Author Topic: Wikileaks:  (Read 131083 times)

Offline classycarra

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #520 on: March 1, 2011, 01:32:00 pm »
It kind of depends on whether you think he's going to get a fair trial. A trial could be both a tool against the misuse of power, or a misuse of power in itself. I think in this case his "power", regardless of his rise, is much smaller than the power of Swedish or British courts, not to mention some of his other enemies.
i dont see how so many are opposed to assange facing trial in sweden. it's not like he's been sent to somalia

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #521 on: March 1, 2011, 01:53:09 pm »
i dont see how so many are opposed to assange facing trial in sweden. it's not like he's been sent to somalia

Not like Sweden has co-operated in rendition of suspects by the US before....oh, wait. They have.

Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #522 on: March 1, 2011, 02:32:32 pm »
surely if you opposed the misuse of power across the globe you would be happy that he is facing trial, and hasn't escaped scrutiny due to his rise to power (not in the sovereign sense)

Given the facts surrounding this case the one thing that screams out is why is he being hounded.

His rise to power is based on him being the front man of an organisation which is at the centre of the most extensive series of whistle blowing in history, that answers my own question.
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #523 on: March 1, 2011, 02:37:50 pm »
Not like Sweden has co-operated in rendition of suspects by the US before....oh, wait. They have.

So Assange has every right to fear for his safety. Its amazing, again given the facts why the Australian Government has done nothing to ensure due process from the start. I watched the American ambassador to the UK on Andrew Mar last Sunday, he looked very confident when he said he was comfortable that British justice would make the right decision
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #524 on: March 1, 2011, 02:39:13 pm »
It kind of depends on whether you think he's going to get a fair trial. A trial could be both a tool against the misuse of power, or a misuse of power in itself. I think in this case his "power", regardless of his rise, is much smaller than the power of Swedish or British courts, not to mention some of his other enemies.

Are you saying Assange on behalf of WikiLeaks abuses his power. If so How so
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Offline BoRed

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #525 on: March 1, 2011, 02:47:26 pm »
Are you saying Assange on behalf of WikiLeaks abuses his power. If so How so

Wendy, I've really enjoyed your recent posts, especially on the protest thread, but you really need to read more carefully ;).

Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #526 on: March 1, 2011, 03:14:10 pm »
Wendy, I've really enjoyed your recent posts, especially on the protest thread, but you really need to read more carefully ;).

No honestly I am asking a genuine question, I am getting a bit of flack from others for not being clear myself so its important I know clearly what is being said.
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Offline BoRed

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #527 on: March 1, 2011, 03:42:07 pm »
No honestly I am asking a genuine question, I am getting a bit of flack from others for not being clear myself so its important I know clearly what is being said.

OK then, the answer to your question is no.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #528 on: March 1, 2011, 04:24:30 pm »
Given the facts surrounding this case the one thing that screams out is why is he being hounded.

What are the facts? The only facts that I'm aware of are that there has been an allegation of some kind of sexual crime made by two women against him and that a court in the UK has said that he should be extradited to Sweden to answer those claims in a court of law there. Surely any other facts will be revealed in the court in front of the judge and jury?

Now as far as I'm aware Sweden's justice system isn't seen as particularly unfair and I'm not aware of any reason why he shouldn't receive a fair trial there for the crimes that he's alleged to have committed. If this was some secret plot by the US to have him 'rendered' to them, why not just apply for his extradition from the UK? The crimes that the US allege against him (presumably related to espionage against the US Government) would certainly be enough to have at least a claim on him without going to all the trouble of getting some Swedish bird to make false accusations, going through the extradition process from the UK to Sweden, going through a show trial in Sweden and so on.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #529 on: March 1, 2011, 04:52:55 pm »
Now as far as I'm aware Sweden's justice system isn't seen as particularly unfair and I'm not aware of any reason why he shouldn't receive a fair trial there for the crimes that he's alleged to have committed. If this was some secret plot by the US to have him 'rendered' to them, why not just apply for his extradition from the UK? The crimes that the US allege against him (presumably related to espionage against the US Government) would certainly be enough to have at least a claim on him without going to all the trouble of getting some Swedish bird to make false accusations, going through the extradition process from the UK to Sweden, going through a show trial in Sweden and so on.

