Author Topic: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.  (Read 23025 times)

Offline Caffeine

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2009, 03:30:32 pm »
Excellent post.

Offline JohnBarnesBigToe

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2009, 03:32:35 pm »
A really good post. I don't agree with all of it (some people that criticise players, systems etc. have felt that way for months/years and are therefore not knee-jerking), but at least you've put a hell of a lot of thought into it.

My thoughts exactly
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Offline stoa

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2009, 03:33:35 pm »
The part on ignorance is the most important one for me. Because in a lot of discussions people have different opinions than the manager. They're entitled to them, but at the same time they should acknowledge that Rafa might have a different view and that he has very good reasons why he has them.

Morientes or Zenden were a good example for that. If you read what people were saying about them you would have gotten the impression that they played, because Rafa is mates with them or they have some dirt on him. They had their flaws, but many people weren't prepared to see that they might have been doing stuff Rafa was happy with.

Same thing for Babel in the opposite way. Babel is taken out of the starting eleven and suddenly it's because Rafa doesn't like him or wants to ruin him as a player. Not one second do people consider that there might actually be very valid reasons for Rafa doing what he's doing.

Or look at discussions about our draws against the small teams. You'll see two lines being mentioned again and again. "I wish we would play two strikers against the smaller teams at home" and "I wish we wouldn't play 2 defensive midfielders at home". A simple look on LFC.tv will reveal that we actually DID use two strikers in most of those games. However, playing two strikers against the smaller teams at home is still seen as some miraculous solution to the draws at home.

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2009, 03:34:52 pm »
How about if we win you call them happy clappers, and if they lose or draw you call them knee jerkers,. Generally i call them fickle sheep led by the media muppets, who cannot see what is going on in this club,or on the pitch, unless people like lawro tells them what to look for!

We do not need an excess of positivity or negativity, we need an excess of realism and commonsense.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2009, 03:35:14 pm »
It's not knee-jerk to be very worried after a lifeless performance, a weaker squad and a fairly dismal pre-season. In fact, it demonstrates a flippancy that borders on mindlessness to be unworried. I'm pretty sure that Rafa is extremely worried too as, as pointed out, he's no mug.

It's about perspective though, isn't it? The examples you give there are the extreme ends of both sides. It's not unreasonable to be worried yet still not be knee-jerking.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2009, 03:35:53 pm »
It's not knee-jerk to be very worried after a lifeless performance, a weaker squad and a fairly dismal pre-season. In fact, it demonstrates a flippancy that borders on mindlessness to be unworried. I'm pretty sure that Rafa is extremely worried too as, as pointed out, he's no mug.
Of course not. As it happens there are some really huge problems - but for me that almost makes it worse. There is a real massive situation here, and obvious targets responsible for it, but what REALLY pisses people off is that the injured Benayoun didn't start instead of Babel and therefor Rafa's a cock, even though said person has been on the Babel thread for the past year whining about how great a player he is and wondering why he doesn't get enough chances. I exaggerate of course, but you know what I mean. I never have a problem with criticism as long as there's appropriate thought and consistency behind it. I would agree completely that you'd have to be a total fool not to have at least some worries given the situation the club is in at the moment, though for me the Spurs result was, at worst, a symptom of some very deep seated problems. The result and performance I feel very sure will be rectified in the future, but the other stuff behind it could lead to a very horrible place - indeed I'm personally amazed that Rafa's still here - but that he is still here does also give me great confidence in our team - I don't think he'd be sticking it out if he didn't feel on the verge of something potentially huge and spectaculat.
Everyone should read this post. Magnificent.

You spelt 'weird' wrong though.
Where? If you could point out roughly where it is in the article I'd like to correct it, pedant that I am!
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2009, 03:52:15 pm »
Exactly, yet funnily enough it never applies the other way. You never see legions of 'Gerrard at CM' posters justifying/retracting/whatever their views if we've just had a shocking game with Gerrard at the heart of it playing abysmally in CM (which has happened many times).

Again, not to say that Gerrard should never ever be played there, but then that's the thing - I personally really like Rafa's 'horses for courses' approach is brilliant, and am very suspicious of what you might call 'football fundamentalism', IE that there's one style of play/formation/set of players that is superior in all circumstances and must not be deviated from. Indeed, if there were anything approaching such a system, how could football possibly be such a wonderfully varied sport in terms of formations and playing styles etc?

Exactly.. Another thing which went trough my mind now is exaggeration. I know I do it in amidst the post-game frenzy.

