Author Topic: The Men in Suits behind the scenes  (Read 566174 times)

Offline thekitkatshuffler

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #360 on: November 22, 2018, 12:55:37 am »
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.
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Offline Hij

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #361 on: November 22, 2018, 01:39:02 am »
Ultimately there were 3 years between Suarez and Coutinho being sold - so in that regard this clause would have meant nothing if we had done it after Suarez.

But you know what, regardless, I respect him for trying and for doing something that is in the best interests of the football club. Isn't that what we want from Michael Edwards? I'm sure agreeing a 5+ year deal on those terms would be insurmountable but what we are hearing here is that not only did he managed to court £140m from their coffers, but he added this on as well.

That's not bad going really considering.
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.

Well we can all be negative, cynical bastards all we like really. Mané could stay, or he could go to Madrid who don't have such a clause in the very next summer. When I first heard that we had negotiated this from AS I presumed it was bollocks as there would be no way that Barcelona would accept anything along those lines. But now that we discover it was true, we are still using this as a way of disparging those that run the footballing side of our business? I'm not sure that's fair.

Nothing against Edwards but it means nothing. If they bid £20m for Mignolet we’d accept and if they really want a player, they’ll unsettle him like they always do until we can agree a price.

Surely any deal would be at our discretion? I'm sure none of us have read the full terms of whatever was agreed in principle. If someone offered £50m for Mignolet then obviously we would be able to say we'll accept that.

We all realise the alternative is that he didn't insert any such clause and your feeling on us selling one of our star players to them would be exactly the same?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 01:47:40 am by Hij »
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Offline thekitkatshuffler

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #362 on: November 22, 2018, 02:13:44 am »
Well we can all be negative, cynical bastards all we like really.

Probably the healthiest of outlooks given our history.  One can but hope that, when the sale happens, we actually spend the money and don't just hope there'll be enough apologists around to convince everyone that a punt from Stoke was Plan B all along.
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Offline plura

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #363 on: November 22, 2018, 06:00:08 am »
Nothing against Edwards but it means nothing. If they bid £20m for Mignolet we’d accept and if they really want a player, they’ll unsettle him like they always do until we can agree a price.

I’m fairly sure that the deal Edwards did with Barcelona includes the possibility for Barcelona to buy Mignolet for £20M if they wanted to.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #364 on: November 22, 2018, 07:52:20 am »
Probably the healthiest of outlooks given our history.  One can but hope that, when the sale happens, we actually spend the money and don't just hope there'll be enough apologists around to convince everyone that a punt from Stoke was Plan B all along.

It’s not just a punt from stoke though is it? We’ve signed Van Dijk, Keita, Fabinho, Shaqiri since then and would have had Fekir if he hadn’t failed a medical. Granted all of those players haven’t all come out of the Courinho money, but nevertheless he’s been sold and those players have come in, and we’re a better team as a result. I’d far rather we bide our time than throw 100 million at the issue and it be the wrong move.

Offline arab88

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #365 on: November 22, 2018, 09:04:43 am »
Michael Edwards is the best thing that happened to LFC since he was appointed sporting director.

Offline pathetic

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #366 on: November 22, 2018, 09:10:53 am »
Xabi had just signed an extension though.

Plus we got good values on Torres, Sterling, Mascherano and Coutinho.

Both Owen and McManaman did the dirt, so to speak. Suarez was robbery, but I think FSG wanted rid to be honest.

I think we actually made a loss on Mascherano mate. We were robbed blind for him as well as Suarez as you pointed out.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #367 on: November 22, 2018, 02:20:50 pm »
I think we actually made a loss on Mascherano mate. We were robbed blind for him as well as Suarez as you pointed out.

Not sure we made an actual financial loss.

But when you take into account inflation in football, not to mention the level the player was on when he joined (West Ham sub) compared to leaving (One of the best in the world in his role) - we absolutely were robbed blind.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #368 on: November 22, 2018, 02:26:33 pm »
Not sure we made an actual financial loss.

But when you take into account inflation in football, not to mention the level the player was on when he joined (West Ham sub) compared to leaving (One of the best in the world in his role) - we absolutely were robbed blind.

I think we got about £19m. When you look at other transfers made that summer (Toure to City for £24m, Silva to City for £24m) it's not that bad a deal.

