Author Topic: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...  (Read 96267 times)

Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #920 on: April 20, 2011, 03:52:34 pm »
This is the problem. So much of history has been rewritten into myth. A load of us who spent years on that Off The Pitch thread will remember Rafa at one stage got into bed with Hicks. Used to talk about happy email contact with him blah de blah. I said at the time that I thought it was a marriage made of convenience - a way of trying to extract a transfer budget from the fat cancer's wallet. Was it a mistake? Possibly. We'll never know. Possibly not. It's pointless to go back now and submit everyone's actions to the microscope, just as it's ridiculous to paint the story in terms of a shining messiah who fought our battle for us. Everyone made mistakes. I made the mistake of discussing and not doing enough. Took Roy and Leo to galvanise us. So why don't we draw a line under it and move on. We've got the most inspirational manager in the bloody league in charge now, and by the looks of it, decent and ambitious owners. As Kenny said, this football club is not going to look back. This football club has its eyes set on a red horizon.

Juan - totally agree - we always said we wanted to talk about the football, and frankly it's a relief to be able to do so. & having said that, I'm out of here.
Oi... Get back in here, you can't talk sense and then piss off :)

What's happened has happened, all I know is I can't wait for the summer and see what that brings.

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Offline chris.volante

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #921 on: April 20, 2011, 03:53:55 pm »
We were more than good enough to win it that year, which is fantastic, but hark back to Shanks1965's thread in the middle of that season. It was fair and reasoned comment then, and it remains fair and reasoned comment now.
Don't happen to have a link to this do you, Roy?

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #922 on: April 20, 2011, 03:55:39 pm »
Now this I take issue with. I think it was one of the main catalysts for people getting the cancers out.
They (or at least I) saw one of the only people willing to stand up to the cancers and I got behind it. It ultimately cost him his job.

Yes he highlighted the issues. It certainly showed he cared many lesser men would have fucked off somewhere else.
But for me what got rid of them was their own financial mess and then the fans stiring things up highlighting to the RBS and potential backers not to refinance. I guess what Im saying is, did the negative aspects of Rafa going to war out weight the positive's.
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Offline shelovesyou

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #923 on: April 20, 2011, 03:57:57 pm »
This is the problem. So much of history has been rewritten into myth. A load of us who spent years on that Off The Pitch thread will remember Rafa at one stage got into bed with Hicks. Used to talk about happy email contact with him blah de blah. I said at the time that I thought it was a marriage made of convenience - a way of trying to extract a transfer budget from the fat cancer's wallet. Was it a mistake? Possibly. We'll never know. Possibly not. It's pointless to go back now and submit everyone's actions to the microscope, just as it's ridiculous to paint the story in terms of a shining messiah who fought our battle for us. Everyone made mistakes. I made the mistake of discussing and not doing enough. Took Roy and Leo to galvanise us. So why don't we draw a line under it and move on. We've got the most inspirational manager in the bloody league in charge now, and by the looks of it, decent and ambitious owners. As Kenny said, this football club is not going to look back. This football club has its eyes set on a red horizon.

Juan - totally agree - we always said we wanted to talk about the football, and frankly it's a relief to be able to do so. & having said that, I'm out of here.

Spot on. And with that Im out of here. If you's lot wanna believe the accusations against me then fine but please read the posts before you make yer own mind up . Im happy to admit Im wrong if I am but Im being accused of things here that just are not true, hence my posts to try and prove that.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #924 on: April 20, 2011, 03:58:39 pm »
Yes he highlighted the issues. It certainly showed he cared many lesser men would have fucked off somewhere else.
But for me what got rid of them was their own financial mess and then the fans stiring things up highlighting to the RBS and potential backers not to refinance. I guess what Im saying is, did the negative aspects of Rafa going to war out weight the positive's.

Without Rafa highlighting it people wouldn't be any the wiser. They would just know "something" was wrong.
Rafa going to war and bringing everything to light was one of the reasons people knew how fucked we were and the potential of how fucked we could have become.

Tell me mate seriously , if Rafa had taken the keep quiet or even the Ferguson route of publicly backing the owners, where do you think we would be?

