Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[Dench57]

Stu Docking?

Neil's lad?

No idea where I've got that from!

[red_Mark1980]

No idea where I've got that from!

Happens doesn't it? Didn't Emilia call Mr. Phil "Paul" or something?

[Dench57]

My only criticism is the length, I feel like 16 minutes is on the short side personally

aye, that was my only disappointment

[Fitzy.]

Yeah, it’s always been like that when it’s followed a big win and is what you’d expect when you think about it. My only criticism is the length, I feel like 16 minutes is on the short side personally - it’s alright if you have the video subscription (which I do) but if I didn’t and I’d waited an hour or so to listen to it and found out it was 16 minutes long I’d be a bit fucked off personally. Im sure they never seemed to be much less than half an hour in the past although I may be misremembering that? Same with the Preview Show for the Wolves game which is 13 minutes when I think you could easily justify double that. It’s not a value for money moan at all as you get plenty for the price of the subscription, but just that I think certain shows can be a bit on the short side and it can be a bit of a let down when you see it pop up as a notification so set it aside to watch later then sit down to actually watch it and it’s like 13 minutes.

I can see why a short show might feel a bit of a let down. However, in some ways there's not a lot to say other than just basking in the glory. Wednesday's Pink was essentially just a series of belly laughs and cheering. That can only last for so long, I guess.

[gods_left_peg]

What happened to the agony episode that was being recorded a couple of weeks ago, was the advice to wild to put out 😂

[Gods_Left_Boot]

For a while I was annoyed by Sean insisting on pronouncing "Yota" but now I've almost come to appreciate his extreme and ultimately pointless stubbornness in keeping his point. 

[Crosby Nick]

For a while I was annoyed by Sean insisting on pronouncing "Yota" but now I've almost come to appreciate his extreme and ultimately pointless stubbornness in keeping his point. 

You ok with A Ridgy?

[Dougle]

Imperator on TAW Live! Nice one!

I reckon Adam could do a "what football means to me" podcast with him. Very interesting story I think.

[kavah]

Mo Stewart on the telly in Singapore - getting interviewed on the Premier League show 

[ScottishKopite]

Mo Stewart on the telly in Singapore - getting interviewed on the Premier League show 

Top lad is Mo

[The Last Known Survivor]

For a while I was annoyed by Sean insisting on pronouncing "Yota" but now I've almost come to appreciate his extreme and ultimately pointless stubbornness in keeping his point.

Pisses me off nó end, asked a Portuguese lad at work and he pronounces it with a j sound.

[Fitzy.]

Adam Smith will be irritated at the line-up.

The fact we have 25 players in the CL squad means it’s pretty impossible to pick a team of kids. We currently have around 18 outfield players available from the 25 if you eliminate injuries and goalkeepers. So that’s 10 from 18.

The idea of going ‘weak’ is actually a total fallacy.

[zadian007]

Adam Smith will be irritated at the line-up.

The fact we have 25 players in the CL squad means it’s pretty impossible to pick a team of kids. We currently have around 18 outfield players available from the 25 if you eliminate injuries and goalkeepers. So that’s 10 from 18.

The idea of going ‘weak’ is actually a total fallacy.

FWIW, I was pleased with 90% of the line-up but nobody will ever be able to persuade me that the goalkeeper, Sadio or Mo should even have flown to Italy, let alone played any minutes in a match that we could have lost 200-0 and it wouldn’t have altered a single thing. I’m delighted we won, glad Divock scored & hope we don’t see too much evidence of fatigue in players come the end of December / start of January.

As always, though, other opinions are available & I certainly don’t think mine is the “right” one, it’s just the one I have and share when I’m asked for it.

[lamonti]

Pisses me off nó end, asked a Portuguese lad at work and he pronounces it with a j sound.

Jota is literally the Portuguese pronunciation of the letter J, it's a nickname, not a family name.

It's like if Gerard had had "Stevie Gee" on the back of his shirt.

[red_Mark1980]

Jota is literally the Portuguese pronunciation of the letter J, it's a nickname, not a family name.

It's like if Gerard had had "Stevie Gee" on the back of his shirt.

That's mad

[OzBomber]

For a while I was annoyed by Sean insisting on pronouncing "Yota" but now I've almost come to appreciate his extreme and ultimately pointless stubbornness in keeping his point. 

