Topic: Lucas’ critical role for Liverpool

[Sangria]

footy was a physical sport for over a century then in the 90`s they started turning it into a non contact sport.
preferred the game years ago myself

And Van Basten had his career cut short by tackles that consistently aimed at his ankles. The trend of outlawing dangerous tackles is to make sure players like Van Basten and Maradona don't have to play with the constant and intentional danger of being crippled. Maradona was a good example, but Van Basten was the player who made the authorities decide enough was enough. It was the right thing to do, and the likes of Collina showed referees can allow a certain amount of physical competition without the players abusing the game with simulation.

[its cold in the stands]

And Van Basten had his career cut short by tackles that consistently aimed at his ankles. The trend of outlawing dangerous tackles is to make sure players like Van Basten and Maradona don't have to play with the constant and intentional danger of being crippled. Maradona was a good example, but Van Basten was the player who made the authorities decide enough was enough. It was the right thing to do, and the likes of Collina showed referees can allow a certain amount of physical competition without the players abusing the game with simulation.

that was just part of the game, i was brought up on footy being a physical sport and i find modern footy hard to watch when players start rolling around.
if i started watching footy in 1990 i would probably know no different, but it`s hard to have watched the likes of tommy smith and graeme souness play and then watch players going off on stretchers covered with blankets and with oxygen bottles and paramedics surrounding them only to get to the sidelines and then jump up and start waving to come back on.
it`s been a change for the worse imo.

[Il Conte]

that was just part of the game

Career-ending tackles? Agree about the fake injuries though, makes me sick.

[its cold in the stands]

Career-ending tackles? Agree about the fake injuries though, makes me sick.

no one wants to see career ending tackles but hard tackles were part of the game.
they were part of the game for over 100 years.

[The 5th Benitle]

Lucas and Sterling conversing on twitter... definitely captain material someday

What's the rolling eyes smiley for? You are aware that our owner and manager use twitter, right?

[The 5th Benitle]

Like peas in a pod. Though to be fair, Finnan did score the odd goal and if we're being really honest about it; was alot more pleasing on the eye.

Good God. You actually mean that second bit don't you. I loved Finnan but he was far from pleasing on the eye. Lucas, on the other hand, is extremely so. If you like great technical ability, crisp passing and intelligent movement, that is.

[GrkStav]

If Brazil had central midfielders of anything like the calibre of their right-backs (i.e. Maicon and Alves).  Then Lucas might find it trickier to nail down a starting spot.

People were (rightly) lambasted for calling Lucas the 'worst Brazilian ever' due to his lack of tricks and the more extravagant talents associated with the samba boys.  But to dismiss a comparison with Finnan on the basis that you don't imagine him starting for Brazil, well, that's almost as bad in my mind.

The comparison to Finnan may be apt but not for the reasons given.

And, I'll be damned if I concede that effing Arbeloa was an improvement over Finnan (I am a well known, repeat-offender, Arbeloa detractor so don't take what I say about him terribly seriously).

As for the comparisons to past LFC DM greats, Lucas is not far from Didi's standard defensively and is already a better passer. Shooting from distance on the other hand, not so much.

[GrkStav]

nah, not having that, back in the day players could tackle from behind, they could use 2 footed tackles and 1 player getting sent off in any of the 4 divisions was big news back then, these days there`s about 20 every week.
ref`s these days are taught to blow for a foul if they see a passage of play getting heated to take the heat of the situation, years ago they just let the game run.
any player from these days would get a shock if they played years ago, davies and fellaini included
it`s not just lucas btw, how would bale, lennon or downing handle it if stuart pearce or julian dicks was crashing into them every time they got the ball, thats why barnes was so good, he took all that in his stride.

I've only been watching football since about 1971-2 that I can claim made any actual sense to me as a sport.

Football today is a much, much, much more athletic, much more professional sport. The simulation and all that is negative, but to complain about today's game's lack of physicality based on the English Premier League (which by Continental or South American standards is remarkably loosely refereed) is a bit much, in my opinion.