Offline Tentacles.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #925 on: April 20, 2011, 04:00:39 pm »
teri maa ki bhen ke lode, they speak HINDIIIIIII

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Offline horne

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #926 on: April 20, 2011, 04:02:56 pm »
shelovesyou has apologised...whats with the kicking...ffs....same with the ste g carra bashing..wtf?
look,consistantly events and campaigns were organised by a small persistant few....ideas were chucked about by others...all up ,
what turned out to be effective opposition to the yanks control of the club ,was only acted upon by a very small minority of our total support.
there are millions out there who didnt get behind the lads and thats disapointing.out of all of them,one come forward and apologised.
That takes balls and for all the negative ball kickers out there,i bet yer if it happened again,sheloves you would be in the trenches with us...give a bit of credit were credit is due...ease off heh...non of us are perfect...hes a red isnt he?
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Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #927 on: April 20, 2011, 04:04:27 pm »
Tell me mate seriously , if Rafa had taken the keep quiet or even the Ferguson route of publicly backing the owners, where do you think we would be?
Probably up shit creek with a paddle the size of Tom's jowls.



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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #928 on: April 20, 2011, 04:10:01 pm »
Probably up shit creek with a paddle the size of Tom's jowls.

Or maybe as "big" as the "summer" purported by 'I-can't-see-my-summer-cos-my-belly-gets-in-the-way' hicks.
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Offline No666

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #929 on: April 20, 2011, 04:12:28 pm »
I'm lured back, Andy. But this will be my last word on the subject -
remember when Reina and Torres spoke out, some of us were wondering if that affected morale (the perception gets into the players' minds that they need bolstering, that they're not good enough as a squad). It was a valid question. And in the end the dire results were a prime factor in losing Rafa his job. (Had he finished in the top four he'd have been Purslow proof, that's for sure.)
So we can go round and round in circles on this. Who did what? In retrospect, was it right? Was it 70% right and 30% wrong? etc etc to infinity.
End of the day - it's history and the great thing about it is - it's history that's not (I believe) going to be repeated, so there's no point dissecting it and trying to learn lessons from it. Hicks and Gillett were two giant warped one-offs.
So let's enjoy the footie.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #930 on: April 20, 2011, 04:12:29 pm »
I'm sure John Henry will read it for the PR lesson if for nothing else. Even if he was a LBO merchant who wanted to asset strip the club - which all evidence suggests he's nowhere near - he'd do well to read this just so he could keep his head down a bit. FSG come across as very slick in a PR sense. The other lot were... less so.

For me  the Hicks and Gillet were a bit like Microsoft people with zero PR skills and a basic contempt for their consumers. FSG are more like Apple they still screw every last cent out of their consumers but the flawless PR and feel good factor means their consumers hand over their hard earned with a smile on their face and eulogise about the company.

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Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #931 on: April 20, 2011, 04:14:09 pm »
I wouldn't say it's laughable at all - just an opinion. We do too much of this in relation to Rafa on RAWK, to the extent that debate loses all semblance of balance. I always felt we should embrace those we admire for their strengths as well as their flaws, and there's very little doubt Rafa had, and continues to have, his flaws.

He does have flaws Royendo agreed, but then again so does Kenny Dalglish until he wins something, or will he be exempt if ( touch wood im wrong here! ) if we win nothing for the next few years, taking into account we have a 25million and 35million pound striking force?, you could raise question marks on Shanks during his barren spell ...looks like Mourinhio finally has flaws as well, if Real come in 2nd as it looks likely this season ( bless )....or does Mourinhio winning titles with title winning teams, who like Chelsea and Inter ( well they did buy him Pandev/Milito and Eto ) highlight his strengths or the clubs strenghths?  or there support for the manager financially?

The issue for me has never been criticising Rafa, its the way Rafa gets singled out for criticism above all other managers, as well as the continuing suggestion that Rafa's flaws stopped us winning the title ( as it it was in the bag and he only dropped it and let the title run away ) because he didnt do that IMO, he took us as close as we have been since we won the title last and we lost out to a Man U side which had to get 90 pts plus on the table to win it, only the 2nd time they have achieved 90pts total under Whiskey face - for me that changes perpsective on what we actually achieved ......again all IMO....

I rate Rafa on what he achieved, under the circumstances he ended up in and for the man and manager he is. Not many managers in Europe/maybe the world have a CV like his.....his flaws I would suggest are not the reason he has that CV.....

I know its all same o same o, but if you post opinion then expect comment, as SMD acknowledges same debate and same points being highlighted.....off to find rope/petrol and a lighter ....




