Topic: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

What and Utd, City, Chelsea, and other CL are not buying top young players?

You always did find logic difficult.

[SerbianScouser]

The worst thing is your argument is self defeating FSG were told in the January that we needed more firepower they ignored Kenny and the to compound the stupidity of that decision they offloaded Carroll when he had turned the corner as well as Kuyt, Maxi and Bellamy.

Nobody here likes to turn speculation into facts more than you. There is zero evidence to bolster the story of FSG rejecting Kenny in January. Also its not the first piece of speculation that you turned into " facts " . Just because you repeat these kind of things all the time dont mean they are true.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Oh here we go....

Knowing the character of the man helps one understand the tenor of the posts

[TitanTrigger]

Nobody here likes to turn speculation into facts more than you. There is zero evidence to bolster the story of FSG rejecting Kenny in January. Also its not the first piece of speculation that you turned into " facts " . Just because you repeat these kind of things all the time dont mean they are true.

In fact the only evidence I have heard is the opposite when Andy Heaton says they offered to buy Jelavic.

[CraigDS]

FSG talk a great game they make all the right noises but their actions simply don't live up to the rhetoric. They paint this picture of super shrewd laptop upped geniuses yet time and time again they make stupid basic mistakes. Broughton said at their unveiling to judge them by their actions not their words. So why are we people like you mate judging them by their words. Have they reduced the wages bill NO, have they made us competitive, NO, have they been super smart NO, have they had the funds to compete with anyone in football NO.

So why are you so determined to do the exact opposite of what Broughton said to do Craig.

Woah, they haven't reduced wages now? Weren't you trying to tell me the other week that they have massively reduced them? Or is that only true when it suits one of your arguments?

I am not forming my opinion based on anything they have said Al, I am very capable of looking at the figures in the accounts and forming my own decisions based upon what I see. Using actual facts, not the usually rumour and fact less drivel you post.

[CHOPPER]

You've seen mullet's half-time threads from Istanbul? At least he's consistent.

I can't say I have. I was otherwise engaged that evening.




There is a somewhat unhealthy fetish with wages on this site and its one that detracts as a opposed to enhances, the other quality area's.



Call me old fashioned - but football for me is more than just about money - yes, the whirling dervish of business that revolves around 22 blokes and pig bladder can distract, hinder and help what goes on, on the pitch. But at the end of the day, once they cross that white line, its 11 against 11 and for me, a hungry well organised and well drilled 11 will, long term, have more of a future than an over paid and under motivated 11.
Lest we forget - If it was just about money, wages and and the cost of players and the supposed ability of these marquee players - then we would of never been knocked off our fucking perch 27 years ago.

[Aggernator]

Very erudite, shame about the facts.

FSG have changed manager twice. One of those changes was pretty much forced upon them.
They stand justly open to criticism over Dalglish but let's not bullshit on about three managerial changes.

True! my mistake. I was counting the 3 different setups, that comes with only 2 changes.

[CraigDS]

True! my mistake. I was counting the 3 different setups, that comes with only 2 changes.

They also didn't pick the first set up, which was the Owl, they inherited it.

Kenny is the only one they have chosen and got rid of, and the only one they can really be held accountable for.

Unless you're one of the ones who wished Hodgson was still in charge?!

[Eeyore]

Without CL footy then buying young but promising players is the best policy. Provided your scouting system is good.

You are not going to be able to buy established CL quality players because they understandably want to be playing in the CL.

That's the thing Kev FSG say the right things if you listen to what they say it makes sense but the problem is far too often they say the right thing and then do the opposite. They have signed the likes of Downing, Adam, Toure and would of signed Dempsey if Fulham hadn't got the hump and aren't buying the best young talent they are scrabbling around in the dirt looking for rough diamonds.

If we were signing the best youngsters and giving them game time then their actions would match their words.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I can't say I have. I was otherwise engaged that evening.




There is a somewhat unhealthy fetish with wages on this site and its one that detracts as a opposed to enhances, the other quality area's.



