Topic: Harvey Elliott (Harvey Daniel James Elliott)

[killer-heels]

Is it just me that doesn't seem at all convinced by him?
His complete lack of physicality or speed means he will rarely win duels or take a man on.
Technically decent but don't see him scoring or assisting, more of a tidy player that isn't influencing the game

Carvalho should be ahead of him for me

Yeah I am not convinced. He is neat and tidy but what does he actually do? He hardly protects Trent, Salah is further away from the goal, it’s like we have decided that keeping a nice trio on that right side with our two best attacking players is going to free up space for others.

[KillieRed]

Our best player tonight, impressive in adversity.

[tubby]

He's a 10, play him as one.  We have a proper striker now, drop him in behind him and let Harvey create for the 3 forwards.

[tunred]

he's a talent no doubt about that. But I feel like he needs to go on loan at another prem club. Instead we're putting so much pressure on him playing him with milners at old trafford...

[DarkOfTheManatee]

Is it just me that doesn't seem at all convinced by him?
His complete lack of physicality or speed means he will rarely win duels or take a man on.
Technically decent but don't see him scoring or assisting, more of a tidy player that isn't influencing the game

Carvalho should be ahead of him for me

I thought he was one of the only players who looked dangerous today, and think it'd be an even more positive story if he was stepping into a functioning midfield rather than essentially being relied upon to be the creative fulcrum at 19 since our full backs are out of form and Thiago is injured. And despite the shambles around him he still played a few good passes than opened up the Man Utd defence.

[Dave McCoy]

He's not a midfielder. He has no transitional awareness. None.

[jooneyisdagod]

Yeah I am not convinced. He is neat and tidy but what does he actually do? He hardly protects Trent, Salah is further away from the goal, it’s like we have decided that keeping a nice trio on that right side with our two best attacking players is going to free up space for others.

Yeah. I would love for him to grow into the role but at the moment, he (and everyone else) just looks slow and cumbersome.

[Guz-kop]

He's 19 so basically gets a free pass in these situations unless he does something mad, which he didn't. Not sure he can protect Trent as well as needed on that side and he absolutely needs forwards running in behind. Felt like Bobby sometimes got in his way. Thought he did ok to be honest

[OOS]

He's 19 so basically gets a free pass in these situations unless he does something mad, which he didn't. Not sure he can protect Trent as well as needed on that side and he absolutely needs forwards running in behind. Felt like Bobby sometimes got in his way. Thought he did ok to be honest

I've seen many Liverpool players go to Old Trafford and shit thier kecks over the years. The first 30 mins flew past him, but he kept going and shown glimpses of what he can do. Still think in the long run, that RCM position can be his.

[MonsLibpool]

He was one of our best players.

[amir87]

He was one of our best players.

So was Mane and he left 6 weeks ago.

[Keith Lard]

Even in a hard night like tonight I think he oozes class. I think he could do with a goal though as he snatches a bit in the final third right now, which will stop when he gets a goal or two

[Nick110581]

He is very David Silva like, works well with combinations has a great first touch and wonderful passing ability. He doesn’t have great physicality but in a team that is firing at all cylinders he would be a great asset, he has potential to be a huge creative force going forward.

David Silva was one of the best PL players ever

Elliott is ok - has a lot to learn

[PEG2K]

I've seen many Liverpool players go to Old Trafford and shit thier kecks over the years. The first 30 mins flew past him, but he kept going and shown glimpses of what he can do. Still think in the long run, that RCM position can be his.

Problem is he's not a RCM. I said this last game and this game it happened again. The problem with playing Eliott is, it completely dis-balances the midfield.

Our midfield system is one 6 and two 8s. But here's his heat maps of the last two games:


As you can see, he's playing like a RM, not a RCM. He doesn't track back as much or help us control the midfield like what our usual 8s do. To compensate for that, our LCM the last two games (Milner) has to be all over the pitch covering for him instead of staying more on the central left side:


You'd think maybe we played 4231? Nope we didn't. Because in that case Eliott would be the roaming CAM while Salah and Diaz would be deeper. So basically, we were playing a fucked up 4213 formation where Eliott spent the game in Salah's position (albeit slightly deeper), and our two other midfielders (Hendo/Fab and Milner) had to do the job of a 3-man midfield.

[Samie]

David Silva was one of the best PL players ever

Elliott is ok - has a lot to learn

Someone plays like Messi, doesn't mean they're as good as Messi does it? But you can play like him.