When I watch replays of games from the 1970s and 1980s I do not think to myself "now, that's how the game should still be played". Slow, unfit men, lumbering around compared to today's footballers. All these so-called "hard men" from back in the day would not be classed as "hard men" today or survive. There are tennis players today that are bigger, more muscular, harder than some of the top footballers back in the day.

It's not even close, in my opinion.

[carling]

The comparison to Finnan may be apt but not for the reasons given.

Yeah to be honest I thought I could maybe give few better reasons.  Finnan was a specialist right-back, he had so many aspects of that position completely nailed, and was extremely consistent with them.  His positioning at right-back was always exceptional. he knew where to be, he knew how that position much be defended, it was drilled into him.  You would never see them balls being played through him like you saw with Skrtel against Spurs (who obviously isn't a specialist right-back - just called in to do the job at the worst possible time!).

Much the same with Lucas, he is a centre mid through and through, you wouldn't want him anywhere else.  He has obviously worked extremely hard at what he does and a lot of it has become second nature to him.  I had a cracking seat for the Everton match and I saw two almost identical situations where Lucas came to help out over near the right back position when it looked like we might get overrun.  I noticed because both times he ran virtually in a straight line towards me.  I think the first time the ball ended up in the air and he played a nice cushioned header to Kelly who had time to get the ball forward.  I think another time he made himself available for a pass when we were a bit under the cosh, and we managed to play the ball out well.

(Edited because I got the sides of the pitch mixed up, that's what drinking from 10 in the morning does to you!)

So yeah I now expect Lucas to do that kind of thing 99 times out of a 100 and it is a big part of his role.  Same as you always saw Finnan do parts of his role right 99 times out of a 100.

I still want Lucas to add more to his game for me to get to where some of you guys are with him.  But for the above reasons and more he has got a great platform to work from. 

As for the comparisons to past LFC DM greats, Lucas is not far from Didi's standard defensively and is already a better passer. Shooting from distance on the other hand, not so much.

I think he's got some way to go to reach Didi's level myself.  I mentioned on here I watched a game on the LFC channel from back in 2002 when we played Bolton.  Christ Didi was something else, he looked head and shoulders above everyone on the pitch, and that was even with a young Gerrard in there.  Seriously he actually looked like a bloke playing with a load of kids at times.  The tackling, the passing, just everything was right out of the top drawer, no one could get near him he was always a yard ahead.  Maybe that was a particularly good game and my memory is a bit skewed (I was pretty young back then!), but for me Lucas has still got quite a way to go before he's in the Kaiser's league!

[Sevo]

 

I think he's got some way to go to reach Didi's level myself.  I mentioned on here I watched a game on the LFC channel from back in 2002 when we played Bolton.  Christ Didi was something else, he looked head and shoulders above everyone on the pitch, and that was even with a young Gerrard in there.  Seriously he actually looked like a bloke playing with a load of kids at times.  The tackling, the passing, just everything was right out of the top drawer, no one could get near him he was always a yard ahead.  Maybe that was a particularly good game and my memory is a bit skewed (I was pretty young back then!), but for me Lucas has still got quite a way to go before he's in the Kaiser's league!
[/quote]

Having watched Didi throughout his Liverpool career, I think Lucas does as much as him now.

[NOTBORNIN1982]

If there was ever a player I completely changed my opinion on it is this man. To come back and be as good as he has been for the last 18 months after all the stick he got... what a character.

[carling]

 

I think he's got some way to go to reach Didi's level myself.  I mentioned on here I watched a game on the LFC channel from back in 2002 when we played Bolton.  Christ Didi was something else, he looked head and shoulders above everyone on the pitch, and that was even with a young Gerrard in there.  Seriously he actually looked like a bloke playing with a load of kids at times.  The tackling, the passing, just everything was right out of the top drawer, no one could get near him he was always a yard ahead.  Maybe that was a particularly good game and my memory is a bit skewed (I was pretty young back then!), but for me Lucas has still got quite a way to go before he's in the Kaiser's league!