---

To continue for a bit on the questions lifted by Greg.. There is no way ShanksLegend is going to know what "everyone" (all the away end thinks). Consensus in a group is often formed by the loudest, or people who passive-agressively moans (more likely in a smaller group - where everyone wants to get along).. So even if Shanks claims to voice the consensus of the away end on sunday he will most likely be wrong at least to some extent and in the end he's voicing his opinion about a possible consensus.

Bottomline there was propably not one fan of LFC who wasn't dissapointed, perhaps angry and frustrated on sunday evening. We had a torrid game and Rafa voiced it afterwards. Yet somehow.. "we know better".
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2009, 03:52:44 pm »
Well of course we both do!!   :moon
:D
Hesbighesred - What I would like you to address is ShanksLegend's justification of his views. He claimed that other matchgoers also felt the same way he did

I began to question ShanksLegend's views when I was reading his post, but I was horrified to read that the WHOLE away end agreed with him. Is he exagerrating? Are ALL the away end wrong? Are they all kneejerkers?

Since you asked, I made some points in his thread but specific to what your saying:

1) He's obviously talking crap. He isn't speaking for anyone bar himself and his mates, and possibly a few people he spoke to, people who he probably was speaking to because he or friends knew him, or they looked approachable. It's not like he's actually taken a poll of the whole away end. I think FS was there, for example - he has lots of friends, and I'm sure they'd (certainly FS) would have vehemently disagreed about at least some of SL's points, especially the Kuyt one.

2) The Kuyt point, to me, pretty much proves that SL was talking crap, and that 'speaking for everyone' is basically speaking for himself and his mates. A year ago, maybe, but the majority of Liverpool fans at away matches NOW see Kuyt on the right as a problem? Do they bollocks. He's won the fans over and rightly so - it's a massive change, and I don't think for a second that the majority of that away end would want a replacement enough for Kuyt to put it top of their priority list, as SL did in that article.

3) See Pr0n's post - emotion and instant response at the match is very different to after the match, and as he says not inherently bad. During a game I'm a massive knee-jerker myself, and all pretence to objectivity tends to go right out of the window.

4) Alcohol - a massive, unspoken factor that actually goes right through the OP. A large proportion, indeed almost certainly majority, of fans watch a game while pissed. You see things very differently when pissed - over-reaction comes much easier, pre-conceptions are that much stronger. It's like when people post 'Lucas kept giving the ball away...' you know straight away that the person was not watching Lucas, but their own pre-conceptions, almost certainly through a fog serveral pints deep. So you then talk to other pissed bastards in your circle during and after the game, and before you know it you're 'speaking for everyone'. I could be wrong of course...SL may well have been sober, but it's an undeniable general factor in a lot of that type of thinking/attitude I think.
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Offline ErinMc66

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2009, 03:55:05 pm »
I think the primary contributor to this knee-jerkism (I'm going to make up my own word too) is the prevalence of sensationalist journalism.  In fact, is there really any other kind in football these days?   Those who love football but who don't necessarily understand it from a tactical perspective will read the shite in the media and take it as gospel.   They figure that if all of these "paid professionals" feel a certain way, then it must be the case.  Oftentimes I'm not even convinced that these journos actually believe what they write--they simply try to stir up controversy.   But the average fan won't necessarily discriminate and their arguments become simply a regurgitation of whatever they've read in the rags that day.   
"I don’t think I’ll ever leave . . . though to be honest I’ve never picked up the Sunday papers and seen, ‘Jamie Carragher is wanted by X’. That’d be nice, you know, just for a little ego boost . . . could it be arranged? I see other players, ‘Real Madrid want so and so’ and you think, ‘He’s f****** crap! Him?!'”

Offline Dick Emery

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2009, 03:56:36 pm »
Of course not. As it happens there are some really huge problems - but for me that almost makes it worse. There is a real massive situation here, and obvious targets responsible for it, but what REALLY pisses people off is that the injured Benayoun didn't start instead of Babel and therefor Rafa's a cock, even though said person has been on the Babel thread for the past year whining about how great a player he is and wondering why he doesn't get enough chances. I exaggerate of course, but you know what I mean. I never have a problem with criticism as long as there's appropriate thought and consistency behind it. I would agree completely that you'd have to be a total fool not to have at least some worries given the situation the club is in at the moment, though for me the Spurs result was, at worst, a symptom of some very deep seated problems. The result and performance I feel very sure will be rectified in the future, but the other stuff behind it could lead to a very horrible place - indeed I'm personally amazed that Rafa's still here - but that he is still here does also give me great confidence in our team - I don't think he'd be sticking it out if he didn't feel on the verge of something potentially huge and spectaculat.Where? If you could point out roughly where it is in the article I'd like to correct it, pedant that I am!

