Topic: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...

[gazzalfc]

think a couple of people need to take a step back and calm down a bit.

It sounds like a very exciting book and I will be getting a copy when it comes out.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any legal backlash yet. 

[Azi]

does any one know if theres going to be a electronic version of this for the kindle ?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

does any one know if theres going to be a electronic version of this for the kindle ?

there isnt gonna be a kindle version

[sforzisi]

What's the name of the episode?

The Game Five - Episode 36 - No big spending under Kroenke
ReleasedApr 11, 2011

Resurgent West Brom, flattering Arsenal and Champions league upsets

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The Game Five - Episode 36 - No big spending under Kroenke
ReleasedApr 11, 2011

Resurgent West Brom, flattering Arsenal and Champions league upsets

is that the one where barclay and the other one accuse gerrard and carragher of borderline bullying of some of the foreign lads

[JP-65]

there isnt gonna be a kindle version

I've pressed the "I want a kindle version of this" button on amazon.  If enough do it, maybe one will come along.

[Eeyore]

I disagree, xerxes just views the truth in a different way to most of us

[Chakan]

So has xerxes1 apologized yet? Or is it just one more thing he passed off as fact and then got shown up for?

[-Q-]

Can't believe we're still likely to finish top 6 this year after all that.

It is such a shame that this year started so badly for us, when you look at the table- just beating the teams that are in the bottom five would mean we'd be right behind Man Utd and fighting for the title.  I know Kenny lost a few of those games, but that was in the context of a bad start to the season.  Imagine if he'd been appointed in the summer, where would we be now...?

[sforzisi]

is that the one where barclay and the other one accuse gerrard and carragher of borderline bullying of some of the foreign lads

Yes, that's the one. They also say JC and SG are or were doing things that players should not do. Wonder how much truth all these accusations have...

[Chakan]

It is such a shame that this year started so badly for us, when you look at the table- just beating the teams that are in the bottom five would mean we'd be right behind Man Utd and fighting for the title.  I know Kenny lost a few of those games, but that was in the context of a bad start to the season.  Imagine if he'd been appointed in the summer, where would we be now...?

Imagine if we hadn't sacked Rafa

[1021]

And that's why it's a group of 1, he has amazing shades though

"I've never felt being in a minority of one was in any way an indication that I might be in error"

That's his signature ^^

[jillcwhomever]

is that the one where barclay and the other one accuse gerrard and carragher of borderline bullying of some of the foreign lads

I sent you a message mate.

[Ambrosia]

No one does "being spectacularly wrong" as well as xerxes 

Yes, that's the one. They also say JC and SG are or were doing things that players should not do. Wonder how much truth all these accusations have...

I must say, if Carragher/Gerrard were involved in some political shenanigans at the club during the H&G period, what does Brian Reade get out of not outing their role in it too?

[-Q-]

Imagine if we hadn't sacked Rafa

 
I don't know ... it seems that there were ill feelings all around and it was good for him to leave ( also for his sake). He also made many mistakes ( that he is reflecting on now) and I don't think he had the ability to unite the club the way KK is doing now. I just wish that the new owners appointed KK the day they took the club over - because I think there was a role for RH in all this nightmare-we can blame him the way we never would KK or Rafa  - but it was clear that he needs to go with the stupid yanks.

I think Rafa needs to mature and learn a bit more before it is time for him to come back. Will he ever get that chance? I don't know, perhaps it is unlikely at this point but I still would like him to have that chance. Once KK gets us to 20 titles+ 

[TepidT2O]

If you mean by telling lies then yes ...

Ooh unfair, it's just that reality is different for him....really he believes everything he says, it would be so much quieter without him

[Chakan]

Ooh unfair, it's just that reality is different for him....really he believes everything he says, it would be so much quieter without him

Oh I have no doubt he believes everything he says, which is the scary bit.

