Author Topic: The Men in Suits behind the scenes  (Read 588961 times)

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #440 on: January 2, 2019, 12:45:53 am »
The Director of Football is the one who should also play a part here - having a longer term vision of the style of football. That continuity in style of football is not only a club identity, it makes business sense! Imagine going from an attack minded manager to a Mourinho, and facing a mass clear out as the current crop of players don’t fit well enough in the system of the new manager. So, that means, when/if Klopp leaves, they need to bring in another manager with a similar system of football to make use of the crop of players.


Really good post.  We'll see how good Edwards really is at his job when Klopp is finished at LFC (hopefully a long time from now).  If Edwards can bring in another manager with a similar philosophy in the game so we don't have to start all over and bring in a completely new side. 

Offline tornado

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #441 on: January 2, 2019, 01:13:24 am »
I think one thing that separates the very best organizations from the very good is succession planning. And this is something owners/Edwards would be very mindful of. Klopp did 7 years each at Mainz/Dortmund, he would have done 3.5 at the end of this season (I think his current contract takes him to 6 total but correct me if I am wrong). I feel that the over the next 3 years, he will   take us to a stage where we are dining at the top table (alongside Barcelona/Real/Bayern).
But don't think he will go beyond the 6-7 years (it is a very very taxing job). So, it is vitally important to have that continuity where the new manager fits in with the style the club would have been used to. In our history, we have got this wrong and paid heavily for it (United going through the same now).
It will also be a very tough balancing act and I think this is something the management must already be planning for (there is also the contingency planning where Klopp doesnt even make it to the full 6 years for personal reasons or whatever).
Hopefully Edward aces this because this is the biggest recruitment we will be making at that time (I would say at par with Van Dijk) e

Offline Redcap

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #442 on: January 2, 2019, 02:20:25 am »
I think one thing that separates the very best organizations from the very good is succession planning. And this is something owners/Edwards would be very mindful of. Klopp did 7 years each at Mainz/Dortmund, he would have done 3.5 at the end of this season (I think his current contract takes him to 6 total but correct me if I am wrong). I feel that the over the next 3 years, he will   take us to a stage where we are dining at the top table (alongside Barcelona/Real/Bayern).
But don't think he will go beyond the 6-7 years (it is a very very taxing job). So, it is vitally important to have that continuity where the new manager fits in with the style the club would have been used to. In our history, we have got this wrong and paid heavily for it (United going through the same now).
It will also be a very tough balancing act and I think this is something the management must already be planning for (there is also the contingency planning where Klopp doesnt even make it to the full 6 years for personal reasons or whatever).
Hopefully Edward aces this because this is the biggest recruitment we will be making at that time (I would say at par with Van Dijk) e

Agree. I think contract extension is on for the end of this season, and then thereafter taking his pulse on how he feels about the long haul. I think well before the end of the 7 year point, we would have stalked out the ideal potential successor and kept tabs. It may be that transition to a new manager a little bit earlier would be preferable to missing the chance and falling back on the wrong one if Klopp leaves and the right person isn't available.

But I think our first order of priority should be trying to figure out any way possible to keep Klopp interested and motivated to do as long a stint as we can.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #443 on: January 2, 2019, 02:24:12 am »
Succession planning is less important than having good players. Apart from the Boot Room, I can't think of any succession planning that was 100% successful, without also having the best players. And even then...
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #444 on: January 2, 2019, 02:34:42 am »
Agree. I think contract extension is on for the end of this season, and then thereafter taking his pulse on how he feels about the long haul. I think well before the end of the 7 year point, we would have stalked out the ideal potential successor and kept tabs. It may be that transition to a new manager a little bit earlier would be preferable to missing the chance and falling back on the wrong one if Klopp leaves and the right person isn't available.

But I think our first order of priority should be trying to figure out any way possible to keep Klopp interested and motivated to do as long a stint as we can.

I could see Klopp staying longer than the 7 years, maybe a decade or so, then retiring. He’s got the chance to build something special here, a legacy, with more resources than at his previous clubs. More resources also means he doesn’t have to take all the weight on his shoulders.

We’re about to open a new training ground and academy. The analytics department is growing and developing new ideas. It feels like this is just the start. Maybe I’m being naive and to Klopp it’s just a job, but we’ll see.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #445 on: January 2, 2019, 03:16:55 am »
I could see Klopp staying longer than the 7 years, maybe a decade or so, then retiring. He’s got the chance to build something special here, a legacy, with more resources than at his previous clubs. More resources also means he doesn’t have to take all the weight on his shoulders.

