Topic: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool

[simesy]

Did anyone notice even carra now seems to be giving him the ball more often than not.

[Yorkykopite]

Did anyone notice even carra now seems to be giving him the ball more often than not.

Didn't give it to him a single time last week against Wolves. Not once.

[simesy]

Didn't give it to him a single time last week against Wolves. Not once.

Sorry was talking about the derby.Maybe kenny's had a word.

[Sangria]

playing well, but they had 10 men for 70 mins so there was loads of time and space for our midfield to look boss.

It's all very well being a flat track bully against 10 man Everton, but Lucas needs to prove he can do the job against the big boys. Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Inter, etc.

[Yorkykopite]

Sorry was talking about the derby.Maybe kenny's had a word.

Hope so. But it's more likely that it's something to do with playing v 10 men - and no one pressing Carragher on the ball.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

Hope so. But it's more likely that it's something to do with playing v 10 men - and no one pressing Carragher on the ball.

Exactly that.

[new-red]

Did anyone notice even carra now seems to be giving him the ball more often than not.

Yea i did notice that.

[leivapool]

It's all very well being a flat track bully against 10 man Everton, but Lucas needs to prove he can do the job against the big boys. Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Inter, etc.

Nah, I don't think he's up to it.

[CHOPPER]

Didn't give it to him a single time last week against Wolves. Not once.

And he doesn't even let him sit on the back of the bus with the rest of the in gang either....I betya a tenner he gets picked last as well when they have a game at Melwood...."Fuck!...we've got Lucas....gerrin goal you.........

Carra and Lucas together in knockourt pairs!? It just ain't happenin is it lid.

[John C]

For all my appreciation of Lucas, the difference is this. Lucas without a trophy to his name is part of Liverpool's team. Lucas with a trophy to his name is part of Liverpool's history.

So you understood my point mate?

[John C]

In all honestly I don't believe you or I should draw comparisons, he isn't any of them players nor is he a Gerrard, he's a Lucas, a player in his own right, that has to improve on the offensive side to his game, if he doesn't he'll regress or become stagnant in that role. I'd prefer he had more strings to his bow than just being able to get stuck in and break down play. It's his next stage of development and it has to happen.

Exactly mate, I think we've taken over the baton on behalf of the early Lucas admirers. We don't want him to be  remembered as Lucas who was really good for us for a few years, we want him to be remembered as Lucas who was part of that cup winning team. You're right about it being the next stage of his development but its also a fundamental part of the next stage of the clubs development - Kenny is here win stuff and over the next couple of years only winners will be able to continue on his ride.

[stoa]

So you understood my point mate?

I understood that point as well, but in my view what was being discussed earlier was his ability and I think whether he has won anything doesn't have an influence on that. Hence me mentioning Torres. I get what you are trying to say, but I found it strange to bring that up in a discussion about Lucas' ability.

[stevedo]

Looking forward to the battle of the ex Gremio pair.

[pcch7]

I cringe at the thought of Lucas being injured for more than a few games.. Must not happen.

[Fluke]

Every player needs to keep improving, no doubt. But I would be just as happy if Lucas continued improving his ball retention and winning abilities, as much as his number of assists or goals.

To say he NEEDS to get more goals is rubbish if his primary job is not a goal scoring one. People saying don't compare to Makelele completely missed the posters point. It wasn't that Lucas should be as good, or anything like that. The point was that you don't NEED to get 20 assists/goals in a season to be an immense and important player.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad if he improved his shooting etc, but I'm more than happy with the job he is doing at the moment.

[Lille Camille]

He needs to because he has to, it's folly to think that he may not need to offer more to the team, they all can, they have to keep improving individually and collectively. We do that, and we'll be laughing, sit back and think that we/they have arrived and we'll be kidding ourselves.
It's not about being fair, it's about being realistic, realistic that the lad still needs to improve and I bet he'd say the same as well.

No he has developed and this is the kind of player he always will be. Some players score goals, some stop goals you can't just magically develop them into something different. He is a player who breaks up the other teams midfield and can keep things ticking with his passing. You can't just teach someone to be like Gerrard there are things in football or any sport for that matter you can't teach.