[killer-heels]

Yeah i dont get this system.

[wampa1]

Where did he play when on loan?

[Dave McCoy]

Problem is he's not a RCM. I said this last game and this game it happened again. The problem with playing Eliott is, it completely dis-balances the midfield.

Our midfield system is one 6 and two 8s. But here's his heat maps of the last two games:


As you can see, he's playing like a RM, not a RCM. He doesn't track back as much or help us control the midfield like what our usual 8s do. To compensate for that, our LCM the last two games (Milner) has to be all over the pitch covering for him instead of staying more on the central left side:


You'd think maybe we played 4231? Nope we didn't. Because in that case Eliott would be the roaming CAM while Salah and Diaz would be deeper. So basically, we were playing a fucked up 4213 formation where Eliott spent the game in Salah's position (albeit slightly deeper), and our two other midfielders (Hendo/Fab and Milner) had to do the job of a 3-man midfield.

Hendo was doing this last season though when he played as RCM. The RCM is essentially our 4th attacker who is supposed to continually rotate around a triangle with Salah and Trent to overload that side of the defense. This then leaves the LCM and DM to cover, win the ball and recycle it. The issue today was not so much in what Elliott was doing but in what Milner was not doing and that was basically any of the previously mentioned things that the LCM and DM are supposed to do. Same as the last game against Palace as well. This is where I have to assume that Klopp is just giving instructions that are completely different from last season or Milner is free lancing while abdicating his responsibilities. I'm honestly not sure nor is anybody paying me to figure it out.

What I would say though is if you were to make Harvey play as a normal CM he would probably not be good at it and you'd be better off playing someone else. Everything good he does revolves around the penalty area and being aggressive in that space winning the ball so if you move him away from that then what are you left with?\\

Edit: Milner was 0 for 5 on tackles to boot.

Where did he play when on loan?

He played RW for Blackburn, he didn't ever play in midfield as far as I'm aware. Would need to look at the game logs to be sure.

[PEG2K]

Hendo was doing this last season though when he played as RCM. The RCM is essentially our 4th attacker who is supposed to continually rotate around a triangle with Salah and Trent to overload that side of the defense. This then leaves the LCM and DM to cover, win the ball and recycle it. The issue today was not so much in what Elliott was doing but in what Milner was not doing and that was basically any of the previously mentioned things that the LCM and DM are supposed to do. Same as the last game against Palace as well. This is where I have to assume that Klopp is just giving instructions that are completely different from last season or Milner is free lancing while abdicating his responsibilities. I'm honestly not sure nor is anybody paying me to figure it out.

What I would say though is if you were to make Harvey play as a normal CM he would probably not be good at it and you'd be better off playing someone else. Everything good he does revolves around the penalty area and being aggressive in that space winning the ball so if you move him away from that then what are you left with?\\

Edit: Milner was 0 for 5 on tackles to boot.

He played RW for Blackburn, he didn't ever play in midfield as far as I'm aware. Would need to look at the game logs to be sure.

Well of course the RCM also supports the right side of attack. The difference is Hendo, or Keita/Thiago/Milner, when they play that position they also drift in centrally, drop deep to pick up the ball, and help out in midfield control and defence, isn't it? Eliott does none of those. It almost feels like in order to shoehorn him into the system, Klopp is asking 36 year old Milner to play like Ngolo Kante. It just doesn't work.

The solution I can think of, either let him learn his trades as a RCM, or switching to proper 4231 with him as the CAM.

[MonsLibpool]

His thoughball to Robbo in the first half was delicious.

[chrisevry]

By far our best player tonight. Not sure he misplaced a pass all night, rotated possession and knows when to play a clever one around the corner or spread it wide.

He has some frailties but he's young, so pace and strength will come I hope. This kid is as close to some of the Spanish Trequaristas we have admired for years. Just needs the team to be buzzing and he will too.

[chrisevry]

Hendo was doing this last season though when he played as RCM. The RCM is essentially our 4th attacker who is supposed to continually rotate around a triangle with Salah and Trent to overload that side of the defense. This then leaves the LCM and DM to cover, win the ball and recycle it. The issue today was not so much in what Elliott was doing but in what Milner was not doing and that was basically any of the previously mentioned things that the LCM and DM are supposed to do. Same as the last game against Palace as well. This is where I have to assume that Klopp is just giving instructions that are completely different from last season or Milner is free lancing while abdicating his responsibilities. I'm honestly not sure nor is anybody paying me to figure it out.