We’re about to open a new training ground and academy. The analytics department is growing and developing new ideas. It feels like this is just the start. Maybe I’m being naive and to Klopp it’s just a job, but we’ll see.

Agreed. If we keep him happy and show improvement and backing, I'dd expect him to do 12-14 years here and retire at 60-62. I do not expect Klopp to manage another club after us.

Offline Redcap

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #446 on: January 2, 2019, 03:58:46 am »
I could see Klopp staying longer than the 7 years, maybe a decade or so, then retiring. He’s got the chance to build something special here, a legacy, with more resources than at his previous clubs. More resources also means he doesn’t have to take all the weight on his shoulders.

We’re about to open a new training ground and academy. The analytics department is growing and developing new ideas. It feels like this is just the start. Maybe I’m being naive and to Klopp it’s just a job, but we’ll see.

Somewhere in the middle I think. I agree that we are a better resourced club than Mainz or Dortmund, and I don't think any club Klopp manages is just a job to him. But the challenge and stress of the job remains. One thing he (or perhaps was mooted elsewhere) mentioned at the end of the Dortmund years was that his style of management became less effective after a certain period, because it's simply very hard to keep a group of people focused and hungry over a long period, and at the end of that period, it feels like a logical time to move on. If we want to keep Klopp in the job for the very long haul, I think the key would be to think of the club, rather than just the team, as his long term project. Give him ownership of not just the performance on the pitch, but some ability to influence the continued success of the club beyond one or two generations of players - an Alex Ferguson level of connection to the club.

I think that's potentially contrary to the sporting director approach discussed here though. It's not really Jurgen's field of expertise and he's made a point that as the head coach, he's a part of a larger team responsible for the success of the club. Selling him on not only bringing success to the club, but refreshing the squad once over and doing it all again, would be a challenge.

The difficulty of this is illustrated by the fact that no club in recent history that's had continued success over the course of 10+ years with a single manager, other than United under Ferguson. On some level, I think that's because familiarity breeds a certain amount of contempt, and it's hard for a single group of people - manager, coaches, players, scouts etc. to stay committed to the same singular vision, and to each other over the long term.

That's where the sporting director concept comes in handy.

Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #447 on: January 2, 2019, 05:04:50 am »
The squad as currently constructed is setup to coincide with Klopp's contract as far as all of the players being in their peak.  Once his contract is up you're talking about Salah, Mane, Firmino, VvD, Gini, Henderson, Ox and Fabinho all being 30 or over and needing new contracts.  I'm not including Allison in that as a GK's peak age can be wildly different than a regular outfield player.

Should Klopp be kept around for that or does he even want to have to deal with that?  Instead maybe just win as much as he can with this group of players and then ride off into the sunset with majority of his players?  Pretty sure aside from Ferguson there isn't a manager that has done well with having to turn over an entire squad. 

Offline Qston

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #448 on: January 2, 2019, 08:43:38 am »
The squad as currently constructed is setup to coincide with Klopp's contract as far as all of the players being in their peak.  Once his contract is up you're talking about Salah, Mane, Firmino, VvD, Gini, Henderson, Ox and Fabinho all being 30 or over and needing new contracts.  I'm not including Allison in that as a GK's peak age can be wildly different than a regular outfield player.

Should Klopp be kept around for that or does he even want to have to deal with that?  Instead maybe just win as much as he can with this group of players and then ride off into the sunset with majority of his players?  Pretty sure aside from Ferguson there isn't a manager that has done well with having to turn over an entire squad.

I think you will see the more ruthless side of Klopp long before his contract, and the contracts of those players, are up. Everything I have read about him suggests he has, as all great managers do, a ruthlessness to him.
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Offline No666

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #449 on: January 2, 2019, 08:45:19 am »
The one job Klopp would find irresistible is the German national team job. Failing that being offered, he could probably be tempted to see out the rest of his career with us. When that day comes, I imagine Edwards would interview likely internal candidates, such as Pep Ljinders, against likely external candidates. Perhaps more important is not being caught on the hop when Edwards has had enough.

Offline goliath377

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #450 on: January 2, 2019, 08:45:43 am »
I think we have a natural successor in Lijnders already although he did not succeed with NEC.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #451 on: January 2, 2019, 08:48:15 am »
He views his lack of success there as down to asking limited players to up their game beyond their ability. He was too used to working with the elite. I think it's interesting that Gerrard has been consulting Rafa (who has experience with teams of varying quality now) and wonder how much of that comes down to Ljinders passing down his experiences.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2019, 08:50:18 am by No666 »

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #452 on: January 2, 2019, 10:15:19 am »
Not surprised this man and Klopp didn't bother with Pulisic. We've found the winning formula up front. And it's a combination of strength, work rate, technical ability and goals.