[stoa]

To say he NEEDS to get more goals is rubbish if his primary job is not a goal scoring one. People saying don't compare to Makelele completely missed the posters point. It wasn't that Lucas should be as good, or anything like that. The point was that you don't NEED to get 20 assists/goals in a season to be an immense and important player.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad if he improved his shooting etc, but I'm more than happy with the job he is doing at the moment.

To be fair, I don't think people are saying they expect xx goals/assists per season from Lucas. What they're saying is that he does get into good scoring positions, but just doesn't take them well enough to score. And I'd agree that this is something he should be working on. Not working on getting into those positions, but working on being more prolific IF he ends up in such a position.

[KK Legend]

Whilst Lucas did indeed have a good game, isn't it a tad worrying that he kind of had to? I mean, they were a man short for a large part of the game, the game was played in tiring conditions ( especially for 10 v 11), and going by some of the shall we say enthusiasm shown in here for this performance by Lucas aren't we slightly overlooking the fact that Everton with their 10 men still posed problems which Lucas as is his job had to deal with?

The passing stats I wouldn't read too much into either, Everton because of their disadvantage certainly weren't pressing as high as 10-15 yards away from our back 4 ( Lucas's area)anywhere near the level they would have and because of the extra space afforded particularly when playing v 10 you should always, always have a better pass accuracy and completion rate.

Not looking to detract anything from Lucas's performance, just pointing out that a d/m had a good game in a 10 v 11 scenario and he wasn't on the side with 10. Is it worth a worry?

[scared_person]

No he has developed and this is the kind of player he always will be. Some players score goals, some stop goals you can't just magically develop them into something different. He is a player who breaks up the other teams midfield and can keep things ticking with his passing. You can't just teach someone to be like Gerrard there are things in football or any sport for that matter you can't teach.

I agree that he is not going to dramatically change his style of play at this stage, but of course he can improve his finishing and become a player who is capable of scoring 5 or 10 a season.

At the minute he definately lacks a bit of composure in front of goal, but I've no doubt that he can improve upon that. He gets into dangerous positions fairly regularly.

[Sangria]

Whilst Lucas did indeed have a good game, isn't it a tad worrying that he kind of had to? I mean, they were a man short for a large part of the game, the game was played in tiring conditions ( especially for 10 v 11), and going by some of the shall we say enthusiasm shown in here for this performance by Lucas aren't we slightly overlooking the fact that Everton with their 10 men still posed problems which Lucas as is his job had to deal with?

The passing stats I wouldn't read too much into either, Everton because of their disadvantage certainly weren't pressing as high as 10-15 yards away from our back 4 ( Lucas's area)anywhere near the level they would have and because of the extra space afforded particularly when playing v 10 you should always, always have a better pass accuracy and completion rate.

Not looking to detract anything from Lucas's performance, just pointing out that a d/m had a good game in a 10 v 11 scenario and he wasn't on the side with 10. Is it worth a worry?

Yeah, it means Lucas keeps doing his job, and as much of everyone else's as he can manage.

"You will never have a team of 11 players who all play well all the time. It's more a case of maybe 8 or 9 playing well, while 2 or 3 have an off day. Those who don't have a good day will work hard and be helped by those other 8 or 9 players, because they know in the next game it might be them who don't play well and need the help. This was a philosophy preached by Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish."
Ronnie Moran, 1996

[Neil D]

Too often doing the work of two men at present.

[new-red]

No he has developed and this is the kind of player he always will be. Some players score goals, some stop goals you can't just magically develop them into something different. He is a player who breaks up the other teams midfield and can keep things ticking with his passing. You can't just teach someone to be like Gerrard there are things in football or any sport for that matter you can't teach.

i disagree, he is a naturally attacking player. Those qualities don't just disappear but he needs more opportunities in an advanced position to show what he can do. He had a great shot against steau, had a great run and finish against benfica. He has the ability but seldom gets a chance to show it.

I am not saying that he will add 15-20 goals a season but he can definitely chip in with 5 or so.

