Author Topic: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.  (Read 23079 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« on: August 18, 2009, 01:54:16 pm »
- Or, 'how I learned to stop worrying and love the Rafa...

1.   Change for Changes Sake:

After any defeat, after any bad result, come the calls for ‘change’. These calls usually come into two categories: The banging of a well worn drum of personal fan preference, or an entirely reactive suggestion based solely on the match gone by. The first category will be wheeled out regardless, but only after a bad result or mediocre performance. Often it barges into the room loudly wearing an enormous ‘told you so’ hat. Some common themes:

-   We should play 4-4-2.
-   Zonal marking.
-   Rotation.
-   Wingers need to hug the touchline.
-   Babel to play anywhere other than the position (LW/LF) he has spent most of his career in.

The beauty of this stance is that, with hindsight, it is always 100% correct. The Babel mover is apparently blind to Babel having looked every bit as shocking up front or down the right, or indeed the times he’s looked very dangerous down the left. The 4-4-2 fanatic never stops to consider why we (along with more or less the entire rest of the footballing world) abandoned this system long ago, what it’s limitations are, or indeed the problems this system can have when other teams apply it. I won’t go into them here, but suffice it to say I’ll be watching Man Utd with great interest, but I can also guarantee that very few pundits and fans would, at the end of the season, put any failure of theirs down to them switching to a 4-4-2. Nope, it will all be about Ronaldo – pure and simple. I can also guarantee that Rooney being switched to the middle will universally be regarded as a fantastic move, regardless of how he or Man Utd play.

Onto the second category, for me the more fun to watch. This is the category that sometimes produces some great and outlandish suggestions – Kuyt as a RB or DM, Agger as a DM, Gerrard or Babel as pretty much anything other than where they happened to play. Often this type of suggestion will be made in haste, briefly but enthusiastically discussed, then sadly forgotten, rarely to be spoken of again, as circumstances change. For example, calls for Gerrard to be moved to the right have largely been abandoned with Kuyt’s form in that role, but of course our current weakness in the centre means ‘Gerrard for CM’ is currently very much back in fashion. Of course, next time Gerrard actually does play CM (as he surely will at some point), you can guarantee that a bad result will lead to cries of ‘never again, Gerrard just isn’t a CM anymore...’ which will gain brief but enthusiastic attention, and round and round it goes again...

2.   Innate Conservatism:

One of the wonders of football fandom is how subheading 1, ‘change for change’s sake’ can be wholly compatible with 2, ‘Innate Conservatism’. It’s quite incredible really – and I’m sure you’ve all seen/heard/read this type of thing time and time again:

Quote
“It’s time Rafa stopped this rotation malarkey for good. He needs to settle on a side and a system and stick with it. I think he should go for *insert any formation that we don’t regularly play and change *insert names of regular players to either be dropped or shifted out of their preferred positions. He should then stick with that regardless, until either injury hits or our form becomes so appalling that I’m now fully satisfied that my idea won’t work after all.”

This aspect of fandom, it must be said, is particularly appalling in Great Britain. As a nation, we are completely obsessed with players, and have next to zero understanding of and appreciation for tactics. That’s not to say that there’s no appetite for it, but supply is sorely lacking. Considering the reams and reams written about football every single day, you will be lucky to find one decent article about tactics in any given month. Even then, these usually come in the form of interviews with coaches or sometimes players in the more geeky football publications, or a foreign paper/football magazine/program.

A lot of this feeds right into the kind of suggestions already mentioned in 1. People call for a 4-4-2 or and end to zonal marking largely because the media constantly paintthe former in a positive and the latter in a negative light, and very rarely look in depth at the strengths, weaknesses, assumptions and theories behind said system or formation or whatever. It’s simply taken as some kind of football gospel – until eventually the truth becomes so persuasive that even Man Utd start doing it openly and obviously, then it suddenly becomes the new orthodoxy. Undoubtedly rotation is getting this way – it’s in a state of transition. Where a mere two years ago it was the greatest evil and something Sir Fungus would never, ever do, footballing genius as he is. Two years of Fungus rotating like a member of a famously devout muslim sect (or dervish) now means rotation is the essential. Where two years ago it was all about your ‘best 11’, now it’s all about the ‘squad’ and ‘strength in depth’.

