Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 198976 times)

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1601 on: August 21, 2014, 07:53:18 pm »
My heart tinks there should be no other action than to wipe every barbaric ISIS member off the face of the earth, my head says that would make us as bad as them.

It would not make us as bad as them. They enjoy killing. They want to be as brutal as possible in order to gain power. We know what happens when ethnic groups have their houses painted with symbols.

In this case, I hope someone (we'll have to rely on the US, won't we?) bomb them to the stone age. I wonder how tough they are when they face armed men, as opposed to unarmed families. I wish though, that it was Iran, Iraq, Saudiarabia, Qatar and others in the region (minus Israel, of course) who joined forces to crush IS. And not the US. Because if it was those countries, the IS would have to re-think. It wouldn't be as easy to use the Koran to recruit new members. I think if those countries could arrange a few religious top men to say the IS are evil and are acting against Islam, the IS could die out fairly fast. Unfortunately, I wouldn't expect it to happen any time soon.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1602 on: August 22, 2014, 12:36:30 am »
In this case, I hope someone (we'll have to rely on the US, won't we?) bomb them to the stone age.

That would actually constitute progress for Islamic State.
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Offline Libero

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Islamism
« Reply #1603 on: August 22, 2014, 11:13:23 am »
I see that (alleged Anti-Semite) US Def. Sec. Chuck Hagel has finally weighed in on his take on ISIS:

Quote
"They're beyond just a terrorist group. They marry ideology with a sophisticated strategic and tactical military prowess and they're tremendously well-funded. This is way beyond anything we have seen. We must prepare for everything. Get Ready!"


Side note, but this latest "intervention" would make Obama the fourth consecutive US President to bomb Iraq in some form or another. 

I know, I know, it is different this time.  However, there are a few consistencies, one of which is that it sure is bullish for US GDP - so BTFD folks!!!


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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1604 on: August 22, 2014, 11:45:43 am »
I see that (alleged Anti-Semite) US Def. Sec. Chuck Hagel has finally weighed in on his take on ISIS:


Side note, but this latest "intervention" would make Obama the fourth consecutive US President to bomb Iraq in some form or another. 

I know, I know, it is different this time.  However, there are a few consistencies, one of which is that it sure is bullish for US GDP - so BTFD folks!!!



intervention is required and somebody needs to take the lead, so whilst i think the US helped to create these problems there are no others raising their head above the parapet to deal with these despicable murderers.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1605 on: August 22, 2014, 12:49:11 pm »
I called out Indonesia earlier on FGM but credit where credit is due.

Indonesia president: ISIS is ‘embarrassing’

The president of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim-majority country, deemed the actions of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria group “embarrassing” to the religion and called upon Muslim leaders to unite in tackling extremism, Agence France-Presse reported.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the scale of the killing instigated by the extremists in their offensive in large areas of Iraq and Syria and the level of violence being used was appalling.

“It is shocking. It is becoming out of control,” he said in an interview with The Australian, a day after ISIS released a video showing a masked militant beheading U.S. reporter James Foley, provoking worldwide revulsion.

“We do not tolerate it, we forbid ISIS in Indonesia,” he added.

“Indonesia is not an Islamic state. We respect all religions.”

Yudhoyono also urged international leaders to work together to combat radicalization.

“This is a new wake-up call to international leaders all over the world, including Islamic leaders,” he said, adding that the actions of ISIS were not only “embarrassing” to Islam but also “humiliating”, the newspaper reported.

“All leaders must review how to combat extremism. Changing paradigms on both sides are needed, how the West perceives Islam and how Islam perceives the West,” Yudhoyono said.

Indonesia is home to the world’s biggest Muslim population of about 225 million and has long struggled with terrorism. But a successful clampdown in recent years has seen the end of major deadly attacks.

source

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1606 on: August 22, 2014, 03:23:02 pm »
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/21/saudi-arabia-surge-executions

Just in case anyone thinks that only Islamic State behead people. The Saudis have beheaded 19 offenders in the last 17 days.