[Hazell]

Reading over the last few pages, I'm more confused about a lot of things that happened. Aside from the accusations at Rafa, Gerrard and Carra - which I don't think will ever be proved/disporved for the latter 2 and lies about Rafa by some people, the biggest thing I don't get is why Hicks gave Rafa a 5 year contract if he was so keen to get rid of him. Was it bluster, shooting from the hip, or did he think that he'd be able to keep control of the club that way and if so, how would that work? Sorry if that's a dumb question, this thread over the last few days has brought up a lot of things.

[12Kings]

I still want Rafa back managing this club, I think it's also what he wants more than anything else.

[liverbnz]

astounded reading them articles over the last few days. If nothing else it will encourage us to sleep with one eye open re our new owners.

With the book I don't think I'll be reading it anytime soon. Reading the the excerpts brought back too many bad feelings. The wound is still too fresh to relive it all over again. After Kenny wins us number 19 would be a better time I think.

[SpartanTree. No deccies or lights.]

Ordered the book. Looking forward to reading it. I hope that this thread stay open long enough for the debate to continue, because though we have moved on and it was an ugly saga, it was an important one. And some of the effects of the regime are still being felt today.

I don't think I can accurately discribe my emotions reading the three extracts. Anger, frustration, finding the whole thing laughable, disbelife, anger again, sadness, a great deal more anger, and relief.

Three things have struck me.
The general incompetence of Gillett and Hicks. I mean, I think I have given them too much credit.  For a while I thought they were evil masterminds, horrible capatilist driven, money grabbing scumbags. Then as the regime grew longer, their incompetence grew more and more apparent. I cannot remember who, but at the SOS Independence Day Rally, I remember one of the speakers referring to them as the "poorest billionaires in history". But the idea that they were running around grabbing choc ices, falling out over who had the best scarf, and offering one of Europes finest tacticians a treadmill as part of his transfer budget, they sound mentally ill.
They should never have been allowed anywhere near the football club. Incompetence extended to theose responsible for the deal. Parry and Moores should be fucking ashamed of themselves. A google search as we later found out couold have told us a hell of a lot about these cowboys, but for fucks sake when handing over the family silver as they so eloquently put it, just trusting someone on the character and credentials of a person is as inexplicable as it is unforgivable. I hate the pair of them.

Empathy, more love for Rafa, and frustration at what would, could, and should have been with him in charge.
The fact that press were being briefed about him being mentally ill? You have to take into consideration that English isn't Rafa's first language, and he is having to have conversations with men who are offering him players in the draft. He must have been as confused as hell. That people use Rafa's politiking as a stick to beat him with is a disgrace. Look at Ferguson at Man Utd, he has sat back, ensured his job security, and allowed the Glazers to rack up the debt into astronomical sums, and whilst the true supporters (much like our own) take the fight to the gobshites he has told them to pipe down and told the world how great the very people raping over their club are. You can tell why he has aged so drastically, it happened pretty much from the summer after Athens. He was forced to take sides, switch sides, trying to consolidate a transfer budget for us, and laterly trying to prevent them asset strip our squad. Without him speaking up we would have been in the dark for a hell of a lot longer.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Rafa's biggest mistake at Liverpool was falling in love with the place the way he did. How many offes did he have to go elsewhere in his time here. Juventus were after him. Real Madrid came knocing on more than one occasion (his boyhood club, his dream job) and he stuck by Liverpool FC, whilst the bellends in charge were offering him draft picks, saying he was mentally ill, chatting up Jurgen fucking Klinnsman, and laterly had an MD who decided he knew better than the European Cup winning manager of Rafa's stature and started making plans of his own. From the cold hearted, calculated Rafa Benitez standpoint he should have fucked us off before that Porto match, but no he and his family stuck with us.

I don't care if this makes me look like a tart who loves Rafa too much, and should move on. We were lucky to have him, and this only reaffirms this fact.