The media combined with the fans combined with, I’m afraid to say, a poor education system which shies away from actually teaching or often even discussing any type of critical thought (or the theories behind it) goes a long way towards creating a culture of ignorance. You see it everywhere, but it comes out more obviously in football than in most places. This is largely why 4-4-2 still reigns supreme in the national consciousness, even though it hasn’t reigned supreme on an actual football pitch for the best part of 40 years now.

3.   Blame Culture:

Of course, when knee-jerking it is not enough to merely spout one’s vitriol and leave it at that. The purple anger vein doesn’t get that uniquely satisfying throb-on unless there is a target – someone to blame. This generally comes down to the manager, though there are usually one or two players who become scapegoats for any bad performance, regardless of how they actually do. It used to be Kuyt, it’s currently Lucas – though Babel seems to have well and truly worn out his long standing credit and is in now serious danger of taking the young Brazilian’s place.

The striking thing about the blame culture is the lack of context, and again this is very much fueled by a media-culture which simply refuses to offer in depth explanations or reasoning for anything. If a concept can’t be expressed in an easy headline, then it won’t be expressed. Hence why you get: “Lucas was shite.” Rather than, for example: “The team around Lucas are still positioning themselves as if expecting those long balls from Xabi Alonso. The defence are also failing to take responsibility in that absence, and are hence hoofing it forwards rather than looking to build from the back, which leaves both Lucas and Mascherano isolated. This was compounded by poor performances up top, and the unwillingness of either Gerrard or Torres to step out of their usual roles a bit, coming closer to the midfield to receive the ball, but also enabling Lucas to go beyond them with his excellent ability to ghost into the box.” Or: “Rafa should have started player x and formation z, all our ills are his fault,” rather than: “Given the international break and our game coming up on Wednesday, Rafa picked player y and formation x, most likely to exploit z weakness in our opponents. Also, he couldn’t do this, that and the other, because of the many things happening off the pitch.”

That last is particularly staggering, and a real testament of the media and fans general inability to put things into context. Off pitch events, when they go on for long enough, simply cease to be a factor. In the short term: ‘Jol was undermined, no wonder their form suffered...’but in the longer term that somehow becomes ‘Rafa needs to concentrate on what happens on the pitch...’

Thus our off pitch situation becomes one of the main things fuelling the blame culture, of ‘Rafa should do xyz and is stupid for not doing it...’even though in this case, bizarrely, the real targets could not be more obvious, the real causes transparently clear. Still, it does make a kind of sense, when considered in the context of the weird ‘Pop-Idol’ era we are living in. To get rid of the owners is big, difficult, hard to see how it can be done – and even if it can be done, it’s a long process requiring sacrifice. The manager, however, even more so than the players, and far more than the owners, can provide a kind of immediate, instant gratification. Fans can get at the manager directly, and enough together can get a manager sacked very quickly indeed. This is of course a vicious and highly dangerous cycle – see Newcastle for potential consequences.

4.   Ignorance and Arrogance:

Though these are, of course, very seperate states of mind they belong together here simply because they so often go together, like bacon and eggs. Whether it comes from insecurity or over-confidence remains unclear, but what is clear is this truth: “Empty vessels make the loudest noise.” One of those rare catch-phrases that is both informative and highly accurate.

By and large this article has steered clear of specifics, but for this section I simply have to turn to a particular thread on the main board because it sums up this particular issue to perfection:

“Why is it us fans can see the problems but Rafa cant”(sic).

First, Ignorance:

-   The massive assumption that Rafa can’t see the problems that fans tend to make the most noise about, not least because these same problems tend to be plastered all over the Sunday/Monday newspapers in a massive typeface whenever we have a bad result or performance.
-   The idea that Rafa’s proximity to the players and inner workings of the club doesn’t really mean that much, namely that ‘us fans’ can see as much, or enough of, what’s going on to have a comparable knowledge base to the manager.
-   That Rafa isn’t, due to his ability as a manger and serious intelligence, able to see problems, or aspects to obvious problems, that the vast majority of fans wouldn’t have a clue even exist, let alone how to solve them – even on the rather large assumption that those fans could even understand the complexities of the issue.

