Topic: Re: John Henry's open letter to fans

[Billman]

on the alternate view of course we actually did some marvellous interim work and will be bagging walcott and strurridge for relative peanuts in the january market given that they both will only have 6 months left on their contract

unlikely but you never know

Did some good work for sure, but it's just such a shame when things go so pear-shaped at the crucial moment, and it lays bare certain problems that were evident last season and even before that, and then you find yourself questioning overall structures.

Could go either way if Walcott came. I remember listening to Arsenal podcasts last season and being taken aback to hear contributors routinely refer to him as 'Wally Walcott' in a sneering manner. That did all stop after the Spurs game admittedly.

[rlpolobear9]

Could well be right.
Im afraid we'll probably never know.

Spot on

[artanis]

There are only a few PSGs, Chelsea's and Man City's. There are a lot, a lot of clubs like us who prefer (due to ownership) that clubs are required to live within their means. UEFA will implement FFP strictly because they will be under pressure from 90% of the clubs who want responsible finances etc.
FSG have my backing as long as they are not putting debt onto the club. Them providing transfer budgets is a plus.

[Paul-LFC]

I have never thought Dempsey was a Rodgers signing I think FSG wanted him but Rodgers thought hecwa another body he could use. I think Rodgers clearly wanted Sturridge but with no one meeting FSGs valuation of Agger or Car roll then there was no money available for anyone and Carroll was off loaded to balance the books. It would certainly explain there being no money available for an out of contract player.

So why then are there reports of Rodgers trying to convince FSG to sanction the money to let him sign Dempsey? Why did Rodgers himself admit to making an enquiry about Dempsey in one of his press conferences? If FSG wanted him then surely they would have given Rodgers the money, the fact they didn't and he had to try (and ultimately fail) to convince them of Dempsey's worth to the squad suggests the exact opposite of the point you're making.

[Red Cez]

Beggars belief really.I mean it's well documented that Henry called Comolli and Kenny and said:"Listen chaps,you're gonna sign Downing,Henderson and Carroll for inflated price tags."

Who hired Comolli and gave him carte blanche?

[Resurrected]

You asked "if he was so highly-rated why was he only value at 1m"

No mention of injuries, attitude, or fitness there. Being "rated" has nothing to do with such things. All I did was question your rationale and method of thinking, had I called you a "jumped up little 12 year old" then you can give me the respect and manners speech, which now I suggest you heed.

No mention of ability either. You just assumed that's what i meant.  But as this seems to be the point you wish to attack me on, I can quite rightly correct you on the fact that being highly rated is based on many things. A poor attitude can lead to a player causing disharmony amongst the squad, trying to undermine the manager or not following instructions. These types of players tend to be more trouble that they're worth and many talented young players have fallen by the wayside as a result.

Likewise, if a player can only play for 20 minutes before injury causes him to miss games for a prolonged period, then he's not worth his wages. Owen Hargreaves is a typical example of this. Similarly with fitness; Charlie Adam lost value because he couldn't perform to a high standard for more than 60 minutes.

Finally, when some-one attacks me and questions my intellect without cause, then i think i have a right to respond in whichever way i see fit. The fact that i've managed football teams at quite a high standard, and been very successful at it, suggests to me that i know what i'm talking about and have some degree of 'football intellect'.

Good luck and conversation finished.

[Resurrected]

He's only 18 isn't he? I have to disagree with that, its not always the price tag that makes a player, the kid is highly rated in Germany at that age level, his clubs fans were furious he left, I guess it's the same if another club took Stirling now, we wouldn't be happy about it, theres loads of bargains out there, just don't look in England for them..

What exactly do you disagree with?

[cptrios]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-edwards/17/89b/478

Head of Analytics
Liverpool Football Club
Privately Held; 201-500 employees; Sports industry
November 2011 – Present (11 months)

Head of Performance Analysis
Tottenham Hotspur FC
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Sports industry
November 2009 – October 2011 (2 years)

Head of Performance Analysis
Portsmouth FC
December 2003 – October 2009 (5 years 11 months)

Odd that Spurs have at least twice as many employees as we do.

[reds88]

Of course it's possible to get a good young player on the cheap.  Would be quite a coup should when that happens.