And finally, I don't care if this makes me the worst Liverpool fan in the world, a Rafanista (because apparently in some quarters not ebing happy with their actions equates to being a conspiritor and being a member of a cult), a knobhead. Gerrard and Carragher should have spoke up but they didn't. They are shithouses.
If they said, we just didn't understand or we didn't realise how bad it was until we were in court, then I could just about accept it. But when Reina and Torres were putting themselves out there and opposing the ownership (not just supporting the manager) it was the duty of the captain and VC, the "heart and soul" of the club, "Mr Liverpool I and II" to do the same. I share the view of Pepe on this. They didn't have to back the manager they just had to oppose the ownership. To speak out now, talk about how tough it was for them, and then lump Rafa and Hicks and Gillett in together as part of the problem, is unnacceptable. Will still support them as players but this above any rumblings about their role in Rafa's departure has IMO sullied their legacy.

Fascinating book this will prove to be.

Spot on.

[Shamrock3131]

*ahem*

FUCK OFF YOU FAT FUCKING FUCKER OF A C*NT.

well said , just what i was thinking .

[Eeyore]

Reading over the last few pages, I'm more confused about a lot of things that happened. Aside from the accusations at Rafa, Gerrard and Carra - which I don't think will ever be proved/disporved for the latter 2 and lies about Rafa by some people, the biggest thing I don't get is why Hicks gave Rafa a 5 year contract if he was so keen to get rid of him. Was it bluster, shooting from the hip, or did he think that he'd be able to keep control of the club that way and if so, how would that work? Sorry if that's a dumb question, this thread over the last few days has brought up a lot of things.

When Parry and Benitez's relationship broke down Hicks and Gillet took sides and Hicks tried to win over the fans by offering Benitez a new contract. Benitez knew full well it was political maneuvering by Hicks and refused to sign the contract until the control of the academy and control of the transfer budget were returned to the manager.

Those two things are absolutely pivotal to most of the things that we have going for us at the moment, without the insistence of control returning to the manager we would have no Dalglish, no Segura and Borrell and no crop of outstanding talent coming through.

Hicks may of hated Benitez but at that time luckily he needed to see of Gillet more than Benitez.

[CHOPPER]

I still want Rafa back managing this club, I think it's also what he wants more than anything else.

Fortunately we have a manager and won't be needing any other manager for fucking ages.

[Hazell]

When Parry and Benitez's relationship broke down Hicks and Gillet took sides and Hicks tried to win over the fans by offering Benitez a new contract. Benitez knew full well it was political maneuvering by Hicks and refused to sign the contract until the control of the academy and control of the transfer budget were returned to the manager.

Those two things are absolutely pivotal to most of the things that we have going for us at the moment, without the insistence of control returning to the manager we would have no Dalglish, no Segura and Borrell and no crop of outstanding talent coming through.

Hicks may of hated Benitez but at that time luckily he needed to see of Gillet more than Benitez.

Oh right. Not that I don't believe you, but in relation to the terms of Rafa's contract, is there a source about Rafa's control of the academy and the transfer budget? About the academy, I'm pretty sure Rafa himself has said this and Dalglish has too.

[FernandoTourettes]

Ordered the book. Looking forward to reading it. I hope that this thread stay open long enough for the debate to continue, because though we have moved on and it was an ugly saga, it was an important one. And some of the effects of the regime are still being felt today.

I don't think I can accurately discribe my emotions reading the three extracts. Anger, frustration, finding the whole thing laughable, disbelife, anger again, sadness, a great deal more anger, and relief.

Three things have struck me.
The general incompetence of Gillett and Hicks. I mean, I think I have given them too much credit.  For a while I thought they were evil masterminds, horrible capatilist driven, money grabbing scumbags. Then as the regime grew longer, their incompetence grew more and more apparent. I cannot remember who, but at the SOS Independence Day Rally, I remember one of the speakers referring to them as the "poorest billionaires in history". But the idea that they were running around grabbing choc ices, falling out over who had the best scarf, and offering one of Europes finest tacticians a treadmill as part of his transfer budget, they sound mentally ill.
They should never have been allowed anywhere near the football club. Incompetence extended to theose responsible for the deal. Parry and Moores should be fucking ashamed of themselves. A google search as we later found out couold have told us a hell of a lot about these cowboys, but for fucks sake when handing over the family silver as they so eloquently put it, just trusting someone on the character and credentials of a person is as inexplicable as it is unforgivable. I hate the pair of them.