Then, Arrogance:

-   ‘Us’ fans can see the problems. ‘Us’ fans (meaning, obviously, the poster himself) know our stuff, ‘we’ are right, ergo Rafa must be ‘wrong’.
-   ‘We’ are in a position to see all the problems. ‘We’ know everything/enough about the club that we know better than Rafa.
-   ‘We’ have a comparable intelligence and football knowledge to Rafa, who has degrees in sports subjects, has worked in football his entire adult life and who has sought out and studied under the most talented managers In the modern era (like Sacchi).
-   The problems ‘we’ can see are in fact the actual problems, and ‘our’ solutions would actually solve them.

To compound all this (as is so often the case) the article in question isn’t even well written. Now, I am by no means a grammar bore, and I personally can’t stand it when points get ignored because the poster has misplaced an apostrophe. On the other hand, those posters aren’t usually taking a very conscious ‘I know best’ position, and they are usually not writing articles either.

In this case, it just adds the icing to the cake that someone who, whether consciously or not, is basically accusing Rafa of being a moron who doesn’t even have the intelligence of the average fan, Rafa, who of course is highly educated, intelligent, literate, sharp and witty, leaves the apostrophe off ‘can’t’ and the question mark off the end of the sentence. In short, someone with a questionable grasp of the question mark sees no problem whatsoever in doubting the intelligence and ability of a man who has eat, slept and breathed football for almost half a century. The mind truly boggles.

5.   I’m right, full stop:

Perhaps most important of all, though, is the sense of certainty that comes across in nearly all knee-jerking type posts. Regardless of evidence, circumstance or precedent, the poster is always, always, always right. Even when they are completely wrong, they are right. The fanatic of ‘4-4-2 with Gerrard in the middle’ can’t be swayed by the disappearance of 4-4-2 in the rest of the footballing world. Our own less than stellar performances employing exactly this system with Gerrard in that role can be safely ignored – they simply didn’t happen. If a match is played with all the knee-jerking posters suggestions, and it goes horribly – does this force a rethink? Some kind of re-assessment? Never. In that case either some outside agency comes into play (the referee, poor individual performances, in short, all of the myriad reasons and explanations so vehemently rejected by the knee-jerker while they were advocating their pet theory suddenly take on paramount importance) or the whole episode is simply blacked out and forgotten about.

Regardless of the suggestion in question the most important thing is the unimpeachable ‘rightness’ of the poster. To admit mistakes, to admit one has areas where the bright light of footballing intellect does not reach, simply cannot be allowed. I’ve no idea why. Maybe being wrong reduces masculinity or something…perhaps by releasing Oestrogen into the bloodstream? Maybe a study could be carried out?

6.   In conclusion:

Put simply, reactive thinking is rarely useful or productive. Even less productive is the mindset of having pre-conceived ideas about what should happen on a football pitch, against which any manager or player is judged. Of course, we all have preferences, but what I mean is that, for example, if someone is obsessed with us playing a 3-5-2 with Gerrard as a RWB and ‘Nando in the hole, (to take an obviously exaggerated example) then their Liverpool supporting life will be one of continual disappointment and quite possible anger.

Is it not preferable, instead of ‘telling’ Rafa what he ‘should’ be doing, to try and understand why he might be doing the things he is doing? In my case, a certain Paul Tomkins opened my mind to thinking like this about Rafa a number of years ago, especially in terms of things like rotation and zonal marking. Ever since, I’ve found supporting the team and manager a much less frustrating experience (as opposed to thinking about off pitch stuff, the fans and media which remains intensely frustrating). I’ve found that Liverpool’s development over the last few years, instead of being a series of disappointments, sources of anger and confusion and ‘shoulda, woulda, coulda’s’ has seemed perfectly coherent, a clear jigsaw taking shape where all it needed was someone to start me off with a corner piece. Also, by trying to understand Rafa’s methods, and trying to apply that thinking, defeats aren’t always a complete disaster, but can also be a learning experience, bringing up sets of questions rather than problems, and interesting potential solutions to ponder, rather than dark clouds on the horizon to worry about.

For me, it’s not about ‘In Rafa I Trust’, or ‘On Rafa I Lay the Blame’, neither makes me feel wholly comfortable. But, ‘About Rafa I Try to Learn…’ as a broad approach, has not only helped me feel better about what I see on the pitch from Liverpool, it’s massively increased my enjoyment of football on the whole, shifted my thinking to seeing potential weakness in systems and tactics rather than just ‘player x is better than player y’, and increased my contempt for the British media even further – and if there’s one thing in this world a person simply cannot have enough of – it’s contempt for the British media.
 



« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:59:11 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline cornelius

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 02:14:11 pm »
I reckon 85 points will win the league this time. The way I see it, if we win tomorrow we'll be on course for 88!!!

Ignore the naysayers.

Offline xabi rules

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 02:15:43 pm »
We're still on course for 111 points
'' I'd like to think that I have put more into the game than I have taken out. And that I haven‘t cheated anybody, that I've been working for people honestly all along the line, for the people of Liverpool who go to Anfield. I'd like to be recognised for trying to give them entertainment.''

The great Bill Shankly

Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 02:17:39 pm »
Having not read the OP, I have decided to neither agree nor disagree.
It was a poor performance, they happen, Bring on Stoke!
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Offline Shaun101

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 02:18:13 pm »
I reckon 85 points will win the league this time. The way I see it, if we win tomorrow we'll be on course for 88!!!

Ignore the naysayers.

Results comparison are exactly the same - two one defeat to spurs away- get a win tomorrow and we are two points up on last year.

ever the optimist that I am


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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 02:21:33 pm »
This aspect of fandom, it must be said, is particularly appalling in Great Britain. As a nation, we are completely obsessed with players, and have next to zero understanding of and appreciation for tactics. That’s not to say that there’s no appetite for it, but supply is sorely lacking. Considering the reams and reams written about football every single day, you will be lucky to find one decent article about tactics in any given month.

Very true that para. Forums can be an excellent place for discussion of tactics but this site in particular has become top heavy with reactionary posters who contradict themselves by changing opinion based on the previous result.

Also agree that the focus of the game is now celebrity driven. We tend to see players not teams now and you will frequently read pages and pages of why one player or another is the specific problem when there's actually 11 of them on the pitch trying to work together.

A nice calming read that mate. Cheers.

Offline slyweezle

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 02:23:42 pm »
Absolute cracker of a post mate. You've broken down the knee-jerker's mentality spot on there.

Offline arisesirrafa

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 02:27:10 pm »
A really good post. I don't agree with all of it (some people that criticise players, systems etc. have felt that way for months/years and are therefore not knee-jerking), but at least you've put a hell of a lot of thought into it.
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Offline Old No7

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 02:33:06 pm »
quality post.

it never ceases to amaze me how people think we should change everything over a single result/performance

Offline RedMarko

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 02:36:23 pm »
Excellent read mate - a lot of good points.
 
Without taking away from it, there is a lot of obvious points in there too. But you collate them well. And just because is is obvious, does not make it any less worthwhile to point out  ;)
 
Unfortunaltey I can see a lot of the subjects of this post, i.e. the knee-jerk types, either ignoring it because it is too long, or responding with arguements against the examples you have used for tactics/formations etc.
 
 
There is no telling some people  :(

Offline thediscobison

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 02:37:39 pm »
Fantastic writing.  :wellin

Sums up a lot of my thoughts too.

Isn't it a bit early in the season for this? Like I saw some of the knee jerking but shouldn't we wait two months before it gets really bad before we come out all guns blazing against the negativity? Or you just trying to nip it in the bud early this year?

Offline Pr0n

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 02:47:43 pm »
A really good post. I don't agree with all of it (some people that criticise players, systems etc. have felt that way for months/years and are therefore not knee-jerking), but at least you've put a hell of a lot of thought into it.

The thing I've noticed though.. is that if you have a set opinion about perceived weaknesses e.t.c. More often than not you are looking for any excuse to jump at the chance to get to wear the big fat "told you so" - hat. And wear the blindfold to anything that might not go in line with that mindset. Which HBHR points out well in his post.

Good post, by the way!
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Offline the_prodigal_s0n

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 02:48:00 pm »
Top thread. It's really what's needed now. The sad fact is that the UK football culture, as you've stated, breeds this ignorance. Very few papers have much to say about the tactics of any given game and instead seek to undermine the manager when things are going badly. It's an easy headline.

As fans we are far more arrogant than we should be. Our status as 'fans' makes many of us believe that we understand what is going on and our opinion thus deserves to be heard. In no other area of life would such an expert's view be scrutinised.

Let's say you do Biology up to GCSE level and get a poor grade in it. Would you then feel you have any right to go into a surgery in a hospital and start barking orders at a surgeon? Would you fuck. But, sadly, that's what is constantly happening in regards to football.