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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #932 on: April 20, 2011, 04:17:07 pm »
End of the day - it's history and the great thing about it is - it's history that's not (I believe) going to be repeated, so there's no point dissecting it and trying to learn lessons from it. Hicks and Gillett were two giant warped one-offs.

Mate, I understand the optimism because I myself can't help by feel we're at the edge of breaking through with the new owners and Kenny in charge.

But really, its dangerous to dismiss the need to learn from this episode. One must consider that things like these are happening elsewhere (famously the mancs) and we're not just a victim of a rare occurrence. Bitten once, shame on them. Bitten twice? Shame on us.

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Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #933 on: April 20, 2011, 04:21:30 pm »
I'm lured back, Andy. But this will be my last word on the subject -
remember when Reina and Torres spoke out, some of us were wondering if that affected morale (the perception gets into the players' minds that they need bolstering, that they're not good enough as a squad). It was a valid question. And in the end the dire results were a prime factor in losing Rafa his job. (Had he finished in the top four he'd have been Purslow proof, that's for sure.)
So we can go round and round in circles on this. Who did what? In retrospect, was it right? Was it 70% right and 30% wrong? etc etc to infinity.
End of the day - it's history and the great thing about it is - it's history that's not (I believe) going to be repeated, so there's no point dissecting it and trying to learn lessons from it. Hicks and Gillett were two giant warped one-offs.
So let's enjoy the footie.
I agree mate, time to look forwards and not back. The future's bright again and the reds are coming back up the hill. I can understand people wanting to be vigilant, I'm all for that, but constantly dragging up the past, a dark past at that and sticking it under a microscope needs to stop.

Mistakes were made, but we overcame them and got our club back, let's just enjoy that.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #934 on: April 20, 2011, 04:23:35 pm »
Without Rafa highlighting it people wouldn't be any the wiser. They would just know "something" was wrong.
Rafa going to war and bringing everything to light was one of the reasons people knew how fucked we were and the potential of how fucked we could have become.

Tell me mate seriously , if Rafa had taken the keep quiet or even the Ferguson route of publicly backing the owners, where do you think we would be?


Honestly, I dont know, noone does including you, we can have opinions of course, doesn#t make us correct though.
As soon as it became public knowledge of it being a leveraged buy out and the debt repayments were killing us there would have been opposition to the 2 thieves. Like I said their own financial mess with RBS is the thing that got rid of them.
All the Green & Gold wankers in the world wont get rid of the glazers till either they need or want to sell.
Our cancers needed to re-finance or sell, re-finance was blocked, so they sold.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #935 on: April 20, 2011, 04:29:42 pm »
Don't happen to have a link to this do you, Roy?

Here you go mate - a great poster Shanks1965 IMO. He makes you think.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235684.0

Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #936 on: April 20, 2011, 04:32:25 pm »
Honestly, I dont know, noone does including you, we can have opinions of course, doesn#t make us correct though.
As soon as it became public knowledge of it being a leveraged buy out and the debt repayments were killing us there would have been opposition to the 2 thieves. Like I said their own financial mess with RBS is the thing that got rid of them.
All the Green & Gold wankers in the world wont get rid of the glazers till either they need or want to sell.
Our cancers needed to re-finance or sell, re-finance was blocked, so they sold.

Hold on, refinance was blocked because the Board ( Purslow/Brougton/Ayres ) went against H&G, with Purslow playing his back stabbing card after being told he would be fired and Broughton forcing the sale to FSG based on it was the best deal on the table with RBS ( who had put him in charge ) supporting him, which forced the court case which forced the owners out.....

So was it financial, or a power play that got them out....IMO the facts or reported events suggest it was the power play, if H&G has won the power play, got Purslow fired, got the majority vote and told FSG to f off, would RBS have pulled the loan and left us up the swanny? or would they have refinanced? or would H&G have played their other card and got Blackstone (?) to provide alternative finance......

Either way, why are we rewriting history....?

Offline SMD

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #937 on: April 20, 2011, 04:57:23 pm »
I wouldn't say it's laughable at all - just an opinion. We do too much of this in relation to Rafa on RAWK, to the extent that debate loses all semblance of balance. I always felt we should embrace those we admire for their strengths as well as their flaws, and there's very little doubt Rafa had, and continues to have, his flaws.