I'm a fan of Seen's contributions in the review, however I do think it's disrespectful of Seen to intentionally mispronounce player's names.

[Fitzy.]

FWIW, I was pleased with 90% of the line-up but nobody will ever be able to persuade me that the goalkeeper, Sadio or Mo should even have flown to Italy, let alone played any minutes in a match that we could have lost 200-0 and it wouldn’t have altered a single thing. I’m delighted we won, glad Divock scored & hope we don’t see too much evidence of fatigue in players come the end of December / start of January.

As always, though, other opinions are available & I certainly don’t think mine is the “right” one, it’s just the one I have and share when I’m asked for it.

While a heavy loss wouldn't be nice, I appreciate that it would not hurt the long-term prospects of genuine young talent. However, the frame of reference of actual success in the San Siro not only provides an incredible boost to the younger fringe players but it also provides Klopp with essential data that they can thrive around top players; complementing them and being strong teammates to the first team regulars.

Without putting Morton and Williams alongside the likes of Sadio and Salah, you're not achieving much from a squad development point of view. Rather than these young lads simply acting as sterile placeholders for a 'dead rubber', last night's game was far more valuable than that; giving confidence to young players while also showing Salah and Sadio that some of these footballers are legitimate and credible squad members.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't counter-arguments that carry weight, I'm just pointing out that a hard and fast position on this issue is possibly ignoring some of the wider points that Klopp, himself, has to take into account on such occasions.

[zadian007]

While a heavy loss wouldn't be nice, I appreciate that it would not hurt the long-term prospects of genuine young talent. However, the frame of reference of actual success in the San Siro not only provides an incredible boost to the younger fringe players but it also provides Klopp with essential data that they can thrive around top players; complementing them and being strong teammates to the first team regulars.

Without putting Morton and Williams alongside the likes of Sadio and Salah, you're not achieving much from a squad development point of view. Rather than these young lads simply acting as sterile placeholders for a 'dead rubber', last night's game was far more valuable than that; giving confidence to young players while also showing Salah and Sadio that some of these footballers are legitimate and credible squad members.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't counter-arguments that carry weight, I'm just pointing out that a hard and fast position on this issue is possibly ignoring some of the wider points that Klopp, himself, has to take into account on such occasions.

As I say, other view are available and I do respect yours, I just don't share it as a good enough reason to start those three players.

There is an argument, for example, that he'd learn more about Tsimikas and Konaté by starting Kelleher and asking them to take on the leadership roles. Similarly how would Origi and Minamino have handled being played alongside youth players?

Mainly, though, I just think that the manager loses a bit of credibility when he, correctly, says that the number games played in December is crazy, but then plays two lads that he knows are going off to take part in an international tournament in January in a game that is literally irrelevant to us.

[Alan_X]

Mainly, though, I just think that the manager loses a bit of credibility when he, correctly, says that the number games played in December is crazy, but then plays two lads that he knows are going off to take part in an international tournament in January in a game that is literally irrelevant to us.

That's a real Talk Sport statement. Klopp's credibility is founded on his consistent reliance on what the sports scientists tell him about a player's condition. There's a balance between resting a player and keeping them 'in the groove'. Klopp has rightly said that there's too much football but this was an important game for him and for the players. Mane and Salah have been subbed in most of the Champions League group games so they've had a run out, scored goals and not played into the red zone.

Also. Why the fuck would we worry about saving Mane and Salah's legs just because there's an international tournament? Surely we should be getting the most out of them while they're playing for Liverpool?

[zadian007]

That's a real Talk Sport statement. Klopp's credibility is founded on his consistent reliance on what the sports scientists tell him about a player's condition. There's a balance between resting a player and keeping them 'in the groove'. Klopp has rightly said that there's too much football but this was an important game for him and for the players. Mane and Salah have been subbed in most of the Champions League group games so they've had a run out, scored goals and not played into the red zone.

Also. Why the fuck would we worry about saving Mane and Salah's legs just because there's an international tournament? Surely we should be getting the most out of them while they're playing for Liverpool?

It wasn't an important game. We'd already qualified as group winners. It literally couldn't have been less important.