Call me old fashioned - but football for me is more than just about money - yes, the whirling dervish of business that revolves around 22 blokes and pig bladder can distract, hinder and help what goes on, on the pitch. But at the end of the day, once they cross that white line, its 11 against 11 and for me, a hungry well organised and well drilled 11 will, long term, have more of a future than an over paid and under motivated 11.
Lest we forget - If it was just about money, wages and and the cost of players and the supposed ability of these marquee players - then we would of never been knocked off our fucking perch 27 years ago.

Me too. The joy of the interwebz however is that the comments of those who weren't are recorded for all posterity.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

True! my mistake. I was counting the 3 different setups, that comes with only 2 changes.

And only one of those of their own making in fairness.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There is a somewhat unhealthy fetish with wages on this site and its one that detracts as a opposed to enhances, the other quality area's.

Disturbing, isn't it.

Anyway am looking forward to the season.

[TitanTrigger]

Call me old fashioned - but football for me is more than just about money - yes, the whirling dervish of business that revolves around 22 blokes and pig bladder can distract, hinder and help what goes on, on the pitch. But at the end of the day, once they cross that white line, its 11 against 11 and for me, a hungry well organised and well drilled 11 will, long term, have more of a future than an over paid and under motivated 11.
Lest we forget - If it was just about money, wages and and the cost of players and the supposed ability of these marquee players - then we would of never been knocked off our fucking perch 27 years ago.

I agree with you 100% about jacking all the wages talk once they cross the white line, but I think it's useful to talk about it when we are in transfer season. Once we sign a player and give them their contract the figures are meaningless as they are done and spent but it's worth talking about when we are in the phase of the season where we are actively spending new money.

[CraigDS]

That's the thing Kev FSG say the right things if you listen to what they say it makes sense but the problem is far too often they say the right thing and then do the opposite. They have signed the likes of Downing, Adam, Toure and would of signed Dempsey if Fulham hadn't got the hump and aren't buying the best young talent they are scrabbling around in the dirt looking for rough diamonds.

If we were signing the best youngsters and giving them game time then their actions would match their words.

Just this summer we have signed Canos from Barca, a guy from Valencia and trialling a guy from Madrid. That's on top of splashing out on plenty of other youngsters in the past 2-3 years (Yesil, Teixeira, etc).

Then we've signed the likes of Coutinho, Alberto, Sturridge, Henderson, Coates.

I mean you can't honestly be trying to say we aren't attempting to sign top class youngsters are you?

[Aggernator]

They also didn't pick the first set up, which was the Owl, they inherited it.

Kenny is the only one they have chosen and got rid of, and the only one they can really be held accountable for.

Unless you're one of the ones who wished Hodgson was still in charge?!

Second post and i'm already picked for a fight.
Whats with the hostility?! I thought Hodgson was one of those racial words you couldn't say no more! wasn't there a pamphlet or something.

No accountability for Rogers?! They didn't choose him? :-)

[CraigDS]

Second post and i'm already picked for a fight.
Whats with the hostility?! I thought Hodgson was one of those racial words you couldn't say no more! wasn't there a pamphlet or something.

No accountability for Rogers?! They didn't choose him? :-)

No hostility towards you mate, wasnt meant to read that way!

I more meant accountability for him being hired and fired, as yet he hasn't been fired

[walshys_mullet]

Knowing the character of the man helps one understand the tenor of the posts

Not really, when you cant be arsed you just try to dig up some old shit to throw. I mean its not like anyones ever said stuff in the heat of the moment on here is there?

[walshys_mullet]

I can't say I have. I was otherwise engaged that evening.




There is a somewhat unhealthy fetish with wages on this site and its one that detracts as a opposed to enhances, the other quality area's.



Call me old fashioned - but football for me is more than just about money - yes, the whirling dervish of business that revolves around 22 blokes and pig bladder can distract, hinder and help what goes on, on the pitch. But at the end of the day, once they cross that white line, its 11 against 11 and for me, a hungry well organised and well drilled 11 will, long term, have more of a future than an over paid and under motivated 11.
Lest we forget - If it was just about money, wages and and the cost of players and the supposed ability of these marquee players - then we would of never been knocked off our fucking perch 27 years ago.

where you twirling your moustache whilst typing that chopper

I agree mate on the 11 vs 11. If there wernt so many billionaire owners in this sport (and in our league) i daresay we wouldnt have a problem with the way things are progressing. Guess time will tell.