Pulisic doesn't have two of those. He doesn't have the strength and goals required to play in our front 3. The power cube does though. I think an attacking midfielder and back up striker will be the only 2 players this man targets in the summer. We don't really need anyone else. Maybe that Lloyd Kelly to cover for Robertson once Moreno leaves.
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #453 on: January 2, 2019, 10:28:08 am »
The squad as currently constructed is setup to coincide with Klopp's contract as far as all of the players being in their peak.  Once his contract is up you're talking about Salah, Mane, Firmino, VvD, Gini, Henderson, Ox and Fabinho all being 30 or over and needing new contracts.  I'm not including Allison in that as a GK's peak age can be wildly different than a regular outfield player.

Should Klopp be kept around for that or does he even want to have to deal with that?  Instead maybe just win as much as he can with this group of players and then ride off into the sunset with majority of his players?  Pretty sure aside from Ferguson there isn't a manager that has done well with having to turn over an entire squad. 

I agree on the ages of players. It is also good policy from the DoF level for Liverpool to be buying players around the 23-24 age, so that they can mature and peak at the club. Klopp's long-term future? It really depends on how he is feeling and how he copes with the pressures of the job. He looks quite relaxed atm so let's see how he copes between now and May. Yes he is building a powerful new machine to win trophies. I'd love to see the club grow in revenue and statue over the next 2-3 years and then maybe Klopp himself, can sit down with Michael Edwards and plan a SECOND wave of players to take Klopp well beyond his 7 years.

When Klopp has his hands on a certain trophy I do not want to name, that changes everything for him, as Liverpool manager. The future then becomes a different playground. Perhaps Klopp can keep himself fresh by using new assistants and bringing fresh ideas into his team.

With even slightly improved resources over what we have at the moment, and the fervour of a Liverpool fanbase seeing trophies arrive again, I doubt Klopp would find a better job in World footy - given that he doesn't seem a Bayern Munich type of guy.
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Offline Yiannis

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #454 on: January 2, 2019, 12:56:01 pm »
Not surprised this man and Klopp didn't bother with Pulisic. We've found the winning formula up front. And it's a combination of strength, work rate, technical ability and goals.

Pulisic doesn't have two of those. He doesn't have the strength and goals required to play in our front 3. The power cube does though. I think an attacking midfielder and back up striker will be the only 2 players this man targets in the summer. We don't really need anyone else. Maybe that Lloyd Kelly to cover for Robertson once Moreno leaves.

Aye. So true. I may have been a bit harsh with him in terms of his low return of goals cause he's still young but he has at some point start doing that. You don't get away with just being good at dribbling these days (at top clubs) if you play in a front 3.

Also there might be a small case of too much wishful thinking for him to succeed cause he is American as they want to finally produce a top, top player. We'll see.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #455 on: January 2, 2019, 01:07:41 pm »
Sancho is already a more productive player than him in every sense of the word.

He could turn out to be a star, but at present time it's not a signing we need.


Offline tornado

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #456 on: January 2, 2019, 02:01:48 pm »
I think it will be great if we can get Klopp beyond 7 years, its just that the intensity with which Klopp works, it burns you out real quick.
One scenario can be that if he needs to take a break, just give him a sabbatical (6 months or 1 year to recharge batteries). I dont think this has ever been done in top management but the guy is seriously that good that if this is one way to hold him for the long run, so be it. The big issue is that it would be extermely hard to get a top guy as a stop gap, so probably thats when the likes of Pep can step in

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #457 on: January 2, 2019, 02:07:31 pm »
I think it will be great if we can get Klopp beyond 7 years, its just that the intensity with which Klopp works, it burns you out real quick.
One scenario can be that if he needs to take a break, just give him a sabbatical (6 months or 1 year to recharge batteries). I dont think this has ever been done in top management but the guy is seriously that good that if this is one way to hold him for the long run, so be it. The big issue is that it would be extermely hard to get a top guy as a stop gap, so probably thats when the likes of Pep can step in

yeah, I really don't think that's going to happen  ;)

Offline tornado

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #458 on: January 2, 2019, 02:09:21 pm »
I think the posters above being a little harsh on Pulisic. We would have definitely been interested but it ultimately comes to the price point. For 58mil, for deal to make sense, he should be ready for first 11 or atleast first 14. He is not at that level yet and not paying a huge "potential premium" is the right thing to do. Probably a small premium for him being a USMNT star but not a huge one.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #459 on: January 2, 2019, 02:12:39 pm »
yeah, I really don't think that's going to happen  ;)
Agree, very very unlikely, there is zero precendent for that but still would be great if it does :)

