Topic: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.

[TitanTrigger]

It was reported early on after their acquisition of the club that FSG were shocked by the size of Liverpool’s wage bill, especially players on vast wages who were not key members of the squad.
Surely FSG were aware of the wage bill before their acquisition of the club,that would be a basic part of due dilligence.

I'm sure they were, I think the point is more that the players who were on the big wages were not necessarily the ones contributing most to the team

[djphal]

Is that true or are we struggling to sign players because we have no European football?

Very true, we have lost out on 2 big players because of it

[Byrneand]

^ Sorry for basically repeating what Gnurglan said. He beat me to it!

[TSC]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

Why would any supporters care how much cash the owners trousered through cost cutting?  Unless it results in strengthening of the first team directly then it only becomes noticeable when end of year accounts are published.  I know bean counters may jizz at that prospect, but ordinary supporters wouldn't.

[GBF]

Look at spurs right now. Soldado, Paulinho. Look at Monaco.

Dont forget that living in London or Monaco (tax free) is far more attractive to live than the North West of England for a lot of foreigners

[Funky_Gibbons]

Look at spurs right now. Soldado, Paulinho. Look at Monaco.

Would that be the tax haven where foreigners don't pay tax? Hard to see why footballers would be attracted there.......

[redmark]

Look at spurs right now. Soldado, Paulinho. Look at Monaco.

Spurs pay lower wages than we do.

[Gnurglan]

Yes we have an over inflated wage bill. But You can't fix it as quick as we're trying to do. I see Tony Barrett is saying we;re having trouble attracting the big names. It's simply because we don't want to pay them what they want, when other teams will. It's costing us. There needs to be a balance

The answer is to trim the squad where it doesn't hurt us. That's the first step and we still have some easy wins to make. We're talking players like Flanagan, Spearing, Pacheco, Morgan and after that Assaidi, Coates, perhaps Downing or Borini. We're talking 6-7 players who made next to no, or zero contribution to our side last season. Those seven/eight going should give us one new first team player. Very little negative impact on the squad, but a real improvement to the side.

This is the transition that remains to be done. We've started this window well with Shelvey and Carroll out, so if we can keep doing it, we'll have the money. Whether we can attract the player when we lack European football is a different matter, but we should have the cash for it.

[djphal]

Look at spurs right now. Soldado, Paulinho. Look at Monaco.

We were after Soldado, he turned us down

[Byrneand]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

I refer you to IFRS 72: Football BS standard IV

[CHOPPER]

We were after Soldado, he turned us down

Phew, dodged a bullet there. Bet ye a tenner that fucker would of wanted wages.

[redmark]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

Why would any supporters care how much cash the owners trousered through cost cutting?  Unless it results in strengthening of the first team directly then it only becomes noticeable when end of year accounts are published.  I know bean counters may jizz at that prospect, but ordinary supporters wouldn't.

I think it's preferable to have a discussion about the wage bill as a whole to inform debate about the relative value of certain players, than for certain posters to claim FSG's sole purpose is to slash the wage bill every time a Liverpool player is linked with a move away.

[CraigDS]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

Why would any supporters care how much cash the owners trousered through cost cutting?  Unless it results in strengthening of the first team directly then it only becomes noticeable when end of year accounts are published.  I know bean counters may jizz at that prospect, but ordinary supporters wouldn't.

Then they don't need to come in here then do they 

[TSC]

I think it's preferable to have a discussion about the wage bill as a whole to inform debate about the relative value of certain players, than for certain posters to claim FSG's sole purpose is to slash the wage bill every time a Liverpool player is linked with a move away.

Well someone posted on the previous page that wage cutting had saved £25m per annum.  So where are all these savings going?  Don't appear to be going on players anyway

[Gnurglan]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

Why would any supporters care how much cash the owners trousered through cost cutting?  Unless it results in strengthening of the first team directly then it only becomes noticeable when end of year accounts are published.  I know bean counters may jizz at that prospect, but ordinary supporters wouldn't.

Why? Because people want to be able to say that there's this great new structure in place. We want to be able to say that everything is coming together, using this masterplan of ours. We're really clever. And it's possibly an excuse for failure. "We can't compete, but we're doing the right stuff." That kind of thinking.

[djphal]

Phew, dodged a bullet there. Bet ye a tenner that fucker would of wanted wages.

he aint the only one either!

[CraigDS]

Agree. I'd see a loan of Skrtel as an easy way out. If we want him replaced - sell. Make the decision and get it done.

But the fee's being offered clearly don't make sense to sell now.

