Author Topic: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.  (Read 42330 times)

Online Gifted Right Foot

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #320 on: August 1, 2013, 12:32:01 am »
I just don't get how some people can be so negative all the time.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #321 on: August 1, 2013, 12:35:06 am »


Sterling was overplayed and then overlooked, Borini barely featured and Henderson was offered in part ex for that we'll known  teen prodigy Clint Dempsey. Our first choice 11 until Suarez's ban was Reina, Johnson, Carra, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Gerrard, Coutinho, Downing, Henderson and Suarez. Even then the manager said we had too many kids and needed more men to play alongside Carra.

You're ridiculous, you picked out Sahin and Coates to try and prove some bizarre point about not giving the kids a chance (this is after you said we didn't buy top class kids, which was proven incorrect), yet I have clearly shown last season we did.

Between 3 kids all under 19 they played 75 games.

And all at under 24... Henderson played 44. Allen 37. Coutinho 13. Sturridge 16. Borini 20.

You're chatting shit.

Quote
I give up arguing with you mate this time next year when we are loaning out Toure and paying half his wages you will still be trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. To be successful in football you need two things above else the courage of your conviction and a stubborn streak this lot change their mind at the first sign of disquiet.

Of course mate, and you'll still be making one point, being proven incorrect, and quickly switching to another, and another, and another.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #322 on: August 1, 2013, 12:44:30 am »
You're ridiculous, you picked out Sahin and Coates to try and prove some bizarre point about not giving the kids a chance (this is after you said we didn't buy top class kids, which was proven incorrect), yet I have clearly shown last season we did.

Between 3 kids all under 19 they played 75 games.

And all at under 24... Henderson played 44. Allen 37. Coutinho 13. Sturridge 16. Borini 20.

You're chatting shit.

Of course mate, and you'll still be making one point, being proven incorrect, and quickly switching to another, and another, and another.


No mate your chattin shit we played the kids because we were threadbare whilst still in Europe. Funny how you conveniently forgot to mention the average age of our first 11 or the manager saying he wanted more men in the side. As I said courage of your convictions is what counts. Again how many of the players who started against West Brom will get a game next season.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #323 on: August 1, 2013, 12:45:08 am »
It is nothing new for us to sign top Academy talents we have been doing it for years it started under Benitez and it is a smart way of recruiting players. The problem is you need to commit to it and have to give those players game time. Probably the most exciting night for years was watching a young vibrant Liverpool team tear West Bromwich Albion to pieces in the League Cup sadly by the end of the season very few of those players were getting a look in and the manager was talking about signing men. Probably the saddest sight was watching Carra getting dead rubber games at the end of the season ahead of Coates. If bright young talent like Sahin and Coates can't be indulged and persevered with then what chance have the next generation of bright young teens.

If we don't change our ways then we might well end up with another crop of Pacheco's, LeTallec and Pongolle's.

 :butt :butt :butt

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #324 on: August 1, 2013, 12:46:49 am »
No mate your chattin shit we played the kids because we were threadbare whilst still in Europe. Funny how you conveniently forgot to mention the average age of our first 11 or the manager saying he wanted more men in the side. As I said courage of your convictions is what counts. Again how many of the players who started against West Brom will get a game next season.

It doesn't matter if its because we were threadbare, it doesn't matter if they aren't starters, it doesn't matter if Rodgers wants more men in the side.

The fact is kids got games, a lot of them - which goes totally against what you were saying.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #325 on: August 1, 2013, 01:03:17 am »
I wonder if the people complaining about FSG not taking "financial risks" realise exactly how close we were to administration before FSG took over?

People can take financial risks at the casino if they like, but if they're going to run OUR Liverpool for us, they'd better have a sound fucking business model!!

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #326 on: August 1, 2013, 01:09:33 am »
It doesn't matter if its because we were threadbare, it doesn't matter if they aren't starters, it doesn't matter if Rodgers wants more men in the side.

The fact is kids got games, a lot of them - which goes totally against what you were saying.


Of course it matters you can't say you are building a young vibrant side but only play them when your older experienced players are injured or out of form. You cant say you want to build a young vibrant side and then bring in the likes of Toure. You cant say you want to reduce the wage bill and then cling on to your older players.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #327 on: August 1, 2013, 01:12:56 am »
I wonder if the people complaining about FSG not taking "financial risks" realise exactly how close we were to administration before FSG took over?

People can take financial risks at the casino if they like, but if they're going to run OUR Liverpool for us, they'd better have a sound fucking business model!!