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #460 on: January 2, 2019, 03:53:42 pm »
I think it will be great if we can get Klopp beyond 7 years, its just that the intensity with which Klopp works, it burns you out real quick.
One scenario can be that if he needs to take a break, just give him a sabbatical (6 months or 1 year to recharge batteries). I dont think this has ever been done in top management but the guy is seriously that good that if this is one way to hold him for the long run, so be it. The big issue is that it would be extermely hard to get a top guy as a stop gap, so probably thats when the likes of Pep can step in

I thought of Kenny when I read that - remember the suggestion that the board should've given him time off to recover instead or letting him go. The fact he did come back fairly quickly with Blackburn makes it sound like a plausible option but I guess being at Blackburn meant he was in a completely different environment without painful memories or the immediate pressure to win.

Not saying any situation would compare to Kenny, but any break would also see players viewing the manager with suspicion upon his return, the dynamic would probably change maybe just a tiny bit but enough to make a difference at this level. The only way I can see absences work is for obvious health reasons (like Ged).
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #461 on: January 2, 2019, 04:30:42 pm »
Agree, very very unlikely, there is zero precendent for that but still would be great if it does :)

Nils Arne Eggen did it once when he managed Rosenborg, maybe not the absolute top of football but they were champions league regulars at the time.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #462 on: January 2, 2019, 05:27:18 pm »
It would work differently on the transfer side, but it’s because we’d have a different manager with a different system of football. The insights from the playing side would be different - the players they target might have a different profile. But that’s one part of the whole team in place.

The Director of Football is the one who should also play a part here - having a longer term vision of the style of football. That continuity in style of football is not only a club identity, it makes business sense! Imagine going from an attack minded manager to a Mourinho, and facing a mass clear out as the current crop of players don’t fit well enough in the system of the new manager. So, that means, when/if Klopp leaves, they need to bring in another manager with a similar system of football to make use of the crop of players.

The crop of players is churned more than the manager, but it’s also important to buy the right type of players for that system (of course, the manager wants this more than anyone as he’s managing the football on the pitch!)

 So whatever happens, the crop of players at any one time should fit in with the managers philosophy. But that philosophy should be guided by the DoF when choosing the next crop of managers. It’s like a modern day version of the bootroom - and hopefully should be a system which finally catapults us to sustained success and competitiveness at the highest level. Something only a handful of clubs like Real Madrid and Barcelona seem to have managed so far, with the likes of Us, Chelsea and Man City building towards it in our leagues. That is to say, a system which is competitive for the highest honours despite the football manager in place. Man Utd have painfully found out the pitfalls of not having such a system in place post Ferguson. Under Mourinho and 100s of millions of investment in the team, they’ve just found out the pitfalls of not having that overarching philosophy in place - if they had, it would have guided them away from a Mourinho and Van Gaal.

Here is Michael Zorc on his role at Dortmund.

Who better to describe the role than Zorc, a Dortmund legend as a player, and a man who has arguably been still more influential for the club off the pitch, orchestrating the arrival of the likes of Robert Lewandowski, Shinji Kagawa and Ousmane Dembele at the Signal Iduna Park.

But as he explains, the sporting director's responsibility runs far deeper than simply convincing players to sign on the dotted line as he plays strategist, sounding board, and even lunch date to BVB's local heroes.

“I’m also responsible for the philosophy at the club from the youth to the first team,” said the man who brought Jürgen Klopp to the club for what many consider the most successful chapter in Dortmund's history.

“I discuss the style of play with the coach, and the youth teams will follow that. But for our fans it has to be daring and attacking. The CEO handles the budget you have, but as well as buying, selling and extending players’ contracts, I'm also someone they can talk to besides the coach. I’m always with the team during matches. I attend all training sessions and will often even eat with the players so they know someone from the club is looking out for them.”


The key part for me is the bolded bit does anyone actually believe that it is Edwards and not Klopp who is responsible for the philosophy of the Club. Edwards was an apprentice footballer who was let go and then turned to education and then has spent his career as an analyst.

All the managers we have appointed under FSG have been appointed by the owners. So I think it is a huge assumption that the next appointment will be made by Edwards.


So Klopp’s a massive part of it, but it should still work well in terms of us being competitive without him. It’s important to have that DoF above a manager because the management cycle is pretty short in the high level game now. That’s how the clubs who always compete for the CL and leagues do it on a sustained basis. Look at the amount of managers Barcelona and Real Madrid have had the last 10-15 years! Didn’t stop them constantly competing for leagues/CL (maybe one off season here or there in either competition, but they’re always at the top competing in general). We’re trying to build that here and it’s brilliant to see it working so effectively.