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Offline PhilV

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1607 on: August 22, 2014, 03:35:20 pm »
Do you know what REALLY fucks me off about these ISIS dicks? They claim to be Holy Soldiers and all this shit, they brutally kill people, claim to be heroes and whatnot... but always with their faces hidden, they are cowards who are afraid to fight a real fight/battle/war, they hide amongst civilians and run regimes of fear and oppression.

Makes me so so angry. These cretins ruin the world, they really do.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 03:52:15 pm by PhilV »

Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1608 on: August 22, 2014, 05:29:18 pm »
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/21/saudi-arabia-surge-executions

Just in case anyone thinks that only Islamic State behead people. The Saudis have beheaded 19 offenders in the last 17 days.

"God is Great!"

These Saudi executions and the Hamas ones in Gaza give some context to the mindset of IS.

Our opinions of IS and their outrages are founded on our principles which are nothing like the current mindsets in the Middle East, how do we counter this without resorting to their standards?
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1609 on: August 22, 2014, 05:40:59 pm »

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1610 on: August 22, 2014, 05:42:51 pm »
Just in case anyone thinks that only Islamic State behead people. The Saudis have beheaded 19 offenders in the last 17 days.

This is where it can get confusing.

Article one of the 1992 Saudi "Basic Law of Governance" states, The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic State. wiki

So when the top Saudi Muslim guy denounces IS as evil, presumably because they behead people and such, he is saying that the Islamic State are terrible, and he's saying that on behalf of a self professed Islamic State. Who also beheads people. And whose private citizens are allegedly funding the Islamic State. The other one, not the Saudi one.

Hope that's all clear.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1611 on: August 22, 2014, 06:04:39 pm »
This is where it can get confusing.

Article one of the 1992 Saudi "Basic Law of Governance" states, The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic State. wiki

So when the top Saudi Muslim guy denounces IS as evil, presumably because they behead people and such, he is saying that the Islamic State are terrible, and he's saying that on behalf of a self professed Islamic State. Who also beheads people. And whose private citizens are allegedly funding the Islamic State. The other one, not the Saudi one.

Hope that's all clear.


It's all so reminiscent of the various Trotskyist groups who used to hang around the fringes of British politics. To an outsider they, understandably, all looked to be selling exactly the same thing. They were selling the same thing. The differences between them were nuances of nuances of nuances. So tiny they couldn't be detected except by those in the middle of the quarrel. But the tinier the differences became the more they denounced each other as 'heretics' and 'traitors' and 'revisionists' (not a good thing apparently) and 'counter-revolutionaries'.

It's the same with these here Islamists.

Freud called it the 'narcissism of small differences'. Sibling rivalry taken to the point of destructive fury.

If only Islamic Jihad, the Saudi Princes, ISIS, the Taliban, Al-Qaida, Boko Haram, the Ayatollahs, Al-Qassem, the Al-Quds brigade, Hezbollah and Hamas could all be put in a tiny space, supplied with as many weapons as they need, and told to get on with it.....well, maybe the last Jihadist alive could turn off the lights and everyone else could breathe a sigh of relief.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1612 on: August 22, 2014, 06:05:53 pm »

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1613 on: August 22, 2014, 06:21:28 pm »
That would actually constitute progress for Islamic State.

True that. And thanks for the laugh. Wrong thread for a smiley, but that comment made me laugh.

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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1614 on: August 22, 2014, 06:28:10 pm »
I called out Indonesia earlier on FGM but credit where credit is due.

Indonesia president: ISIS is ‘embarrassing’

The president of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim-majority country, deemed the actions of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria group “embarrassing” to the religion and called upon Muslim leaders to unite in tackling extremism, Agence France-Presse reported.

Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said the scale of the killing instigated by the extremists in their offensive in large areas of Iraq and Syria and the level of violence being used was appalling.

“It is shocking. It is becoming out of control,” he said in an interview with The Australian, a day after ISIS released a video showing a masked militant beheading U.S. reporter James Foley, provoking worldwide revulsion.