[FlashingBlade]

Kilgore: I love the talk of football business in the morning. You know, one time we had a thread going , for 12 hours. When it was all over, I read it though. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin post the mattered'  The smell, you know that bullshit smell, the whole thread. Smelled like
[sniffing, pondering]
Kilgore: it mattered. Someday this threads gonna end...

[Fruity]

Its almost like the original article was written by FSG. Surely any player loaned out or sold to reduce the wage bill will need to be replaced. Not all will but surely Skrtel and Downing would. Carragher has already been replaced by Toure. All those wages have to be factored back in.

The theory also presumes that the players coming in will perform well and become first teamers (otherwise they will become bench warmers as well on a salary). Add to that the quality of player we bring in will presumably dictate the salary. If skrtel goes and someone good or better comes in then surely that salary will be comparable to skrtels or more. And if that does happen does that mean toure or agger sit on the bench? Another suplus salary. Every team needs options and the quality of those options will be most likely salary dependent.

Or is the plan to bring in new upcoming talent or promote the youngsters who are low on wages but high on risk in terms of making it in the first team.

The truth is as a club we have to live within our means and its going to be hard to compete with the huge spending of some of the other clubs above us. I understand that reality. But I think it underlines exactly where we are as a club and it puts more pressure on the manager and scouting team to deliver against the odds. I guess we will have to see where we are at the end of the transfer window but sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate and at the moment we feel more like the tories... reducing the deficit.

[Eeyore]

Just this summer we have signed Canos from Barca, a guy from Valencia and trialling a guy from Madrid. That's on top of splashing out on plenty of other youngsters in the past 2-3 years (Yesil, Teixeira, etc).

Then we've signed the likes of Coutinho, Alberto, Sturridge, Henderson, Coates.

I mean you can't honestly be trying to say we aren't attempting to sign top class youngsters are you?

Are you honestly saying that signing the top clubs cast offs is targeting the top young players, sure you will get the odd rough diamond here and there but if you start off with a 2nd or 3rd tier youngster then in the long run you are unlikely to close the gap.

[tommy LFC]

I think the plan can be summed up like this: Players like Reina and Skrtel are earning first team wages and sitting on the bench. Ship them out and use the money saved to bring in a first team player on those wages. Simple.

Sure, there's a risk that the player coming in will fail and become a bench warmer himself but show me a transfer that is not a risk. And the performances of Coutinho (replacing and on much less wages than Joe Cole) and Sturridge (replacing and more than likely on less wages than Carroll) show this plan can and should work.

Don't forget this transfer committee only started working in January and look how well the players they have signed are doing, and how much better they are than those they replaced. And the difference in wages is staggering. More bang for our buck, some might say. I'm also hugely encouraged by Aspas, Toure and Mignolet this pre season.

Look, it's always hard to say goodbye to legends like Reina and great servants like Skrtel, especially on loan. But it had to be done.

Sometime you have to prune to let the roses grow.

[Floydy]

Are you honestly saying that signing the top clubs cast offs is targeting the top young players, sure you will get the odd rough diamond here and there but if you start off with a 2nd or 3rd tier youngster then in the long run you are unlikely to close the gap.

Can see craigs point but maybe its somewhere in the middle , a combination of good scouting, the right nurturing process in terms of development and obviously improving them tactically, technically and mentally. Time will tell if we got our latest recruits right or not. The thing is young players need patience as they will make mistakes, we are in a position were we need to hit teh ground runing, and then start sprinting all the way till we run out of steam. Can and will we afford them that patience, I would like to think so but in the current fan base and general sky culture i know it wont happen.

[didi shamone]

We've seen those clubs go down the pan too, we were there once nearly.

I'd take a club assured of being in business the following season over financial risks to be honest.

not just down to our wage bill though was it?

[TitanTrigger]

Are you honestly saying that signing the top clubs cast offs is targeting the top young players, sure you will get the odd rough diamond here and there but if you start off with a 2nd or 3rd tier youngster then in the long run you are unlikely to close the gap.

