Author Topic: Wikileaks:  (Read 131119 times)

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #440 on: January 9, 2011, 06:58:17 am »
Are the Wikileaks people actually breaking any U.S laws? I doubt it

Manning definitely has (the soldier who provided a lot of the Iraq and Afghan stuff from recently) and has been amusingly whining about how badly he's being treated in military prison while waiting for trial.

Wikileaks complaining about someone trying to access private data is pretty funny too...
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #441 on: January 9, 2011, 07:42:09 pm »
Wikileaks complaining about someone trying to access private data is pretty funny too...

That's true. Bear in mind, though, that Wikileaks don't access any data. They simply publish stuff other people give them.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #442 on: January 10, 2011, 12:32:23 am »
also private companies and citizens are supposed to be, well, private, and public information is supposed to be, well, public.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #443 on: January 10, 2011, 08:15:06 am »
Are the Wikileaks people actually breaking any U.S laws? I doubt it

aren't they outside the jurisdiction of the US? 

I remember there were many American political commentators/ex politicans saying they should try and charge the Australian Assange for Treason..Idiots.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #444 on: January 10, 2011, 08:24:49 am »
That's true. Bear in mind, though, that Wikileaks don't access any data. They simply publish stuff other people give them.

Technically neither will the US Government, they'll just be reading the data that Twitter/Facebook etc give them ;)
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #445 on: January 10, 2011, 11:10:39 am »
Shut down the bastards, no sympathy for them whatsoever.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #446 on: January 10, 2011, 11:11:49 am »
I don't accept the premise of the question. The question is, do governments get to keep shit secret from us.

Yes.
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Offline Phil M

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #447 on: January 10, 2011, 03:37:22 pm »
Shut down the bastards, no sympathy for them whatsoever.

But you have sympathy for governments / organisations perpetrating illegal acts worldwide under our noses?
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #448 on: January 10, 2011, 03:45:08 pm »

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #449 on: January 10, 2011, 05:55:40 pm »
Why?

Because people's lives are at stake.

But you have sympathy for governments / organisations perpetrating illegal acts worldwide under our noses?

I don't know the big picture, and even with this website you're kidding yourself if you think it provides the whole picture. There may come a day when every action of every government is free and open to the public, but human nature itself has to change before that happens.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #450 on: January 10, 2011, 07:39:48 pm »
Manning definitely has (the soldier who provided a lot of the Iraq and Afghan stuff from recently) and has been amusingly whining about how badly he's being treated in military prison while waiting for trial.

Wikileaks complaining about someone trying to access private data is pretty funny too...

 Bradley Manning tried to do his country a favour. Maybe he caused red faces in government but citizens should be grateful - instead, they guzzle up media bile about him and actually want him executed. It's fucking shameful.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #451 on: January 10, 2011, 07:47:33 pm »
Bradley Manning tried to do his country a favour. Maybe he caused red faces in government but citizens should be grateful - instead, they guzzle up media bile about him and actually want him executed. It's fucking shameful.

Manning broke the law and the oath that he swore. He put lives at risk and he damaged the country that he was supposed to defend. Fuck the little twat, he deserves everything he's got coming to him.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #452 on: January 10, 2011, 09:15:56 pm »
Because people's lives are at stake.

That applies either way. People's lives can be at stake because of what governments cover up just as much as what Wikileaks release. You presume that if governments want to keep things secret, it's because they have the people's interests at heart. Let me ask you something. If the government in question is led by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, do you still feel the same?

Offline JoeTwerp

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #453 on: January 10, 2011, 10:09:10 pm »
That applies either way. People's lives can be at stake because of what governments cover up just as much as what Wikileaks release. You presume that if governments want to keep things secret, it's because they have the people's interests at heart. Let me ask you something. If the government in question is led by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, do you still feel the same?

bingo.  Except that I don't see why it wouldn't also apply if the government in question was led by Obama, Carter, Reagan, Mother Theresea, Ghandi, etc.  I guess its just more obviously bad with Bush and co.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #454 on: January 11, 2011, 01:12:09 am »
Manning broke the law and the oath that he swore. He put lives at risk and he damaged the country that he was supposed to defend. Fuck the little twat, he deserves everything he's got coming to him.