“We do not tolerate it, we forbid ISIS in Indonesia,” he added.

“Indonesia is not an Islamic state. We respect all religions.”

Yudhoyono also urged international leaders to work together to combat radicalization.

“This is a new wake-up call to international leaders all over the world, including Islamic leaders,” he said, adding that the actions of ISIS were not only “embarrassing” to Islam but also “humiliating”, the newspaper reported.

“All leaders must review how to combat extremism. Changing paradigms on both sides are needed, how the West perceives Islam and how Islam perceives the West,” Yudhoyono said.

Indonesia is home to the world’s biggest Muslim population of about 225 million and has long struggled with terrorism. But a successful clampdown in recent years has seen the end of major deadly attacks.

source

A good start. I hope many more Islamic states and leaders, including in particular their religious leaders, can follow the same path. Then IS would have nowhere to go and they would be doomed.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1615 on: August 22, 2014, 06:37:46 pm »
A good start. I hope many more Islamic states and leaders, including in particular their religious leaders, can follow the same path. Then IS would have nowhere to go and they would be doomed.

Indeed, and in addition to the above,  I'd say their short but brutal reign is coming to an end anyhow and here's why:

1. They have over-extended themselves, and are up against vastly superior forces.

2. They are becoming unpopular with a large number of the locals (and if the Iraqi Govt gets its shit together, then the numbers of those unimpressed will grow further);

3. The funding mechanisms are being squeezed slowly. Incidentally, the USD "cash" holdings may well be cancelled in the near-future if records exist of the notes' serial numbers.  Granted, these notes can continue to be circulated in-house so to speak, but that won't do much good in the longer term.

Their fate is sealed - sooner rather than later hopefully!

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1616 on: August 22, 2014, 09:08:50 pm »
Wonder what they'll do with the British nationals that come back yet can't be charged with committing a criminal offence but are regarded as dangerous?

Maybe a time limit should be imposed on anyone going to one of these countries? A couple of weeks is long enough to visit family and if they can't provide proof they are going there on legitimate business then don't let them back in if they're not back within 2 weeks. Might sound Draconian but I'd lose no fucking sleep over it.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1617 on: August 22, 2014, 09:17:17 pm »
Do you know what REALLY fucks me off about these ISIS dicks? They claim to be Holy Soldiers and all this shit, they brutally kill people, claim to be heroes and whatnot... but always with their faces hidden, they are cowards who are afraid to fight a real fight/battle/war, they hide amongst civilians and run regimes of fear and oppression.

Makes me so so angry. These cretins ruin the world, they really do.

they are no warriors, they are rats... they use middle-age methods, cutting heads and horrible things like that to terrify people

among them there is no dignity, no honor, no respect...they are bunch of small-minded worms
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1618 on: August 22, 2014, 09:37:17 pm »
Our opinions of IS and their outrages are founded on our principles which are nothing like the current mindsets in the Middle East, how do we counter this without resorting to their standards?
I'd like to think that my opinions on IS and their methods come from place of humanity and compassion for the victims they butcher for have different ideas from them.

I don't think there really is a way to counter them without the use of force, is there? I also don't think 'we' will ever behead our defeated opponents.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1619 on: August 22, 2014, 10:49:13 pm »
Indeed, and in addition to the above,  I'd say their short but brutal reign is coming to an end anyhow and here's why:

1. They have over-extended themselves, and are up against vastly superior forces.

2. They are becoming unpopular with a large number of the locals (and if the Iraqi Govt gets its shit together, then the numbers of those unimpressed will grow further);

3. The funding mechanisms are being squeezed slowly. Incidentally, the USD "cash" holdings may well be cancelled in the near-future if records exist of the notes' serial numbers.  Granted, these notes can continue to be circulated in-house so to speak, but that won't do much good in the longer term.

Their fate is sealed - sooner rather than later hopefully!