This was the last throws of H&G's tenure here though and the club was on its arse financially so we no doubt didn't negotiate as hard as we could have.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #369 on: November 22, 2018, 03:20:15 pm »
I think Mascherano leaving the way he did also didn't help our negotiating position. Hell of a player though. Loved his slide tackles where he would pop up with the ball.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #370 on: November 22, 2018, 03:22:51 pm »
Coutinho definitely isnt worth £140m. The other thing I find funny is that Barcelona dont trust him in midfield either.

He is absolutely a front 3 or 4 player.

And he would have developed more under Klopp than he is currently.


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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #371 on: November 22, 2018, 03:24:33 pm »
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.

Quote
Probably the healthiest of outlooks given our history.  One can but hope that, when the sale happens, we actually spend the money and don't just hope there'll be enough apologists around to convince everyone that a punt from Stoke was Plan B all along.

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Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #372 on: November 22, 2018, 03:41:19 pm »
Probably the healthiest of outlooks given our history.  One can but hope that, when the sale happens, we actually spend the money and don't just hope there'll be enough apologists around to convince everyone that a punt from Stoke was Plan B all along.

History of what? Every club is a selling club once Barca/Real want a player and he wants to go there. It might take a a year longer but if the player wants to go, the deal will happen. Of course, City & Chelsea have had the best resistance mainly due to the sums they can splash to keep the players (and a lot of it is off the books).

Not sure how even a smart piece of business gets hammered because "it wasn't long enough". Stopping 1 bunch of c*nts tapping up our players will help us massively - think what we can achieve in the next 18 months without that crap.

If spending shit loads of money still keeps people depressed then there's no helping them.
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Offline rob1966

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #373 on: November 22, 2018, 04:54:10 pm »
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.

As we've seen, if a player wants to go, they go. At least the clause kept the fuckers from interfering with our squad now. When we sold them Suarez, there was no-one else they would touch, now we have Mane, Salah, Bobby, Ox, Alisson, Virgil, Gomez and Robbo who would all be on anyones shopping list.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #374 on: November 22, 2018, 04:56:43 pm »
Michael Edwards is the best thing that happened to LFC since he was appointed sporting director.


The game changer has been Klopp not Edwards for me mate.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #375 on: November 22, 2018, 05:02:13 pm »
As we've seen, if a player wants to go, they go. At least the clause kept the fuckers from interfering with our squad now. When we sold them Suarez, there was no-one else they would touch, now we have Mane, Salah, Bobby, Ox, Alisson, Virgil, Gomez and Robbo who would all be on anyones shopping list.

I am not sure it does though Rob.

If we go along with your theory that if a player wants to go, then they go. Then surely they just bid at the players value minus the extra 100m euros. If Salah is valued at say 150m euros then bid 50 and they end up paying 150m euros. The only thing I would imagine it protects us from is Barca buying players valued at less than 100 euros or players with a buyout clause in their contract.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #376 on: November 22, 2018, 05:13:30 pm »
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #377 on: November 22, 2018, 05:23:15 pm »
I am not sure it does though Rob.

If we go along with your theory that if a player wants to go, then they go. Then surely they just bid at the players value minus the extra 100m euros. If Salah is valued at say 150m euros then bid 50 and they end up paying 150m euros. The only thing I would imagine it protects us from is Barca buying players valued at less than 100 euros or players with a buyout clause in their contract.

It says €100m on top of an agreed fee. So we'd obviously not agree a €50m fee for Salah in the first place.

Laptop Edwards, or whatever it was you and a handful of others used to call him to have a pop at him because you'd decided he wasn't good enough, is wise to that.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #378 on: November 22, 2018, 05:43:08 pm »
It says €100m on top of an agreed fee. So we'd obviously not agree a €50m fee for Salah in the first place.

Laptop Edwards, or whatever it was you and a handful of others used to call him to have a pop at him because you'd decided he wasn't good enough, is wise to that.

If you believe in the notion that players can force through deals ala Coutinho then the composition of the 150m euros wouldn't matter would it. It is the bottom line that matters.