Are you saying that Barca and Valencia were happy to lose Canos and Chirivella? They are among the very top prospects at those clubs.

[CraigDS]

Are you honestly saying that signing the top clubs cast offs is targeting the top young players, sure you will get the odd rough diamond here and there but if you start off with a 2nd or 3rd tier youngster then in the long run you are unlikely to close the gap.

Canos was one of Barcas star youth players. Same for the Valencia guy. Yesil was highly rated in Germany. Teixiara in Portugal.

You're talking rubbish if you think they were cast offs.

[Draex]

Are you honestly saying that signing the top clubs cast offs is targeting the top young players, sure you will get the odd rough diamond here and there but if you start off with a 2nd or 3rd tier youngster then in the long run you are unlikely to close the gap.

Sterling? Ibe? Canos? Yesil? Chirivella? Teixiara? Certainly not casts offs. Some of the best young talent around.

[Hij]

Has Skrtel gone?

Is Papadopolous coming in?

I've been apathetic regarding the owners for a long time, but if Skrtel goes and no-one else comes in that is shocking management. And on loan.

[John C]

Has Skrtel gone?

Is Papadopolous coming in?

I've been apathetic regarding the owners for a long time, but if Skrtel goes and no-one else comes in that is shocking management. And on loan.

There's exactly 31 days to go mate, don't worry too much yet.

[Floydy]

I genuinely worry that if Skrtel goes we have basically just opened the plug hole on our whole backline in one foul swoop, We lose Carra, Skirts and Pepe that could potentially hit us hard, despite the individual merits /weaknesses of each individual that is a big change and pressure on those brought in to perform.

[Draex]

I genuinely worry that if Skrtel goes we have basically just opened the plug hole on our whole backline in one foul swoop, We lose Carra, Skirts and Pepe that could potentially hit us hard, despite the individual merits /weaknesses of each individual that is a big change and pressure on those brought in to perform.

Or we remove the disfunctional aspect of our system in 1 move? The deep defensive line and our poor display from set pieces were certainly not helping last season!

[didi shamone]

The article is very scarce on maths. Are we not paying replacements?. Is the skertl deal actually done? Are we not replacing him? I understand the gist that we're financially a slightly more than mid sized club and we can't afford huge wages but if a rawk member had wrote it they'd be torn to shreads for shoddy research.
But lets not kid ourselves here. We have no revolutionary system at the club. We're looking for value signings to come straight into the first team and cheap youngsters with potential just like every other club that doesn't have an endless supply of money.

[Mighty_Red]

So far, I am happy with our transfer dealings, we got a few players in with the minimum of fuss and we are in a position where, if the worst was to happen and Suarez leaves, we will not be short to the same extent that we were last year. Of course, all the players we've signed might be failures but we don't have the money or the clout to mitigate the risk.

Losing Pepe is a blow as most of us consider him as one of us, but if he was likely to leave in the next 12 months then its only right that we get a successor in from a position of strength. The loan deal is far from ideal, and we can only hope that we get his true value next year. Some of our fear is what has happened with previous loanees but to give FSG some credit, they did well to get £15 for Carroll (even if we got rid too soon).

Skrtel, is a different case to Pepe - as an outfield player he is still very much an important member of the squad, even if he isn't currently first choice. Any decision to loan him out should not be based wholly on his wages - it should be because we can't sell and we are getting a replacement who will fit into Brendan's plans better. I sincerely hope that we have a target in mind (not just cover either).

Sometimes looking purely at the wages can give you a false picture. Players like Maxi & Joe Cole were on big wages because they came for little or no transfer fee £90K a week for 3 years is the same as £6m up front plus £50K a week. The likes of Skrtel & Kuyt are/were on big wages because they were rewarded for their performances at the club.

The prime consideration should be whether they are still doing the business and are in the managers plans. If not, then we have to do the best we can to cut them loose

[CraigDS]

The article is very scarce on maths. Are we not paying replacements?. Is the skertl deal actually done? Are we not replacing him? I understand the gist that we're financially a slightly more than mid sized club and we can't afford huge wages but if a rawk member had wrote it they'd be torn to shreads for shoddy research.