Unless FSG have taken out massive leveraged loans and can't afford the repayments then how close we came to administration is about as relevant as Enrique 's next hair cut.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #328 on: August 1, 2013, 01:16:34 am »


Of course it matters you can't say you are building a young vibrant side but only play them when your older experienced players are injured or out of form. You cant say you want to build a young vibrant side and then bring in the likes of Toure. You cant say you want to reduce the wage bill and then cling on to your older players.

Youngest average age in the league.

75 games between 3 19 and under year olds.

Shit loads of games between a massive bunch of 24 and under year olds.

We've just signed Alberto who is young. Toure is an old head and its likely Papa will come in who will be a starter, and is 21.

Mignolet has not long turned 25 and will be the starting keeper in place of a soon to be 31 year old.


Honestly if you can't see it then its pointless discussing it.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #329 on: August 1, 2013, 01:24:26 am »


Of course it matters you can't say you are building a young vibrant side but only play them when your older experienced players are injured or out of form. You cant say you want to build a young vibrant side and then bring in the likes of Toure. You cant say you want to reduce the wage bill and then cling on to your older players.

If you are now trying to argue that we don't give youth a chance you have truly jumped the shark.

If you were to ask any neutral which team gave the most opportunities to young players last year you would not find an answer outside either Liverpool or Villa.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #330 on: August 1, 2013, 01:29:11 am »
If you are now trying to argue that we don't give youth a chance you have truly jumped the shark.

If you were to ask any neutral which team gave the most opportunities to young players last year you would not find an answer outside either Liverpool or Villa.

He is trolling, he has to be.

Starts off saying we aren't buying youth, then we are but its cast offs, then tries to say we aren't giving youth a chance.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #331 on: August 1, 2013, 01:30:00 am »
Youngest average age in the league.

75 games between 3 19 and under year olds.

Shit loads of games between a massive bunch of 24 and under year olds.

We've just signed Alberto who is young. Toure is an old head and its likely Papa will come in who will be a starter, and is 21.

Mignolet has not long turned 25 and will be the starting keeper in place of a soon to be 31 year old.


Honestly if you can't see it then its pointless discussing it.
Two of the 19 year olds we wanted to send out on loan mate if you leave yourself desperately short and are then forced to play kids it isn't a choice it is a necessity. As for Mignolet he us replacing a keeper who was around 22/23  when he arrived as we're Agger and Skrtel as well as the likes of Alonso, Maacherano etc.

You speak as if FSG are inventing the notion of signing young players. The problem is though that it is clearly something the manager is not comfortable with. Next season it will be Agger +1 for me initially Toure has as much chance of being the plus one as Papa does because it's half arsed. How many of the kids got a look in after the Oldham game
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #332 on: August 1, 2013, 01:30:45 am »
Aren't agenda driven posts/posters meant to be un-welcome on the site? Was a decent thread till the usual suspects came a visiting!

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #333 on: August 1, 2013, 01:34:40 am »
Two of the 19 year olds we wanted to send out on loan mate if you leave yourself desperately short and are then forced to play kids it isn't a choice it is a necessity. As for Mignolet he us replacing a keeper who was around 22/23  when he arrived as we're Agger and Skrtel as well as the likes of Alonso, Maacherano etc.

What has the age we signed Reina at got to do with the fact were giving youth a chance last season and no doubt the coming one?

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You speak as if FSG are inventing the notion of signing young players. The problem is though that it is clearly something the manager is not comfortable with.

I'm not saying that at all, nowhere have I even suggested that was the case.

And that is rubbish with regards to Rodgers not being comfortable with it. Yes he may want a better mix, but there is no suggestion he isn't comfortable with giving kids games - in fact the exact opposite seems to be the case.

Quote
Next season it will be Agger +1 for me initially Toure has as much chance of being the plus one as Papa does because it's half arsed. How many of the kids got a look in after the Oldham game

Toure will prob start as Papa will be coming back from injury, doesn't mean he won't get plenty of game time by end of the season should be sign, as with the rest of the kids.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #334 on: August 1, 2013, 01:40:06 am »
He is trolling, he has to be.

Starts off saying we aren't buying youth, then we are but its cast offs, then tries to say we aren't giving youth a chance.
I didn't I said we aren't competing for the top young players which we clearly aren't. Unless you want to count players in their mid teens where the fallout rate us ridiculously high as we have shown time and time again. Or players that have failed at big clubs and may or may not. Half a decade ago we were giving Madrid and Barca a bloody nose now some of you are creaming yourself because we are poaching players years from the first team whilst they line up the likes of Neymar and Bale.