And they have no way of creating a modern sustainable society. They have loads of captured weapons but the dumb fucks would never be able to organise modern industrial production of complex weapons. They'll be back on pressed metal AK-47s at some point. It's just a question of how soon and how many poor bastards suffer under them in the meantime.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1620 on: August 22, 2014, 10:50:27 pm »
So, this evening, BBC North West Tonight cameras rock up at a mosque in Blackburn where an imam has decided to use Friday prayers to condemn ISIS's practice of beheading people, and to try and dissuade young British Muslims from going out to join them.

I'll leave aside the fact that this is viewed as so unusual it's actually considered to be "news"....

The real story is that, following the imam's comments, the reporter interviews a few of the worshippers outside the mosque. One says he's worried that his kids will want to become jihadists when they grow up. Another says he "sees no evidence" that young British men have gone to join ISIS and that it's all a pack of "media lies". A third complains that Muslims are being killed every day in Gaza, but that the media are now obsessing about the death of "just one Christian" instead. He goes on to say that he expects this from the BBC because "it's owned by Jews".

Interesting times ahead, eh?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1621 on: August 22, 2014, 10:50:47 pm »
they are no warriors, they are rats... they use middle-age methods, cutting heads and horrible things like that to terrify people

among them there is no dignity, no honor, no respect...they are bunch of small-minded worms

I think you mean medieval not middle-age. Same root but completely different meaning.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1622 on: August 22, 2014, 11:11:58 pm »
So, this evening, BBC North West Tonight cameras rock up at a mosque in Blackburn where an imam has decided to use Friday prayers to condemn ISIS's practice of beheading people, and to try and dissuade young British Muslims from going out to join them.

I'll leave aside the fact that this is viewed as so unusual it's actually considered to be "news"....
I sincerely hope it is not unusual. It is newsworthy. We can't say with one breath that we want the Muslim community to 'do more' and then dismiss their efforts when they do. I hope there's more Imams, in their position as community leaders, up and down the country saying the same thing. We're all on the same side.

Quote
One says he's worried that his kids will want to become jihadists when they grow up.
This attitude concerns me. If he's worried he should do something about it and not defer his responsibility to raise his children.

Quote
Another says he "sees no evidence" that young British men have gone to join ISIS and that it's all a pack of "media lies".
There none so blind...

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1623 on: August 22, 2014, 11:36:28 pm »
This attitude concerns me. If he's worried he should do something about it and not defer his responsibility to raise his children.

Substitute drug dealers or tabloid journalists. It's a standard parental paranoia moment, nothing more.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1624 on: August 22, 2014, 11:39:29 pm »
I sincerely hope it is not unusual. It is newsworthy. We can't say with one breath that we want the Muslim community to 'do more' and then dismiss their efforts when they do. I hope there's more Imams, in their position as community leaders, up and down the country saying the same thing. We're all on the same side.

Spot on Zero Zero.

Really well put.

Sometimes you hear conversations on the radio (say closet-racists' favourite LBC), or through other mediums / forums / channels about how "Muslims don't do enough" - they couldn't be more wrong:

Those Muslims in the jails of Bahrain, Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, or Syria, et al, are in jail because they spoke out against repression and state-sponsored extremism.

And, if I recall correctly, some of the Muslims who died at the hands of ISIS (check the recent panorama episode), were seen as "too moderate" and against extremism...

So, far from not doing enough, some are paying with their lives.

(yes, the irony of the nations listed above being client states for some super power or another hasn't escaped the attention of most here I'm sure!) 



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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1625 on: August 23, 2014, 12:35:04 am »
Substitute drug dealers or tabloid journalists. It's a standard parental paranoia moment, nothing more.
I don't know, Corky. This father has walked out from listening to sermon (if thats the right term) where his Imam has categorically said that the views and actions of IS are contrary to our beliefs and we should do what we can to dissuade our children form joining them... and he turns round and says that he's worried about them becoming jihadists. Fucking hell, stand the fuck my man and get involved in your children's life so that you won't find yourself in a short space of time watching them beheading an infidel and posting it on twitter.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1626 on: August 23, 2014, 12:38:40 am »
I don't know, Corky. This father has walked out from listening to sermon (if thats the right term) where his Imam has categorically said that the views and actions of IS are contrary to our beliefs and we should do what we can to dissuade our children form joining them... and he turns round and says that he's worried about them becoming jihadists.