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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #455 on: January 11, 2011, 06:20:26 am »

I don't think I mentioned anything about 'freedom', did I? He promised to defend his country and instead he's damaged it. He's put people's lives at risk and he's a common criminal. Fuck him.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #456 on: January 11, 2011, 06:28:14 am »
That applies either way. People's lives can be at stake because of what governments cover up just as much as what Wikileaks release. You presume that if governments want to keep things secret, it's because they have the people's interests at heart. Let me ask you something. If the government in question is led by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, do you still feel the same?

That's why we have checks and balances, Freedom of Information among others. Well not where I live, but elsewhere. What I don't like is some hacker with delusions of grandeur sowing chaos while paying lip-service to the ideal of freedom.

What kind of info did the Wikileaks reveal? Pretty much what we knew all along. No big government conspiracies, no shining beacon of truth that would have made it somewhat worthwhile. Just political bitching among diplomats, and the lives of good men now put in danger. What was the point?

Assange and the knuckledraggers at Anonymous are more like the kid who gets his hand on a stick of dynamite than Woodward and Bernstein.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 06:43:36 am by Finn Solomon »
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #457 on: January 11, 2011, 06:29:12 am »
Bradley Manning tried to do his country a favour. Maybe he caused red faces in government but citizens should be grateful - instead, they guzzle up media bile about him and actually want him executed. It's fucking shameful.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #458 on: January 11, 2011, 08:25:35 am »
Bradley Manning tried to do his country a favour. Maybe he caused red faces in government but citizens should be grateful - instead, they guzzle up media bile about him and actually want him executed. It's fucking shameful.

What exactly has Manning done to improve my life as a US citizen?
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #459 on: January 11, 2011, 05:16:18 pm »
WikiLeaks: Julian Assange 'faces execution or Guantánamo detention'

Skeleton argument outlined by Australian's defence team claims he could face rendition to US if extradited to Sweden

    * Esther Addley
    * guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 11 January 2011 14.21 GMT
 
Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, could be at "real risk" of the death penalty or detention in Guantánamo Bay if he is extradited to Sweden on accusations of rape and sexual assault, his lawyers claim.

In a skeleton summary of their defence against attempts by the Swedish director of public prosecutions to extradite him, released today, Assange's legal team argue that there is a similar likelihood that the US would subsequently seek his extradition "and/or illegal rendition", "where there will be a real risk of him being detained at Guantánamo Bay or elsewhere".

"Indeed, if Mr Assange were rendered to the USA, without assurances that the death penalty would not be carried out, there is a real risk that he could be made subject to the death penalty. It is well known that prominent figures have implied, if not stated outright, that Mr Assange should be executed."

The 35-page skeleton argument was released by Mark Stephens, Assange's lawyer, following a brief review hearing this morning at Belmarsh magistrates court.

The WikiLeaks founder, who is on conditional bail while his extradition case is being considered, appeared for no more than 15 minutes in the dock, while supporters including Jemima Khan and Bianca Jagger looked on and waved support from the public gallery.

He later emerged to give a brief statement to a large number of reporters, saying: "Our work with WikiLeaks continues unabated. We are stepping up our publications for matters relating to Cablegate and other materials.

"These will shortly be available through our newspaper partners around the world – big and small newspapers and human rights organisations."

The skeleton argument outlines seven points on which Assange's lawyers will contest his extradition, which was sought by the Swedish DPP, Marianne Ny, following accusations from two women that he had sexually assaulted them in separate incidents in August.

One accusation, that Assange had sex with one of the women while she was asleep, would amount to rape under Swedish law if proven. Both women had previously had consenting sex with Assange.

The other points of argument include:

• That the European arrest warrant (EAW) is not valid, because Ny is not the authorised issuing authority, and it has been sought for an improper purpose – ie "simply in order to question him and without having yet reached a decision on whether or not to prosecute him". This, they argue, would be in contravention of a well-established principle "that mere suspicion should not found a request for extradition".

• That there has been "abuse of process" as Assange has not had full disclosure of all documents relating to the case, in particular text messages sent by one of the women, in which she allegedly said she was "half asleep" (ie not fully asleep) at the time they had sex, and messages between the two women in which they allegedly spoke of "revenge".

• That the "conduct" of the Swedish prosecutor amounts to abuse of process. Assange's lawyers cite the fact that the rape allegations were initially dismissed and then reopened by a second prosecutor, that the prosecutor has refused Assange's offers of interview, and that it has not made documents available to Assange in English. They also cite the leak of part of the prosecution case to the Guardian as "a breach of Mr Assange's fair trial and privacy rights".