Empathy, more love for Rafa, and frustration at what would, could, and should have been with him in charge.
The fact that press were being briefed about him being mentally ill? You have to take into consideration that English isn't Rafa's first language, and he is having to have conversations with men who are offering him players in the draft. He must have been as confused as hell. That people use Rafa's politiking as a stick to beat him with is a disgrace. Look at Ferguson at Man Utd, he has sat back, ensured his job security, and allowed the Glazers to rack up the debt into astronomical sums, and whilst the true supporters (much like our own) take the fight to the gobshites he has told them to pipe down and told the world how great the very people raping over their club are. You can tell why he has aged so drastically, it happened pretty much from the summer after Athens. He was forced to take sides, switch sides, trying to consolidate a transfer budget for us, and laterly trying to prevent them asset strip our squad. Without him speaking up we would have been in the dark for a hell of a lot longer.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Rafa's biggest mistake at Liverpool was falling in love with the place the way he did. How many offes did he have to go elsewhere in his time here. Juventus were after him. Real Madrid came knocing on more than one occasion (his boyhood club, his dream job) and he stuck by Liverpool FC, whilst the bellends in charge were offering him draft picks, saying he was mentally ill, chatting up Jurgen fucking Klinnsman, and laterly had an MD who decided he knew better than the European Cup winning manager of Rafa's stature and started making plans of his own. From the cold hearted, calculated Rafa Benitez standpoint he should have fucked us off before that Porto match, but no he and his family stuck with us.

I don't care if this makes me look like a tart who loves Rafa too much, and should move on. We were lucky to have him, and this only reaffirms this fact.

And finally, I don't care if this makes me the worst Liverpool fan in the world, a Rafanista (because apparently in some quarters not ebing happy with their actions equates to being a conspiritor and being a member of a cult), a knobhead. Gerrard and Carragher should have spoke up but they didn't. They are shithouses.
If they said, we just didn't understand or we didn't realise how bad it was until we were in court, then I could just about accept it. But when Reina and Torres were putting themselves out there and opposing the ownership (not just supporting the manager) it was the duty of the captain and VC, the "heart and soul" of the club, "Mr Liverpool I and II" to do the same. I share the view of Pepe on this. They didn't have to back the manager they just had to oppose the ownership. To speak out now, talk about how tough it was for them, and then lump Rafa and Hicks and Gillett in together as part of the problem, is unnacceptable. Will still support them as players but this above any rumblings about their role in Rafa's departure has IMO sullied their legacy.

Fascinating book this will prove to be.

Fantastic post. I'm with you on this one.

[Eeyore]

Oh right. Not that I don't believe you, but in relation to the terms of Rafa's contract, is there a source about Rafa's control of the academy and the transfer budget? About the academy, I'm pretty sure Rafa himself has said this and Dalglish has too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/16/rafael-benitez-new-contract-liverpool-rejected-george-gillett-tom-hicks

Rafael Benitez has thrown his long-term future at Liverpool into doubt by rejecting a new contract offered by the club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

The Liverpool manager has refused to back down over his wish for any new deal to include greater authority over the club's transfer policy. At present that is the domain of the chief executive, Rick Parry, and the Americans are content with the existing structure and unwilling to bow to Benítez's demands. The Spaniard responded this morning by announcing that he has turned down their offer.

Benítez said: "The owners feel that the manager's decisions need to be subject to the chief executive but I know that I am subject to results and to our fans and they are the best judges I will ever have. I have a lot of experience in football at different clubs and if you do not have a technical director and you are the manager you have to have control of the football decisions. But always within the confines of a budget which is controlled by the owners and the club.