Again, substitute parents' info night at the local school for sermon and local cop talking about drug abuse for Imam and you will have parents coming out wondering if their kids are going to be junkies.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1627 on: August 23, 2014, 12:44:07 am »
Again, substitute parents' info night at the local school for sermon and local cop talking about drug abuse for Imam and you will have parents coming out wondering if their kids are going to be junkies.

What about the guy who says the stories of British men becoming jihadists are all a pack of media lies? And the other one who believes the BBC is owned by Jews?

Anything to be concerned about there?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1628 on: August 23, 2014, 12:54:35 am »
This mob of psychotic nut jobs need to be wiped.  And it doesn't matter how it's done.  If ever there was a case for napalm it's now.  Scorched earth policy.  There is nothing whatsoever positive about them.  There is no negotiations to be done.  They're so brainwashed and psychotic they're beyond reason.  Beheading and burying people alive?  They just need to be wiped.  And if that necessitates another land war then so be it.  Send the troops in with air support and hammer them from all sides, and take no prisoners, leave none of the evil cnuts alive.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1629 on: August 23, 2014, 01:00:29 am »
This mob of psychotic nut jobs need to be wiped.  And it doesn't matter how it's done.  If ever there was a case for napalm it's now.  Scorched earth policy.  There is nothing whatsoever positive about them.  There is no negotiations to be done.  They're so brainwashed and psychotic they're beyond reason.  Beheading and burying people alive?  They just need to be wiped.  And if that necessitates another land war then so be it.  Send the troops in with air support and hammer them from all sides, and take no prisoners, leave none of the evil cnuts alive.
Are you volunteering ?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1630 on: August 23, 2014, 01:09:28 am »
Are you volunteering ?
Oughtn't the 1.6 billion Muslims we've heard so much about in this thread be at the head of the queue for dealing with an organisation that's debasing their religion?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1631 on: August 23, 2014, 01:55:21 am »
Oughtn't the 1.6 billion Muslims we've heard so much about in this thread be at the head of the queue for dealing with an organisation that's debasing their religion?
Are they really debasing it? From the little I have read from the Koran, they [IS] have made an interpretation and are living by it. They believe in their version of the Koran, why give more importance to other takes on God's words? Islam is for everyman, no one interpretation is better than another. They justify their actions with verses from the Koran. As an athiest, their take on Islam is just as valid for me as Doc Red's. The key thing is that they are following, in whatever aspect, ability, God's words. I expect all Muslims past and present will have much more in common with IS than me. I'm an unbeliever, IS and the other 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims might disagree on what aspect of God's words they choose practice, but they certainly believe in the same God. God, sadly, trumps everything, nature of the beast.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1632 on: August 23, 2014, 02:43:59 am »
So, this evening, BBC North West Tonight cameras rock up at a mosque in Blackburn where an imam has decided to use Friday prayers to condemn ISIS's practice of beheading people, and to try and dissuade young British Muslims from going out to join them.

I'll leave aside the fact that this is viewed as so unusual it's actually considered to be "news"....

The real story is that, following the imam's comments, the reporter interviews a few of the worshippers outside the mosque. One says he's worried that his kids will want to become jihadists when they grow up. Another says he "sees no evidence" that young British men have gone to join ISIS and that it's all a pack of "media lies". A third complains that Muslims are being killed every day in Gaza, but that the media are now obsessing about the death of "just one Christian" instead. He goes on to say that he expects this from the BBC because "it's owned by Jews".

Interesting times ahead, eh?
This isn't unusual at all. As a Muslim who has attended countless Friday prayers across the UK and elsewhere, this type of condemnation is a standard thing whenever there is an unfortunate Muslim extremism-related event in the news.