[Julio]

Too often doing the work of two men at present.

And it's a mark of what an absolutely outstanding player he is that he only rarely seems over-run.
What a player, and leader, this guy is.

[Aarhus]

Don't forget to vote! The lad deserves it.

http://www.northwestfootballawards.co.uk/index.php/your-vote/

[redgriffin73]

Don't forget to vote! The lad deserves it.

http://www.northwestfootballawards.co.uk/index.php/your-vote/

Done! 

[steveeastend]

Don't forget to vote! The lad deserves it.

http://www.northwestfootballawards.co.uk/index.php/your-vote/

Here too.

[groove]

I don't feel comfortable asking Lucas to try and get forward more almost as much as I fear for our unsettled defence if we take him out of the team completely. If that makes sense. Every time I think of Lucas going forward I'm reminded of that ball inside by Charlie Adam against Arsenal attempted to Lucas who had wandered up to join in the attack. Arsenal intercept and Nasri has a Lucas shaped hole to run into with our centre-backs shitting themselves and backing off as far as they possibly can.

[Sangria]

I don't feel comfortable asking Lucas to try and get forward more almost as much as I fear for our unsettled defence if we take him out of the team completely. If that makes sense. Every time I think of Lucas going forward I'm reminded of that ball inside by Charlie Adam against Arsenal attempted to Lucas who had wandered up to join in the attack. Arsenal intercept and Nasri has a Lucas shaped hole to run into with our centre-backs shitting themselves and backing off as far as they possibly can.

There is a way to get forward without abandoning the defence. That way is not dependent on Lucas alone.

[groove]

Also he's indirectly creative for me. He wins the ball back and moves it forward and wide quickly and to the right man. All he did on Saturday was do that and it kept the pressure in their half. The base of the attack and the first line of defence.

[GrkStav]

No doubt Lucas would admit he would like to improve this side of his game. 

What is hugely frustrating though is the amount of times Lucas ghosts in to the box and the ball never reaches him, it happens almost every game. For one reason or another, he is either ignored by his team mates, or as more usually happens, they try to pass to him and the pass is too poor - Suarez has been quite guilty here.  For Lucas to be more successful in attack his team mates need to provide accurate passes and when they do Lucas must finish them more clinically. 

I suspect he only needs to get one, and more goals will then come!

I agree with the basic substance of your post but I have to say he doesn't (yet) make those ghost runs with apparent intent (indicating to his team-mates that he is really open and ready to take advantage of his run in the box). I think he still looks 1. tentative and 2. like he's doing the ghost run for the effect it's to have on the defense.

The number of times he's been either ignored or been given a poor pass is not negligible but not exactly noteworthy, either.

[Twelfth Man]

There is a way to get forward without abandoning the defence. That way is not dependent on Lucas alone.

This is the problem CM whether a triangle or the more orthodox two player partnership is a balancing act. I don't think Lucas as of yet has really had a stable platform from which to move forward and attack with much confidence. He puts in the defensive shift of 1.5 player's, if he could just play as a natural holding CM with others around him putting in defensive shifts we might see Lucas flowering offensively.

[Sangria]

This is the problem CM whether a triangle or the more orthodox two player partnership is a balancing act. I don't think Lucas as of yet has really had a stable platform from which to move forward and attack with much confidence. He puts in the defensive shift of 1.5 player's, if he could just play as a natural holding CM with others around him putting in defensive shifts we might see Lucas flowering offensively.

I was thinking more of pushing the defensive line up so the backmost line isn't so far away from the frontmost line. If the defence, when the side is in possession, pushes up far enough to allow Lucas, still sitting in the area in front of them, to be the opposition's side of the centre circle, he's within range to make those passes that set up attacking movements. If you have another player sharing midfield who's comfortable holding that position, things become even more fluid, as there is no longer a single designated sitter and another designated roamer. If you have a whole bunch of players who are comfortable moving between the lines (and doing their defensive duties), things become a nightmare for the opposition.

You don't really need brilliance or flair to make this work, although it helps. It just needs the ability to do a bit of everything and the application to not let your teammates down. Shankly described it in detail in that interview.