• That the alleged offences would not be considered crimes in the UK, and therefore, they argue, an EAW between the two countries would not be valid.

• That the extradition attempt is politically motivated, and that his trial would be prejudiced because of his political opinions or because, they argue, of his gender.

Assange's team will make their case on 7 and 8 February, when Assange will return to court for the full extradition hearing. The case for his extradition is being argued by the Crown Prosecution Service on behalf of the Swedish prosecutor; the full prosecution case is not expected to be released before that date.

District Judge Nicholas Evans agreed at this morning's hearing to ease the terms of his bail conditions, which require Assange to wear an electronic tag and report daily to a police station close to the stately home on the Suffolk/Norfolk border where he is staying. For the nights of 6 and 7 February Assange will be permitted to stay in London.

source

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #460 on: January 11, 2011, 05:19:02 pm »
Serious leaps of logic there. If he's extradited, if he's put in Guantanamo and if he's placed under the death penalty. Still it's a good scaremongering tactic by his defence lawyers.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #461 on: January 11, 2011, 05:21:31 pm »
Serious leaps of logic there. If he's extradited, if he's put in Guantanamo and if he's placed under the death penalty. Still it's a good scaremongering tactic by his defence lawyers.

Not really. His extradition is being sought, so that's obviously legit. In fact, that's what they're arguing against. They are perfectly entitled to speculate as to the risks he faces if he is extradited and they are quite right to bring up the fact that senior, influential American figures have called for his execution.

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #462 on: January 11, 2011, 05:23:10 pm »
Senior American figures do that all the time, it's not likely to happen. I'll be watching to see how this turns out with interest.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #463 on: January 11, 2011, 05:24:47 pm »
Senior American figures do that all the time, it's not likely to happen.

Call for the execution of foreign journalists? Really?

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #464 on: January 11, 2011, 05:25:47 pm »
Call for the execution of foreign journalists? Really?

I meant overreact and make stupid statements to a perceived foreign threat.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #465 on: January 11, 2011, 05:27:14 pm »
I meant overreact and make stupid statements to a perceived foreign threat.

Ah, right. Yeah, no argument there.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #466 on: January 11, 2011, 05:34:16 pm »
So where are we now? is he still being charged with the paltry not really rape, but you should have used a condom case? where the max sentance is a small fine? if so, how can his rights be so limited, and how can a possible extradition exist? (he is not guilty of crimes on the US mainland)

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #467 on: January 11, 2011, 05:37:38 pm »
So where are we now? is he still being charged with the paltry not really rape, but you should have used a condom case? where the max sentance is a small fine? if so, how can his rights be so limited, and how can a possible extradition exist? (he is not guilty of crimes on the US mainland)

If he is extradited to Sweden, his lawyers say he runs the risk of rendition to the US. To be fair, it's not like they haven't done it before...

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #468 on: January 11, 2011, 05:39:18 pm »
If he is extradited to Sweden, his lawyers say he runs the risk of rendition to the US. To be fair, it's not like they haven't done it before...
Yea, i understand that.. but don't they not have any grounds for extraditing him?

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #469 on: January 11, 2011, 05:40:29 pm »
(he is not guilty of crimes on the US mainland)

You don't need to be physically in the country to be guilty of crimes there. And if the Yanks really want to push it then he could be guilty of espionage (since he's been receiving security marked Government documents). No idea what the tariff for that is over there though.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #470 on: January 11, 2011, 06:10:52 pm »
Death is probably the tariff, they'll probably link him somehow to the death of someone, somewhere, due to a wikileak.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #471 on: January 11, 2011, 11:02:09 pm »
From a quick sniff, it can go as high as execution but rarely does.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #472 on: January 13, 2011, 10:00:40 am »
WikiLeaks: Julian Assange claims to have Rupert Murdoch 'insurance files'
Founder claims WikiLeaks has more than 500 US diplomatic cables on one broadcasting organisation
Josh Halliday

Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, claimed today he was in possession of "insurance" files on Rupert Murdoch and his global media company, News Corporation.  Assange also claimed that WikiLeaks holds more than 500 confidential US diplomatic cables on one broadcasting organisation.

Speaking to journalist John Pilger for an interview to be published tomorrow in the latest edition of the New Statesman, Assange said: "There are 504 US embassy cables on one broadcasting organisation and there are cables on Murdoch and News Corp."

Assange refers to these specific cables as "insurance files" that will be released "if something happens to me or to WikiLeaks".