"In this scenario the manager knows the amount of money he has available to him and can decide how much he should spend on each player according to the needs of the team. The only person who can decide the value of a player to his squad is the manager because he knows what elements are needed to improve the squad."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1113564/Rafa-rebel-Liverpool-boss-Benitez-power-battle-transfers.html


Benitez, with just 17 months left on his current agreement, said talks were ongoing.

He told the Liverpool Echo: 'My agent only received the draft document of my contract yesterday evening.

'We have agreed the length of contract and we have agreed the salary. Now we have to discuss my role and my responsibilities as manager of the club.

'But we haven't had the opportunity to do that. Someone has information and clearly wants to create a mess, but I haven't discussed anything yet."

Worryingly for Liverpool followers, there are echoes of his final days at Valencia when he clashed with sporting director Jesus Garcia Pitarch over transfer policy and quit soon after to take over at Anfield.

For their part, Liverpool's heirarchy are continuing to try and find a solution after reiterating to Benitez that, should he identify a transfer target, they will do their utmost to find the necessary finance.

That still falls short of the conditions being sought by the 48-year old, who wants to spend his budget without any consultation and is also seeking a greater input in the running of the Academy after becoming alarmed at the shortage of youth team players graduating to the senior squad.

[Lucas21]

Excellent, excellent post. Well done.

[1021]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/16/rafael-benitez-new-contract-liverpool-rejected-george-gillett-tom-hicks

Remember that Al, back page of the echo "NO DEAL".

[Hazell]

Thanks mate.

[John C]

What's that got to do with the owners or Rafa?

The lad El C quoted was calling SG & Carra shithouses.

[Eeyore]

Remember that Al, back page of the echo "NO DEAL".

A Tony Barret exclusive, the length of the deal and the financial package were agreed but Benitez refused to sign it until the Liverpool manager had the same sort of control as the United, Arsenal and even Everton manager had enjoyed for years.

[Breitner]

Fortunately we have a better manager and won't be needing any other manager for fucking ages.

Agreed   

[TepidT2O]

Just for a second I forgot Roy Hodgson ever existed


Seems a lifetime ago doesnt it...

He would have bought Carlton Cole not sauréz and carroll

[Hij]

Can I just say I have always found Xerxes to be a bit of a knobhead, playing devil's advocate for no apparent reason very often and not really worth reading. If I risk a ban so be it, I normally only read these days.

[Alan_X]

think a couple of people need to take a step back and calm down a bit.

It sounds like a very exciting book and I will be getting a copy when it comes out.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any legal backlash yet. 

The lawyers will have been all over it.

[Walk on, walk on]

The lawyers will have been all over it.

Really hope this thread won't be locked. Everyone has been trying to keep their discussions reasonable. I agree we are in a much better place right now, but I also am a firm believer of learning from the past.

[TepidT2O]

Can I just say I have always found Xerxes to be a bit of a knobhead, playing devil's advocate for no apparent reason very often and not really worth reading. If I risk a ban so be it, I normally only read these days.

Do you know what?

He's a red, he loves Liverpool as much as the rest of us, but he has very different ideas and opinions to most of us... Deal with it.
He may be a pain to you, but he's one of us and I'd rather be with him than without him... much more lively the way it is 
Don't drive people away because they don't agree with you or they irk you.  He's not offensive, he's not a WUM, just enjoy the arguing.

[TepidT2O]

Can't wait to read the book btw

[SMD]

Really hope this thread won't be locked. Everyone has been trying to keep their discussions reasonable. I agree we are in a much better place right now, but I also am a firm believer of learning from the past.

LESSONS LEARNT

1. Use Google
2. Don't let Parry out except for children's parties
3. Knocking on Moores' door is much easier than protesting against Hicks and Gillett to effect change
4. Some people are full of shit and will do anything for a bit of celebrity attention
5. If a European Cup winning manager is unhappy, generally speaking there's a reason for it
6. Football players are idiots


If we needed this episode to teach us any of that then God help us all.