Loth as I am to side with Wendy, I don't agree with that line of reasoning. The reason the US hasn't applied for extradition to the US from the UK is because they haven't charged him with any crime. Even with the hilariously lop sided extradition arrangement the UK has with the US, they still have to have some sort of case against him and so far all they have is intellectually challenged politicians calling for him to be executed.

To be fair, I think that the chances of him being renditioned (sorry, awful word) to the US are slim but then I'm not the one who Newt Gingrich said should be treated as "an enemy combatant", a phrase which will be all too familiar to anyone with a passing knowledge of Gitmo.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #530 on: March 1, 2011, 04:57:28 pm »
Even with the hilariously lop sided extradition arrangement the UK has with the US

Actually the US have extradited a higher percentage of those the UK has requested extradited then the UK have to them.

they still have to have some sort of case against him and so far all they have is intellectually challenged politicians calling for him to be executed.

He runs a website that has published information which has been obtained through espionage. If they really wanted to make a case against him it really wouldn't be hard, I wouldn't have thought.

To be fair, I think that the chances of him being renditioned (sorry, awful word) to the US are slim but then I'm not the one who Newt Gingrich said should be treated as "an enemy combatant", a phrase which will be all too familiar to anyone with a passing knowledge of Gitmo.

I wouldn't have a problem with him being charged with espionage related crimes. As the well (self-) publicised owner of a website which has clearly had something to do with espionage there's not really anything to say that he shouldn't at least stand trial for it if the US wanted to charge him.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #531 on: March 1, 2011, 05:07:16 pm »
Actually the US have extradited a higher percentage of those the UK has requested extradited then the UK have to them.

Ok, but the Americans still have a lesser burden of proof than the Brits, which is what I meant by lop sided.

He runs a website that has published information which has been obtained through espionage. If they really wanted to make a case against him it really wouldn't be hard, I wouldn't have thought.

And yet they haven't. My guess is that's because he didn't "obtain" anything, either by espionage or otherwise. They came to him. An analogy would be you going to the Guardian and telling them about all sorts of secret army stuff. You're certainly in a spot of bother but why would the Guardian be for publishing it? And bear in mind, the Americans get much more vexed about freedom of speech issues than the Brits.

I wouldn't have a problem with him being charged with espionage related crimes. As the well (self-) publicised owner of a website which has clearly had something to do with espionage there's not really anything to say that he shouldn't at least stand trial for it if the US wanted to charge him.

Again, it doesn't clearly have anything to do with espionage. Here's a bit from wiki which sheds some light on why the Americans haven't done anything yet.

"The U.S. Justice Department opened a criminal probe of WikiLeaks and founder Julian Assange shortly after the leak of diplomatic cables began. Attorney General Eric Holder affirmed the probe was“not sabre-rattling”, but was "an active, ongoing criminal investigation." The The Washington Post reported that the department was considering charges under the Espionage Act, a move which former prosecutors characterised as "difficult" because of First Amendment protections for the press.  Several Supreme Court cases have previously established that the American constitution protects the re-publication of illegally gained information provided the publishers did not themselves break any laws in acquiring it. Federal prosecutors have also considered prosecuting Assange for trafficking in stolen government property, but since the diplomatic cables are intellectual rather than physical property, that approach also faces hurdles."

Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #532 on: March 1, 2011, 05:34:48 pm »
What are the facts? The only facts that I'm aware of are that there has been an allegation of some kind of sexual crime made by two women against him and that a court in the UK has said that he should be extradited to Sweden to answer those claims in a court of law there. Surely any other facts will be revealed in the court in front of the judge and jury?