Real Madrid and Barca though have a certain way of running the Club and an identity. Madrid believe in galacticos and an experienced dressing room. Barca are based on the Dutch culture of Cruyff. Plus they have an incredible financial advantage compared to the rest of their League.

Are we really trying to build that here ?

It started with Comolli and throughout the process it had more than a few teething problems. But it was a football system that produced top top level attacking footballers. Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho were brought in and/or nurtured in that Football management system. The attacking philosophy of football saw them play attacking football under at least 2 managers, and they were showcased in PL and European competition as outstanding attackers. They were sold for more than 250m, an incredible generation of value by those who brought them in and trained them on the pitch. That has had a direct impact on us being able to buy Alisson and Van Dijk on top of the big money spent on the likes of Keita, Salah, Mane and Fabinho. And they seem to have hit home runs with not only them, but in the nurturing of Trent and Gomez and the incredibly cheap purchases of Robertson and Shaqiri. It’s an even bigger generation of value by the new management team in Edwards, Klopp and Gordon.

Comolli is pretty much the definition of a DoF without a philosophy though. He is a numbers guy who looks to buy players who will increase in value. Martin Jol summed it when he said that Comolli was more interested in buying younger players whose value would increase rather than the players Jol actually needed. The proof was in the pudding as they say and Comolli was appointed at both Spurs and St Etienne with the Clubs knocking on the door of the Champions League he was sacked from both Clubs with them staring relegation in the face.

As for the system producing Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho. I think that is an incredible stretch. Liverpool didn't produce Suarez or Sturridge they were already top drawer talents especially Suarez. Sterling was brought in by Rafa and was a huge talent.


That is because the system now is firing on all cylinders - they’re a proper management team. There’s a philosophy in place to bring attacking football to Anfield. So they bring Klopp in and given the previous management’s top job in bringing through the likes of Coutinho et al, there was a massive investment possible for Klopp to build his ideal team. They all work well together as evidenced by the way we play football as well as the results.

Congratulations to those at the top of the club having the foresight to put this system in place. Despite the teething problems along the way, this is what it has currently developed into. And it looks like it’s finally firing on all cylinders that we are now competing for the top honours. A CL final and now sitting top of the PL with massive matches almost every other week. I hope it continues to develop the football team for years to come and successfully wins and competes for the biggest honours every season.

Firstly attacking Football isn't a philosophy it is an intention. It is how you generate the attacking Football that is the philosophy. Rodgers believed that dominating possession would win you games whereas Klopp's philosophy is about geggenpressing and latterly controling games. For me those are the philosophies and not an intention to play attacking football.

You are quite correct that we have reached a CL final and are top of the League but Klopp has already done that before at a Club with a fraction of our results. Edwards is quite clearly an excellent analyst but for me to expect some one with no top flight experience as a player or as a coach to define one of the biggest Clubs in the World's philosophy seems bizarre. 
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #463 on: January 2, 2019, 05:45:44 pm »
Edwards is quite clearly an excellent analyst but for me to expect some one with no top flight experience as a player or as a coach to define one of the biggest Clubs in the World's philosophy seems bizarre. 

I don't think it would be bizarre at all, especially if we are successful on the pitch and also with regards to transfers. Comparing Edwards to a Zorc may be a little unfair - especially if Edwards' remit is smaller than that of Zorc's or someone else in a similar position in Europe. I'm not sure a Sporting director should always be attending training sessions for example.

You're quite correct that it is Klopp who is driving the ethos of the club at present, but it seems that the both of them are dovetailing nicely. Klopp does not want to do everything and puts his trust in others to carry out his wishes. The experience that Edwards is getting will help us when trying to identify Klopp's eventual successor.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #464 on: January 2, 2019, 06:03:02 pm »
I don't think it would be bizarre at all, especially if we are successful on the pitch and also with regards to transfers. Comparing Edwards to a Zorc may be a little unfair - especially if Edwards' remit is smaller than that of Zorc's or someone else in a similar position in Europe. I'm not sure a Sporting director should always be attending training sessions for example.

You're quite correct that it is Klopp who is driving the ethos of the club at present, but it seems that the both of them are dovetailing nicely. Klopp does not want to do everything and puts his trust in others to carry out his wishes. The experience that Edwards is getting will help us when trying to identify Klopp's eventual successor.

The thing is though without Edwards being capable of defining the Clubs philosophy then surely it will be a case of the new coach defining the Clubs philosophy.