Offline Greg

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 02:50:49 pm »
The first 4 replies to this post have confused me. Are they examples of knee jerk responses? Having actually read the post, I feel they have blatantly and totally missed the whole point of the post. The fact that the first reply seems to ignore the content of the OP, and then the next 3 replies address that reply - rather than the excellently written OP - is nothing short of embarrassing.

Anyway, it's an excellent post and I would love the knee-jerkers to read it and learn something from it. But it's obvious that they either won't read it, or they won't understand it. And even if they do, they won't take any notice of it.

Hesbighesred - What I would like you to address is ShanksLegend's justification of his views. He claimed that other matchgoers also felt the same way he did

By the crys and moans at yesterdays match by the fans i feel and hope i speak for us all.

My post was an honest assesment on behalf of most people there yesterday, by all accounts

am just giving an honest assessment from yesterday and the views of a lot of people we spoke to and these views matched my own.

I began to question ShanksLegend's views when I was reading his post, but I was horrified to read that the WHOLE away end agreed with him. Is he exagerrating? Are ALL the away end wrong? Are they all kneejerkers?

Offline carling

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 02:53:17 pm »
Good piece but definitely taking 'superfanism' to a whole new level.

Offline Hazell

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 02:54:48 pm »
Great post hesbighesred. Especially agree with thinking about why Rafa does the things he does and usually, I find myself agreeing, or at least understanding, even after a defeat/poor performance.

Found it sad with regards to te number of new posts that cropped up on Sunday/Monday.
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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 02:55:20 pm »
Good piece but definitely taking 'superfanism' to a whole new level.

Hmm - that confuses me;
 
1) what is 'superfanism'?
 
2) If it's a 'good piece' does that mean you are in favour of this 'superfanism' whatever that is?

Offline RedChanel

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 02:58:26 pm »
Boss post. Agree with every word of it. I am in no position to criticise Rafa but only try to understand the rationale behind his actions and decisions.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2009, 02:58:46 pm »
Thanks for the feedback folks.

@Gareth:

Spot on. I really love the tactical stuff, but people like Jonathan Wilson are a rare and shining light in British journalism. Pleat's now lost his job - so there goes the one single only commentator on TV who actually tells me things happening on the pitch that I don't know - but really want to learn, because I'm not a football manager, and it's lovely when someone points out that, say, the team is now defending better because the full backs have been tucked in or whatever.

It's so clear talking to foreign fans, or the foreign fans who post on here - much more focussed on how a player will fit into a system, actual thought and reasons behind performances rather than 'player is shite'. Aristea (spelling?) that Roma girl who's posted a lot on Aquilani is a great example. She seems a perfectly average, passionate sort of fan, but short though her posts largely were they generally included context and detail, an awareness of his strengths and weaknesses and how they might fit for us rather than Roma - an awareness of how Spalletti works etc etc etc. Same poster here would be focussing just on his personal strengths and weaknesses, tactics of future and former club would barely even be mentioned.

@arisesirrafa:

I know what your saying, and of course the danger in writing a general aticle is that it casts a wide net that catches specifics. I've got, and never had or would have, any problem with people discussing a 4-4-2, or Benayoun in CM to use another example. It's just it's all about context, and the tone of the post in question. If it comes from curiosity, from a desire to learn, then it's always great - but all too often (indeed nearly always, especially after a bad result) it comes in the guise of 'rafa SHOULD do xyz, he is WRONG for not doing it, wheras I am RIGHT'. Yet the staggering insight of said poster never seems able to take in examples that contradict what they are saying, even if they were clearly on show in literally the last game we played.

It's particularly good with back to back bad results because you can actually see it happening. Some poster who last week was putting our failure squarely on Benayoun not having started, Lucas being in midfield and no partner for Torres will a week later be fuming at the sheer staggering idiocy of starting Benayoun, how shite Gerrard was in CM and that 'Torres just can't play with a partner...look at Spain'. The good ship ignorance sails straight and true - no matter how choppy the waters.

@The discobon -

hehe. I see what you're saying, but in this case the article just flowed. Strike when the iron's hot and all that...

Also, the sheer number of articles and comments in the wake of the Spurs game seems impressive to me even by RAWK standards. I would have thought one game would be taken with a bit more perspective. Of course, as people have said fat chance that any actual knee-jerkers will both read this AND take notice, but then so it goes. You never know. Maybe one or two will read and have a re-think, that's essentially what happened to me reading Tomkins.