Top 10 world’s most expensive young footballers: 
1. Neymar  (Brazil, 19 years old, Santos) €30-55 million
2. Mario Götze  (Germany, 19, Borussia Dortmund) €30-45 million
3. Mario Balotelli  (Italy, 21, Manchester City) €30-40 million
4. Eden Hazard  (Belgium, 21, Lille) €27-35 million
5. Jack Wilshere  (England, 20, Arsenal) €22-30 million
6. Thiago Alcantara  (Spain, 20, FC Barcelona) €20-30 million
7. Yann M’Vila  (France, 21, Rennes) €20-25 million
8. Phil Jones  (England, 20, Manchester United) €18-25 million
9. David de Gea  (Spain, 21, Manchester United) €16-20 million
10. Alan Dzagoev  (Russia, 21, CSKA Moscow) €16-20 million

http://rt.com/sport/football/dzagoev-neymar-gotze-balotelli-football-cska-247/

[harleydanger]

As many have pointed out above, it will not work unless you do it from a position of strength. We are not going to be the next arsenal with top youngsters constantly coming in. We're far more likely to go the way of Aston villa who had a squad full of young talent and lost them to bigger, more successful teams.

By refusing to fill gaping holes in the squad we're cementing our place in mid table.

And what if the unspeakable happens and we get sacked into a scrap at the bottom?  I bet many teams thought it was impossible before it happened to them. We can't ignore the present in the hope that a bunch of bargain priced youngsters will turn into world beaters.

And the world's top youngsters,  the hummels, the neymars, the munains will not come cheap. Unless we are successful we'll never even be in contention for that sort of player.

Spending within our means I can get behind,  so long as those funds are released to a manager... Tying his hands on the players he can target will get us nowhere.

IF we get a young player at a bargain price its because someone else decided they weren't good enough. Top quality young players are expensive because many others clubs hit upon our master plan years ago.

I fear for our future I really do. Fsg haven't got a clue.

RvP cost 2.5m.

The whole point of this strategy is so WE CAN spend on quality rather than plugging gaps with what ever is available that window.

Ferguson had a crop of young players come through that allowed him to go out and spend all his money on absolute quality rather than splitting it all out over 4 positions. That's what launched the mancs era of dominance.

That's where we're trying to manoeuvre ourselves to, a platform to launch from. We've been throwing money at the problem hand over fist for 20 years saying this season la, this season and it hasn't worked. 3 and a half managers have tried that way, one came close in 20 years. I'm ecstatic we're trying it a different way, it means we're not insane.

[TheCharlatan]

No mention of ability either. You just assumed that's what i meant.  But as this seems to be the point you wish to attack me on, I can quite rightly correct you on the fact that being highly rated is based on many things. A poor attitude can lead to a player causing disharmony amongst the squad, trying to undermine the manager or not following instructions. These types of players tend to be more trouble that they're worth and many talented young players have fallen by the wayside as a result.

Likewise, if a player can only play for 20 minutes before injury causes him to miss games for a prolonged period, then he's not worth his wages. Owen Hargreaves is a typical example of this. Similarly with fitness; Charlie Adam lost value because he couldn't perform to a high standard for more than 60 minutes.

Finally, when some-one attacks me and questions my intellect without cause, then i think i have a right to respond in whichever way i see fit. The fact that i've managed football teams at quite a high standard, and been very successful at it, suggests to me that i know what i'm talking about and have some degree of 'football intellect'.

Good luck and conversation finished.

The lack of any substance or factual accuracy in what you have just said deems you unworthy and incapable of redeeming any semblance of football intellect you think you possess.

I said don't even bother responding

As far as I'm concerned this conversation was over the moment you looked at what you typed and decided "hey this would be a really insightful thing to say"

I never see the point in arguing. I'm sorry that you felt offended. We're all Liverpool supporters whether we agree on things or not. I may very well have bought you a pint after a game or vice-versa.

[Resurrected]

RvP cost 2.5m.

The whole point of this strategy is so WE CAN spend on quality rather than plugging gaps with what ever is available that window.

Ferguson had a crop of young players come through that allowed him to go out and spend all his money on absolute quality rather than splitting it all out over 4 positions. That's what launched the mancs era of dominance.

That's where we're trying to manoeuvre ourselves to, a platform to launch from. We've been throwing money at the problem hand over fist for 20 years saying this season la, this season and it hasn't worked. 3 and a half managers have tried that way, one came close in 20 years. I'm ecstatic we're trying it a different way, it means we're not insane.

The examples you've quoted are the exceptions rather than the rule. To base the future of the club on such a policy is naivity in the extreme.

[TheCharlatan]

Of course it's possible to get a good young player on the cheap.  Would be quite a coup should when that happens.

http://rt.com/sport/football/dzagoev-neymar-gotze-balotelli-football-cska-247/

Strange there's no Lucas on that list 

[shelovesyou]

Odd that Spurs have at least twice as many employees as we do.

Harry Redknapp

[coolbyrne]

What exactly do you disagree with?