What I would say though is if you were to make Harvey play as a normal CM he would probably not be good at it and you'd be better off playing someone else. Everything good he does revolves around the penalty area and being aggressive in that space winning the ball so if you move him away from that then what are you left with?\\

Edit: Milner was 0 for 5 on tackles to boot.

He played RW for Blackburn, he didn't ever play in midfield as far as I'm aware. Would need to look at the game logs to be sure.

Great observation. I was saying this to my brother watching the game. Millie vacates his role so often it causes a huge imbalance. Harvey is different to Hendo as he isn't as athletic, so I feel Klopp has asked him to play second fiddle in that triumvate with Mo and Trent. Rotate possession and play that pass when he has time and space. So its a definite transition.

[Dave McCoy]

Well of course the RCM also supports the right side of attack. The difference is Hendo, or Keita/Thiago/Milner, when they play that position they also drift in centrally, drop deep to pick up the ball, and help out in midfield control and defence, isn't it? Eliott does none of those. It almost feels like in order to shoehorn him into the system, Klopp is asking 36 year old Milner to play like Ngolo Kante. It just doesn't work.

The solution I can think of, either let him learn his trades as a RCM, or switching to proper 4231 with him as the CAM.

Why not have the LCM actually be more reserved first? Whether it's been Thiago or Keita or Jones playing there the last couple of years there's never been a time where they are the furthest forward player or getting to the byline. Milner is just completely abdicating any responsibility when he plays there in my opinion and it's completely wrecking the balance of the team regardless of Elliott's shortcomings as an actual midfielder. I actually think Elliott is superior to Hendo as far as this role but if you're going to have your LCM just be completely gone you could play probably anybody there and it would look a mess.

[redmark]

Why not have the LCM actually be more reserved first? Whether it's been Thiago or Keita or Jones playing there the last couple of years there's never been a time where they are the furthest forward player or getting to the byline. Milner is just completely abdicating any responsibility when he plays there in my opinion and it's completely wrecking the balance of the team regardless of Elliott's shortcomings as an actual midfielder. I actually think Elliott is superior to Hendo as far as this role but if you're going to have your LCM just be completely gone you could play probably anybody there and it would look a mess.

It must be tactical, though. Milner has played the disciplined central midfield role before, usually on that left side, yet this season, as you say, he's all over the pitch. Too consistent, too frequent, not being bollocked by the manager for it to be him getting it wrong tactically; he's probably the player in the squad most willing to do exactly what he's asked by the manager. Trying to bring some energy from somewhere, it seems, but it's certainly not very effective so far.

[chrisevry]

It must be tactical, though. Milner has played the disciplined central midfield role before, usually on that left side, yet this season, as you say, he's all over the pitch. Too consistent, too frequent, not being bollocked by the manager for it to be him getting it wrong tactically; he's probably the player in the squad most willing to do exactly what he's asked by the manager. Trying to bring some energy from somewhere, it seems, but it's certainly not very effective so far.

Yeah agree,  its almost like he's trying to lead by example and rally the troops by pressing high, but equally that is tactically naïve.

Shows how vital Thiago is to our shape now. 

[PEG2K]

Why not have the LCM actually be more reserved first? Whether it's been Thiago or Keita or Jones playing there the last couple of years there's never been a time where they are the furthest forward player or getting to the byline. Milner is just completely abdicating any responsibility when he plays there in my opinion and it's completely wrecking the balance of the team regardless of Elliott's shortcomings as an actual midfielder. I actually think Elliott is superior to Hendo as far as this role but if you're going to have your LCM just be completely gone you could play probably anybody there and it would look a mess.

How is he superior to Hendo when the central midfielder part of his game is completely lacking?
You have your supposed RCM playing as a pure attacking RM and the blame is on the LCM for not covering for him?
The only player in the world that has the whole system revolves around him and is completely free from defensive work is Messi.

[quasimodo]

Is it just me that doesn't seem at all convinced by him?
His complete lack of physicality or speed means he will rarely win duels or take a man on.
Technically decent but don't see him scoring or assisting, more of a tidy player that isn't influencing the game

Carvalho should be ahead of him for me

Not just you. Flatters to deceive, too light for a midfield three.