For example if Mane wanted to leave and was prepared to force through a move and Madrid offered 75m and Barca offered 10m which deal would be the best for us financially ?
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #379 on: November 22, 2018, 06:20:25 pm »
If you believe in the notion that players can force through deals ala Coutinho then the composition of the 150m euros wouldn't matter would it. It is the bottom line that matters.

For example if Mane wanted to leave and was prepared to force through a move and Madrid offered 75m and Barca offered 10m which deal would be the best for us financially ?

Al we all understand what you’re getting at  :wave

I’m not sure it needs all the ifs and buts, we’ve obviously put this in place to stop Barca tapping up our players during that time period. Only real way we’ll know if it’s been successful in doing so is when it’s finished but from what’s been reported (which like Craig says and you’ve missed is the agreed fee) it looks like a pretty clever thing to put into a contract.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #380 on: November 22, 2018, 06:27:18 pm »
I think people are confusing a player forcing a move through with us agreeing to a price lower than what we feel is fair - that may have happened in the past but it hasn’t happened recently.

Coutinho was able to eventually force his move through, but 6 months later than planned and only after Barca had finally agreed to pay what we were asking.

Anyone who thinks we’re going to accept Barca offering significantly less than they would otherwise would have to by virtue of this term in the contract is daft. For a start what sort of message does that send out to Barca if we make them agree to a term and then just openly allow them to breach it?

The likely scenario is Barca won’t be bidding for anyone that we don’t want to sell until 2020, and it doesn’t take a genius to work out which players belong in that bracket.

Offline jason67

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #381 on: November 22, 2018, 07:01:45 pm »
This is a thread that I have never read so apologies, but has anyone suggested making a banner or flag for Martin for the next home game? (Craig put your hand down)

'Without finance and correct dealings in the transfer market we would be nothing'

'We like to win things but look how much money we make'

'Success is about deals not trophies'

Maybe we can put his face on that banner with those others, like sky did with hodgson?

Thoughts?  :wave
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #382 on: November 22, 2018, 07:09:33 pm »
Who is Martin?

Offline jason67

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #383 on: November 22, 2018, 07:24:18 pm »
Who is Martin?

Haha! I wish I could blame auto correct but I can't. Michael was the name I was after, thank fuck I'm not making the banner....
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #384 on: November 22, 2018, 07:32:01 pm »
This is a thread that I have never read so apologies, but has anyone suggested making a banner or flag for Martin for the next home game? (Craig put your hand down)

'Without finance and correct dealings in the transfer market we would be nothing'

'We like to win things but look how much money we make'

'Success is about deals not trophies'

Maybe we can put his face on that banner with those others, like sky did with hodgson?

Thoughts?  :wave

Fantastic, clever and just generally a cracking idea.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline jason67

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #385 on: November 22, 2018, 07:43:36 pm »
Fantastic, clever and just generally a cracking idea.
Brill. That's three of us , four if you count newterp as he replied to my post.

Feels like the idea is really gathering pace now.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #386 on: November 22, 2018, 07:58:29 pm »
Haha! I wish I could blame auto correct but I can't. Michael was the name I was after, thank fuck I'm not making the banner....

We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #387 on: November 22, 2018, 08:46:47 pm »
Who is Martin?

He is a toilet cubicle limbo dancer from Manchester.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #388 on: November 22, 2018, 09:05:16 pm »
So about that banner
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #389 on: November 22, 2018, 09:05:47 pm »
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #390 on: November 22, 2018, 09:57:40 pm »
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #391 on: November 22, 2018, 09:59:18 pm »
Our transfer strategy and dealings are just in a completely different league nowadays. In terms of selling some our 'best' players, we made £267m just from Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho, and arguably have a better (certainly higher scoring and more versatile) attacking trio in Salah, Mane and Firmino that cost only £100m combined. We got to the champions league final (a run which brought in a further £80m), just 6 months after losing our most recent so called 'best' player.

So basically since January we've bought Alisson, VVD, Keita, Fabinho and Shaqiri, for not much more than the Coutinho fee + CL income. Happy days indeed.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #392 on: November 22, 2018, 10:16:59 pm »
So we can set our watches for when we'll sell them Mané?  Cool.