Having watched Didi throughout his Liverpool career, I think Lucas does as much as him now.

Each to their own.  What I saw from Hamann in that game was just utter domination, I remember a lot of others as well.  I've seen Lucas get the better of a lot of midfields but never quite like that.

Didi had a few other things in his locker as well.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5TNb57ZNuWQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/5TNb57ZNuWQ</a>

[Matt8Pie]

How old was Didi when he joined us? How old is Lucas now?

[diddyfaz-golborne]

i never doubted lucas..just knew there was something..our player of the season last year no doubt!

[diddyfaz-golborne]

23/24

How old was Didi when he joined us? How old is Lucas now?

[koolkamal]

How old was Didi when he joined us? How old is Lucas now?

Didi was about 28 when he joined us. Lucas is 24.

[Matt8Pie]

Didi was about 28 when he joined us. Lucas is 24.

Exactly.

[subroc]

Apart from both of them being underrated by many fans, I do not understand the comparisons with Finnan. Finnan was an adequate rightback but he was in no way exceptional. He did the usual things competently but Arbeloa was a step up defensively from him and Johnson was a clear step up from both Arbeloa and Finnan.

On the other hand, the only people who really underrrate Lucas are some fans and some journalists and broadcast TV host "heads". Managers appreciate what he does and can do and put him at the heart of their plans. Dalglish and the Brazil coach have made him a regular. The majority of fans consider Lucas to be the best performing player in Liverpool colours last season.

Lucas is an exceptional defensive midfielder. Even that much-maligned word "world class" may be applied to him. He is the metronome for the passing game of the club. Everything flows through him. When the defence clears the ball, he is invariably the one who picks it up and distributes it. He is the destroyer of the other side's game par excellence. He tackles less spectacularly than Mascherano and he does not chase other players as dramatically as Mascherano - but he is just as effective. For some reason, the eye does not consciously notice him. But suddenly he is there, next to the player and he is taking the ball cleanly away from him. His passes are frequently first time and always finds a teammate in space or in a better position. He helps the team keep possession.

The comparisons with Hamann are more apt but I would say that Hamann was even in his pomp, not as good as Lucas is today. His passing was not as good. His reading of the game was as good or better than Lucas due to his greater experience. But his tackling was not as good. His mobility was not as good. His speed was not as good. Mascherano was better than Hamann but Lucas is as good or perhaps even better than Mascherano.

[subroc]

Like peas in a pod. Though to be fair, Finnan did score the odd goal and if we're being really honest about it; was alot more pleasing on the eye.

You are way off base there IMHO. Is the sight of a midfielder dominating the midfield through breaking down the opposition's attacks, screening the defence, probviding the platform for the attack through keeping possession and distirbuting the ball constantly,a nd doing those tasks better than anyone else playing in his position in the Premiership not pleasing to you?!

[subroc]

Mascherano's passing was very underrated in my opinion. That pass for Ngog against Arsenal and the throughball for Torres at the end of the Benfica game at Anfield are just a couple of examples off the top of my head. People try to make out as if he was just a headless chicken running around in the middle who occasionally did the odd slide tackle for the camera. He was brilliant at the kind of thing that Lucas did at the end of the Wolves game (when he tracked back into the right back position to stop a counter attack).

Lucas is getting better year by year but for me he's not yet at Mascherano's level. He may be one day though....

I do love his professionalism mind you.

Mascherano was truly exceptional as a destroyer. And I agree that his passing ability was greatly underrated - he had an accurate long ball on him and I recall him using it well several times. Hoewver, int erms of short-passing and keeping the possession and probing from the back, Mascherano was never in Lucas' class.

[blah]

Mascherano was truly exceptional as a destroyer. And I agree that his passing ability was greatly underrated - he had an accurate long ball on him and I recall him using it well several times. Hoewver, int erms of short-passing and keeping the possession and probing from the back, Mascherano was never in Lucas' class.

Anyone remember Lucas' pass during the 5 goal drubbing of Newcastle two years ago? Don't see why Lucas and Spearing couldn't be the most destructive force in the EPL.