Oh and:
Having not read the OP, I have decided to neither agree nor disagree.
:)
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Offline arisesirrafa

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2009, 02:58:51 pm »
Another point is that we would have had just as many people on here saying how we're going to win the league this season etc. if we'd played really well and beaten Spurs. They wouldn't have been dismissed as knee-jerkers (certainly the 'in' phrase isn't it?!) simply because theirs was a positive, rather than negative, reaction.

In reality, it's knee-jerk to go overboard either way after 90 mins of football. The long-term view of things tells us that Benitez has improved us year on year. The loss of Alonso and a relative lack of resources means he'll find it harder to achieve this time, but I wouldn't put it past him.
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Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2009, 02:59:13 pm »
I sometimes question the age of a lot of the posters on here as some seem immature and cannot engage in a debate, and as you say, they just say x y or z is shite and offer no credible reason for that conclusion ,they must be shite because all my mates say so, they don't stop to think if a particular players ineffectiveness is to do with other factors on the pitch. Saying all that, babel was shocking on sunday !!!

Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2009, 03:00:02 pm »
Very true that para. Forums can be an excellent place for discussion of tactics but this site in particular has become top heavy with reactionary posters who contradict themselves by changing opinion based on the previous result.
What sums it up for me is that the BBC website employs Lee Dixon to explain how 'Rafa lost the tactical battle' against Spurs.

Lee Dixon as a tactics expert? Give me strength.

Offline carling

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2009, 03:00:49 pm »

Hmm - that confuses me;
 
1) what is 'superfanism'?
 
2) If it's a 'good piece' does that mean you are in favour of this 'superfanism' whatever that is?

1) A word I just made up to describe the concept of a superfan.  :)
2) Look up the word 'but'

I agree with a lot of what HBHR said but I just don't like the increasing snobbery between fans, I suppose it does help if we can point people in the right direction but things are always going to be said when frustrated with bad results.

Offline Miguel Sanchez

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2009, 03:01:12 pm »
An absolutely top quality post mate. Really enjoyable read.



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Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2009, 03:01:22 pm »
What sums it up for me is that the BBC website employs Lee Dixon to explain how 'Rafa lost the tactical battle' against Spurs.

Lee Dixon as a tactics expert? Give me strength.
The BBC site is shite and the 606 board is just a place for rival fans to slag eachother off.

Offline ErinMc66

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2009, 03:01:30 pm »
Absolutely SUPERB post!   I hope everyone will read it.  Sadly, I imagine those most in need won't bother.  But it was outstanding.  Thank you, hesbighesred!
"I don’t think I’ll ever leave . . . though to be honest I’ve never picked up the Sunday papers and seen, ‘Jamie Carragher is wanted by X’. That’d be nice, you know, just for a little ego boost . . . could it be arranged? I see other players, ‘Real Madrid want so and so’ and you think, ‘He’s f****** crap! Him?!'”

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2009, 03:02:30 pm »
The thing I've noticed though.. is that if you have a set opinion about perceived weaknesses e.t.c. More often than not you are looking for any excuse to jump at the chance to get to wear the big fat "told you so" - hat. And wear the blindfold to anything that might not go in line with that mindset. Which HBHR points out well in his post.

Good post, by the way!
Exactly, yet funnily enough it never applies the other way. You never see legions of 'Gerrard at CM' posters justifying/retracting/whatever their views if we've just had a shocking game with Gerrard at the heart of it playing abysmally in CM (which has happened many times).

Again, not to say that Gerrard should never ever be played there, but then that's the thing - I personally really like Rafa's 'horses for courses' approach is brilliant, and am very suspicious of what you might call 'football fundamentalism', IE that there's one style of play/formation/set of players that is superior in all circumstances and must not be deviated from. Indeed, if there were anything approaching such a system, how could football possibly be such a wonderfully varied sport in terms of formations and playing styles etc?
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Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2009, 03:02:38 pm »
Absolutely SUPERB post!   I hope everyone will read it.  Sadly, I imagine those most in need won't bother.  But it was outstanding.  Thank you, hesbighesred!
A hell of a lot won't read it because they've got the attention span of a goldfish,it's too darn long !!!

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2009, 03:03:16 pm »
Good read that, nice one.