It's like if you owned a house, had enough money to buy another better one without the sale of the current one effecting it, would you accept £50k when it is worth £100k, or would you rent it out for a year to cover all your running costs and sell it on when more potential buyers were in the market the following year?

[TSC]

Then they don't need to come in here then do they 

Yep why debate the transfer activity, or lack of thereof, relative strengths of the football team, etc, when we can discuss the relative strength of the P&L and Balance Sheet.

If there are great demands to debate the P&L and Balance Sheet etc then maybe it would be best off in a suitable forum?

[Fanxxxxtastic]

You can't compare us to United and Chelsea though.

One is funded via a sugar daddy and is in the CL, the other has a ridiculous turnover.

We need to build up to that level not roll the dice spending money we don't have.

So, are you calling the owners liars?  Werner said, 'We have the money to compete with any team in the world, and that we don't want to get the wage bill down.  We want to increase it.  We have the resources to do that'.

It's not like we're a non entity of a team, we have massive turnover, and it just feels like penny pinching for the sake of it.

[redmark]

The answer is to trim the squad where it doesn't hurt us. That's the first step and we still have some easy wins to make. We're talking players like Flanagan, Spearing, Pacheco, Morgan and after that Assaidi, Coates, perhaps Downing or Borini. We're talking 6-7 players who made next to no, or zero contribution to our side last season. Those seven/eight going should give us one new first team player. Very little negative impact on the squad, but a real improvement to the side.

This is the transition that remains to be done. We've started this window well with Shelvey and Carroll out, so if we can keep doing it, we'll have the money. Whether we can attract the player when we lack European football is a different matter, but we should have the cash for it.

I think that's a little unfair. The first step was players like Maxi, Kuyt, Aurelio, Poulsen, Cole - in the case of the first two, declining players offering less and less, in the others, who never offered anything. It's unfair to suggest we're just starting on this process or have made no progress at all.

One Joe Cole is probably equivalent to all the players you suggest with the exception of Downing. The reasons we have still had work to do are the wages given to certain Dalglish/Comolli signings and the new contracts given to established 'star' players. Unfortunately a couple of those stars have slipped down the hierarchy - partly as a result of a change in manager, partly poor form and age.

[CraigDS]

Yep why debate the transfer activity, or lack of thereof, relative strengths of the football team, etc, when we can discuss the relative strength of the P&L and Balance Sheet.

If there are great demands to debate the P&L and Balance Sheet etc then maybe it would be best off in a suitable forum?

Look if you don't like these threads stay out of them, it's that simple.

[tommy LFC]

Oh no.  Bean counters have been infiltrating a few threads in recent weeks, mainly to justify the lack of purchases/extent of sales.  And now here we have it, an accountancy thread.

Why would any supporters care how much cash the owners trousered through cost cutting?  Unless it results in strengthening of the first team directly then it only becomes noticeable when end of year accounts are published.  I know bean counters may jizz at that prospect, but ordinary supporters wouldn't.

After the ownership troubles we've had and how badly we were run in the past, I think we should be concerned about it.

And I would love to hear your definition of "ordinary supporters".

[redmark]

Well someone posted on the previous page that wage cutting had saved £25m per annum.  So where are all these savings going?  Don't appear to be going on players anyway

It's not my figure of £25m, but some of it was reinvested well, some poorly, some on new contracts for Suarez, Gerrard, Agger, Skrtel, Kelly etc.

[CraigDS]

So, are you calling the owners liars?  Werner said, 'We have the money to compete with any team in the world, and that we don't want to get the wage bill down.  We want to increase it.  We have the resources to do that'.

It's not like we're a non entity of a team, we have massive turnover, and it just feels like penny pinching for the sake of it.

We made massive losses each of the last 4 or 5 years, even since we've taken the loan/interest repayments away caused by H&G, and even ignoring the massive stadium write offs. It is certainly not for the sake of it.

As I think it was a stupid comment from him, we have the ability to pay big wages (and do) but we can't compete with £200k a week payers.

[CraigDS]

Well someone posted on the previous page that wage cutting had saved £25m per annum.  So where are all these savings going?  Don't appear to be going on players anyway

They are covering the massive losses we were making, the club only propped up by the onwers cash injections and no doubt the credit facility.

[clinical]

So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

[firing squad]

if we want to reduce the wage bill than it would be much better to offload Stewart Downing than Martin Skrtel.  Just saying.

[CraigDS]

So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

We've spent £50m net in the last two windows...

[TitanTrigger]

So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

Tottenham have made fourth twice on lower spending than we have currently

[momo22]

he aint the only one either!

Who else has mate?

[Red number seven]

losing Pepe made sense, we got Mig in (assumedly on drastically lower wages).