We care because they'll be coming back to us after the AFCON. I'm not saying we should be protecting them for their respective nations, I'm saying that we know that they're going to end up playing games at AFCON and we don't want their legs to be overloaded with minutes, so playing them in a dead rubber of a game adds unnecessary minutes to their legs when December is already a crazy month.

[Fitzy.]

He did rest 8 players from the weekend. That’s entirely consistent with his views about fixture congestion. The two outfield players he used again are pretty much the most injury resistant footballers around - both playing an hour or so.

[zadian007]

He did rest 8 players from the weekend. That’s entirely consistent with his views about fixture congestion. The two outfield players he used again are pretty much the most injury resistant footballers around - both playing an hour or so.

They SEEM to be injury resistant, but they’re certainly not fatigue resistant. Personally thought Mané looked mentally shattered against Wolves.

It’s just a completely unnecessary risk to play them in a pointless game. We got away with no injuries, but the fatigue might well come later in the season. That’s my main point of view on the matter.

[kavah]

I can see both sides, especially remembering Jota's injury last season in Denmark, but I think Kloppl  explained his thinking, the compromise between the integrity of the competition, his duty to win games and his duty of care to the players. Sometimes he'll get it wrong or get unlucky. I'm kind of glad we won't have Simeone harping on about us throwing the game that would gain headlines and dickhead-reporters asking questions about it forever.

Don't forget there were a lot (a minority I'd say - but plenty) of shouts to prioritize the League Cup over the World Club Cup 2 years ago and send the kids to Qatar. I think Klopp knows his players and knew how pissed off the Brazilians and Mo and Mané would have been and I think it's also the same situation with those two here, they'll be nowhere near the League cup and they'll get a rest/change of scenery in Cameroon.

It's a tough one, but it's good to have different opinions on TAW, that's why we all listen.
It's also good to have the contributors come on here - so thanks for that 007   

[Fitzy.]

They SEEM to be injury resistant, but they’re certainly not fatigue resistant. Personally thought Mané looked mentally shattered against Wolves.

It’s just a completely unnecessary risk to play them in a pointless game. We got away with no injuries, but the fatigue might well come later in the season. That’s my main point of view on the matter.

A completely unnecessary risk isn't really correct. Obviously it's not risk free but there are a whole host of reasons as to why you field strong players in such a match - some of which Klopp and his team will regard as entirely necessary given the developmental approach to squad building this set-up has engaged in for six years.

As Neil said on The Review, where's the value in playing Morton in the San Siro without anyone to pass forward to? Morton et. al. can only really step up in important games if they have had the muscle memory of a proper first team experience rather than just a League Cup tie.

On the Mane fatigue point, given the analytics involved in team selection, there will likely be data indicating he's perfectly 'good' for an hour and even that he tends to thrive in the annual December fixture pile-up.

It's not that it's wrong to question line ups in such a tie, I'm just a little bit at odds in viewing it with such absolute certainty. We're privy to about 10% of the information that goes into these things.

[lamonti]

There's a significant minority of people who are so scarred by last season's injuries that they would rather us hand-out 3-0 walkovers in the last two CL games and the League Cup.

[red_Mark1980]

There's a significant minority of people who are so scarred by last season's injuries that they would rather us hand-out 3-0 walkovers in the last two CL games and the League Cup.

Why are they the only options? It was idiotic to play Mane and Salah in that game. It's not like we have zero other front three options.

[Alan_X]

It wasn't an important game. We'd already qualified as group winners. It literally couldn't have been less important.

We care because they'll be coming back to us after the AFCON. I'm not saying we should be protecting them for their respective nations, I'm saying that we know that they're going to end up playing games at AFCON and we don't want their legs to be overloaded with minutes, so playing them in a dead rubber of a game adds unnecessary minutes to their legs when December is already a crazy month.

It wasn't important to you. That doesn't mean it wasn't important to Klopp and the team. This is the team that has the mentality to come second with 97 points and win the league with 96. A team that goes on incredible winning and unbeaten runs and is scoring 3-4 goals a game. I'd guess the training games between the starting and second string teams are more intense than the game we saw at the San Siro.