I meant dragging the Rafa debate into this thread when it's clearly about the two tumours and not Rafa's performance.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #938 on: April 20, 2011, 04:58:21 pm »
This is the problem. So much of history has been rewritten into myth. A load of us who spent years on that Off The Pitch thread will remember Rafa at one stage got into bed with Hicks. Used to talk about happy email contact with him blah de blah. I said at the time that I thought it was a marriage made of convenience - a way of trying to extract a transfer budget from the fat cancer's wallet. Was it a mistake? Possibly. We'll never know. Possibly not. It's pointless to go back now and submit everyone's actions to the microscope, just as it's ridiculous to paint the story in terms of a shining messiah who fought our battle for us. Everyone made mistakes. I made the mistake of discussing and not doing enough. Took Roy and Leo to galvanise us. So why don't we draw a line under it and move on. We've got the most inspirational manager in the bloody league in charge now, and by the looks of it, decent and ambitious owners. As Kenny said, this football club is not going to look back. This football club has its eyes set on a red horizon.

An excellent post.

The demonising of Carra and Gerrard and the sanctification of Rafa got out of hand before, and it doesn't take much to reignite it. I well recall Rafa asking the protests to be toned down during our second finish prior to his accepting a new lucrative contract. Rafa has only ever asked to be judged as a football manager, and a very good one he is, Carra and Gerrard as players, both already have legendary status.

The Club always will endure, and is in better shape now in my opinion than at any time since Hillsborough. New challenges face us now. Will FSG retain Kenny, invest net in the squad sufficient to get us back in the top four, and redevelop Anfield/ relocate us to give us a stadium fit to compete financially at the top table of world football? Those are the big questions now. The rest is history.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #939 on: April 20, 2011, 04:59:22 pm »
I well recall Rafa asking the protests to be toned down during our second finish prior to his accepting a new lucrative contract.

This is controversial. Any particular reference?
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Offline RedRush

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #940 on: April 20, 2011, 05:00:49 pm »
I well recall Rafa asking the protests to be toned down during our second finish prior to his accepting a new lucrative contract.

Don't recall this. Proof?

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #941 on: April 20, 2011, 05:08:22 pm »
Don't recall this. Proof?
Check the cuttings when SOS were ramping up the protests on the title run-in.
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Offline RedRush

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #942 on: April 20, 2011, 05:09:04 pm »
Here you go mate - a great poster Shanks1965 IMO. He makes you think.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235684.0

I remember that thread and particularly enjoyed shanklyboy's responses in it. Now that was one great poster.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #943 on: April 20, 2011, 05:09:57 pm »
I meant dragging the Rafa debate into this thread when it's clearly about the two tumours and not Rafa's performance.

Kenny’s Jacket said , and I quote:

“Rafa loved and fought for the club in very bad circumstance's”
 
“Overall his transfer were good”

“In response to the criticism of SG & JC not speaking out. Both guys love this club and did what they thought was best. You cant condem them for that”

“Rafa, thanks for you help in fighting to keep the club alive, and for lovig the club as much as you do, for understanding the fans, the club and the city. YNWA”

I don’t think that there is anything particularly “laughable” about that. Some posters on here make the Taleban look like the founding fathers of Greek Democracy when it comes to myopic intolerance.
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Offline RedRush

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #944 on: April 20, 2011, 05:12:55 pm »
Check the cuttings when SOS were ramping up the protests on the title run-in.

Any particular quotes from the man himself?

Offline Chakan

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #945 on: April 20, 2011, 05:14:37 pm »
Check the cuttings when SOS were ramping up the protests on the title run-in.

Please provide a link to this.

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #946 on: April 20, 2011, 05:18:22 pm »
Please provide a link to this.
Wasn't it when Rafa met with SOS and he (supposedly) asked them to tone it down? so i doubt you'll actually find some quotes from Rafa telling Liverpool fans not to protest.

Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #947 on: April 20, 2011, 05:21:12 pm »
Please provide a link to this.
I wouldn't hold your breath mate, still waiting for a reply off him to what he meant earlier today when he said he thinks the role the fans played is over stated. Clearly John Henry and Tom Hicks both think differently, probably won't see him n this thread for a few pages now till the dust settles a bit on this, par for the course with him mate.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #948 on: April 20, 2011, 05:22:51 pm »
Wasn't it when Rafa met with SOS and he (supposedly) asked them to tone it down? so i doubt you'll actually find some quotes from Rafa telling Liverpool fans not to protest.