Apart from there being no such term as 'knee-jerk thinking', and the amount of times I read the made up word 'knee-jerkers' does my head in.
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Offline flying red

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2009, 03:03:17 pm »
Great post.  You're spot on about the media being obsessed with personality/celebrity and absolutely mute on tactics.

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2009, 03:06:01 pm »
Being in the away end and dissapointed about the result (and the way of the result) is one thing. Making an in-depth analysis of it another.. And it can be really heard to be so cool headed as to try and avoid preconceptions, go trough the whole game again e.t.c. Anger is f.i. not a good thing when trying to analyse the details of how a defeat came to be - amidst the action, in an agitated state it's very, very easy to overlook important factors.

In a match-thread, knee-jerking is perfectly understandable. So is knee-jerking matchgoers..
It's not a bad thing either, during the game - unless the crowd starts to turn against their own f.i.
Being cool and analyzing is not very good for the atmosphere, in the stadium!

It's a problem if you couple that in-game agitation with "I/we know best" - mentality though.
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Offline the_prodigal_s0n

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2009, 03:07:58 pm »
Spot on. I really love the tactical stuff, but people like Jonathan Wilson are a rare and shining light in British journalism. Pleat's now lost his job - so there goes the one single only commentator on TV who actually tells me things happening on the pitch that I don't know - but really want to learn, because I'm not a football manager, and it's lovely when someone points out that, say, the team is now defending better because the full backs have been tucked in or whatever.
Yeah, it's great listening to or reading the views of people who actually know what they're talking about. It's really sad that Pleat is no longer commentating, but there isn't really a market for his type of commentary in England. People would much rather listen to phone-in shows or people who shout a lot and make controversial statements with no basis like Paul Merson.

To cite an example, I remember watching the analysis after a Euro 2008 game. The two people analysing the match were Andy Townsend and David Moyes. As much as I don't like Moyes I was interested in hearing his opinion as he was the manager of a team in the top division. However, whenever Moyes began to make a point Townsend would cut across him and make his own ill educated point, and I consequently got to hear very little of what an actual expert thought of the game. That pretty much sums up British football journalism and analysis for me.

Offline ErinMc66

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2009, 03:09:21 pm »
And I'm going to send this to Aristeia to make sure she sees the kudos.  I have been so thrilled to find a fellow female Liverpool supporter with whom I can actually talk football and not just who has the cutest bum.    ;D

(Oh, and that is not intended to apply to other female RAWK members who are quite knowledgeable...simply that I have had the opportunity to become friends with her IRL.)
"I don’t think I’ll ever leave . . . though to be honest I’ve never picked up the Sunday papers and seen, ‘Jamie Carragher is wanted by X’. That’d be nice, you know, just for a little ego boost . . . could it be arranged? I see other players, ‘Real Madrid want so and so’ and you think, ‘He’s f****** crap! Him?!'”

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2009, 03:14:30 pm »
1) A word I just made up to describe the concept of a superfan.  :)
2) Look up the word 'but'

I agree with a lot of what HBHR said but I just don't like the increasing snobbery between fans, I suppose it does help if we can point people in the right direction but things are always going to be said when frustrated with bad results.
I don't know if snobbery's the right word...or at least, I don't think I'm being snobby if I'm pointing out that someone is talking shite. To put it another way, everyone has the right to their views, and this is a great place to express them. However, in putting your views out you are also signing a sort of contract, in which you are inviting other people to also respond to those views. In that context, I don't see how it's snobby to point out obvious examples of the type of shite people spout again and again.

To an extent I really hate that 'superfan' tag as well. It's a handy tag, that has some merit, but actually describes such a tiny minority of people that it almost has no meaning. There are very, very few fans who actually follow with blind faith, criticising nothing, supporting the manager and players in everything all the time, yet the way that term is used, it's as if there's legions and legions of 'superfans', kind of like evangelical christians, dominating the airwaves and suffocating the views of anyone who dares criticise. Hence, I dislike it because it seems to me, if anything, that it's the complete other way around in this country. Thought, reflection, analysis - all drowned out by the loud voices of the ignorant knee-jerkers, all feeding on and fed by the media.