[subroc]

Anyone remember Lucas' pass during the 5 goal drubbing of Newcastle two years ago? Don't see why Lucas and Spearing couldn't be the most destructive force in the EPL.

Actually I suspect that Lucas' passing game and ability to replicate the possession game that Xabi engendered was the reason why Benitez allowed Xabi to be sold and why he wanted Mascherano for another season - he was allowing Lucas the opportunity to fully mature into his role and replacing both thsoe icons at the same time would have been too much. As it was, it was a large step up and it was no smooth sailing all the way but Lucas is now reaping the fruits of that trust and player development. Lucas now combines to a large degree the qualities of both Xabi and Mascherano - he has maybe 80% or so of Xabi's passing abiltiy and he has 100% of Mascherano's effectiveness as a destroyer, and he will only get better.

[RojoLeón]

wouldnt buy fouls, players back then would have been too embaressed to roll around like they do these days.

Franny Lee says bollocks to that!

[ozzy-red]

Anyone remember Lucas' pass during the 5 goal drubbing of Newcastle two years ago? Don't see why Lucas and Spearing couldn't be the most destructive force in the EPL.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-0H6WRH6iKA?version=3" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/-0H6WRH6iKA?version=3</a>

[subroc]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-0H6WRH6iKA?version=3" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/-0H6WRH6iKA?version=3</a>

<sigh> what a team we had...

[bravarado7]

<sigh> what a team we had...

Wow...Just wow... Top class talent all over the pitch...

[Pistolero]

i never doubted lucas..just knew there was something..our player of the season last year no doubt!

there were 3000 people at the Sex Pistols gig at Manchester Free Trade Hall....

[tea_tree]

Apart from both of them being underrated by many fans, I do not understand the comparisons with Finnan. Finnan was an adequate rightback but he was in no way exceptional. He did the usual things competently but Arbeloa was a step up defensively from him and Johnson was a clear step up from both Arbeloa and Finnan.

On the other hand, the only people who really underrrate Lucas are some fans and some journalists and broadcast TV host "heads". Managers appreciate what he does and can do and put him at the heart of their plans. Dalglish and the Brazil coach have made him a regular. The majority of fans consider Lucas to be the best performing player in Liverpool colours last season.

Lucas is an exceptional defensive midfielder. Even that much-maligned word "world class" may be applied to him. He is the metronome for the passing game of the club. Everything flows through him. When the defence clears the ball, he is invariably the one who picks it up and distributes it. He is the destroyer of the other side's game par excellence. He tackles less spectacularly than Mascherano and he does not chase other players as dramatically as Mascherano - but he is just as effective. For some reason, the eye does not consciously notice him. But suddenly he is there, next to the player and he is taking the ball cleanly away from him. His passes are frequently first time and always finds a teammate in space or in a better position. He helps the team keep possession.

The comparisons with Hamann are more apt but I would say that Hamann was even in his pomp, not as good as Lucas is today. His passing was not as good. His reading of the game was as good or better than Lucas due to his greater experience. But his tackling was not as good. His mobility was not as good. His speed was not as good. Mascherano was better than Hamann but Lucas is as good or perhaps even better than Mascherano.

Well said. I read the past few pages & seeing a merely functional player like Finnan being compared to Lucas was something I found bizarre. In terms of technical ability Finnan is not even in the same class, a more apt comparison would probably be Finnan & Carragher who both played the rb role in a similar manner and are technically limited players.

[Hazell]

Actually I suspect that Lucas' passing game and ability to replicate the possession game that Xabi engendered was the reason why Benitez allowed Xabi to be sold and why he wanted Mascherano for another season - he was allowing Lucas the opportunity to fully mature into his role and replacing both thsoe icons at the same time would have been too much. As it was, it was a large step up and it was no smooth sailing all the way but Lucas is now reaping the fruits of that trust and player development. Lucas now combines to a large degree the qualities of both Xabi and Mascherano - he has maybe 80% or so of Xabi's passing abiltiy and he has 100% of Mascherano's effectiveness as a destroyer, and he will only get better.