If we are going to give you the a chance then do it don't procrastinatinate about it whilst playing the likes of Carra and Toure.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #335 on: August 1, 2013, 01:43:54 am »
I didn't I said we aren't competing for the top young players which we clearly aren't. Unless you want to count players in their mid teens where the fallout rate us ridiculously high as we have shown time and time again. Or players that have failed at big clubs and may or may not. Half a decade ago we were giving Madrid and Barca a bloody nose now some of you are creaming yourself because we are poaching players years from the first team whilst they line up the likes of Neymar and Bale.

Ah here we go with you flip flopping again to what you 'really meant'.

Pointless replying to you to be honest, you're a troll plain and simple. Full of agenda driven negative shite.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #336 on: August 1, 2013, 02:29:28 am »
The difference is topline and bottomline.

We are consciously looking after our bottomline, cutting costs, trimming back (evidenced in wages control, getting young potential players as opposed to great ones)
That is the right thing to do in business.

However, the other important thing is to grow our topline as well.
Revenue generation, sponsorships, opening new markets. W are notbad in that aspect as well, with kit makers mega deals and Stanchart deals. We are trying to open new markets in Asia and the States.

What worries me is our actual product - the team. It's a solid, good product but not cutting edge in any way. We need ideas to refresh the club and the team, something to make us sexy again. We are relying on our past reliability but it can only get us so far. It can be done- witness the dramatic rise of Dortmund, Napoli.
Sorry for the business comparison, but the parallels are there.


Offline Eeyore

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #337 on: August 1, 2013, 02:57:06 am »
Ah here we go with you flip flopping again to what you 'really meant'.

Pointless replying to you to be honest, you're a troll plain and simple. Full of agenda driven negative shite.


Sorry Craig but flip flopping is saying speculation about players should not include players of a certain age and then signing players like Bellamy and Toure. Flip flopping is saying you are going for a young vibrant forward thinking coach and then appointing Kenny. Flip flopping is telling Pep Segura you are promoting him and then failing to do so. We need to make up our minds about which path we are going on. If we are going to cut the wage bill and create a young vibrant team then do it. Get everyone on the same page and go for it. Start selling our older players as they start to plateau, start backing our young players when they make mistakes and for gods sake show the courage of our convictions because at present there are far too many mixed messages coming out of the club and above all if you want a young team stop appointing managers who prefer older experienced players.
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Offline rlpolobear9

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #338 on: August 1, 2013, 03:16:00 am »
All for clearing out players who are not first choice but on huge salaries, and bringing in younger cheaper but talented options. You still need to mix in veterans xabi would be perfect for this squad toure will be good we still need at least three more players.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #339 on: August 1, 2013, 03:38:20 am »
And we're back again. We often miss the wood for the trees on this. It gets boring quickly when we toss out any facts and replace them with 'beliefs' and 'opinions' even when the evidence disagrees with them. 'They're asset stripping!!!!!!!!' 'They've put in nearly £80m in interest free loans since they came in that we know about, and we'd not have had a transfer budget without them' 'They're asset stripping!!!!!!'. Maybe one day we'll settle down a bit again. Realise that the constant hysteria is counterproductive should the day come when we do need to gather together again.

Agree rlpolobear9 on what you're saying there about the blend. I think that was something which came out of last summer, and with this new committee. We've seen it already with Toure. We've seen it with Gerrard's extended contracts. And we saw it with Rodgers asking Carra to stay on a bit longer rather than retiring last Christmas. There has to be some balance, and I think we've a manager who recognises that and will fight his corner over it. All the indications are that this group of men choosing the transfer targets with him also believe in this. It won't just be about kids. Nor even about those just about to hit maturity after a season or two with us (Sturridge is hardly a kid). I don't think anyone should pretend it will be easy or without mistakes. But it doesn't mean it's impossible. We've a much higher base to start from that others who have already done it to both limited and also much greater success.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #340 on: August 1, 2013, 03:43:58 am »
I just don't get how some people can be so negative all the time.

Welcome to the world of being a football fan, please wipe your feet and leave your coat at the door and take a seat.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #341 on: August 1, 2013, 04:34:10 am »
Ooooohhhh
We've got the best balance sheet in the world!
We've got Current Assets, Accumulated depreciation,
Goodwill and Accounts Payable!!!