BBC today is a classic example, that McNulty (and he's by no means a bad football writer by the standard of his peers), having tipped us for the title a week or two ago, is immediately blogging about how Rafa has a big job on and changes need to be made blah blah blah after one game - one game which we could well have lost even with everyone fit and playing well, given how tricky a tie it was, and one in which our CB pairing managed to effectively take itself out of the game after 30 minutes. Suddenly we have a gaping hole where Alonso was, and the previous 20/30 minutes of midfield dominance we enjoyed are long forgotten. The key thing is, whether you write a positive piece or negative, context, tactics, analysis, research - can, indeed must be ignored. All that matters is provoking 'reaction', and it's the knee-jerk crowd that are by far the easiest to play to, and the most responsive when the right buttons are pressed.


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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2009, 03:20:38 pm »
Another point is that we would have had just as many people on here saying how we're going to win the league this season etc. if we'd played really well and beaten Spurs. They wouldn't have been dismissed as knee-jerkers (certainly the 'in' phrase isn't it?!) simply because theirs was a positive, rather than negative, reaction.

In reality, it's knee-jerk to go overboard either way after 90 mins of football. The long-term view of things tells us that Benitez has improved us year on year. The loss of Alonso and a relative lack of resources means he'll find it harder to achieve this time, but I wouldn't put it past him.
Is a fair point. There's no doubt terms like 'knee-jerk' get overwhelmingly thrown at negative posts, and there's no doubt that happy clappy posters can sometimes get away with some real consistent shite by being positive all the time.

Mind you, that said, it's also fair to say that the massively vast majority of ignorant, annoying or just shite posts/posters are negative. For whatever reason blame and criticism seems to be a much more natural and easy avenue for twats to travel down than rose-tinted 'everything's sunshine and roses'. So I must admit, I personally rarely go off on shite positive posts, simply because I find even the shite ones to generally be a nice change of atmosphere, given that we are only ever one 'bad' result (and shit, this happens even after we win sometimes) from an absolute slurry of crap being spread all over the media.
And I'm going to send this to Aristeia to make sure she sees the kudos.  I have been so thrilled to find a fellow female Liverpool supporter with whom I can actually talk football and not just who has the cutest bum.    ;D

(Oh, and that is not intended to apply to other female RAWK members who are quite knowledgeable...simply that I have had the opportunity to become friends with her IRL.)
Good for you, and feel free! Incidentally, does either of you have a cute bum? ;)
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Offline Dick Emery

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2009, 03:24:19 pm »
It's not knee-jerk to be very worried after a lifeless performance, a weaker squad and a fairly dismal pre-season. In fact, it demonstrates a flippancy that borders on mindlessness to be unworried. I'm pretty sure that Rafa is extremely worried too as, as pointed out, he's no mug.

Offline Redondo

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2009, 03:25:50 pm »
Everyone should read this post. Magnificent.

You spelt 'weird' wrong though.

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2009, 03:25:55 pm »
Good read that, nice one.

Apart from there being no such term as 'knee-jerk thinking', and the amount of times I read the made up word 'knee-jerkers' does my head in.
What would you call it out of curiosity? Is there a better term that isn't extremely unwieldy and clunky to type?

Personally, I always love using new/made-up/slang words as long as they quickly and clearly express a concept better than other words. Though I must admit some make me fume - like 'staycation'. I'm enfuriated to the point of axe-murdering anyone who actually says that rectal discharge of a word.

It's a FUCKING HOLIDAY. Whether you stay home or not, you infuriating twat. Especially if you're not even staying at home, but going to Cornwall or some shit. IT'S STILL CALLED A FUCKING HOLIDAY. But that's for the Grifter thread. Ahem, apologies.

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Offline ErinMc66

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2009, 03:29:09 pm »
Incidentally, does either of you have a cute bum? ;)

Well of course we both do!!   :moon

"I don’t think I’ll ever leave . . . though to be honest I’ve never picked up the Sunday papers and seen, ‘Jamie Carragher is wanted by X’. That’d be nice, you know, just for a little ego boost . . . could it be arranged? I see other players, ‘Real Madrid want so and so’ and you think, ‘He’s f****** crap! Him?!'”

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Re: An in-depth look at knee-jerk thinking.
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2009, 03:30:01 pm »
Good, very clear, and well set out views there.  Cheers.

One of the best things about this site is that you can actually get into tactical discussions with people from time to time and learn from other's perspectives of the game.  And it is true that this does increase the enjoyment of the game that much more.  The shame is that much of this gets buried in some utter twattage from many which then discourages others to take up any serious writing or analysis.

P.S. Bloody hell, 10,000 posts.