[chrisevry]

Not just you. Flatters to deceive, too light for a midfield three.

what about a 10 ahead of two midfielders?

[Dave McCoy]

It must be tactical, though. Milner has played the disciplined central midfield role before, usually on that left side, yet this season, as you say, he's all over the pitch. Too consistent, too frequent, not being bollocked by the manager for it to be him getting it wrong tactically; he's probably the player in the squad most willing to do exactly what he's asked by the manager. Trying to bring some energy from somewhere, it seems, but it's certainly not very effective so far.

I actually wonder how true that is. Yes he's played as a 6 in the recent past but whenever he's played as a LCM or RCM in my recollection he's pretty adventurous with an added dose of kicking the opposing players thrown in. I honestly don't know though but whenever I see Milner on the team sheet I don't start thinking "control" or "ball winner".

[PEG2K]

what about a 10 ahead of two midfielders?

That's the most sensible option for him at the moment.
Not sure if Klopp's willing to change the whole and only system he has used at Liverpool so far.
Keep in mind that would mean Salah has to change his role as well.

[redmark]

I actually wonder how true that is. Yes he's played as a 6 in the recent past but whenever he's played as a LCM or RCM in my recollection he's pretty adventurous with an added dose of kicking the opposing players thrown in. I honestly don't know though but whenever I see Milner on the team sheet I don't start thinking "control" or "ball winner".

I didn't say he was particularly good at it. But he has played with positional discipline and tactical awareness, and would drop in behind Robertson more than bombing on ahead of Firmino.

[redmark]

That's the most sensible option for him at the moment.
Not sure if Klopp's willing to change the whole and only system he has used at Liverpool so far.
Keep in mind that would mean Salah has to change his role as well.

No point doing it without Darwin or Jota upfront, because Firmino's already dropping into that area. Not that I think Klopp will do it anyway.

[chrisevry]

That's the most sensible option for him at the moment.
Not sure if Klopp's willing to change the whole and only system he has used at Liverpool so far.
Keep in mind that would mean Salah has to change his role as well.

No I agree. but with the signing of Nunez, it makes sense. We don't need BF dropping deep anymore.

[Dave McCoy]

How is he superior to Hendo when the central midfielder part of his game is completely lacking?
You have your supposed RCM playing as a pure attacking RM and the blame is on the LCM for not covering for him?
The only player in the world that has the whole system revolves around him and is completely free from defensive work is Messi.

Yes, and this was happening last year as well. Hendo was a non-entity as far as defensive output when playing as the RCM. Trent moving into midfield is supposed to cover this space. In theory the team is supposed to look like this in attack:

robbo LW FW RCM RW
       LCM     Trent
             DM
     VvD         Matip


You'll notice this is similar to ManC where they do the Cancelo - Rodri - Walker line in front of the CB's now as well. It's the same premise in that you're trying to pack the middle so you can't get transitioned up the gut which leads to the best xG chances. The difference is that ManC are keeping 5 back whereas we keep 4 and the trade-off is supposed to be that we'll take the extra opponent chance or two because we're just so much more dominant in the opponents box that we'll score more no matter what vs. ManC who will draw more because they aren't willing to take those risks.

Where this is failing is that the LCM, Milner, is just no where. So it's basically Trent + the DM and then wide open space. Add in the other underperformances of whoever else you want to add in and that's how we get to where we are now.

So Elliott, he's better at RCM than Hendo because he's a better attacker than Hendo and that's basically what that role is by design. At least it was last year. Based on how Milner is playing LCM though I honestly have no idea.

[chrisevry]

Yes, and this was happening last year as well. Hendo was a non-entity as far as defensive output when playing as the RCM. Trent moving into midfield is supposed to cover this space. In theory the team is supposed to look like this in attack:

robbo LW FW RCM RW
       LCM     Trent
             DM
     VvD         Matip


You'll notice this is similar to ManC where they do the Cancelo - Rodri - Walker line in front of the CB's now as well. It's the same premise in that you're trying to pack the middle so you can't get transitioned up the gut which leads to the best xG chances. The difference is that ManC are keeping 5 back whereas we keep 4 and the trade-off is supposed to be that we'll take the extra opponent chance or two because we're just so much more dominant in the opponents box that we'll score more no matter what vs. ManC who will draw more because they aren't willing to take those risks.