Doesn't that sort of undermine the notion that we have a true DoF/SD.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #465 on: January 2, 2019, 06:07:19 pm »
I don't think it would be bizarre at all, especially if we are successful on the pitch and also with regards to transfers. Comparing Edwards to a Zorc may be a little unfair - especially if Edwards' remit is smaller than that of Zorc's or someone else in a similar position in Europe. I'm not sure a Sporting director should always be attending training sessions for example.

You're quite correct that it is Klopp who is driving the ethos of the club at present, but it seems that the both of them are dovetailing nicely. Klopp does not want to do everything and puts his trust in others to carry out his wishes. The experience that Edwards is getting will help us when trying to identify Klopp's eventual successor.

If they want to know what training looks like for successful teams and coaches, then they should be down there looking at training - unless they are an ex-player or coach themselves. If they're just an analyst, then they'll never learn what good coaching looks like if they don't watch good coaching up close.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #466 on: January 2, 2019, 06:09:07 pm »
people seem to be taking massive forward leaps in this thread now  ;D
 

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #467 on: January 2, 2019, 06:11:28 pm »
Didn’t Edwards play professionally for Peterborough or someone like that?

Rafa never really played professionally, but most had no issues with him defining our footballing style.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #468 on: January 2, 2019, 06:15:06 pm »
Didn’t Edwards play professionally for Peterborough or someone like that?

Rafa never really played professionally, but most had no issues with him defining our footballing style.
Well quite..

Rafa, Rodgers, Mourinho etc etc.. none of these were top players...

And looking at spotting directors, Monchi was a bit part player at best...

The best players seldom make the best coaches etc.. most,ty because they’ve concentrated on playing for so long...
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #469 on: January 2, 2019, 06:19:59 pm »
Didn’t Edwards play professionally for Peterborough or someone like that?

Rafa never really played professionally, but most had no issues with him defining our footballing style.

Edwards was an apprentice he played for their youth team for 2 years he was let go and then went to Uni.

Rafa played third tier Spanish Football and then spent years studying coaching as he created his philosophy.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #470 on: January 2, 2019, 06:24:38 pm »
Well quite..

Rafa, Rodgers, Mourinho etc etc.. none of these were top players...

And looking at spotting directors, Monchi was a bit part player at best...

The best players seldom make the best coaches etc.. most,ty because they’ve concentrated on playing for so long...

That isn't the point though. It is about someone with no playing or coaching experience defining a Clubs philosophy.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #471 on: January 2, 2019, 06:24:54 pm »
Edwards was an apprentice he played for their youth team for 2 years he was let go and then went to Uni.

Rafa played third tier Spanish Football and then spent years studying coaching as he created his philosophy.

I’d imagine Edwards has spent the best part of his last 16+ years working in football, on top of his playing career before that, creating his own ideas on football too. I also imagine part of why he got the position he did is because they marry with what the club want too, as did Klopps.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #472 on: January 2, 2019, 06:26:18 pm »
That isn't the point though. It is about someone with no playing or coaching experience defining a Clubs philosophy.

Why does it matter as long as that person has the ability to do so?

You were so obsessed Edwards couldn’t do this role previously due to him being a laptop guy and have been proven ever so wrong, so why are you still banging that drum?

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #473 on: January 2, 2019, 06:26:27 pm »
If they want to know what training looks like for successful teams and coaches, then they should be down there looking at training - unless they are an ex-player or coach themselves. If they're just an analyst, then they'll never learn what good coaching looks like if they don't watch good coaching up close.

I didn't say they shouldn't attend at all, obviously they would attend certain sessions to gain insight on what is going on in training, but being there every week feels like overreach of role.

If he is at training, when does he have the time to do his own work, assuming his role is vastly different to Klopp's (genuine question PoP)?
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #474 on: January 2, 2019, 06:29:41 pm »
Didn’t Edwards play professionally for Peterborough or someone like that?

Rafa never really played professionally, but most had no issues with him defining our footballing style.

From the Echo:

Quote
Edwards was born in Southampton but started his football career at Peterborough United where he came through the youth system and was an apprentice professional when they were in the Championship, playing as a full-back. He was released after getting no further than the reserves and went into education, getting a degree in business management and informatics at the University of Sheffield. He continued to play semi-professionally.

My point was to MightyRed saying he didn't see why a DoF needed to be at training sessions. My point is that when you get a successful coach who is improving the team, and you are the person tasked with hiring their eventual successor, then it should be of paramount importance to be on the field at intervals to see what the training looks like in terms of structure, organisation, coaching points, coaching style, periodisation, duration, intensity, topics covered, ratio of fitness to tactical work, etc.