Ha ha.

To be fair Mike Ashley is the best I think and Once Joe introduces the zero hours contracts we've got no chance of catching them (in the minge-bag* league)

* can you still say minge bag?

Offline keyo

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #342 on: August 1, 2013, 05:13:17 am »
interesting op, but it does take things in isolation a little bit.......it is a good idea to plan long-term, control operational costs and commitments and put yourself in a position to compete....but you cannot just take players out and replace them with lower wages and assume no impact......it is the case that we are not getting value for money - our wages bill is top 5, our league position outside the top 5.....so is the answer to lower our wages bill so it matches our league positiion and then try to over-perform?  getting younger players does lower the wage bill and increase the possibility of growth in performance as there is improvements to be made in their game and they do tend to be at the lower end of the wage scale early in their career (see coutinho, sturridge, kelly, wisdom, etc)

but this is where we get the conundrum, we still have to improve and i think we will improve next season on our performance in the last.....but we still need an improvement that reaches us to the champions league before we can get the benefit of extra income and then 'compete' for better players, pay higher wages (matching performance and payroll)....but if we do not manage to reach the champions league because we lack the quality and depth of our competitors, what do we do?  do we invest in players and boost our payroll above and beyond our performance to get in the quality needed?  to compete in the transfer market for players of the quality we need to improve us that edge with teams who are in the champions league  means we probably do have to pay higher wages to entice them, or go for players a level below

there is the chicken and the egg question.....what comes first, champions league quality players and the spending it entails, or champions league revenue to pay champions league wages?!?!

again, not the full picture but part of it......what arsenal have done over the last few years is similar, they have steadied the ship (because of their stadium commitments and obligations) by suppressing spending and wages, and appear now to be in a position to reap those rewards, however, their performance has suffered as they got further from top spot but managed to hang on to cl football but they are still seen as a destination that may not be the most attractive.........we are in a similar - but much less rosy - position...we cannot offer top wages or champions league football, we need to cut our cloth according to fit.....but we also have to realise that ultimately competing with united (massive turnover), city and chelsea (wealth already invested and available) will take alot more than sound budgeting in the short and long term, it will need investment at some point

but then, maybe rodgers is making sound investment decisions now, and the younger players coming through will ultimately develop into top players worthy of (and able to  deliver) champions league football

and as already stated the 500k is a little misleading as that is gross saving (some of which has not been made as skrtel has not even gone yet), and it ignores the fact that some of the contracts talked about (reina, carroll, assaidi, bellamy, adam) were signed whilst the current board was in charge, so they are saving money they spent in the first place, hardly clearing the decks from previous regimes!! so well done there....
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #343 on: August 1, 2013, 05:51:08 am »
Craig - your enduring quality is your patience and that's the reason why your posts are enlightening and a joy to read. Thank you. Thou doth speakest sense, always, and grateful for it.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #344 on: August 1, 2013, 07:17:32 am »


Unless FSG have taken out massive leveraged loans and can't afford the repayments then how close we came to administration is about as relevant as Enrique 's next hair cut.

Did they?

I thought they got the club for a pretty decent price, certainly a LOT less than what the cowboys wanted. Nothing to suggest they couldn't afford it, and they have history in running successful sports franchises.

What makes you think after their sound financial management of the past, that they're now going to ruin Liverpool?

It makes no sense.

Offline fowler9_god

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #345 on: August 1, 2013, 07:39:57 am »

Sorry Craig but flip flopping is saying speculation about players should not include players of a certain age and then signing players like Bellamy and Toure. Flip flopping is saying you are going for a young vibrant forward thinking coach and then appointing Kenny. Flip flopping is telling Pep Segura you are promoting him and then failing to do so. We need to make up our minds about which path we are going on. If we are going to cut the wage bill and create a young vibrant team then do it. Get everyone on the same page and go for it. Start selling our older players as they start to plateau, start backing our young players when they make mistakes and for gods sake show the courage of our convictions because at present there are far too many mixed messages coming out of the club and above all if you want a young team stop appointing managers who prefer older experienced players.

We are a Jekyll and Hyde team. We have Jekyll and Hyde supporters. I think it comes down to our philosophy, because when it works it looks good. When it doesn't we start doubting ourselves as we are not sure what we want to achieve at the first place.

Whoever is doing well without money becomes our ambition.

I think no one is sure what they want to do.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #346 on: August 1, 2013, 07:54:01 am »
But the fee's being offered clearly don't make sense to sell now.