I think your points are correct. There are some total half-wits on this site with no consistency of opinion, ludicrously exaggerated ideas about players merits or shortcomings and with extreme reactions to both victory and defeat. These people are extremely annoying and do de-value the whole quality of the site. Sadly, they are representative of the entire decline of our support. I find our supporters embarrassing a lot of the time.

We must be careful that we don't discount negative comments just because they are seen as unsupportive. I beleive it is part of our role as supporters to maintain standards and offer constructive criticism as long as it has some foundation in evidence. At the moment, our squad seems unbalanced, we're exposed to significant risks in key positions and we have not planned adequately for the succession of a exceptional and influential player. A lot of this has to be laid at Rafa's feet. I love the guy and have repsect for his abilities. I do believe, though, that some of his decision-making at a macro level (in the transfer market) and micro level (within matches) are not immune from criticism.

Offline Redondo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 04:13:55 pm »
.Where? If you could point out roughly where it is in the article I'd like to correct it, pedant that I am!

Still, it does make a kind of sense, when considered in the context of the wierd ‘Pop-Idol’ era we are living in.

....sorry but you did ask. Not that i want to take away from your award-winning post fella.

Offline Kennys from heaven

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 04:27:54 pm »
Don't care what you say - I'm a genius and I'm always right.

I choose to stack shelves at Aldi as i don't consider the World to be ready for my managerial brilliance and tactical insight.

How dare you come out with such claptrap...I foresaw everything! It was easy to see, blah, blah, blah... Whassat? Medication time? Oh thank you nursey...
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Offline macca888

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 04:28:12 pm »
An excellent post. Voltaire was partally correct - everyone has a right to their opinion in my eyes, just as long as they allow me my opinion of how shite their opinion is. If trying to be aware and understand of the selections and tactics Rafa uses is being a superfan count me in.

N.B. As long as we can exclude Degen from the conversation   :D
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Offline RedRush

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 04:33:41 pm »
Love this post, hesbighesred. You seem to have both a man and a woman's brain, a really balanced brain, and I mean it as a great compliment.

Offline Libertina Warbeck

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2009, 04:34:29 pm »
We're still on course for 111 points

:lmao That's the spirit!

Seriously though, how sweeeet would that be? 37 victories in a row? Blimey.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2009, 04:41:34 pm »
What would you call it out of curiosity? Is there a better term that isn't extremely unwieldy and clunky to type?

Personally, I always love using new/made-up/slang words as long as they quickly and clearly express a concept better than other words. Though I must admit some make me fume - like 'staycation'. I'm enfuriated to the point of axe-murdering anyone who actually says that rectal discharge of a word.

It's a FUCKING HOLIDAY. Whether you stay home or not, you infuriating twat. Especially if you're not even staying at home, but going to Cornwall or some shit. IT'S STILL CALLED A FUCKING HOLIDAY. But that's for the Grifter thread. Ahem, apologies.



Sorry mate, wasn't trying to be purposely pedantic, just the whole phrase gets taken out of context and used in a hundred made up words which don't make sense.

It's a knee-jerk reaction. There are no other words to be made out of it. The whole "you're just being a knee-jerk" and "too many knee-jerkers in here" gets right on my fucking tits. It's an adjective!

Wasn't meant in an arsey way, just hate seeing the phrase used in general.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2009, 04:42:03 pm »
cheers, corrected now. No need whatsoever to apologise...as you said I did ask!
I think your points are correct. There are some total half-wits on this site with no consistency of opinion, ludicrously exaggerated ideas about players merits or shortcomings and with extreme reactions to both victory and defeat. These people are extremely annoying and do de-value the whole quality of the site. Sadly, they are representative of the entire decline of our support. I find our supporters embarrassing a lot of the time.

We must be careful that we don't discount negative comments just because they are seen as unsupportive. I beleive it is part of our role as supporters to maintain standards and offer constructive criticism as long as it has some foundation in evidence. At the moment, our squad seems unbalanced, we're exposed to significant risks in key positions and we have not planned adequately for the succession of a exceptional and influential player. A lot of this has to be laid at Rafa's feet. I love the guy and have repsect for his abilities. I do believe, though, that some of his decision-making at a macro level (in the transfer market) and micro level (within matches) are not immune from criticism.
Absolutely. As an example, I was critical last season that Babel didn't come on against Villa instead of Ngog - Babel had had a couple of good performances before that and I still don't really get why Ngog was picked ahead of him. I mean, I understand why Ngog can easily be seen as a superior option up top overall, he shows greater intelligence in that position for one, but at the time, and in context, it didn't and still doesn't make any sense to me. It's never a problem when decent reasons are given, I think, and I agree that fans do have an important role as a 'check and balance' if you like. It's difficult though, because at some point that can also turn into, for example, chants of 'stick your Gareth Barry up your arse', which shocked me at the time and still does - there's a line between criticism and having a go, that isn't always obvious or at least not until it gets crossed to that extent.