Because if you don't know what good coaching looks like, your next appointment is basically a shot in the dark.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #475 on: January 2, 2019, 06:30:45 pm »
“Michael is absolutely the right person for this. He has the knowledge, expertise and personality to flourish in the role and I was delighted when he told me he would be accepting the position."

IMO Klopp would never be talking this glowingly about someone without outstanding football knowledge. He's worked with him and could have seen the level of his football knowledge so to say he was delighted Michael took that job speaks volumes.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #476 on: January 2, 2019, 06:32:47 pm »
I think one thing that separates the very best organizations from the very good is succession planning. And this is something owners/Edwards would be very mindful of. Klopp did 7 years each at Mainz/Dortmund, he would have done 3.5 at the end of this season (I think his current contract takes him to 6 total but correct me if I am wrong). I feel that the over the next 3 years, he will   take us to a stage where we are dining at the top table (alongside Barcelona/Real/Bayern).

But don't think he will go beyond the 6-7 years (it is a very very taxing job). So, it is vitally important to have that continuity where the new manager fits in with the style the club would have been used to. In our history, we have got this wrong and paid heavily for it (United going through the same now).
It will also be a very tough balancing act and I think this is something the management must already be planning for (there is also the contingency planning where Klopp doesnt even make it to the full 6 years for personal reasons or whatever).
Hopefully Edward aces this because this is the biggest recruitment we will be making at that time (I would say at par with Van Dijk) e

Agree. I think contract extension is on for the end of this season, and then thereafter taking his pulse on how he feels about the long haul. I think well before the end of the 7 year point, we would have stalked out the ideal potential successor and kept tabs. It may be that transition to a new manager a little bit earlier would be preferable to missing the chance and falling back on the wrong one if Klopp leaves and the right person isn't available.
But I think our first order of priority should be trying to figure out any way possible to keep Klopp interested and motivated to do as long a stint as we can.

Not to take this off-topic (i.e. away from the subject of Michael Edwards), and maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part, but to me it’s certainly not a given, or even probable, that Klopp leaves this job after 7 years, or whatever the case may be.

It’s certainly possible: no one can see inside the mind of another human being or predict what the future will bring. It’s easy to forget sometimes (well, maybe not when you hear him speak ;D) that the man is German. At some point, perhaps like Ireland’s Kiwi rugby coach Joe Schmidt, regardless of how well the job is going, he might want to move his family back home. And that’s assuming he remains successful: who would have predicted that just eighteen months after the agonising defeat to Bayern in club football’s showpiece occasion at Wembley, his Borussia Dortmund side would be bottom of the Bundesliga? A quick appraisal of Klopp’s history as a manager and Liverpool’s as a club, where Kenny Dalglish once resigned abruptly in the middle of a season and Rafa Benítez was thrown out like yesterday’s garbage for finishing 7th and reaching a European semi-final, should make it abundantly clear that things can change very quickly in football and a club must be prepared for anything.

So I too would like to think that there is a plan in place in the event that Klopp, for whatever reason, were to leave the club suddenly, preferably one that doesn’t simply involve picking up the bat-phone to Steven Gerrard wherever he happens to be at that point in his managerial career and hoping for the best. At the very least, I hope that someone within the Liverpool hierarchy is keeping a watchful eye on events in dugouts throughout European and world football, as they would do with potential signings on the playing side, and is developing and maintaining an understanding as regards: (a) who the best managers in world football are, and (b) which of them would suit this club, its players and its structure at any given moment in time. The last time we lost a bonafide world-class manager, the line of succession went: Roy fn Hodgson — a manager who hadn’t managed in the best part of a decade — a manager with one year of top-flight experience. Some plan. That obviously can’t be allowed to happen again.

Klopp, however, is a unique character. He has managed three clubs in approx. 17 years and, as we know, the duration of his first two jobs happened to be the same (7 years). Naturally, there are implications that his “shelf-life” in a job is limited and that he therefore might leave Anfield in a similar fashion after 7 years or so. To me, that’s a stretch. To me, the pattern with Klopp (if there is one) isn’t the length of time he stays at a club (I have to believe that 7 years at both Mainz and Dortmund is purely a coincidence) but his reasons for leaving.