The Guardian has published stories based on more than 700 of the cables and has access to all 250,000.

He said yesterday that the whistleblowers' site would "shortly" continue publishing cables stories which would "speak more of the same truth to power".

WikiLeaks began publishing the leaked cables through international media partners including the Guardian, part of the group that publishes MediaGuardian.co.uk, in late November.  Their release slowed over Christmas as the partner media organisations, which supplied redacted versions of the documents to WikiLeaks, scaled back their cable operations.    The 39-year-old Australian is currently fighting extradition from the UK to Sweden on accusations of rape and sexual assault. Pilger, who counts Assange as a personal friend, last month offered to stand £20,000 in surety to secure the whistleblower's bail.  Attempts by the US to take legal action against Assange should worry the mainstream media, he said.

"I think what's emerging in the mainstream media is the awareness that if I can be indicted, other journalists can, too," he added.

"Even the New York Times is worried. This used not to be the case. If a whistleblower was prosecuted, publishers and reporters were protected by the first amendment, which journalists took for granted. That's being lost."

Despite pressure from the US on private companies to severe ties with WikiLeaks, Assange insisted that China is the real "technological enemy" of the site.  China has deployed "aggressive and sophisticated" interception technology to stop details of the diplomatic dispatches reaching its citizens, he said, adding that there were now "all sorts of ways" Chinese users could access the controversial material.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/12/wikileaks-rupert-murdoch

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #473 on: January 13, 2011, 12:50:44 pm »
WikiLeaks: Julian Assange claims to have Rupert Murdoch 'insurance files'
Founder claims WikiLeaks has more than 500 US diplomatic cables on one broadcasting organisation
Josh Halliday

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/12/wikileaks-rupert-murdoch

Just read that now - obviously the first thing that's going to get thrown about is Assanges contradiction in practise to his principles. Is it acceptable to keep information private for the purpose of self gain; is this not what he is trying to stop?

I understand it is for his insurance and a bargaining card but he/wikileaks will surely lose credibility in the long run. On the other hand, it may indicate more damning stuff to come.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #474 on: January 13, 2011, 12:59:44 pm »
Just read that now - obviously the first thing that's going to get thrown about is Assanges contradiction in practise to his principles. Is it acceptable to keep information private for the purpose of self gain; is this not what he is trying to stop?

I had that thought too, but I suppose it is justifiable to use the information received in order to protect the organisation (Wikileaks) which disseminates the information.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #475 on: January 13, 2011, 01:42:10 pm »
the guardian has access to all the files? i thought they were leaked on a regular basis by wikileaks
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Offline Phil M

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #476 on: January 13, 2011, 01:46:07 pm »
On that documentary Conman posted a few pages back, one of the co-founders of wikileaks, some german fella
who had split from Assange said he was busy establishing his own 'leak' type of resource for whistleblowers and they
were encouraging others to do so aswell. So it seems Wikileaks is not the only type of secure internet based network out there
and if others were championed as much as the former then it would become harder to police and clamp down on.

Perhaps it's a poor analogy but I'm thinking of how Napster came to prominence and was subsequently closed after becoming
the site to download from. Now you have endless p2p and illegal filesharing sites and communities out there.
They can't track them all because it is such big business, once one closes another one opens. I believe that is what Assange
and his colleagues hope for, a worldwide network of such sites which is virtually unstoppable/untraceable.
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #477 on: January 16, 2011, 11:57:13 pm »

What kind of info did the Wikileaks reveal? Pretty much what we knew all along. No big government conspiracies, no shining beacon of truth that would have made it somewhat worthwhile. Just political bitching among diplomats, and the lives of good men now put in danger. What was the point?
The Afghan and Iraq war logs clearly showed war crimes committed by coalition forces, crimes that had been covered up.
To me that makes it all worthwhile. With out information's there can be no improvements.

Offline Refo

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #478 on: January 17, 2011, 12:08:36 am »
The Afghan and Iraq war logs clearly showed war crimes committed by coalition forces, crimes that had been covered up.
To me that makes it all worthwhile. With out information's there can be no improvements.

Other than collateral murder, which war crimes are you talking about?
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Offline Sindri

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #479 on: January 17, 2011, 02:15:55 am »
Other than collateral murder, which war crimes are you talking about?
That wasn't enough?

Illegal detention of people.
Kidnapping and transport of suspected enemy "combatants"
Torture of prisoners.

Granted most of those where known but the war logs at least showed the extend of it.