As for your first paragraph, I think this:
I think the primary contributor to this knee-jerkism (I'm going to make up my own word too) is the prevalence of sensationalist journalism.  In fact, is there really any other kind in football these days?   Those who love football but who don't necessarily understand it from a tactical perspective will read the shite in the media and take it as gospel.   They figure that if all of these "paid professionals" feel a certain way, then it must be the case.  Oftentimes I'm not even convinced that these journos actually believe what they write--they simply try to stir up controversy.   But the average fan won't necessarily discriminate and their arguments become simply a regurgitation of whatever they've read in the rags that day.   
...is a massive, massive factor. I've got a really good book about the rise of so-called 'churnalism', corparate values imposed top-down on the news industry, leading to fewer, worse trained staff and a massive emphasis on the bottom line of profit rather than seeking truth - the latter being what journalism really should be about. Pandering to ignorance gets a reaction, handily both from the ignorant AND the well informed, thus increasing paper sales/page hits etc etc. Hence why I brought up that McNulty article. I don't think he truly believes in what he writes - or at least not the way he writes it, but he's not writing to generate truth, he's writing to provoke responses, and in that latter sense he does his job very well indeed. By omitting context, history, research and analysis you provoke responses - not even 'debate' anymore - just pure responses and page hits. In that sense, every defeat HAS to be a crisis, and taking it further, I also think that's the source of the Liverpool media bias. It's as simple as Man Utd having the most support, Man Utd generate the most page-hits and biggest TV audiences, so it's very much in the commercial interest to play to the Man Utd story...by challenging the 'glory glory' myth you basically risk alienating the whole the Mancs fanbase, and it's especially the more casual, ignorant fans who buy into it the most who represent the core audience for Sky and phone-ins etc etc etc. most of those people simply don't have one of the brains or inclination to talk in depth about tactics or whatever, so you go with your subject as 'referee scandal' (for example) rather than 'the role of full-backs in the modern game'.

The really sad thing, for me though, is that it doesn't really have to be that way. The funny thing about, if you like 'deeper' culture, say for example classical music versus girls aloud, is that if you take the time to teach people the basics, give them the means to appreciate it, you find that a surprising number of people actually do want to go 'deeper', even if they didn't realise it.

A great example is how people's perceptions of modern art have changed in the last 20 years. I remember when it was seen as totally elitist, complete guff, self indulgent rubbish by twats for toffs. Spring forward and museums being free means people have approached modern art on it's own terms out of curiosity, it's accesible so people have accessed it, and now modern art is perceived totally differently. Go into the Tate modern in London, for example, any day at any time, and there's such a wonderful variety of people. Kids, teenagers, parents, working class people, middle class people, hard-core art fans and critics, all taking something really positive and enriching from the place, and all because the art is at last able to speak for itself. I see football in a similar way, and coming to think of it the ever-increasing prices are probably just as much a factor in football as they have been in modern art. When you pay more for a ticket you feel a bigger sense of entitlement and far more inclined to criticise loudly if you feel in some way hard done by.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 04:48:53 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2009, 04:47:16 pm »
Love this post, hesbighesred. You seem to have both a man and a woman's brain, a really balanced brain, and I mean it as a great compliment.
Interestingly, I am actually a hermaphrodite. On my right hand side I also have one beautifully formed womanly breast, wheras the other is covered with gorilla like chest wig that would intimidate an early bond-era Sean Connery.
Sorry mate, wasn't trying to be purposely pedantic, just the whole phrase gets taken out of context and used in a hundred made up words which don't make sense.

It's a knee-jerk reaction. There are no other words to be made out of it. The whole "you're just being a knee-jerk" and "too many knee-jerkers in here" gets right on my fucking tits. It's an adjective!

Wasn't meant in an arsey way, just hate seeing the phrase used in general.
Ah fair enough mate. I personally think it works perfectly well as a noun but I understand completely where you're coming from, hence my rant about that holiday related shitty new buzzword that I shall not type again for fear of making myself physically sick.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2009, 04:49:23 pm »
Ah fair enough mate. I personally think it works perfectly well as a noun but I understand completely where you're coming from, hence my rant about that holiday related shitty new buzzword that I shall not type again for fear of making myself physically sick.

There are just some words which are like nails on a chalkboard. "Knee-jerking" and "Knee-jerker" are two of the worst ones for me. Makes me want to weep. ;D
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2009, 04:54:11 pm »
Interestingly, I am actually a hermaphrodite. On my right hand side I also have one beautifully formed womanly breast, wheras the other is covered with gorilla like chest wig that would intimidate an early bond-era Sean Connery.