Not speaking for Aaron, but I disagree with the inference that you can judge a player based on his price tag. You implied that paying a million quid might indicate the real value of his talent, whilst saying "more often than not, you get what you pay for", when we don't have to look too far into our own club to know that comment is easily refuted. You don't always get what you pay for, both in a negative way (paid too much for the true value of the player) AND in a positive way (paid a pittance for a diamond in the rough).

[harleydanger]

Of course it's possible to get a good young player on the cheap.  Would be quite a coup should when that happens.

http://rt.com/sport/football/dzagoev-neymar-gotze-balotelli-football-cska-247/

Ribery - 2mil Euro at 22

RvP 2.5mil at 21

Ozil - 3mil at 19

etc

The list is as long as the day.

[harleydanger]

The examples you've quoted are the exceptions rather than the rule. To base the future of the club on such a policy is naivity in the extreme.

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

RvP cost 2.5m.

The whole point of this strategy is so WE CAN spend on quality rather than plugging gaps with what ever is available that window.

Ferguson had a crop of young players come through that allowed him to go out and spend all his money on absolute quality rather than splitting it all out over 4 positions. That's what launched the mancs era of dominance.

That's where we're trying to manoeuvre ourselves to, a platform to launch from. We've been throwing money at the problem hand over fist for 20 years saying this season la, this season and it hasn't worked. 3 and a half managers have tried that way, one came close in 20 years. I'm ecstatic we're trying it a different way, it means we're not insane.

As I've said in one of my previous posts that was not the case with United.

[juan1001]

I'm ecstatic we're trying it a different way, it means we're not insane.

I hope you still feel the same way in May.

[Yiannis]

Who hired Comolli and gave him carte blanche?

They trusted him cause he knows a hell lot more when it comes to football and buying players than they do.What did you expect them to do?They hired a director of football that presumably someone suggested to them and also had worked in England before.

[shelovesyou]

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity

It shouldnt and I dont know why but that made me laugh.

[harleydanger]

As I've said in one of my previous posts that was not the case with United.

Disagree.

91 - around 1m net spend

92 - around 2 mil net spend

93 - Title, PL money, launchpad

[Resurrected]

Not speaking for Aaron, but I disagree with the inference that you can judge a player based on his price tag. You implied that paying a million quid might indicate the real value of his talent, whilst saying "more often than not, you get what you pay for", when we don't have to look too far into our own club to know that comment is easily refuted. You don't always get what you pay for, both in a negative way (paid too much for the true value of the player) AND in a positive way (paid a pittance for a diamond in the rough).

No idea who Aaron is. But anyway, i'll do my best to explain the question.

I've seen one clip of Yesil on youtube and he looked pretty handy. For a 19 year old Germany U19 international, he looks more than a million quids worth. So i find myself asking why he was so cheap. Does he have an attitude problem? Is he injury prone? Does he have smelly feet? Does he only have 1 month left on his contract? I don't know the answer to these questions because i've only seen a 30 second clip on him. So i've asked the question in the hope that some-one who knows more about the german game than me can offer an answer. And bearing in mind that more often than not, you only get what you pay for, and he seems pretty good, why are we getting him so cheap?

It was a pretty simple question really, one that doesn't need to be disected and analysed because there was no hidden message, no implication as to his abilities, just a simple question that i think i no longer care what the answer is.

[nicholasanthony]

So why then are there reports of Rodgers trying to convince FSG to sanction the money to let him sign Dempsey? Why did Rodgers himself admit to making an enquiry about Dempsey in one of his press conferences? If FSG wanted him then surely they would have given Rodgers the money, the fact they didn't and he had to try (and ultimately fail) to convince them of Dempsey's worth to the squad suggests the exact opposite of the point you're making.

Don't bother, you're arguing with a crazy person.

[oojason]

A shame Mr Henry didn't send a letter to the manager outlining his valued opinion on just how much each player Mr Rodgers wanted to buy in the transfer window - and why the new manager, who is being 'fully backed', wouldn't be able to buy any of them.

Still, it's someone else's fault - and will be the next time too... and the next... and the next...

[harleydanger]

No idea who Aaron is. But anyway, i'll do my best to explain the question.

I've seen one clip of Yesil on youtube and he looked pretty handy. For a 19 year old Germany U19 international, he looks more than a million quids worth. So i find myself asking why he was so cheap. Does he have an attitude problem? Is he injury prone? Does he have smelly feet? Does he only have 1 month left on his contract? I don't know the answer to these questions because i've only seen a 30 second clip on him. So i've asked the question in the hope that some-one who knows more about the german game than me can offer an answer. And bearing in mind that more often than not, you only get what you pay for, and he seems pretty good, why are we getting him so cheap?

