Surely that is the exact definition of what happened in the Europa Cup Final. An absolute implosion, with Kolo, ironically for this discussion being ex-Arsenal, being the only one coming away with any credit.
This season we've seen Arsenal have the most late winners and comebacks I've seen for years, nor to mention the first cup we had in years had to come from being behind. I don't think the team is mentally fragile, or bottlers, I think the tactics are unsuited for big cup games.
Yeah you could say that about the EL final last year. Or you could say Moreno was just being his usual self, being exposed and exploited. It happens to him in run of the mill league games, it happens to him against The Dog and Duck in the League Cup and FA Cup and it happened to him in the EL Final. Anyway, like I said,
if that kind of thing keeps happening to us, then by all means call us bottlers, we'd probably deserve it.
As I mentioned a few posts above, labelling Arsenal "bottlers" probably isn't fair any more. My examples (Gallas, 2003, Euro failure even when you had a good team, etc) were just explaining why as a club with this manager you've got this reputation.
No, that doesn't wash. Liverpool have had some fantastic sides in that run from Torres and prime Gerrard to the genius of Luis Suarez. Liverpool have bottled games for years which they should win easily against league cannon fodder.
I don't think you understand the difference between bottling and not being good enough. Yep, the team with Torres, Gerrard, Alonso, etc, was fucking amazing. They'd wipe the floor with any team in the league today, of that I have no doubt. But they just happened to be in a league with probably the best Man Utd team in their history. Peak Cristiano Ronaldo (peak Cristiano fucking Ronaldo!), peak Rooney, peak Tevez, the best centre back partnership in premier league history, a world class keeper, a world class left back, Paul Scholes. They were fucking good. So our brilliant team not being able to catch one of the best teams in the history of English football isn't a case of bottling it, the Mancs were probably just that little bit better. The only small-fry we failed to beat in that run in was the time Arshavin scored 4
Likewise in 2014, Suarez was ideed a genius. But Man City were better. When we were running on fumes we had to bring on Aspas. They brought on Dzecko. They scored 103 goals. That's not performing beneath abilities, that's finishing runner up to the better team.
An example of bottling if you need one. The 2002-2003 Arsenal team was by far the best in the league in terms of quality. They had an 8pt lead in March. They went on to be caught by an inferior Man Utd team during the high pressure business end of the season. That's what bottling is.
And I'd say that's fair comment. Much in the same way, throughout most of the years, we've simply not been good enough either. First Utd, then Chelsea & latterly City have had more money, better teams & better squads. Of course, you guys have punctured that a few years, in the better Benitez days & Rodgers days, but you have the same problem as us, there's bigger or richer guys out there.
Don't get me wrong, I question the mentality often still. But i think it's wrong just to label every defeat as bottling it. How to quantify it anyway? Do you just dismiss all the comebacks, all the late equalisers or winners in games you've won & only count games where you've been beat?
Yeah I agree, more often than not better teams beat Arsenal to the league so it's not bottling. In an earlier post I had a go at Wenger for not finishing above Leicester, despite being the only top club not in flux, and also for not beating Monaco. I don't think it's because he's a bottler, I just think that those are examples of why he's
probably not a good enough manager to win the PL or CL any more. As long as it's not at our expense, I'd love for him to prove me wrong as he's one of football's good guys and I don't mind Arsenal as much as the others.