I knew it!

But... the imagery's hardly balanced! I think I'm going to have nightmares.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2009, 05:00:43 pm »
There are just some words which are like nails on a chalkboard. "Knee-jerking" and "Knee-jerker" are two of the worst ones for me. Makes me want to weep. ;D
Is fair enough. I'm actually tempted to re-write the article, such is your passion, but It ain't gonna happen just yet!
I knew it!

But... the imagery's hardly balanced! I think I'm going to have nightmares.
:)
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2009, 05:07:51 pm »
There are just some words which are like nails on a chalkboard. "Knee-jerking" and "Knee-jerker" are two of the worst ones for me. Makes me want to weep. ;D

Couldn't be more apt though? Any reflex arc bypasses the brain and clearly a lot of posters don't think before they post. Or even open their mouths.

They literally don't use their brains.


(ta for the read hbhr)

Offline macca888

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2009, 05:10:26 pm »
There are just some words which are like nails on a chalkboard. "Knee-jerking" and "Knee-jerker" are two of the worst ones for me. Makes me want to weep. ;D

"Flatters to deceive" is my personal phrase that makes me want to cudgel some fucker.

Love this post, hesbighesred. You seem to have both a man and a woman's brain, a really balanced brain, and I mean it as a great compliment.


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Offline mariov77

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2009, 05:18:26 pm »
We're still on course for 111 points

quality post.

it never ceases to amaze me how people think we should change everything over a single result/performance

lets see what 50% of you say come Wednesday ...
The past was amazing the future looks scary...

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2009, 05:20:51 pm »
"Flatters to deceive" is my personal phrase that makes me want to cudgel some fucker.
 

He's a tranny. Say no more mate   ;)
Trans-gender, actually. In that I transcend gender itself. It's beneath me, the whole thing, given my staggering intellectual capacity. Gender is something for plebs like you to be bound by - so no surprise to see you ignorantly flinging the term 'tranny' about. You fucking queer. ;)
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Offline carling

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2009, 05:21:51 pm »
I don't know if snobbery's the right word...or at least, I don't think I'm being snobby if I'm pointing out that someone is talking shite. To put it another way, everyone has the right to their views, and this is a great place to express them. However, in putting your views out you are also signing a sort of contract, in which you are inviting other people to also respond to those views. In that context, I don't see how it's snobby to point out obvious examples of the type of shite people spout again and again.

To an extent I really hate that 'superfan' tag as well. It's a handy tag, that has some merit, but actually describes such a tiny minority of people that it almost has no meaning. There are very, very few fans who actually follow with blind faith, criticising nothing, supporting the manager and players in everything all the time, yet the way that term is used, it's as if there's legions and legions of 'superfans', kind of like evangelical christians, dominating the airwaves and suffocating the views of anyone who dares criticise. Hence, I dislike it because it seems to me, if anything, that it's the complete other way around in this country. Thought, reflection, analysis - all drowned out by the loud voices of the ignorant knee-jerkers, all feeding on and fed by the media.

BBC today is a classic example, that McNulty (and he's by no means a bad football writer by the standard of his peers), having tipped us for the title a week or two ago, is immediately blogging about how Rafa has a big job on and changes need to be made blah blah blah after one game - one game which we could well have lost even with everyone fit and playing well, given how tricky a tie it was, and one in which our CB pairing managed to effectively take itself out of the game after 30 minutes. Suddenly we have a gaping hole where Alonso was, and the previous 20/30 minutes of midfield dominance we enjoyed are long forgotten. The key thing is, whether you write a positive piece or negative, context, tactics, analysis, research - can, indeed must be ignored. All that matters is provoking 'reaction', and it's the knee-jerk crowd that are by far the easiest to play to, and the most responsive when the right buttons are pressed.

When people are talking absolute shite then fair enough.

But I thought on Sunday we looked most like creating chances when Gerrard was further back and we actually had the ball being passed forward with some conviction, rather than it being spread limply around for so long that it made it easy for Spurs to close us down.

Now I'm not saying Lucas should be sold at the soonest opportunity and Gerrard needs to be made into a CM, that is just what I thought of that particular game, but at times it is as if you can't make them opinions without being crucified.

I'm sure Rafa has got a lot of ideas for the squad and I am looking forward to seeing them.

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2009, 05:23:03 pm »
Is fair enough. I'm actually tempted to re-write the article, such is your passion, but It ain't gonna happen just yet!

;D

I wouldn't go that far.
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Offline vicgill

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2009, 05:28:16 pm »
While reading Shankslegend's post I was so annoyed by the shear arrogance and ignorance I decided to write a reply. After reading your post my reply has now been binned, you have said everything I wanted to say and more and with an eloquence that i couldn't match, the time and effort that you must have put into that post was well worth it, thank you
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2009, 05:34:08 pm »
When people are talking absolute shite then fair enough.