This post aged well.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #393 on: November 22, 2018, 10:17:30 pm »
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline DHKopper

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #394 on: December 14, 2018, 11:07:39 pm »
Decent piece in The Times from Joyce:

For years Liverpool have sought to emulate Manchester United’s clout off the pitch — and not just in terms of their commercial success. Yet, at Anfield on Sunday, it will be the away side who will feel that they have much to learn from the structure put in place by their hosts.

Envious glances will be cast not only towards Mohamed Salah, Virgil van Dijk and Jürgen Klopp but will extend, too, to Michael Edwards.

He is the man who stitched into the smallprint of Philippe Coutinho’s £142 million move to Barcelona a £100 million surcharge should the Catalans return for any other Liverpool player before 2020 and who secured Naby Keïta’s arrival 12 months in advance to ward off other suitors.

The “anti-Arsenal” clause reputed to have been included in Roberto Firmino’s contract when he signed, a response to the Londoners’ failed bid for Luis Suárez, has never been confirmed nor denied but seems the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that is protecting Liverpool and propelling them forward.

So while Klopp is central to a bubbling renaissance, the work of Edwards, the sporting director, together with his closely knit team of scouts and analysts, is also playing a crucial role in the club punching their weight once again.

It is not by chance that the team who are top of the Premier League boast the third-youngest starting XI in the top flight, a line-up that can grow with the manager, with the nucleus contracted to 2023-2024, without buy-out clauses.

It is a model that offers United food for thought. They have spent hundreds of millions of pounds in recent seasons without an overarching figure pulling all the necessary strands together and ensuring mistakes are kept to a minimum.

At Old Trafford, the prototype pits the manager, José Mourinho, with the executive vice-chairman, Ed Woodward, and espouses a short-term approach where options are triggered on contracts to delay the threat of players walking out on free transfers.

Edwards, who played for Norwich City as a schoolboy and then for Peterborough United reserves, shuns the spotlight and never gives interviews. But his rise to eminence is rooted in his work as a performance analyst when Harry Redknapp was with Portsmouth.

“We worked on putting presentations together for the upcoming game and Michael also gave in-depth analysis on players that the club may have been interested in,” Joe Jordan, Redknapp’s former assistant, said.

“He had a playing career himself and I have always thought he is a good judge of a player. But it is not simply that. There are thousands of players out there and he does his homework.

“Michael doesn’t take any shortcuts. He makes sure when a player has been brought to his attention that he looks into it and gets his facts and figures right. He wants to make sure that if he is putting forward that player to the manager, all the information is in place.”

Edwards followed Redknapp and Jordan to Tottenham Hotspur as head of performance analysis. There he struck up a relationship with Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, and was asked to reshape, and run, the entire department.

He was subsequently headhunted by Damien Comolli, Liverpool’s first sporting director, in 2012. Promotions to the role of director of technical performance, and then technical director, followed by August 2015 and he became sporting director in November of the following year.

Part of the 39-year-old’s remit is Liverpool’s medium and long-term strategy, with his brief including scouting, the academy, medical, research, player liaison and performance analysis. He is the key figure at Melwood to whom staff turn without knocking on Klopp’s door every five minutes.

The system has not always run smoothly. Tensions with Brendan Rodgers led to disharmony and mistakes — the success of Coutinho’s arrival undermined, for example, by the signing of Christian Benteke for £32.5 million from Aston Villa in 2015.

An improvement owes much to Klopp, who was accustomed to working with a sporting director at Borussia Dortmund, embracing a policy that has three fundamental rules.

First, a player will not be signed if the manager does not want him and, second, the owner, Fenway Sports Group, has the right to say no. So, if the manager wants to buy a 29-year-old for £40 million and FSG does not want to spend that amount on someone whose career could be dead in the water in three years’ time, then that is its choice.

The final tenet relates to constantly keeping up to date with the transfer market, spotting opportunities and assessing availability, which in turn guides purchases and sales.

The evolution of FSG’s transfer strategy, a switch from targeting potential to proven talent and embracing the financial demands attuned to that, has also been transformative, although whether the club would have signed Alisson Becker for £65 million had Nabil Fekir not failed a medical on a £53 million transfer from Lyons is unclear.

There is still a difference between spending money and spending wisely though. Liverpool have also sold well.