It was a pretty simple question really, one that doesn't need to be disected and analysed because there was no hidden message, no implication as to his abilities, just a simple question that i think i no longer care what the answer is.

He couldn't get the step up where he was at, and he felt like he was stagnating, so he asked our old pal Sam Hypiia for a loan or transfer and our old mate gave us a call not wanting to sell him to a Bundesliga club. It's a great fit for him because he has NO compitition here, Sami helps us out, everyone is happy.

That's pretty much what it was according to their forums.

[Resurrected]

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity

Very true. And we repeatedly try to do everything on the cheap.

You may refer to last years dealings but that was bad judgement. That again was the exception and not the rule.

[Resurrected]

He couldn't get the step up where he was at, and he felt like he was stagnating, so he asked our old pal Sam Hypiia for a loan or transfer and our old mate gave us a call not wanting to sell him to a Bundesliga club. It's a great fit for him because he has NO compitition here, Sami helps us out, everyone is happy.

That's pretty much what it was according to their forums.

Thanks. That pretty much explains everything.

Any idea how far away he is from the first team?

[reds88]

Ferguson having a crop of very good youngsters coming through at the same time is a rare occurrence. 

Lots more clubs have been developing academies and looking for quality kids to recruit. 

Other factors that allowed the Mancs in spending big money on players is their marketing and management team being able to reap huge profits on the commercial side, a bigger stadium and qualifying for the CL regularly.

It's fine to rely on a strategy to recruit good young players as it's financially more prudent.  It takes time for this strategy to bear fruit and there's no guarantee of success. 

It's one thing to be able to identify best young players, the question is whether the club is successful enough to lure them here.  Given that the best would always have a choice.  Would they choose a mid table Liverpool? 

[coolbyrne]

No idea who Aaron is. But anyway, i'll do my best to explain the question.

I've seen one clip of Yesil on youtube and he looked pretty handy. For a 19 year old Germany U19 international, he looks more than a million quids worth. So i find myself asking why he was so cheap. Does he have an attitude problem? Is he injury prone? Does he have smelly feet? Does he only have 1 month left on his contract? I don't know the answer to these questions because i've only seen a 30 second clip on him. So i've asked the question in the hope that some-one who knows more about the german game than me can offer an answer. And bearing in mind that more often than not, you only get what you pay for, and he seems pretty good, why are we getting him so cheap?

It was a pretty simple question really, one that doesn't need to be disected and analysed because there was no hidden message, no implication as to his abilities, just a simple question that i think i no longer care what the answer is.

Aaron was the poster you directly asked "which part do you disagree with". I didn't want to answer the question as if I were answering for him.

Why ask the question? Any answer you might get will only be speculative, unless someone comes forward from the club and lists reasons why we got him so cheap. It was an odd question, is all.

[harleydanger]

Very true. And we repeatedly try to do everything on the cheap.

You may refer to last years dealings but that was bad judgement. That again was the exception and not the rule.

I wouldn't call our transfer dealings over the last 20 years "on the cheap" in fact, apart from about 3-4 years we've consistently been one of the top 3 spenders in the league.

[TheCharlatan]

It was an odd question, is all.

[rafathegaffa83]

There are a couple of points which Tony doesn't examine. Why did the pursuit of Dempsey, which had been ongoing for 3 months keep going on till 8pm on Friday evening? If it was all about Henry's "vision" for the club did they not once sit down and discuss this earlier in the summer? Doesn't wash with me that it's all down to that. Did he just decide to keep it quiet for 3 months? If Ayre was leading the negotiations why did it take till so late on deadline day to realise Fulham wouldn't accept anything less than £4m and considering we did our last bit of major business the week before with Sahin why did it take till so late for us to table a bid of £4m? Was it simply a case of waiting to convince Carroll to take the West Ham offer? If we wanted Sturridge on loan could we not have sounded out the possibility earlier and worked out, even 24 hours earlier, that Sturridge only wanted a permanent move and not a loan? Why on earth did we not have ANY contingency plans in place? Why is neither Rodgers or Ayre's role in it mentioned at all? Strange article that.

Some really good points there and to add that, if Dempsey was so adamant about coming here, why didn't he hand in a transfer request? I wouldn't be surprised if whoever was doing the negotiating (I'd assume it would be Ayre) has tried to play it too clever and Dempsey like Owen before him when Newcastle opted to jump, rather than force through the move he actually wanted.

Those two articles are too similar to not come from someone spreading some propaganda

That's the way I see it too. Ian Ayre comes off sparkling in all of these pieces.