But I thought on Sunday we looked most like creating chances when Gerrard was further back and we actually had the ball being passed forward with some conviction, rather than it being spread limply around for so long that it made it easy for Spurs to close us down.

Now I'm not saying Lucas should be sold at the soonest opportunity and Gerrard needs to be made into a CM, that is just what I thought of that particular game, but at times it is as if you can't make them opinions without being crucified.

I'm sure Rafa has got a lot of ideas for the squad and I am looking forward to seeing them.
I didn't watch the full match, but watching the .tv highlights, which I think give a reasonable picture, I got the distinct impression that we were well in control of the midfield for the first 20 minutes or so, with Lucas looking excellent. It seemed to me that the major turning point was Carra's 'Ram-Man' (remember he-man?) attack on Skrtel...whole team seemed to lose confidence after that.

Also, I don't see any reason whatsoever why Gerrard and Torres can't occasionally come deeper to look for the ball regardless of formation - especially given that Lucas/Aquilani would take their place, thus giving us more movement. I think if the whole team adjusts to Alonso leaving by becoming a little more compact, getting a little closer to Lucas, trusting him more and enabling the give and go type stuff that he (for me) is the best in the squad at, I actually think we could be an even better team then we were at the peak of last season. Gerrard instead of Alonso personally strikes me as, essentially, an inferior replacement for Alonso. Certainly I can't see Rafa going down that route given Valencia's style and personell, and given that changing Alonso has clearly been on his mind for some time - a thought process presumably only altered because Alonso was SO phenomenal last season.

That said, I take your point completely. In the context of the Spurs game I have no problem whatsoever with people wondering whether Gerrard deeper might be a temporary, or indeed even permanent solution. For sure in the years to come you'd think he'd either have to drop deeper again or become more of a Riquelme-style of 'in-the hole' player. In the context of the overall points I was making though, I think it's a perfectly fair point. There are a lot of people who call for Gerrard in midfield, often in a 4-4-2, after pretty much any bad performance, regardless of were our weaknesses in that particular match happened to be, while the reasons why we abandoned Gerrard in CM, which are exactly as valid now as they were then, just seem to be forgotten about, or wilfully ignored.

Also, you can guarantee that if Gerrard gets dropped to CM against Stoke, and we don't win, there will be exactly as many posters, many of the them the same people, who will be slating Rafa to high heaven for 'breaking up Gerrard and Torres', who will no doubt repeatedly point out that 'Gerrard isn't a CM anymore' etc etc etc. There were loads of those kinds of posts against Sunderland last season, for example - or there were right up until we scored. As another example, there are a LOT of people who repeatedly suggest a 5-3-2 type formation, yet Rafa was absolutely lambasted for playing it against Pompey last season, even though we played perfectly well, dominating the match, using that system.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2009, 05:35:13 pm »
I haven't got 8 paragraphs to post, I ain't that eloquent, but what I have picked up over the odd game or two over the years around this time of the season, is that you can't lose a league after the first game of the season and you certainly can't win it . All I know is that you judge how you are after the league table takes some shape and that's usually comes after about 7-8 games. Now is not the time to be pointing fingers, drawing conclusion's and hitting the panic button, now is the time to back the team and the manger starting on Wednesday. They've all got there fair share of the "blame" (what an ugly word) from our lackluster display on Sunday but we have to put it to bed and back them, discussing about what should, could or would of happened to every last farts end is just going to get you all worked up, chill, it's only one game. We are all in this together, that's us and the team, so we win as a team and we lose as a team and in that unity is what makes champions, I know I've seen it.

 
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2009, 05:37:40 pm »
;D
I wouldn't go that far.
Thank god for that. I won't then ;)
While reading Shankslegend's post I was so annoyed by the shear arrogance and ignorance I decided to write a reply. After reading your post my reply has now been binned, you have said everything I wanted to say and more and with an eloquence that i couldn't match, the time and effort that you must have put into that post was well worth it, thank you
A pleasure, as always. Thanks for the feedback.
Flatters to achieve is an excellent phrase, particularly in its lesser known alternative meaning of farting without making a decent man sized sound.
Nice.