I don't know, hence I asked for a link.
Possibly Graham Smith could provide one then?

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #949 on: April 20, 2011, 05:23:55 pm »
Check the cuttings when SOS were ramping up the protests on the title run-in.

He actually answered a question about the protests saying they didn't affect the players as they were outside the ground.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #950 on: April 20, 2011, 05:24:42 pm »
I wouldn't hold your breath mate, still waiting for a reply off him to what he meant earlier today when he said he thinks the role the fans played is over stated. Clearly John Henry and Tom Hicks both think differently, probably won't see him n this thread for a few pages now till the dust settles a bit on this, par for the course with him mate.

No surprises, really. Modus operandi.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #951 on: April 20, 2011, 05:25:05 pm »
He actually answered a question about the protests saying they didn't affect the players as they were outside the ground.

Thanks GS. Bullshit busted, again.
Liverpool don't turn up against shit teams so Wenger picks the shittest line up possible.
The man is a genius!

Offline Ambrosia

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #952 on: April 20, 2011, 05:25:11 pm »
I don't know, hence I asked for a link.
Possibly Graham Smith could provide one then?
Yeah, i don't remember that rumour ever being confirmed by SOS. In fact, i believe it originated from the Anti Rafa forum the Liverpoolway. So i guess we should take it with a pinch of salt.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #953 on: April 20, 2011, 05:25:23 pm »
He actually answered a question about the protests saying they didn't affect the players as they were outside the ground.

Thanks Graham.
Another lie of xerxes Debunked.

Although I am sure in about 4-5 months he will bring it up as fact again.

Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #954 on: April 20, 2011, 05:26:17 pm »
He actually answered a question about the protests saying they didn't affect the players as they were outside the ground.
That's fucked that then :)
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #955 on: April 20, 2011, 05:27:26 pm »
That's fucked that then :)

I don't recall any toning down requests to either us or generally.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #956 on: April 20, 2011, 05:28:15 pm »
An excellent post.

The demonising of Rafa and the sanctification of Carra and Gerrard got out of hand before, and it doesn't take much to reignite it.

Thought I'd correct your statement to a possibly more balanced one  8)
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Offline rafa4eva

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #957 on: April 20, 2011, 05:32:07 pm »
An excellent post.

The demonising of Carra and Gerrard and the sanctification of Rafa got out of hand before, and it doesn't take much to reignite it. I well recall Rafa asking the protests to be toned down during our second finish prior to his accepting a new lucrative contract. Rafa has only ever asked to be judged as a football manager, and a very good one he is, Carra and Gerrard as players, both already have legendary status.

The Club always will endure, and is in better shape now in my opinion than at any time since Hillsborough. New challenges face us now. Will FSG retain Kenny, invest net in the squad sufficient to get us back in the top four, and redevelop Anfield/ relocate us to give us a stadium fit to compete financially at the top table of world football? Those are the big questions now. The rest is history.

Xerxes1, quick question, do you seriously think that Carra or Gerrard have got anywhere near the same level of criticism/or IMO borderline abuse compared to Rafa, to justify your suggestion that they were demonised whilst Rafa was sanctified? IMO again, no way near.....theres a minority ( was a majority )IMO who supported/still support Rafa ( including me ) whilst theres a minority who have a pop at Gerrard/Carra again IMO......

What I do agree with you is that we need to focus on the future, not sure I agree with you about us being in the best shape since Hillisborough, but lets hope things get better for us, the fact that I have waited all my life for LFC to spend 30mill plus on a player has been finally realised, to be honest I am still struggling to get my head around the fact that 35mill was spent on Carroll....but fingers crossed he grows ala Torres...well before he left us.....and stopped scoring.......ah well.....


Offline SmithdownAndy

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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #958 on: April 20, 2011, 05:32:43 pm »
I don't recall any toning down requests to either us or generally.
Can't say I ever remember any myself, well not from Rafa anyway.
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Re: Epic Swindle - the Judgement...
« Reply #959 on: April 20, 2011, 05:34:09 pm »
Can't say I ever remember any myself, well not from Rafa anyway.

Only 1 remember saying anything about the protests was Roy.