No offence mate but I think the club know what they're doing. We have the best sports scientists and sports psychologists working for the club. Klopp is a great believer in momentum and rhythm so playing a team with no first choice players was never going to happen on a Champions League game at the San Siro. A league Cup game when the main squad is playing in the Club World Cup maybe, or playing Shrewsbury in the winterbreak, or even playing Everton in the Cup. We made eight changes to the starting eleven and five subs. Our next game is at home with three clear days rest after the MIlan game.

I mean, we had a nineteen-year-old playing in midfield so Thiago could put his feet up and you're worried about Mo and Sadio getting 60 minutes. Mountain out of a molehill.

[redgriffin73]

Interesting how strong all the major teams were this week who had nothing to play for as well - some a lot more than ours.

[FlashGordon]

Couldn't rest everyone and the club will have the best available data as to who is in the 'red zone' and needs a rest. That's all there is to it really.

[Fitzy.]

Why are they the only options? It was idiotic to play Mane and Salah in that game. It's not like we have zero other front three options.

Framing it in these terms is just a bit over the top.

It's not that you have to agree with Klopp, but you're basically calling him an idiot which isn't really fair...at all.

[lamonti]

Why are they the only options? It was idiotic to play Mane and Salah in that game. It's not like we have zero other front three options.

It wasn't idiotic. You're saying Klopp is an idiot.

Neil Atkinson made the very good point that playing these two extremely fit players gave our team a load of attacking shape and made it a lot easier for all the other changes around the pitch to work out.

[The G in Gerrard]

It's not a bad thing getting players to play at the San Siro regardless of how "important" the game is. I'm sure Mo if asked would have wanted to play it. We made a number of changes from Saturday's game (players that have had more injuries than others). It was absolutely the right thing to do.

Some are just criticizing just for the sake of it.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I just think it's simplistic to say they shouldn't have played. If I'm honest, I would have preferred neither to play, but my preference was based on a very narrow and immediate objective which ignored all the wider considerations that clearly went into this decision.

One of the great things about this club at the moment is that you know they'll make good decisions that will include short medium and long term considerations. It's almost the height of arrogance for people like us to criticise when the criticism is often based, like mine above, on a very narrow view of the circumstances.

I think shoving in future fatigue as a way of keeping the "told you so" option alive is a bit disingenuous as there is no way any future fatigue could be traced back to an hour of football.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I just think it's simplistic to say they shouldn't have played. If I'm honest, I would have preferred neither to play, but my preference was based on a very narrow and immediate objective which ignored all the wider considerations that clearly went into this decision.

One of the great things about this club at the moment is that you know they'll make good decisions that will include short medium and long term considerations. It's almost the height of arrogance for people like us to criticise when the criticism is often based, like mine above, on a very narrow view of the circumstances.

I think shoving in future fatigue as a way of keeping the "told you so" option alive is a bit disingenuous as there is no way any future fatigue could be traced back to an hour of football.

To use a Neil Atkinsonism, broadly speaking I agree with you, but you cant deny the more a player plays the more fatigued they will be

Not aimed at you but I wonder how much an injury (heaven forbid) would skew the narrative

for those adament neither should have played, who would you have put there instead?

[Alan_X]

To use a Neil Atkinsonism, broadly speaking I agree with you, but you cant deny the more a player plays the more fatigued they will be...

I'm not sure that's the case. It's certainly far too simplistic. It's clearly true that immediately after a ninety minute match a player will be fatigued. They'll probably still be in recovery the day after but there is a whole field of study of fatigue in top-level football players. Skimming through a few studies I thought this was an interesting conclusion:

In our opinion, the real-world necessity to monitor PMF systematically in professional soccer should be debated for several reasons. For example, doubts subsist regarding the extent to which players are actually exposed to periods of match congestion [5]. A review of the literature on match congestion also showed that competitive performance is generally unaffected in professional players competing in a minimum of 75 min play across successive matches played over a short time period (e.g. two matches in a single week), potentially questioning the real-world need for monitoring [6]. Similarly, to our knowledge there is no evidence that incomplete physical, physiological and/or psychological recovery status actually causes players to underperform in ensuing match-play.