I've no problem with people flattering to either achieve or deceive me - as long as they don't ask me to chillax or take a s**ycation while doing it.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2009, 05:40:17 pm »
I haven't got 8 paragraphs to post, I ain't that eloquent, but what I have picked up over the odd game or two over the years around this time of the season, is that you can't lose a league after the first game of the season and you certainly can't win it . All I know is that you judge how you are after the league table takes some shape and that's usually comes after about 7-8 games. Now is not the time to be pointing fingers, drawing conclusion's and hitting the panic button, now is the time to back the team and the manger starting on Wednesday. They've all got there fair share of the "blame" (what an ugly word) from our lackluster display on Sunday but we have to put it to bed and back them, discussing about what should, could or would of happened to every last farts end is just going to get you all worked up, chill, it's only one game. We are all in this together, that's us and the team, so we win as a team and we lose as a team and in that unity is what makes champions, I know I've seen it.
Bang on. I mean, of course we're all going to react and discuss results whatever, but I agree completely - it's around 9 games in where I start making my first 'getting the big picture' type judgements on things. Even then, that's like a first lap time in a Grand Prix - an indicator of how 'on track' you are, but only an indicator. Plenty of pit stops, tyre changes and accidents to happen yet!
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Offline A Day 2 Remember

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2009, 05:49:05 pm »
Best post on the main forum for a long, long time.

I'd like to add another catergory or sub catergory under Arrogance.

I sense a level of entitlement amongst the knee jerk (referred to as KJ)crowd. It seems because the KJ poster feels that because he or she supports Liverpool the said team should win every game  and thus the chemical reaction that facilitates the KJ into making a post will be triggered by a loss or sometimes a tied game.
5th times a charm

I want to read about a Welshman reclaiming our Kop and over engineering songs we have nicked. Priorities guys

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2009, 05:51:44 pm »
Best post on the main forum for a long, long time.

I'd like to add another catergory or sub catergory under Arrogance.

I sense a level of entitlement amongst the knee jerk (referred to as KJ)crowd. It seems because the KJ poster feels that because he or she supports Liverpool the said team should win every game  and thus the chemical reaction that facilitates the KJ into making a post will be triggered by a loss or sometimes a tied game.
If you look at the 'negative twats annoy me' thread from last season, there's an excellent post regarding pride - pride leading to a sense of entitlement, pride being wounded leading to people getting angry at Rafa (EG my manc mate ripped me so now I rip Rafa type of thing). Spot on anyway, I quite agree.

Well, except for one tiny detail - I did give Arrogance it's own subsection (4) alongside ignorance :P ;)
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Offline eAyeAddio

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2009, 05:57:51 pm »


I really love the tactical stuff, etc..............




One-time Liverpool left back, Joey Jones, was asked by a journalist what tactics had been employed in a certain European Cup semi-final which Liverpool had comfortably won........

"Tactics, what tactics?   Bob Paisley just told us to go out there and win it.........."


I used to like it so much more when football was a simple game......... :-)


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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2009, 06:16:46 pm »
One-time Liverpool left back, Joey Jones, was asked by a journalist what tactics had been employed in a certain European Cup semi-final which Liverpool had comfortably won........

"Tactics, what tactics?   Bob Paisley just told us to go out there and win it.........."


I used to like it so much more when football was a simple game......... :-)
I think a massive, massive part of the genius of Shankly, Paisley and 'The Liverpool Way' of that era was that a lot of tactical thinking was disguised from the players because the training was so rigorous. Players often didn't need to be told how to play, come match day, because they'd just spent the past year in the reserves learning it by doing it.

However, in my view, it's a massive, massive myth, and indeed huge misunderstanding, that Liverpool's style of football or tactics were 'simple', and that it ultimately boiled down to letting good players play. The boot room - for example. Why keep all that knowledge, why seek out and invite other managers to discuss football, why keep dossiers detailing things like weather and pitch condition, if all of that knowledge was being ignored in favour of saying 'just go out and play son...'. Their genius was in being able to absorb and then train a lot of variables and tactical ideas in such a way that to the players it seemed like they weren't doing anything tactical at all, when in fact they were. the Liverpool side of the late 70's in particular was way ahead of it's time, tactically. So much so that a similar approach coupled with proper diet and more scientific fitness etc is still very close to how most of the very best teams have played - defense based on hard work and pressing, attack based on possession of the ball but with a willingess to go direct when needed or when the opening is there (it's not about the long ball or the short ball: it's about the right ball...), versatile players in every position (IE strikers who work and tackle, defenders who are comfortable on the ball) etc etc etc.

I know that we didn't apparently alter our approach much according to our opponents back in those days, but it surely did take a lot of time and effort on our approach to the game. It may have seemed simple to the players but, breaking it down, I'm not convinced!

Actually, can any older fans on the board shed some light on something for me:

You know shanks' famous, famous 'football is a simple game, aye terribly simple' quote?