It's like if you owned a house, had enough money to buy another better one without the sale of the current one effecting it, would you accept £50k when it is worth £100k, or would you rent it out for a year to cover all your running costs and sell it on when more potential buyers were in the market the following year?

What you say sounds fair, but I think it's a poor excuse. We should just get the deals done. And by that I mean we should sell those we don't want to keep. It's up to us to make sure it happens and we get the money we deserve. That's part of the package. And with Skrtel being out of the first team for almost half a season, we've had enough time to look for a solution.


I think that's a little unfair. The first step was players like Maxi, Kuyt, Aurelio, Poulsen, Cole - in the case of the first two, declining players offering less and less, in the others, who never offered anything. It's unfair to suggest we're just starting on this process or have made no progress at all.

One Joe Cole is probably equivalent to all the players you suggest with the exception of Downing. The reasons we have still had work to do are the wages given to certain Dalglish/Comolli signings and the new contracts given to established 'star' players. Unfortunately a couple of those stars have slipped down the hierarchy - partly as a result of a change in manager, partly poor form and age.

Had almost managed to forget Cole. Why did you need to mention him? ;) We've made some absolutely shocking transfers in the last few years. It's a big job to set things straight. I think we've failed, big time in some of those cases, so a lot of work remains. It's still hurting us, but that's something I've already mentioned a lot of times. 

The thing I touched on above is one area I think we've missed. We talk high earners and how we need to lose for example Skrtel because of his wages. What I wanted to highlight was that there is an alternative. We offload players. And if we did that, we could get the wages down. But it would have the advantage that we'd also create room for new players. The ones we'd lose would be players with no real future at the club, players who have had no real impact for us. So there's very little to lose there.

In short, keep Skrtel and let the departures of Spearing, Flanagan, Morgan, Pacheco and Assaidi pay for his wages. Then we consider what to do with Skrtel.

The situation I don't want, is where we loan Spearing, Pacheco & Co and then we loan Reina and then we loan Skrtel. We trim the wage bill for this season. People celebrate, but we're not solving the problem. We're just delaying it. Those four could finance a purchase of a first team player, let alone pay for the wages. Because we managed to sell Carroll and Shelvey, we're on ~0 net spend this summer. That wouldn't have happened had we just loaned them out. We need more of the same and we might as well start with the backups.

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Offline Byrneand

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #347 on: August 1, 2013, 08:03:01 am »
As I said our wage bill is/was £120m compared to Spurs' £90m.

Spurs are on the cusp of finishing in the top four and earning Champions League money while paying significantly lower wages than us.

It is about spending wisely not spending more.

I was thinking about this last night. You’ve (unfortunately) got to give Spurs a lot of credit for their development over the last 5-10 years. I haven’t looked into the real drivers of their success but certainly the aura of being financially savvy appears well founded given my brief analysis and highlights the gulf between LFC and them.

We've been absolutely shocking over the last 5 years. I went through the ins and outs of both teams since 2008 (its in excel so don’t know how to link), but the list of names is quite shocking.  Highlights would be that Spurs have had a net spend  of £23m versus our £78m. Big transfers (>£15m) include:

Liverpool

Ins: Aquilani (£20m), Glen Johnson (£15m), Henderson (£16m), Suarez (£23m), Carroll (£35m), Downing (£20m), Allen (£15m).
Outs: Carroll (£15m), Mascherano (£18.5m), Torres (£50m), Alonso (£30).

Total Ins: £252m
Total outs: £175m
Net spend: £77.55m

Tottenham (excludes Bale transaction)

Ins: Paulinho (£17m), Dembele (£15m).
Outs: Modric (£33m)

Total ins: £131m
Total outs: £107.6m
Net spend £22.95m

Happy to send anyone the full analysis and look its not perfect; just pulled the stats from www.transfermarkt.co.uk so not really checked validity of data. Some key takeaways for me however include:

a) The various owners since 2009 have actually backed the club and have not “asset stripped if you like”. Yes they have reduced the wage bill but have been paying out transfer fees.
b) The club seem to be targeting players in the £6-12m range. This is actually a strategy that has worked for Tottenham. The sad reality for me of this strategy is that it basically admits that your not competing for top level players and are instead targeting “up and coming” players who still have work to prove but have the ability to go from being £6m players to £25-30m players. This shouldn’t come as a shock as the strategy has been well publicised but it will be interesting to see what happens when these players do make it and bigger fish come knocking. E.g. What will management do if Courtinho and Sturridge are the star players of the year, but we still end up 5th. XYZ club comes knocking and offers £35m for each of them. I don’t think this has really been tested out and will determine if we’ve become a “selling” club or not.
c) It’s obviously going to be difficult to compete with Man U, Chelsea, Man City.. and now potentially Arsenal (for various reasons) are in the market for proven world class players.
d) Liverpool have “wasted” an awful lot of money on poor acquisitions and player churn.