Slightly more than a mid sized club? Are you joking?

But lets not kid ourselves here. We have no revolutionary system at the club. We're looking for value signings to come straight into the first team and cheap youngsters with potential just like every other club that doesn't have an endless supply of money.

Not sure anyone is suggesting what were doing is anything new, just new to us (well, new to us given recent times).

[Twelfth Man]

We need file-sharing for football to get this crazy roadshow back on track. Gig for your money on the weekends, spend the week down the mines like the rest of us.

[soxfan]

Canos was one of Barcas star youth players. Same for the Valencia guy. Yesil was highly rated in Germany. Teixiara in Portugal.

You're talking rubbish if you think they were cast offs.

Why do you bother talking sense Craig?    First, you're never going to change his agenda. Second, my ignore tool doesn't work as well as I wish when you people keep quoting him. 

[Eeyore]

Are you saying that Barca and Valencia were happy to lose Canos and Chirivella? They are among the very top prospects at those clubs.

It is nothing new for us to sign top Academy talents we have been doing it for years it started under Benitez and it is a smart way of recruiting players. The problem is you need to commit to it and have to give those players game time. Probably the most exciting night for years was watching a young vibrant Liverpool team tear West Bromwich Albion to pieces in the League Cup sadly by the end of the season very few of those players were getting a look in and the manager was talking about signing men. Probably the saddest sight was watching Carra getting dead rubber games at the end of the season ahead of Coates. If bright young talent like Sahin and Coates can't be indulged and persevered with then what chance have the next generation of bright young teens.

If we don't change our ways then we might well end up with another crop of Pacheco's, LeTallec and Pongolle's.

[CraigDS]

It is nothing new for us to sign top Academy talents we have been doing it for years it started under Benitez and it is a smart way of recruiting players. The problem is you need to commit to it and have to give those players game time. Probably the most exciting night for years was watching a young vibrant Liverpool team tear West Bromwich Albion to pieces in the League Cup sadly by the end of the season very few of those players were getting a look in and the manager was talking about signing men. Probably the saddest sight was watching Carra getting dead rubber games at the end of the season ahead of Coates. If bright young talent like Sahin and Coates can't be indulged and persevered with then what chance have the next generation of bright young teens.

If we don't change our ways then we might well end up with another crop of Pacheco's, LeTallec and Pongolle's.

Are you actually joking?

For starters Sahin is 25 in September. If you're classing him as young then you have to class Henderson, Allen, Borini, Coutinho and Sturridge as youngsters - all of which played big parts last season.

Not to mention Sterling playing 36 games, Suso 20 games, Wisdom 19 games.

So come off it, it's fairly clear they are getting games, and will do so next season too.

We were the youngest team in the league, so not sure what ways we've got to change.

[macca888]

There's exactly 31 days to go mate, don't worry too much yet.

33 actually John. Because the 31st August and 1st September is a weekend, it finishes midnight on the 2nd September this year.

[Eeyore]

Are you actually joking?

For starters Sahin is 25 in September. If you're classing him as young then you have to class Henderson, Allen, Borini, Coutinho and Sturridge as youngsters - all of which played big parts last season.

Not to mention Sterling playing 36 games, Suso 20 games, Wisdom 19 games.

So come off it, it's fairly clear they are getting games, and will do so next season too.

We were the youngest team in the league, so not sure what ways we've got to change.

Sterling was overplayed and then overlooked, Borini barely featured and Henderson was offered in part ex for that we'll known  teen prodigy Clint Dempsey. Our first choice 11 until Suarez's ban was Reina, Johnson, Carra, Agger, Enrique, Lucas, Gerrard, Coutinho, Downing, Henderson and Suarez. Even then the manager said we had too many kids and needed more men to play alongside Carra.

I give up arguing with you mate this time next year when we are loaning out Toure and paying half his wages you will still be trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. To be successful in football you need two things above else the courage of your conviction and a stubborn streak this lot change their mind at the first sign of disquiet.