It's always seemed to me that that's one of the great quotes taken totally out of context. It's that last 'terribly simple' bit to me - I've always imagined Shanks saying it with a bit of grit in his voice, that basically he was saying 'yes, it seems simple to you lot, but trust me - there's plenty to it.' IE I've always wondered if he wasn't saying that sarcastically...but having never heard him say it I just don't know. I'm honestly curious - can anyone shed some light on that? Was he being sarcastic, basically having a sly pop at the person asking him, or was it totally genuine at face value? Did Shankly honestly see the game as very simple, with not all that much to it? It's just never quite tallied with the whole 'boot-room' thing for me - so I've been curious about that for bloody ages.
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Offline Slave

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2009, 06:16:46 pm »
I think the trouble is some people are just emotionally immature. They can't stand losing. I was feeling a bit down after the Spurs game, obviously, but fuck it, it was good to see the boys back in action. Now, I'm looking forward to the Stoke game tomorrow night and win, lose or draw, I'll be looking forward to the Villa game on Monday.

I'm just great I suppose :D

Good post by the way Seb.
It is most odd.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2009, 06:20:01 pm »
I think the trouble is some people are just emotionally immature. They can't stand losing. I was feeling a bit down after the Spurs game, obviously, but fuck it, it was good to see the boys back in action. Now, I'm looking forward to the Stoke game tomorrow night and win, lose or draw, I'll be looking forward to the Villa game on Monday.

I'm just great I suppose :D

Good post by the way Seb.
Ah it's true, you are great. I love you dodgy ;)

I'm the same as it happens. Really looking forward to the Stoke game, It's great that we actually have a midweek game - really ideal. The one really great thing about an opening day defeat is that it doesn't take much good form for it to be pretty much forgotten about - not least because Spurs away has never (in my memory) been an easy fixture (on paper), even when Spurs have been properly shit.
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Offline Slave

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2009, 06:25:29 pm »
Ah it's true, you are great. I love you dodgy ;)

I'm the same as it happens. Really looking forward to the Stoke game, It's great that we actually have a midweek game - really ideal. The one really great thing about an opening day defeat is that it doesn't take much good form for it to be pretty much forgotten about - not least because Spurs away has never (in my memory) been an easy fixture (on paper), even when Spurs have been properly shit.

I tell you what if Utd had faced Spurs and we'd have faced Birmingham at home, I could see us being 3 points clear of them. They played no better than we did, it's just Spurs pressed like bastards in that first half, whereas Birmingham were frankly shit and sat off.

It's just the way these things go.
It is most odd.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2009, 06:42:14 pm »
I tell you what if Utd had faced Spurs and we'd have faced Birmingham at home, I could see us being 3 points clear of them. They played no better than we did, it's just Spurs pressed like bastards in that first half, whereas Birmingham were frankly shit and sat off.

It's just the way these things go.
Absolutely. Also Spurs are confident, fresh - I strongly suspect their players played fewer international minutes midweek, a big help when pressing - plus they've had the summer of 'Arry telling them how boss they all are and how much he loves them all just like his own liddle children. It's the same old 'arry and same old Spurs I reckon. They'll impress at home, and when they're on form, but 'arry also has big limitations that will cost them in the end. It boggles my mind, for example, that he's spent so much time tinkering with a strikeforce that, even when it was only Pav and Bent - was still one of their strong points (certainly Pav/Bent would have been fine if deployed in a 4-2-3-1 type set up, which would have suited a lot of their players very well I think). Instead, he's spent an absolute fortune turning them into what looks to me like a slightly inferior version of the team Jol built. In retrospect, had Jol been given the unquestioned backing 'Arry now enjoys, I reckon he'd have got them into the CL in one of those two seasons (given how desperate he was for left sided players that simply weren't bought for him). Also worth noting that Man Utd didn't win one single away game against last season's eventual top 8 - can't see that being vastly improved with Ronaldo out and Rooney playing more in the middle.

On a side note, it really does massively take the piss that this is our 8th tricky away opening day fixture in a row, while the Mancs seem to have been handed cushty home ties every bloody season. Mancs also would have won that second penalty - but never mind.

Actually, I'm really not too fussed about the game itself, in many ways. It's an easy one for me to put into the 'one of those days...' categories:

1) Lot's of people played shite.
2) That absurd collision.
3) The people who scored for them, FFS. Ekotto won't score again this season, most likely, and Bassong hardly made towering headers his trademark at Newcastle.
4) The clear penalty denied, and the handball coming well into the 'seen 'em given' category (indeed, the British press are still banging on about the Chelsea/Barca game, in which all but one of Chelsea's penno shouts was less convincing than that hand-ball, never mind the Voro foul).

All in all...meh...one of those things. Hopefully that's a good amount of our on-pitch karmic bad luck bank used up for a while.
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