Focussing on this last point, I think the best example of this is players who have been bought and then sold within 2-3 years. You look at Liverpool and we've effectively thrown away £50m on churning distinctly average players.

Liverpool   (in price, out price)                                                                   Tottenham      
Charlie Adam                    9   5                                     Louis Saha                          0   0
Joe Cole*                         0   0                                     Rafael van der Vaart           8   10.3
Danny Wilson                   2   0                                     Steven Pienaar                         3         3
Christian Poulson             4.5   0                                     Peter Crouch                         9   10
Raul Meireles                  11.5   12.5                                    Sebastian Bassong         8   0
Paul Konchesky                  3   0                                    Niko Kranjcar                        2.5   2
Andy Carroll                   35   15                                                                              30.5   25.3
Alberto Aquillani              20   0            
                                    85   32.5            

* I left Cole in but appreciate there was little capital outlay. I couldn’t see any similar style players in the Spurs lineout.

When you look at the longer list of ins and outs this seasons signings aside (given their unproven), the only in names that are any decent have been Glen Johnson, Suarez,  Courtinho and Sturridge.. and in the other direction we've seen Alonso, Torres, Mascherano, Kuyt  and Reina leave and yet still managed to have a net spend of £78mn. The only hope I have is that Courtinho and Sturridge have been signed in the last 12 months and so we've hopefully turned a corner on that. For me its our recruitment that we really need to get right. If Suarez does go then hopefully we use that money wisely and equally lets hope Arsenal and Tottenham blow their newfound riches (if Bale leaves) on dross!

One final disappointment is that there’s been numerous comments on here comparing us to Tottenham (my own analysis above)…. What’s the club come too?? “How can we make our strategy as good as a team that win chuff all oscillate between4th and 6th. Disappointing.

As I mention above, lets try and take a glass half full approach; It does look like we’ve turned a corner somewhat since 2011. Over the last three transfer windows, our ins have been: Courtinho (£8.5m) , Sturridge (£12m), Yesil (£1m), Assiadi (£2.4m), Allen (£15m), Borini (£10.5m), Toure (Free), Mignolet (£9m), Apas (£7.2m) and Alberto (£6.8m). At the same time we’ve drawn a line in the sand and permanently shifted Cole, Adam, Aquillani, Carroll and then rightly or wrongly (lets not open up that debate) Rodriguez, Kuyt and Shelvey. Of our transfers, I think most would agree that Courtinho and Sturridge have been a hit, Borini and Allen still have to prove their worth (Allen less so.. but he was £15m), and then we’ll wait and see on this years crop. But it seems as if our scouting department may be getting their act together, and hopefully avoiding some of the wasting of cash on transfers and wages of non-core players. 

Yes, there have been multiple poor decisions over the last 5 years but lets not get ourselves down. Where do we stand now:

- The past is the past with regards transfers, but we seem to be getting our act together; whilst its sad to see Reina go, the club have acted decisively and got in one of the best young goal keepers in for a reasonable price. We’ve been pro-active!
- We also need to remember that we had a great 2nd half to the season with these players. In the second half of the season we came 3rd!!!
- We are Liverpool football club. We’re not some small time club, we’re one of the most successful clubs in the world ever. We generate MASSIVE revenues; £189m in 2011/2012 and the 9th largest in the world. We get the cash in, we just need to use it wisely!
« Last Edit: August 1, 2013, 08:12:14 am by Byrneand »
If you can't walk in a straight line.... you shouldn't be playing for Liverpool. End of

Offline Frizzo

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #348 on: August 1, 2013, 08:24:21 am »

Sorry Craig but flip flopping is saying speculation about players should not include players of a certain age and then signing players like Bellamy and Toure.

How much did we pay for Bellamy and Toure? Combined. I could tell you, and I don't even need a calculator.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #349 on: August 1, 2013, 08:25:24 am »
Win a cup, qualify for the CL, activate some sponsorship (Standard Chartered/Warrior) and there's at least £500k per week added revenue.