Now as far as I'm aware Sweden's justice system isn't seen as particularly unfair and I'm not aware of any reason why he shouldn't receive a fair trial there for the crimes that he's alleged to have committed. If this was some secret plot by the US to have him 'rendered' to them, why not just apply for his extradition from the UK? The crimes that the US allege against him (presumably related to espionage against the US Government) would certainly be enough to have at least a claim on him without going to all the trouble of getting some Swedish bird to make false accusations, going through the extradition process from the UK to Sweden, going through a show trial in Sweden and so on.

Its a  very intricate case but have a look at this it may give you an idea of what he is up against http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYLHCvM-7s&feature=player_embedded
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Offline _tomd

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #533 on: March 5, 2011, 05:21:03 pm »
Wasn't too sure where else to post this, but everything else about Bradley Manning appears to be in this thread anyway. The fact that this is happening at all is very upsetting (I understand his solitary confinement isn't breaking news, but the reasoning behind the enforced nudity, and increasingly poor conditions, is unbelievable; even more so when you consider he's yet to be convicted of anything):

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/05/manning/index.html

« Last Edit: March 5, 2011, 05:28:20 pm by _tomd »
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #534 on: March 5, 2011, 09:02:18 pm »
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/05/manning/index.html

How is Obama letting this happen? Did the  Nobel Committee Commitee put a return address on the medal ?

Offline P45

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #535 on: March 5, 2011, 09:33:15 pm »
Wasn't too sure where else to post this, but everything else about Bradley Manning appears to be in this thread anyway. The fact that this is happening at all is very upsetting (I understand his solitary confinement isn't breaking news, but the reasoning behind the enforced nudity, and increasingly poor conditions, is unbelievable; even more so when you consider he's yet to be convicted of anything):

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/05/manning/index.html

In the armed forces, here and the US, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #536 on: March 6, 2011, 07:14:12 am »
No you're not. Certainly not in the UK anyway. They don't even make you take your beret and belt off before you're marched into your OC's office for the charge anymore. 
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #537 on: March 7, 2011, 11:19:21 am »
How is Obama letting this happen? Did the  Nobel Committee Commitee put a return address on the medal ?

Shamed that organisation for all time.
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Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #538 on: March 7, 2011, 12:26:57 pm »
Shamed that organisation for all time.

In fairness, that happened A LONG time ago when they gave it to Henry fucking Kissinger in 1973.

Offline PJG

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #539 on: March 8, 2011, 07:07:11 am »
In fairness, that happened A LONG time ago when they gave it to Henry fucking Kissinger in 1973.

Along with Arafat and Al Fucking Gore

Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #540 on: March 8, 2011, 10:53:28 am »
In fairness, that happened A LONG time ago when they gave it to Henry fucking Kissinger in 1973.


Just looked through the list some nasty bastards in there alright.
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #541 on: March 8, 2011, 10:58:24 pm »
No you're not. Certainly not in the UK anyway. They don't even make you take your beret and belt off before you're marched into your OC's office for the charge anymore.

No wonder they get lost looking for a hotel in a war zone, no discipline any more. ::)
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #542 on: March 9, 2011, 06:45:36 am »
No wonder they get lost looking for a hotel in a war zone, no discipline any more. ::)

What does discipline have to do with map reading Wendy?
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #543 on: March 9, 2011, 08:18:02 am »
What does discipline have to do with map reading Wendy?

Concentration, eye on the ball discipline your mind, thought the SAS boys are supermen. Didn't they have GPS' devices? Mine is dead easy has Points of Interest, they could have tapped in hotels instead of asking the farmers for directions to the nearest Hilton. Cheap in Argos you should let your superiors know.
Dava please don't take everything I say literally, sometimes I am taking the piss. Shall I make it easier and have a funny face at the end of a piss taking post.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #544 on: March 9, 2011, 09:04:46 am »
It's difficult to tell the difference between your 'funny' posts and your usual level of insane cluelessness.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #545 on: March 9, 2011, 12:31:00 pm »
It's difficult to tell the difference between your 'funny' posts and your usual level of insane cluelessness.