Their three-year spend from 2016 to the summer of 2018 is £390 million. Sales from the same period have raised £265 million, bringing a net spend of £125 million. Estimated net spend figures over the same period put United at £300 million, Manchester City £358 million and Arsenal £140 million.

For United, the way forward feels complicated.

Mourinho does not appear to be averse to receiving more help. His comments on the signing of Diogo Dalot, the exciting right back, struck a chord following on from the praise handed to the West Ham United scout behind the signing of Issa Diop after he starred in United’s 3-1 September defeat at the London Stadium.

“I’m not a scout,” Mourinho said. “I have no chance to do that. I can do it with Dalot because he is Portuguese. I can control that market pretty well. He’s a player with fantastic potential.”

The sporting director model cannot prosper if the incumbent is simply the manager’s man because then he becomes another salary with little value.

“Michael is brilliant at taking all of the information from the scouts who have been watching games, all the analytics, and pulling that together,” one source familiar with the Liverpool set-up said.

“But his character means he can be quite argumentative as well and that’s healthy.

“He will stand his ground if he really believes in something: ‘Here are the three targets. I know you like that one better, but let us show why you might want to think about this.’

“It is not to be disrespectful but he will say [to the manager], ‘You are wrong’. You need arguments to get the best for club. The role is not about just agreeing with everything.”

This challenges the image of laptop geek and Klopp has publicly acknowledged the recruitment team that pushed for him to sign Salah in the summer of 2017 before and after his preferred option, Bayer Leverkusen’s Julian Brandt, opted against a move to Merseyside.

After ups and downs, Liverpool are clearly benefiting from a framework painstakingly put in place and United must decide how long they can wait before following suit.

“Nowadays it is different to 20 years ago,” Jordan said. “Then, the manager, or coach, would finish training, jump in a car and pop up to Lancashire, for example, to look at a player.

“It doesn’t happen as much now because that player is playing for Cologne or in Buenos Aires. The work that gets done in the background is enormous to try and ensure the manager can do his job on the training pitch with the players he wants.

“Michael is very professional and does the job properly.”

Edwards is on a rolling contract. He is happy at Liverpool, but it might be worth updating with an anti-United clause.

The key figures in Liverpool’s think-tank
Jürgen Klopp
Liverpool manager
The German is receptive to the sporting director model. His office is opposite that of Edwards.

Mike Gordon
The Fenway Sports Group president
He and Edwards are in daily contact.

Dave Fallows
Head of recruitment
His strengths lie in strategy and he manages the scouting department on a daily basis.

Barry Hunter
Chief scout
He was behind the signings of Joe Gomez from Charlton Athletic for £3.5 million and the highly-rated 16-year-old Ki-Jana Hoever, who joined from Ajax in September. He arrived from Manchester City with Fallows in 2012.

Ian Graham
Director of research
He heads up a team of four PHD graduates with backgrounds ranging in astrophysics to physics and advanced maths. Responsible for all data that helps to drive decision making.

Julian Ward
Oversees care of players on loan
Other clubs have now created similar positions and adopted similar deal concepts from Liverpool with cost of loan decreasing as appearances rise.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #395 on: December 14, 2018, 11:12:16 pm »
Ah, Laptop Graham. Fuck him off.

Offline RedSince86

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #396 on: December 14, 2018, 11:25:44 pm »
He needs binning off that rolling contract he currently has and handed a 10 year contract asap.
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Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #397 on: December 15, 2018, 01:08:04 am »
Never gonna happen hes too smart to talk himself into a contract like that. Maybe if he offered himself some performance bonuses that grow over time with sustained success, hed consider tying himself down for so long. But it would definitely be a tough negotiation, especially if he represented himself.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #398 on: December 15, 2018, 10:24:22 am »
Very impressive the professional way the club are going about their research and development.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #399 on: December 15, 2018, 10:28:37 am »
Never gonna happen hes too smart to talk himself into a contract like that. Maybe if he offered himself some performance bonuses that grow over time with sustained success, hed consider tying himself down for so long. But it would definitely be a tough negotiation, especially if he represented himself.

Don’t see why not, opportunity to secure a long term roll, security of a fixed income for the next X years, etc. It has its benefits even to Edwards.

Hopefully though the system is not dependant on one man and should he leave he should hopefully be replaceable.