Let's be clear, while a lot of Muslims unfortunately do fall prey to conspiracy theories - by the way, scepticism of the media is not entirely unwarranted, although it ought to be done with some sophistication - most of these people do not support the extremism either! To draw an analogy, there are conspiracy theorists in the world who believe that global warming is just a myth that is intended to control people, but that doesn't mean that such people are all guilty of the crimes of producing industrial waste and creating climate change.

Oughtn't the 1.6 billion Muslims we've heard so much about in this thread be at the head of the queue for dealing with an organisation that's debasing their religion?
1. What makes you think that these 1.6 billion Muslims aren't doing anything? Firstly, the no. of Muslims in this country is less than 5% of the population, and the majority is not well-educated and cannot be expected to be writing or speaking publicly in those platforms that you are familiar with. Start visiting some mosques and reading Muslim academic journals etcetera, and you're views might change. Also, you presumably don't know Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Malay, Turkish and the other languages that most of the Muslim world speaks and writes in, in which languages and countries you'll find plenty of condemnation, of efforts to deradicalise ands on. I know this as someone who is studying two of those languages.
2. While it's true that Muslims could be doing more, it's also true that Muslim world is in such disarray, politically, intellectually, spiritually, that it's quite hard for it to respond to these things. It needs time to build the institutions and the infrastructure.

People also need to realise that ISIS is attacking Muslims as well! Anyone who doesn't swear allegiance to them - i.e. 99% of the world's Muslims - according to their crude non-ideology, is an apostate, and apparently therefore deserves the death penalty, without even having atrial , which is a basic right according to the earliest Islamic sources! They destroy mosques that don't swear allegiance to them - in fact, even when Mr Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi gave that pronouncement that he is the self-acclaimed 'Caliph' of his 'Islamic state' (by the way the legal grounds for either one of those claims are nonexistent in any of the four legal schools of Sunni thought, and they claim to be Sunni, although I've no idea about Shi'a thought), ISIS actually had murdered the real Imam of that mosque only moments beforehand. That shows you that they've no respect for Muslims or Islam. These guys are, in their behaviour, more like the Mongol invaders of the Islamic empire and parts of Eastern Europe in the 13th century.

Are they really debasing it? From the little I have read from the Koran, they [IS] have made an interpretation and are living by it. They believe in their version of the Koran, why give more importance to other takes on God's words? Islam is for everyman, no one interpretation is better than another. They justify their actions with verses from the Koran. As an athiest, their take on Islam is just as valid for me as Doc Red's. The key thing is that they are following, in whatever aspect, ability, God's words. I expect all Muslims past and present will have much more in common with IS than me. I'm an unbeliever, IS and the other 1.6 billion peaceful Muslims might disagree on what aspect of God's words they choose practice, but they certainly believe in the same God. God, sadly, trumps everything, nature of the beast.
While there has been a multiplicity of thought within Islam, it's also the case that, from its very inception - and you can study the tradition if you like, as I am doing, from both the Orientalist and from the traditional perspectives - Islam developed rather sophisticated interpretative methodologies that relied on the mastery of a particular register of the Arabic language, of the most arcane elements of Arabic grammar, of formal logic, of Arabic rhetoric, of methodologies in historical source analysis, in theology and philosophy, and so on. In doing so, the Islamic world did manage, like many other traditions, to establish consensus and orthodoxy on the major principles of the religion and the worldview that it outlines.

Thanks to this, it is possible to say with firm conviction that ISIS's activities and political positions have no grounding in the Islamic tradition at all. Let us look at the letter written by Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who became one of the Righteous Caliphs, who is venerated unequivocally by both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims, and who is considered to be a Saint and as authentic a Muslim, and as close to the Prophetic teachings, as it gets. These were his instructions to a man who was to become a governor in the emerging Caliphate:

Quote
Develop in your heart the feeling of love for your people and let it be the source of kindliness and blessing to them. Do not behave with them like a barbarian, and do not appropriate to yourself that which belongs to them. Remember that the citizens of the state are of two categories. They are either your brethren in religion or your brethren in kind. They are subject to infirmities and liable to commit mistakes. Some indeed do commit mistakes. But forgive them even as you would like God to forgive you. Bear in mind that you are placed over them, even as I am placed over you. And then there is God even above him who has given you the position of a Governor in order that you may look after those under you and to be sufficient unto them. And you will be judged by what you do for them.