As always, there is a cost of not doing something.
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Offline Frizzo

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #350 on: August 1, 2013, 08:26:04 am »
Oh, and Bellamy played a big part in us winning a trophy.

FSG has a clear policy on not overspending on players that are past their prime, and on not overpaying players who aren't contributing to the team. Can you not see that?

Offline Beerbelly

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #351 on: August 1, 2013, 08:30:57 am »
So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

"Going down the Tory route" :) I think this is a bit of the mark. So I know it's new Labour now but you cant be telling me the Labour philosophy would be paying 100K a week to a reserve goal keeper... the analogies crack me up. So its Tory cost cutting behind the clubs wows I should have guessed this. Then again I suppose not too many socialist millionaire investors around buying clubs for hundreds of millions of pounds as I imagine they would rather be spending the millions on philanthropy, oh they shouldn't have millions in the first place under the socialist route so we will never know will we.

Perhaps making LFC state owned is the answer. Now that model would suit the current situation waste loads of money provide mediocre service, blame the Tory's for all management short comings and employ those individuals the private sector don't want to sit on the bench with inflated salaries. Maybe that is the winning formula. Maybe Derek Hatton can be CEO he knows how to overspend by millions....

Offline -HH-

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #352 on: August 1, 2013, 08:42:47 am »
It's very clear that whatever your view that if we can trim the wage bill while improving on the pitch that it doesn't just make sense from a business viewpoint but also from a football viewpoint, in the sense that it frees up money to be invested in the squad in transfer fees. That it has become such a hot topic for fans says a lot about how much it has been talked about in public in the wake of the H and G era.

The thing is, such costcutting can be done very well or very badly, and regardless of your agenda on either side of that it is too early to tell. So far it is encouraging. The wage bill is down and we are moving in the right direction in the league in both finishing position and number of points. But the proof will be in the pudding in the next few years as the contracts from previous eras run to the end and more new faces come in.

That's surely as much as there is to say on what is a practical decision by the club but essentially a fairly dull subject.
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Offline TSC

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #353 on: August 1, 2013, 08:59:34 am »
Ironically though, the reason we don't have that stadium is because the club wasnt being run properly prior to H&G coming in.

Yep and under G&H of course it all went swimmingly well.

That's a tad unfair anyway.  They (Moores and Parry) may have realised investment was needed for a new ground, but under all previous owners prior to the yank disaster we always competed at the top.  And that was despite not raking it in as much as they should have commercially.  Problem with Moores and Parry is they simply lacked the nous for whatever reason and didn't carry out the research which would have steered them well clear of the yanks. 

Ironic really that 6 years after that original sale we're still playing to the same capacity, only finishing mid table.  They may as well never have sold up.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #354 on: August 1, 2013, 09:18:25 am »
"Going down the Tory route" :) I think this is a bit of the mark. So I know it's new Labour now but you cant be telling me the Labour philosophy would be paying 100K a week to a reserve goal keeper... the analogies crack me up. So its Tory cost cutting behind the clubs wows I should have guessed this. Then again I suppose not too many socialist millionaire investors around buying clubs for hundreds of millions of pounds as I imagine they would rather be spending the millions on philanthropy, oh they shouldn't have millions in the first place under the socialist route so we will never know will we.

Perhaps making LFC state owned is the answer. Now that model would suit the current situation waste loads of money provide mediocre service, blame the Tory's for all management short comings and employ those individuals the private sector don't want to sit on the bench with inflated salaries. Maybe that is the winning formula. Maybe Derek Hatton can be CEO he knows how to overspend by millions....

i suspect 'going down the tory route' relates to stabilising by cost cutting through wage control......as opposed to spending to generate increased revenues
both are economic theories (monetarism v keynesian) and both can be applied to macro and micro economics
in our case, micro-economics, we can save in order to live comfortably within our means, demand more form the players who are lower paid and hopefully get a result as we achieve results that equates to or is better than our payroll (relative to other clubs) as opposed to the current level of underachievement in terms of relative wage costs
or we can maintain high levels of investment to try to achieve higher revenues through success sooner rather than later

the second is more of a gamble as it requires success to be achieved sooner - and for the rewards (cl money, improved commercial deal, increased tv revenue share, etc) to follow, but that is what investment is about - risk and return....the issue we had with the first couple of years of fsg is that the investment did not provide a return, so it would appear they are now going down a more conservative route of controlling costs in order to enable prudent investment and more 'organic' growth