[GrkStav]

I was thinking more of pushing the defensive line up so the backmost line isn't so far away from the frontmost line. If the defence, when the side is in possession, pushes up far enough to allow Lucas, still sitting in the area in front of them, to be the opposition's side of the centre circle, he's within range to make those passes that set up attacking movements. If you have another player sharing midfield who's comfortable holding that position, things become even more fluid, as there is no longer a single designated sitter and another designated roamer. If you have a whole bunch of players who are comfortable moving between the lines (and doing their defensive duties), things become a nightmare for the opposition.

You don't really need brilliance or flair to make this work, although it helps. It just needs the ability to do a bit of everything and the application to not let your teammates down. Shankly described it in detail in that interview.

A situation, basically, in which the two CBs and Lucas are effectively the defensive line, with Lucas more advanced than the CB, but the CBs at or 'ahead' of the midway line. I know Arsenal are not exactly flavor of the month these days, but they do play a very high defensive line. The other obvious example is Barcelona but . . . they also have some awesomely talented players.

[DaveCharlie]

As an aside, I bought the new FIFA 12 game - its good for a laugh with the boys on the weekend. Anyway, I was shocked, nay dismayed, to see Lucas' player rating. I thought that after his stellar year last year, surely they'd have compensated and topped up his stats a little to reflect his superior passing, tackling, workrate and game intelligence. Here's how bad the rating system EA Sports have applied is (midfielders only for comparison purposes):

Gerrard: 87
Downing: 82
Joe Cole: 80
Meireles: 80
Adam: 80
Bellamy: 79
Kuyt: 79
Aquilani: 79
Lucas: 78
Henderson: 77

Does this absolutely baffle anyone else, or does it just confirm how dramatically underrated he is outside of our club?

There's probably another thread for this somewhere - but the lack of respect this lad gets really bugs me!!!

[GrkStav]

As an aside, I bought the new FIFA 12 game - its good for a laugh with the boys on the weekend. Anyway, I was shocked, nay dismayed, to see Lucas' player rating. I thought that after his stellar year last year, surely they'd have compensated and topped up his stats a little to reflect his superior passing, tackling, workrate and game intelligence. Here's how bad the rating system EA Sports have applied is (midfielders only for comparison purposes):

Gerrard: 87
Downing: 82
Joe Cole: 80
Meireles: 80
Adam: 80
Bellamy: 79
Kuyt: 79
Aquilani: 79
Lucas: 78
Henderson: 77

Does this absolutely baffle anyone else, or does it just confirm how dramatically underrated he is outside of our club?

There's probably another thread for this somewhere - but the lack of respect this lad gets really bugs me!!!

Off-topic, but how do Bellamy and Kuyt get classed as "midfielders"? Oh, what's Maxi Rodriguez's rating? Spearing's?

[joezydudek]

As an aside, I bought the new FIFA 12 game - its good for a laugh with the boys on the weekend. Anyway, I was shocked, nay dismayed, to see Lucas' player rating. I thought that after his stellar year last year, surely they'd have compensated and topped up his stats a little to reflect his superior passing, tackling, workrate and game intelligence. Here's how bad the rating system EA Sports

Haven't bought the game yet so don't know for sure, but have you checked his attributes in each category? Maybe he has got really good passing, tackling etc, but low shooting ratings bring it right down? You can always edit him anyway

[Wesley Pipes]

Haven't bought the game yet so don't know for sure, but have you checked his attributes in each category? Maybe he has got really good passing, tackling etc, but low shooting ratings bring it right down? You can always edit him anyway

Who edits FIFA players?

[new-red]

Haven't bought the game yet so don't know for sure, but have you checked his attributes in each category? Maybe he has got really good passing, tackling etc, but low shooting ratings bring it right down? You can always edit him anyway

yea that is the case. His shooting is like 45, his finishing is 23!!!

tackling is 77 or something and his passing is like an 85.

[Vidocq]

i cant believe how people likes that game

[new-red]

i cant believe how people likes that game

have you played the new one? It is incredible. So much better than 10 or 11. They really have created a fantastic simulation.