Link to full letter, in English translation

May I point out that the translation, 'kind', is usually 'humanity' or 'manhood'. And this sort of statement was the norm throughout most of Islamic history. Bar the odd, near-unanimously hated tyrant who has ruled in every place in the world, this attitude stayed until the 19th century when certain Muslim thinkers in the Islamic heartland whose exposure to non-Muslims, in some cases, had been non-existent except with the arrival of Napoleon's armies to Egypt and those of the British a little bit later, and who were deeply troubled by the political and social free fall of the Islamic world, developed rather puritanical and/or revivalist political ideas. These ideas reached their intellectual climax with the Syed Qutb, who is said to be the intellectual inspiration for the Muslim Brotherhood (although he would most likely have disagreed with a great deal of its organisation).

ISIS, to place it into context, are the self-unaware, lowest-register manifestation or excess of those ideologies which spawned from Syed Qutb and his predecessors who formulated what is referred to as 'political Islam', in today's vernacular. They recruit psychologically fragile individuals who have either grown up in war torn lands or who have grown up in semi-ghetto conditions in places like the UK (this is usually the case), who lack a sense of purpose in their lives and a sense of contribution to society/Islam, and who, in their frustration, imagine that being on the battlefront in physical combat is the best way. Often, these people are by no means religious or 'practising'. Their own inner frustration leads to their being utterly unscrupulous and uncritical about the best way to actually help Muslims, about which military organisation - if they insist on joining one - that they should join, and so on. And once they are in, of course, once they've joined the crazy people, in their psychological states, it's easy to get brainwashed.

If you want to understand best the types of people who fight for ISIS aside from warlords and their mercenaries who make up a large part of it, go and read Notes from the Underground by Fyodor Dostoevski. His is a pretty accurate portrayal of the isolated, psychologically disturbed modern/postmodern youth.

What's sad to see, but understandable, is that a lot of non-Muslims don't always accept that Muslims talk amongst each other a lot about the sorry state of world politics, including of the Muslim world, and condemn these groups to no end. Muslims are always and everywhere condemning ISIS. It's possible that most Muslims actually hate ISIS more than non-Muslims generally do, in this country. After all, ISIS is primarily destroying Muslim-majority lands, Muslim mosques, Muslim lives, and the lives and lands of those with whom Muslims lived peacefully, by and large, for over 1000 years. And tons and tons of imams, religious scholars, spiritual teachers (these are all different categories, by the way), Muslim politicians and others have condemned ISIS. One respect in which I think that non-Muslims looking into the Muslim world can be unreasonable, I think, is that they, due to their relative lack of knowledge of Muslim opinion, expect assurances from 99% of Muslims or their representatives that 99% of Muslims really and truly aren't extremists or don't support them. But you can't expect it to always come to you, you often have to search for it. Travel to Morocco, travel to Saudi Arabia, travel to Indonesia, travel to India, and see what opinion is. Also, even in Britain, a lot of Muslims like myself just don't expect to have to declare their lack of fondness for ISIS. In my daily life and routine, I, as a regular, peace-loving person, don't feel the need to hold up signposts saying that I agree that ISIS is a bad thing. Now I'm not saying that all non-Muslims are like that, but it always happens that I have to defend myself and mainstream Islam, sadly often even to people who know me reasonably well, against associations with Al-Qaeda style ideologies. (Note that even Al Qaeda condemns ISIS.)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 03:01:47 am by rscanderlech »

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1633 on: August 23, 2014, 08:59:30 am »
Glad i dont believe everything the shithouse media tells me..unlike many on here...
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1634 on: August 23, 2014, 09:35:54 am »
This isn't unusual at all. ....

