his justification?. When Anders Breivik shot and killed his own people because he felt multiculturalism  (and Islam, and Feminisim in the West) was a clear problem for his country (and Europe) and he felt the need to market and present his mantra to the world , were we so quick to accept his justification? And did we all start extrapolating his actions onto all the right wing leaning political factions within our own countries?. If a person commits a heinous act, the problem tends to be with them, regardless of how they've tried to justify their actions.

Whenever the average person commits a serious crime, regardless of what they've deemed as their justification, we're quite comfortable with the concept that the majority of the blame and fault lies in their hands. However, it seems whenever a Muslim commits a serious crime, that simply because they're Muslim and claiming Islam is their justification, that the rule doesn't apply the same way. That somehow, just as long as Muslim uses his religion as his "defense", that people will assume there is merit in his statement.  . It's almost as if anything a Muslim says about their religion is somehow factual, simply because they're Muslim, regardless of the stance of the Muslim community, of the Islamic scholars, and of anyone else that might be knowledgeable on the subject of Islam.

[viteslesrouges]

You'd probably get a whipping for that.

Gives new meaning to "going out on the lash"

[Mutton Geoff]

You tried to debate that in a thread that is ostensibly about Islamism? If you want lengthy debates on every contentious subject to do with Islam in public discourse, then you can just go and get a degree in Islamic Studies at one of many Oriental departments around the country, or, if that's excessive, you can go to a good library and read the books. Be sure to include in your reading list books that are actually written from a Muslim perspective, because that way you can know what Muslims believe.

 the topics raised in here are quite in depth but i don't think i need a degree to know that FGM is wrong in any aspect you want to bring up, it cannot be justified as a practice it is a evil practice . I also don't need a degree to be able to understand that Isis are a barbaric group of murderers using religion to justify their own disgusting and depraved actions.

 I dont need a degree to think that if we got rid of all religions, yes we might still have some barbarity but at least fewer excuses and apologists for it.

We have a few in here with in my opinion massive chips on their shoulders, when people attack the actions of Isis they are not attacking you or your religion merely questioning why the leaders of Islam have not instructed the rest of Islam to disown or even destroy Isis?

I also do not need a degree to know that all religions can be as bad, for example the leader of the  Catholic Church's blind eye to Hitler and the Holocaust.

However to take your point on board if you post in the football section i will need you to show me evidence of your FA coaches badge

 

[Mutton Geoff]

Can i suggest BBC have a discussion going on about British Islamic Extremists, and of course we have the fellow in another studio, who when asked is he British he said I am a Muslim, First, Second and Last. I could be wrong but do any other followers of Religions in the UK think this way?

The irony is that guy will be happy to invoke his British rights when its convenient, how many more are like him, as he must be just be the acceptable face for the BBC  of these Extreme Islamic Factions.

[Twelfth Man]

Cheers SadRed, for the reply and explanation. As an atheist/rationalist, obviously I find Religion per se as ridiculous. As someone posted earlier, we are so far apart, it will be hard to find common ground. From my point of view, there will always be a note of derision in my responses here, because I find the whole thing so absurd. I appreciate the spirit in which you and others have tried to explain the Muslim point of view.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

I'm sure I seen a news feed this morning on my phone along the lines of "Saudi says ISIS do represent ...... ...... " but can I fuck find it now and I can't remember what the headline was. It was either in the Independent or the Guardian, but I can't find it

[SadRed]

Cheers SadRed, for the reply and explanation. As an atheist/rationalist, obviously I find Religion per se as ridiculous. As someone posted earlier, we are so far apart, it will be hard to find common ground. From my point of view, there will always be a note of derision in my responses here, because I find the whole thing so absurd. I appreciate the spirit in which you and others have tried to explain the Muslim point of view.

Fair enough.

Although because you mention rationalist, its not something unknown in Islamic world too, even though it may appear to be full of dogma. There was a strong movement of rational thinkers in Islam from as back as 9th century, Avicenna (Ibn Sina) having hugely inspired modern rational thought and philosophy.  http://www.iep.utm.edu/avicenna/ 

It also had a direct impact on Indian Scientific movements as detailed in this paper (I mention indian just as an example) http://www.new1.dli.ernet.in/data1/upload/insa/INSA_1/20005b5b_276.pdf

Anyway, thats a different topic!

[kavah]

Qutb. Yes. Well explained in Paul Berman's great book, Terror and Liberalism. Less so, but still interesting, in the Adam Curtis doc on BBC. A great Islamic scholar. Hated to see women enjoying themselves in America. Went back to Egypt and developed some ideas based on the Koran which allowed him to turn that hate to violence. Detested and feared heretics. Admired Hitler I believe. 

Blimey, he sounds like a bit of a killjoy. Puritanical.

The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other. The American’s intoxication in “jazz” music does not reach its full completion until the music is accompanied by singing that is just as coarse and obnoxious as the music itself. Meanwhile, the noise of the instruments and the voices mounts, and it rings in the ears to an unbearable degree… The agitation of the multitude increases, and the voices of approval mount, and their palms ring out in vehement, continuous applause that all but deafens the ears.[23]

[SadRed]

I'm sure I seen a news feed this morning on my phone along the lines of "Saudi says ISIS do represent ...... ...... " but can I fuck find it now and I can't remember what the headline was. It was either in the Independent or the Guardian, but I can't find it

Guardian:
Last Tuesday, Saudi Arabia's grand mufti, Abdulaziz al-Sheikh, described Isis as Islam's "enemy number one" and called for "decisive" measures against clerics who lure young Saudis into extremism. Even radical clerics associated with al-Qaida have made unparalleled statements about the group.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/24/isis-al-qaida-failure-to-address-extremism

[electricghost]

I'm sure I seen a news feed this morning on my phone along the lines of "Saudi says ISIS do represent ...... ...... " but can I fuck find it now and I can't remember what the headline was. It was either in the Independent or the Guardian, but I can't find it

This one ?

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2014/07/saudi-families-refuse-condolences-isis-position.html#

[bigbonedrawky]

Can i suggest BBC have a discussion going on about British Islamic Extremists, and of course we have the fellow in another studio, who when asked is he British he said I am a Muslim, First, Second and Last. I could be wrong but do any other followers of Religions in the UK think this way?

The irony is that guy will be happy to invoke his British rights when its convenient, how many more are like him, as he must be just be the acceptable face for the BBC  of these Extreme Islamic Factions.

There's nearly a thousand Jewish UK residents a year who leave the country to fight in the IDF.
 

[SadRed]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/feedarticle/11504475

Associated Press= CAIRO (AP)€” The top Islamic authority in Egypt, revered by many Muslims worldwide, launched an Internet-based campaign Sunday challenging an extremist group in Syria and Iraq by saying it should not be called an "Islamic State."

[TepidT2O]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/feedarticle/11504475

Associated Press= CAIRO (AP)€” The top Islamic authority in Egypt, revered by many Muslims worldwide, launched an Internet-based campaign Sunday challenging an extremist group in Syria and Iraq by saying it should not be called an "Islamic State."

Good that.

There is a problem for Islam in the uk though too.

Who speaks for Islam in the uk? Mo Ansar too often.  A man who's said that it's ok too kill those "guilty" of apotesty.

The need for a genuine "man in the street" to represent Islam in the uk is important to counteract the daily mail hate campaign.  When we saw the EDL members being served tea outside the mosque they were protesting outside, those are the kind of people who would represent their faith well and who represent the majority of Muslims I have known.