What Lucas also has is Alonso's intelligence, team ethic and positioning, maybe the latter not to the extent that Xabi had, but still. He's also more dynamic than Xabi, which, in the role he plays, is obviously important. Really wish he was able to strike up a partnership with Mascherano and Aquilani as it would have been wonderful to watch IMO but alas, we never got that opportunity.

[CHOPPER]

I long for the day that Lucas can put a performance in like Finnan did, and win us the European cup.

Worra guy...Worra thigh!!!

[shravan.satya]

I guess this (all the high praise) has something to do with people going to the game and observing the lad. Watching our games from India in TV, I could see that he has become an exceptional tackler but other than that not much that contributes to the attacking play. How different it is to watch a game from TV and at the stadium? I am talking purely of the footballing side and not the atmosphere, of course the atmosphere in the ground is second to none.

[Pistolero]

Lucas now combines to a large degree the qualities of both Xabi and Mascherano - he has maybe 80% or so of Xabi's passing abiltiy and he has 100% of Mascherano's effectiveness as a destroyer, and he will only get better.

see, this is typical of the see-saw nature of this thread.......an anti-Lucas fan will come on and talk bollocks....swiftly followed by a Lucasite who will come along and balance it out with equal amounts of dung...



an entertaining read though.

[CHOPPER]

I guess this (all the high praise) has something to do with people going to the game and observing the lad. Watching our games from India in TV, I could see that he has become an exceptional tackler but other than that not much that contributes to the attacking play. How different it is to watch a game from TV and at the stadium? I am talking purely of the footballing side and not the atmosphere, of course the atmosphere in the ground is second to none.

Go the game!..in here! you having a laugh mate? Most of the posters in this thread have never set foot in Anfield, let alone seen him play in person.

[Buzz Killington]

Go the game!..in here! you having a laugh mate? Most Some of the posters in this thread have never set foot in Anfield, let alone seen him play in person.

Aye, it's why some of the blerts think he's shit.

[shravan.satya]

Go the game!..in here! you having a laugh mate? Most of the posters in this thread have never set foot in Anfield, let alone seen him play in person.

If that is the case, it is really surprising how they are saying he is as good as 80% of Alonso and 100% of Masch etc....it sounds pretty stupid. He is a neat player, puts in the tackle, gets the ball beautifully. To compare his attacking game and passing to Alonso is insane.

[CHOPPER]

Aye, it's why some of the blerts think he's shit.

Indeed, or even think he's the second coming.

[CHOPPER]

If that is the case, it is really surprising how they are saying he is as good as 80% of Alonso and 100% of Masch etc....it sounds pretty stupid. He is a neat player, puts in the tackle, gets the ball beautifully. To compare his attacking game and passing to Alonso is insane.

You're not wrong mate.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Go the game!..in here! you having a laugh mate? Most of the posters in this thread have never set foot in Anfield, let alone seen him play in person.

No-one with 8 pints onboard and standing on the back of the Kop offers a more educated opinion on lucas or any other footballing matter then me. I'd make an exception to some of the elderly gentlemen in the main stand, but that is as far as it goes.

Yours truly armachair society

[CHOPPER]

No-one with 8 pints onboard and standing on the back of the Kop offers a more educated opinion on lucas or any other footballing matter then me. I'd make an exception to some of the elderly gentlemen in the main stand, but that is as far as it goes.

Yours truly armachair society

8 pints is but a mere aperitif to a seasoned match goer. In fact, it lends itself to hightening the senses as opposed to dulling them. I myself once heard two Humpback whales discussing the merits of a flat back four versus a 3 at the back with a holding mid-fielder, in the North Atlantic, once. Swear down.

[MassDriver]

I have been one of the most vocal supporters on this forum and he IS a top notch 'shielding' midfielder now , probably the best in the league.

However , Lucas has to go some way before he becomes as good or better than Didi Hamann. Loved Hamann  , was my favourite player of that era. His distribution was as good as his tackling and his game intelligence was second to none.