What a marvellous post.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1635 on: August 23, 2014, 10:21:45 am »
A Shia fundamentalist hits back by murdering 68 Sunnis in a mosque

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28900340
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1636 on: August 23, 2014, 11:00:29 am »
These guys are, in their behaviour, more like the Mongol invaders of the Islamic empire and parts of Eastern Europe in the 13th century.
While there has been a multiplicity of thought within Islam, it's also the case that, from its very inception - and you can study the tradition if you like, as I am doing, from both the Orientalist and from the traditional perspectives - Islam developed rather sophisticated interpretative methodologies that relied on the mastery of a particular register of the Arabic language, of the most arcane elements of Arabic grammar, of formal logic, of Arabic rhetoric, of methodologies in historical source analysis, in theology and philosophy, and so on. In doing so, the Islamic world did manage, like many other traditions, to establish consensus and orthodoxy on the major principles of the religion and the worldview that it outlines.

In India it was the Turkish, Persian, and what now is Iraq, Muslim raiders, rulers that were the worst. The Mongols (at the height of their Empire, they didn't expand into India for some reason.Babur the founder of the Mughal dynasty very much looked down on the Mongols), the ones that settled were comparatively benign. Thanks for the post mate.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 06:37:48 pm by Twelfth Man »
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1637 on: August 23, 2014, 01:34:56 pm »
I think you mean medieval not middle-age. Same root but completely different meaning.

yes thats what i meant
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1638 on: August 23, 2014, 02:16:40 pm »
In India it was the Turkish, Persian, and what now is Iraq, Muslim raiders, rulers that were the worst. The Mongols, the ones that settled were comparatively benign. Thanks for the post mate.
I used the example of the Mongol invasions of the Islamic empire because they reduced many major cities to rubble and sent back Islamic civilisation by a couple of centuries. Some argue that the Islamic world never fully recovered intellectually from the destruction of cities like Baghdad, which was one of the intellectual capitals of the world at the time. And now, who is behaving in the same manner in the same part of the world? ISIS.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1639 on: August 23, 2014, 02:29:48 pm »
Very interesting post - thanks.  I think many of us are aware of the way vulnerable young men are radicalised but the bottom line is that they are radicalised to fight and commit atrocities on the basis of a book that contains all the necessary verses to justify that behaviour. And the leaders of IS and other groups do believe in the Koran. They aren't secular politicians using religion for purely political ends. They are using war and politics to create an Islamic State run in accordance with a strict reading of the Koran and ruled by Sharia law.
I try to address this point, albeit without great levels of detail, in explaining that there is and has been a sophisticated and authoritative set of orthodox readings of the Qur'an and the other primary Islamic sources, the Hadith, that easily predates the real rise of these paramilitary thugs like ISIS. While I don't believe in the Bible, for instance, I don't consider that the hardline military-industrial complex representatives at the Pentagon are accurate representatives of what the Bible has to say on war and peace. Similarly, while a person may not believe in or have studied the Qur'an using traditional sources and commentaries, it should be acknowledged that it is possible to say which conclusions can be drawn from the Qur'an and which ones can't. There is no basis in the history of Islamic thought for the existence of a group like ISIS. (In fact, most Muslims that I've spoken to about this are of the opinion that ISIS are amongst the lawless, spiritually devoid and bloodthirsty groups called the khawarij that the Prophet (pbuh) warned about, who would put the ordinary Muslim to shame when it came to prayer and fasting, but whose hearts would be like stone.) They're really isn't an acceptable way of studying the Qur'an that leads to a group like ISIS existing. Even many of the scholars that these groups tend to cite did not ascribe to the ideologies that you see today, but their writings are apparently just too sophisticated for groups like ISIS.

To give you an idea about what actual Islamic thought on war is like, here's a leading British academic's take on the ethics of war in Islam. He doesn't really take sides, he just provides all of the different opinions within Islamic thought throughout history. It's quite long, but worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0XIKT5IFlM
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 02:31:51 pm by rscanderlech »