There's a world of difference between what seems obvious to football supporters watching players in two 90-minute competitive games a week and the type of scientific monitoring and individual planning that the club will be doing for each player on match days and also during recovery and the hours of training they'll be doing.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I'm not sure that's the case. It's certainly far too simplistic. It's clearly true that immediately after a ninety minute match a player will be fatigued. They'll probably still be in recovery the day after but there is a whole field of study of fatigue in top-level football players. Skimming through a few studies I thought this was an interesting conclusion:

In our opinion, the real-world necessity to monitor PMF systematically in professional soccer should be debated for several reasons. For example, doubts subsist regarding the extent to which players are actually exposed to periods of match congestion [5]. A review of the literature on match congestion also showed that competitive performance is generally unaffected in professional players competing in a minimum of 75 min play across successive matches played over a short time period (e.g. two matches in a single week), potentially questioning the real-world need for monitoring [6]. Similarly, to our knowledge there is no evidence that incomplete physical, physiological and/or psychological recovery status actually causes players to underperform in ensuing match-play.

There's a world of difference between what seems obvious to football supporters watching players in two 90-minute competitive games a week and the type of scientific monitoring and individual planning that the club will be doing for each player on match days and also during recovery and the hours of training they'll be doing.

thanks for that

so what do the studies say does cause player fatigue if its not playing games in a congested period such as, the one we are currently in?

Atkinson also pointed out that Mo had never started a game for us on the gameweek we played Everton.

its obvious to the layman that an easy solution would be to move that game rest to the following week in a dead rubber. Why is the layman wrong, or why do you think the same manager hasnt given him that game off?

[Alan_X]

thanks for that

so what do the studies say does cause player fatigue if its not playing games in a congested period such as, the one we are currently in?

Atkinson also pointed out that Mo had never started a game for us on the gameweek we played Everton.

its obvious to the layman that an easy solution would be to move that game rest to the following week in a dead rubber. Why is the layman wrong, or why do you think the same manager hasnt given him that game off?

On the Everton game - no idea if that's the case and you;d have to speak to Klopp and his team why that's happened. It could be coincidence rather than anything deliberate.

The layman is 'wrong' because they don't have sufficient date to have an informed opinion. I know it's not the modern way but I think the fitness and conditioning experts at the club have a better idea what's going on than I do.

I'm not sure what Neil was talking about - Mo played against Southampton the week before we played Everton. In 20/21 he played in both of the games before Everton home and away. The previous year he was suffering with an ankle injury from the shithouse challenge in the Leicester game...

And I;m not sure that there's such a thing as a 'game rest' like a get of jail free card.

[Kenny's Jacket]

On the Everton game - no idea if that's the case and you;d have to speak to Klopp and his team why that's happened. It could be coincidence rather than anything deliberate.

The layman is 'wrong' because they don't have sufficient date to have an informed opinion. I know it's not the modern way but I think the fitness and conditioning experts at the club have a better idea what's going on than I do.

I'm not sure what Neil was talking about - Mo played against Southampton the week before we played Everton. In 20/21 he played in both of the games before Everton home and away. The previous year he was suffering with an ankle injury from the shithouse challenge in the Leicester game...

And Im not sure that there's such a thing as a 'game rest' like a get of jail free card.

What Neil was saying is that Mo has never played in the 14th game of the season, which is the midweek PL fixture in late November, it just happened to be Everton this year

tying in your "no such thing as game rest "comment with the  fitness and conditioning experts knowing more than the layman why do Managers including klopp rest players?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

On the Everton game - no idea if that's the case and you;d have to speak to Klopp and his team why that's happened. It could be coincidence rather than anything deliberate.

The layman is 'wrong' because they don't have sufficient date to have an informed opinion. I know it's not the modern way but I think the fitness and conditioning experts at the club have a better idea what's going on than I do.

I'm not sure what Neil was talking about - Mo played against Southampton the week before we played Everton. In 20/21 he played in both of the games before Everton home and away. The previous year he was suffering with an ankle injury from the shithouse challenge in the Leicester game...

And I;m not sure that there's such a thing as a 'game rest' like a get of jail free card.

I feel exactly the same.
I think the time to worry would be if we supported a club that did not believe in Sports Science, or even worse where the sports scientists were routinely ignored by the coaching staff who played players against advice.

[Jookie]

Interesting how strong all the major teams were this week who had nothing to play for as well - some a lot more than ours.

It’s always the same and a drum I’ve been banging for a while.

Not many teams went “weaker” than us this week in terms of changes.