Only if the whole deal is cheaper (inc the fee, the fee we receive ultimately for Pepe and the wages saved) and/or Mignolet is better.

11 million pound fee is not insignificant (20k per week for 11 years in "wages" terms) and it is quite ironic that we are at the point now of only talking wages and ignoring fees, where it used to be the other way around.

[CraigDS]

if we want to reduce the wage bill than it would be much better to offload Stewart Downing than Martin Skrtel.  Just saying.

Not if we're bringing in another CB it doesn't.

[Funky_Gibbons]

So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

As I said our wage bill is/was £120m compared to Spurs' £90m.

Spurs are on the cusp of finishing in the top four and earning Champions League money while paying significantly lower wages than us.

It is about spending wisely not spending more.

[CraigDS]

As I said our wage bill is/was £120m compared to Spurs' £90m.

Spurs are on the cusp of finishing in the top four and earning Champions League money while paying significantly lower wages than us.

It is about spending wisely not spending more.

Ours was £131m in last accounts to their £90m.

[redmark]

So is the reality we can't get back into the top four with these owners? Nothing against them because I don't think they've done a terrible job. But as you're all saying we need to cut wages. The only way we get back there is to invest

We're going down the Tory route in making cuts as opposed to investing

No, that's not what is being said. We need to get better value from the players we have. That will require a greater proportion of the total contribution (say 418 PL 'player-games' per season) coming from younger, cheaper options - particularly the 'peripheral' contributions. But the core can be well paid, established professionals. The idea is that - comparing a few years ago - you have Sterling or Ibe on the bench instead of Dirk Kuyt or Joe Cole; Toure (on about £40k) rather than Carragher on £100k.

At some point, a 'sweet spot' has to be found where a core of well paid established players and a bunch of cheaper, younger players have to be good enough to make top four, increase revenues and attract better players. But that sweet spot can be found without investing hundreds of millions.

[clinical]

We've spent £50m net in the last two windows...

I don't think that's true. Yes we've spent a bit but not that much.

As I said our wage bill is/was £120m compared to Spurs' £90m.

Spurs are on the cusp of finishing in the top four and earning Champions League money while paying significantly lower wages than us.

It is about spending wisely not spending more.

I agree with that actually. They've been much much better than us in the market over the last few years.

Right now Spurs are improving again, whilst we're not really get any first teamers in

[Funky_Gibbons]

Ours was £131m in last accounts to their £90m.

Thanks for putting my numbers right.

It shows there is value out there and that you can compete without having to pay extortionate wages.

I'm not saying we should be aspiring to Spurs' level but they have decent squad/team and their model works. Once you get top four then you can start paying higher wages and transfer fees to stay there and hopefully challenge for the higher places.

[Byrneand]

But the fee's being offered clearly don't make sense to sell now.

It's like if you owned a house, had enough money to buy another better one without the sale of the current one effecting it, would you accept £50k when it is worth £100k, or would you rent it out for a year to cover all your running costs and sell it on when more potential buyers were in the market the following year?

I understand your point but off the top of my head I can think of very few cases where this actually plays out and they come back from a loan and someone offers you the £100k you quote. On the flip side, first hand, I can think of Aquilani, Cole and Carroll who have all caused us pain as the contracts drain down. From what I understand, the loan income very rarely makes up for a) the loss of capital price and b) the fact that quite often we still contribute to wages in a lot of cases, thus the savings are not what initially as they seem. (e.g. are we not still paying 40% of Reina's wages at Napoli, despite them being loaded from selling Cavani)

[redmark]

Only if the whole deal is cheaper (inc the fee, the fee we receive ultimately for Pepe and the wages saved) and/or Mignolet is better.

11 million pound fee is not insignificant (20k per week for 11 years in "wages" terms) and it is quite ironic that we are at the point now of only talking wages and ignoring fees, where it used to be the other way around.

Why Sky's £11m rather than the BBCs £9m? The other factor is age, and that in five years (performances warranting), Mignolet will still be worth what Reina is now.

[Thebigbrownbear]

Martin Skrtel is on a reported £70,000 per week,
Reina was on a reported £100,000 per week wage.
Stewart Downing, reportedly on £70,000 per week
Andy Carroll, on a reported £85,000 per week.
Alberto Aquilani (£90k),
Joe Cole (£90k),
Dirk Kuyt (£70k),
Maxi (£70k),
Craig Bellamy (£70K) 
Charlie Adam (£50k)

some of them wages are mind boggling! and to think aside from Dirk, Reina and Skrtel (for a bit) all the rest were just bad signings or bench warmers