;D

Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #546 on: March 9, 2011, 02:40:22 pm »
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #547 on: March 21, 2011, 12:39:39 pm »
US Army 'kill team' in Afghanistan posed for photos of murdered civilians

Commanders brace for backlash of anti-US sentiment that could be more damaging than after the Abu Ghraib scandal

   
    * Jon Boone
    * The Guardian, Monday 21 March 2011
 
Commanders in Afghanistan are bracing themselves for possible riots and public fury triggered by the publication of "trophy" photographs of US soldiers posing with the dead bodies of defenceless Afghan civilians they killed.

Senior officials at Nato's International Security Assistance Force in Kabul have compared the pictures published by the German news weekly Der Spiegel to the images of US soldiers abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib in Iraq which sparked waves of anti-US protests around the world.

They fear that the pictures could be even more damaging as they show the aftermath of the deliberate murders of Afghan civilians by a rogue US Stryker tank unit that operated in the southern province of Kandahar last year.

Some of the activities of the self-styled "kill team" are already public, with 12 men currently on trial in Seattle for their role in the killing of three civilians.

Five of the soldiers are on trial for pre-meditated murder, after they staged killings to make it look like they were defending themselves from Taliban attacks.

Other charges include the mutilation of corpses, the possession of images of human casualties and drug abuse.

All of the soldiers have denied the charges. They face the death penalty or life in prison if convicted.

The case has already created shock around the world, particularly with the revelations that the men cut "trophies" from the bodies of the people they killed.

An investigation by Der Spiegel has unearthed approximately 4,000 photos and videos taken by the men.

The magazine, which is planning to publish only three images, said that in addition to the crimes the men were on trial for there are "also entire collections of pictures of other victims that some of the defendants were keeping".

The US military has strived to keep the pictures out of the public domain fearing it could inflame feelings at a time when anti-Americanism in Afghanistan is already running high.

In a statement, the army said it apologised for the distress caused by photographs "depicting actions repugnant to us as human beings and contrary to the standards and values of the United States".

The lengthy Spiegel article that accompanies the photographs contains new details about the sadistic behaviour of the men.

In one incident in May last year, the article says, during a patrol, the team apprehended a mullah who was standing by the road and took him into a ditch where they made him kneel down.

The group's leader, Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, then allegedly threw a grenade at the man while an order was given for him to be shot.

Afterwards, Gibbs is described cutting off one of the man's little fingers and removing a tooth.

The patrol team later claimed to their superiors that the mullah had tried to threaten them with a grenade and that they had no choice but to shoot.

On Sunday night many organisations employing foreign staff, including the United Nations, ordered their staff into a "lockdown", banning all movements around Kabul and requiring people to remain in their compounds.

In addition to the threat from the publication of the photographs, security has been heightened amid fears the Taliban may try to attack Persian new year celebrations.

There could also be attacks because Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, is due to make a speech declaring which areas of the country should be transferred from international to Afghan control in the coming months.

One security manager for the US company DynCorp sent an email to clients warning that publication of the photos was likely "to incite the local population" as the "severity of the incidents to be revealed are graphic and extreme".

source

I presume Der Spiegel will shortly be the subject of calls for them to be shut down, arrested or assassinated.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #548 on: March 21, 2011, 12:52:27 pm »
^
Yeah read about that.  Just plays into the hands of so many groups.  Also a timely reminder of how civilians get caught up no matter what we say.
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Offline Wendy Baby

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #549 on: March 21, 2011, 01:32:30 pm »
^
Yeah read about that.  Just plays into the hands of so many groups.  Also a timely reminder of how civilians get caught up no matter what we say.

Wonder what the people of Libya will think when this reaches them? And before quisling Corkyboy asks yes I do think foot soldiers will go into Libya they will have to. Specialist forces to train the rebels at first but like all wars of this kind it won't be enough. The test is when the first made in US boot touches sand what the reaction from the rebels themselves will be
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #550 on: March 21, 2011, 01:47:51 pm »
Wonder what the people of Libya will think when this reaches them? And before quisling Corkyboy asks yes I do think foot soldiers will go into Libya they will have to. Specialist forces to train the rebels at first but like all wars of this kind it won't be enough. The test is when the first made in US boot touches sand what the reaction from the rebels themselves will be

Wendy, seriously, what the fuck?