I have never thought Dempsey was a Rodgers signing I think FSG wanted him but Rodgers thought hecwa another body he could use. I think Rodgers clearly wanted Sturridge but with no one meeting FSGs valuation of Agger or Car roll then there was no money available for anyone and Carroll was off loaded to balance the books. It would certainly explain there being no money available for an out of contract player.

The Times stated that Rodgers only wanted Sturridge on loan, not on a permanent deal. The player only wanted to leave on a permanent deal.

[Resurrected]

Aaron was the poster you directly asked "which part do you disagree with". I didn't want to answer the question as if I were answering for him.

Why ask the question? Any answer you might get will only be speculative, unless someone comes forward from the club and lists reasons why we got him so cheap. It was an odd question, is all.

So it's odd to ask why we under-paid for a player? Is it also odd that most people on here have been asking for 18 months why we over-paid for Andy Carroll?

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Disagree.

91 - around 1m net spend

92 - around 2 mil net spend

93 - Title, PL money, launchpad

Only Ryan Giggs was part of the 1993 United winning team, the "Fergie's Fledglings" didn't make their breakthrough until the 1994-95 winning season.

[Red Cez]

They trusted him cause he knows a hell lot more when it comes to football and buying players than they do.What did you expect them to do?They hired a director of football that presumably someone suggested to them and also had worked in England before.

If you want to lay the blame solely at Comolli's door while absolving FSG of all responsibility you are free to do so, I see it differently.

FSG hired Comolli, he was their choice and nobody forced them to hire him.

FSG handed Comolli tens of millions, again nobody forced them to do that, it was their choice.

He was their man, his fuck-ups were their fuck-ups.

[Billman]

He couldn't get the step up where he was at, and he felt like he was stagnating, so he asked our old pal Sam Hypiia for a loan or transfer and our old mate gave us a call not wanting to sell him to a Bundesliga club. It's a great fit for him because he has NO compitition here, Sami helps us out, everyone is happy.

That's pretty much what it was according to their forums.

Seems that way, found this on a German news site and got this dodgy translation:

"In Internet forums, they were showered with massive criticism of the Leverkusen manager. The tenor: This would in Yesil (18) the most talent, yes sold off the star striker of the future simply.

It Bayer 04  on closer sight it an understandable business. Because you could transfer a 18-year-old for more than one million euros. A player who auftrumpfte Although the youth teams of Bayer 04 and DFB, but not in the summer made ​​it into the first team and not even at Bayers U 23 particularly noticeable in the fourth division. Yesil is not (yet) Mario Götze, not Marc-André ter Stegen, no Andre Schurrle. The leap from acclaimed young star to celebrated Bundesliga star he is still guilty. Leverkusen's sporting leadership dares him this moment in house apparently not.

So it was decided, therefore, to shift Yesils career to Liverpool. He suggests in there, you have a buy-back. He suggests not, you have 31 August 2012 made ​​a good deal."

Sounds like he was taking his time to make a real impact at senior level, so they felt that Liverpool's offer was good value under those circumstances.

On another note, some journalists seem to be claiming that Rodgers was offered Sturridge but said no, while others say Liverpool wanted him on loan with a view to a permanent deal, but the player himself had zero interest in any loan deal and wanted a permanent transfer or nothing. So was it Rodgers or Sturridge that turned their nose up at what was on the table? Confusing.

[BFM]

If you want to lay the blame solely at Comolli's door while absolving FSG of all responsibility you are free to do so, I see it differently.

FSG hired Comolli, he was their choice and nobody forced them to hire him.

FSG handed Comolli tens of millions, again nobody forced them to do that, it was their choice.

He was their man, his fuck-ups were their fuck-ups.

That's not what he's saying. Hindsight is 20-20. Comolli (and others) fucked up, and they're gone. FSG learned their lesson. Hopefully the team will be stronger in January. Brendan has a tough job for the next 4 months

[coolbyrne]

So it's odd to ask why we under-paid for a player? Is it also odd that most people on here have been asking for 18 months why we over-paid for Andy Carroll?

Two different situations. Based on actual performances that we've seen and we can reference, it's not surprising when people ask why we paid so much for Andy Carroll. No, asking why we broke the transfer record for a British player isn't odd. We're so suspicious now that we're asking questions when we DON'T get taken for a ride.

[Alan_X]

It's all spin to try and keep the natives from getting too wrestles. It's all about $$$, nothing to do with football.

It's your opinion. The other thread was locked because people were spouting opinion as fact. Do us a favour and expand on what justification you have for that opinion.