Where this is failing is that the LCM, Milner, is just no where. So it's basically Trent + the DM and then wide open space. Add in the other underperformances of whoever else you want to add in and that's how we get to where we are now.

So Elliott, he's better at RCM than Hendo because he's a better attacker than Hendo and that's basically what that role is by design. At least it was last year. Based on how Milner is playing LCM though I honestly have no idea.

I don't see it like that yet. Klopp isn't that brave, certainly when it comes to the right midfielder. But i agree with the ideal.

Did you watch the Newcastle vs Man city game yesterday? I feel like that was a benchmark. This City team can be got at. They're so adventurous with their 6 and 8 positions going in the half spaces high. With the full backs tucking in narrow to form a block, Newcastle did them with their wingers and Callum Wilson isolating the centre backs with their pace out wide.

I think Klopp is fearful of that, with has caused this weird dichotomy. He wants to be more expansive, but his success isn't predicated on  that virtue.

[Garnier]

He'll be a very useful squad player once he gets more PL experience but it's quite unfortunate most of our other mids are injured so it exposes him a little. Obviously shouldn't be playing in such adverse conditions and having to deputise so often.

[Xanderzone]

I must be honest here, I don't see what others do with this lad.

All I'm seeing is a neat and tidy young player who is nowhere near ready for this level..
 
In his defence - and the same goes for Curtis Jones - I'm baffled why we're trying to convert him into a CM. He's clearly a wide forward or number 10.

[Dave McCoy]

I don't see it like that yet. Klopp isn't that brave, certainly when it comes to the right midfielder. But i agree with the ideal.

Did you watch the Newcastle vs Man city game yesterday? I feel like that was a benchmark. This City team can be got at. They're so adventurous with their 6 and 8 positions going in the half spaces high. With the full backs tucking in narrow to form a block, Newcastle did them with their wingers and Callum Wilson isolating the centre backs with their pace out wide.

I think Klopp is fearful of that, with has caused this weird dichotomy. He wants to be more expansive, but his success isn't predicated on  that virtue.

We played like that all last year so yes, Klopp is that brave and I'd say is almost bordering on reckless lately. I'm pretty sure I linked multiple articles in the Klopp Template thread going over how it worked and Trent's new role.

As far as the Newcastle v ManC game, any team can be got at. I don't think it was a midfield issue but more ASM was having the game of his life or Walker was on the booze the night before. Everything was still shuttled out to the wings and not right up the middle which is how the tactic is supposed to work and in the end ManC should have won.

[PEG2K]

So Elliott, he's better at RCM than Hendo because he's a better attacker than Hendo and that's basically what that role is by design. At least it was last year. Based on how Milner is playing LCM though I honestly have no idea.

He's a better attacker than Hendo no doubt, but to say that role by design doesn't involve defensive contribution is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Surely you can't tell me that Elliott covers as much ground as Henderson as RCM.

For example here's Hendo against United last season playing as RCM:


You can go through all our games last season and see whether it was Hendo or Keita or Jones playing that position, their heat maps never scream pure attacking RM like Elliott's.

[Dave McCoy]

He's a better attacker than Hendo no doubt, but to say that role by design doesn't involve defensive contribution is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Surely you can't tell me that Elliott covers as much ground as Henderson as RCM.

For example here's Hendo against United last season playing as RCM:


You can go through all our games last season and see whether it was Hendo or Keita or Jones playing that position, their heat maps never scream pure attacking RM like Elliott's.

You keep ignoring the fact that the LCM in all those games as well wasn't going walkabout the entire time. For all we know Klopp is telling Harvey to not come back same as he's telling Milner to just go for it. But since we don't know that here's what we do know:

Hendo averaged 2.77 tackles + interceptions over the whole season last year. Let's be generous and assume that even though his numbers were probably bumped up from when he played as a DM or LCM that they were the same across all positions since I don't care to take the time and effort to break it down by position.  Harvey, even with some big fat zeros for today, is going to average the same over the limited minutes this year so far in tackles + interceptions. He was at 4.62 entering today but failed at all his tackles and had no interceptions.

He's doing the same defensive work that Hendo did, no? So what has changed? It's that Thiago or Keita are averaging 5+ tackles+ interceptions in the LCM role and Milner is giving you a big fat Zero consistently. That's what has changed. Even if you asked Harvey to do more defensive work, which he probably couldn't do, it still wouldn't matter as your LCM is doing nothing.