This is a thread about the Wikileaks story, and I posted a news item about Der Spiegel doing a similar thing with Afghanistan operations. So you come in, call me a quisling (demonstrating you don't know the meaning of the word) and then start on about ground troops in Libya. Are you drunk?

Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #551 on: March 21, 2011, 01:47:53 pm »

I presume Der Spiegel will shortly be the subject of calls for them to be shut down, arrested or assassinated.

Proper order, too. Inciting hatred and putting American lives at risk through journalism. I mean, who do they think they are?!

Surely if these soldiers wish to take bodily keepsakes and thousands of photos of "the aftermath of the deliberate murders of Afghan civilians", they should be allowed to do so without public knowledge. Nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of their ultimate objective of finding the tall guy in the caves, dontchaknow.

Shut down Der Spiegel NOW!

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #552 on: March 21, 2011, 02:10:13 pm »
Seems one of the brave lads cut a deal to testify against his comrades.

U.S. army apologizes over "repugnant" Afghan photos

BERLIN | Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:23am EDT

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany's Der Spiegel magazine published pictures Monday of American troops posing over the bloodied body of a man it said had been killed illegally in Afghanistan, drawing an apology from the U.S. army.

The magazine said one of the pictures showed a smiling Army Specialist Jeremy Morlock, who agreed last month to plead guilty to murder charges and testify against his co-defendants in a court martial, according to his lawyer.

In a statement, the U.S. army said the photos depicted "actions repugnant to us as human beings and contrary to the standards and values of the United States Army."

"We apologize for the distress these photos cause," said the statement issued through the U.S. embassy in Berlin.

Morlock is one of five soldiers charged with murdering three Afghan villagers whose killings were allegedly staged to look like legitimate combat casualties.

The dozens of war-related photos seized as evidence are intensely embarrassing for the United States and have drawn comparisons with pictures of Iraqi prisoners taken by U.S. military personnel at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2004.

The army said actions shown in the photographs were now the subject of the court-martial.

"The photos appear in stark contrast to the discipline, professionalism and respect that have characterized our soldiers' performance during nearly 10 years of sustained operations (in Afghanistan)."

The deal with prosecutors, subject to the approval of a military judge, calls for Morlock, 22, from Wasilla, Alaska, to serve no more than 24 years in prison, as opposed to the life term he faced if convicted of all charges in a trial.

source

If that guy's address rings a bell, it's because he's from the same place as Sarah Palin.

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #553 on: March 21, 2011, 06:31:12 pm »
It's a bit rich of a German newspaper to complain about the killing of innocent civilians in wartime...
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #554 on: March 21, 2011, 06:38:21 pm »
In fairness dava, it's 2011.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #555 on: March 21, 2011, 06:39:49 pm »
In fairness dava, it's 2011.

Nah, it's twenty to seven
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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #556 on: March 22, 2011, 10:35:53 am »

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #557 on: March 22, 2011, 10:45:04 am »
it is easy to sit in an air-conditioned room and point fingers to a couple of soldiers who sees blood, dead bodies, war injuries everyday...and expect them to react like everybody else in those circumstances
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Offline BoRed

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #558 on: March 22, 2011, 10:48:06 am »
it is easy to sit in an air-conditioned room and point fingers to a couple of soldiers who sees blood, dead bodies, war injuries everyday...and expect them to react like everybody else in those circumstances

I'm sorry, I have a lot of understanding for soldiers and the lives they lead, but there are no excuses for this sort of "reaction".

And by using the word "react", you seem to be suggesting this was some kind of manslaughter, while these people are guilty of a series of planned murders.

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Re: Wikileaks:
« Reply #559 on: March 22, 2011, 10:49:01 am »
it is easy to sit in an air-conditioned room and point fingers to a couple of soldiers who sees blood, dead bodies, war injuries everyday...and expect them to react like everybody else in those circumstances

Really? I expect it would be even easier to kill some people and not take photos of your mates posing with the corpses, like they were trophies or something.