we need to improve performances, we need to gget a better return from the wages we pay....that much is clear when you look at the numbers.....how we do that is trickier, and as the saying goes the proof of the pudding is in the eating (sorry HH, just noticed you already said that!!).....my view is that whilst i think rodgers is building well, and improving our cohesion and ultimately our output, there will come a time when his capacity to deliver will be dependent upon our investment, and then we will see if the cost saving produces the required resources and rodgers' performance inspires sufficient confidence for the owners to invest in the required quality......and if they are willing to invest

lots of people have their entrenched view both ways...i tend to think we need investment still, but that we are still moving in the right direction.....we are on a slow track, and that slow track is tracking everton, spurs and, maybe, arsenal initially with the view of overhauling them and setting ourselves up for a tilt at chelsea, city and united....i may be wrong, but that is my view.....and honestly, it seems sensible....but does run the risk of being left behind by the top 3 and arsenal, and spurs if they continue to invest wisely
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Offline paulrazor

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #355 on: August 1, 2013, 09:38:38 am »
not sure we saved 500k but we have saved a lot

have to take into account a lot of players like skrtel agger and suarez got pay raises.

lot of heavy hitters have been removed from the books since fenway came in

torres was on 110k jovanovic was meant to be on about the same!!!!!!!!!! konchesky and poulsen were on that between them. babel was probably on about 60k.

last summer we got a lot of heavy wages off the books like kuyt, bellamy, adam, carroll and maxi (probably 400k there alone)

have to take into account too the players we signed though in the winter we atleast offloaded about 50k of joe coles wages.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #356 on: August 1, 2013, 09:45:29 am »
Slightly more than a mid sized club? Are you joking?

Not sure anyone is suggesting what were doing is anything new, just new to us (well, new to us given recent times).


financially yes in european terms. I did say financially. However with our worldwide supporter base we should be much richer than the likes of spurs and arsenal. But due to being poorly run for over two decades we're not.

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #357 on: August 1, 2013, 09:52:52 am »
Yep and under G&H of course it all went swimmingly well.

That's a tad unfair anyway.  They (Moores and Parry) may have realised investment was needed for a new ground, but under all previous owners prior to the yank disaster we always competed at the top.  And that was despite not raking it in as much as they should have commercially.  Problem with Moores and Parry is they simply lacked the nous for whatever reason and didn't carry out the research which would have steered them well clear of the yanks. 

Ironic really that 6 years after that original sale we're still playing to the same capacity, only finishing mid table.  They may as well never have sold up.

The problem is the Champions League mate, back in the Moores and Parry days the extra income wasnt that much so we could still compete financially and players werent so fussed about playing in it, since then its grown massivly both in terms of money and players wanting to play in it. Then chuck in a few sugar daddies (Abramovich was the only one around back then) and suddenly we find ourselves where we are now.
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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #358 on: August 1, 2013, 09:54:40 am »
The problem is the Champions League mate, back in the Moores and Parry days the extra income wasnt that much so we could still compete financially and players werent so fussed about playing in it, since then its grown massivly both in terms of money and players wanting to play in it. Then chuck in a few sugar daddies (Abramovich was the only one around back then) and suddenly we find ourselves where we are now.
its very hard to get back in to it once you fall out of it. our problem was the money dried up under the cancers
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Offline naka

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Re: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.
« Reply #359 on: August 1, 2013, 09:56:22 am »
was up early this morning so had a chance to read through some very well thought out and articulate posts by you guys.
we all aspire for lfc to be challenging and there is of course an acceptance that we as a club have wasted million over the course of the past few seasons on under performing players.
whlst i accept the rationale behind the reina move as well as the new concept of buying young and developing
we as was shown on the 2013 tour are one of the biggest clubs in the world with all the associated advantages( merchandising,sponsorship etc) attached to this, we will also pack out the aviva in dublin( remember celtic played there within the past 2 years in the dublin tournamnet with city and i think milan to relatively small crowds, make no mistake LFC are the draw).
the fear i have is that  by downsizing the team and in ayres words by disregarding the domestic cups  and by losing the names " Reina" Torres, Carra, and if suarez goes we necome less attractive as a club to market because effectively our star names will be stevie ( in his twilight )and coutinho who I worry will be seduced by Spain in the next few years) and we will not have the exposure to finals.
Whilst Kenny mightnt have been FSGs man i am sure most arasenal/spurs fans would have loved to be at wembley 3 times in one year playing in semi finals and finals as well as the second leg against city