His last two seasons at Mainz resulted in a relegation and a failed promotion. As someone who clearly enjoys winning, he was under a lot of strain after those two failures, I’m sure, but unlike his sabbatical after leaving Dortmund he didn’t take any time off after Mainz. He was keen to get right back on the managerial horse and, no doubt, was also excited at the prospect of managing a more powerful club. And as regards his exit from Dortmund, while there is no doubt that seeing your team sitting bottom of the table halfway through a season would bring a ton of stress, both from within and without, I suspect the recent loss of his two best players to Bayern (Gotze and Lewandowski) also probably convinced him that he was always going to be working with one hand tied behind his back there. In other words, in both jobs, he realised that he had taken the club as far as he could. There was a glass ceiling that he felt he could no longer break through. At Mainz, the cycle of relegation—promotion was likely to continue and, with Guardiola in place (“I can’t make myself shorter and learn Spanish”) and Bayern picking off his players at will (Hummels would also leave for Bavaria after Klopp’s departure), it was becoming increasingly unlikely that he would equal past glories at Dortmund.

His situation at Liverpool is different in a number of respects. He has now been backed financially to the point where, as the manager who signed them, his name is listed beside the most expensive goalkeeper and defender in the history of the sport. While Bayern were always the big dog in the Bundesliga yard, his current club has a history and a worldwide reach that dwarfs all domestic pretenders to their territory bar Manchester United, as well as most internationally. And after years of mismanagement on that front, the club is now exploiting that reach to the fullest. The challenges remain and perhaps even exceed the problem of overcoming Bayern at Dortmund, where a wrong managerial appointment or a poor signing could at least give the underdog an opening to exploit. There are five major clubs in England instead of one, and if a couple are in transition (e.g. Arsenal, Manchester United) you will still face three daunting opponents, one of whom is financially doped-up to its vein-popped eyes. Furthermore, Coutinho’s departure for Barcelona must have undermined his work in much the same way as the Bavarian giants once did with Gotze and Lewandowski, a reminder, as HBHR put it the other day, that he will still have to contend with predators.

But, for the first time in his career, these are challenges that Klopp has been given the tools to overcome. The Coutinho money essentially going straight back into his squad was huge, as we know, and he has a support system around him that gives him a real chance of building long-lasting success. He once said during his time at Dortmund: “We have a bow and arrow and if we aim well, we can hit the target. The problem is that Bayern has a bazooka.” Well despite Manchester City’s riches, that’s no longer the case. In fact, as his team enters the Etihad for a pivotal game with Guardiola’s new club tomorrow night, he might even be minded to look over at Pep and ask to compare the size of their guns.

As for other jobs, the stints at Mainz and Dortmund do illustrate that the German is not a restless manager. He devoted over 14 years to those two clubs, often without silverware to show for it, whereas two of his biggest rivals (Guardiola and Mourinho) have often been hard-pushed to manage more than three. Upon joining Liverpool, he called it an “honour”; he said “it feels like a dream…the best thing I can imagine”. After a few months out of the game, the German’s profile was high enough that he could have easily bided his time and waited for whatever job he coveted in world football, but he said of Liverpool that “the owners have a dream and I have a dream, and so there was not too much they had to say so I could be here.”

Honestly, I don’t think there are too many other jobs that would tempt him for some time, assuming things keep going well. He has spoken before, as I recall, of how being able to speak the language was an important factor in accepting Liverpool’s offer, and more recently responded to De Laurentiis’ comments about previously offering him the Napoli job by saying “unfortunately I don’t speak the language that well”. So it’s a German or English team he would be leaving for, then. Unless he has a massive falling out with someone above him, I don’t see any other club in England being a better fit for him or in a better position to offer success than Liverpool right now. That leaves Bayern and the German national team. I don’t know his feelings about Bayern. It could be a job he secretly covets, or he could hate their guts, who knows? But would he really want to give over some of his prime years as a manager (he’s 51 now) to managing a national team, especially one that has so recently experienced the ultimate success? Perhaps if the pressures of club football become too much?

Well, the pressures of the job will always be there, and he did take a sabbatical after leaving Dortmund. But the man clearly eats, sleeps and dreams football to such an extent that “a holiday for four months…was great, but it was enough.” And even the things he did during that “holiday” were football-related: “I could get interested in many different things and had a few perfect meetings with some very clever and smart people to talk about football, to talk about nutrition and to talk about so many things. Then I felt that if someone interesting called me, I was prepared. Now I am really relaxed”. A four-month break after 14/15 years of non-stop management, and he was ready to go again. His appetite for the game is huge, and his love for Liverpool is clear. Barring anything unforeseen, maybe he’ll double his respective stays at Mainz and Dortmund?
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #477 on: January 2, 2019, 06:33:11 pm »
Here is Michael Zorc on his role at Dortmund.

Who better to describe the role than Zorc, a Dortmund legend as a player, and a man who has arguably been still more influential for the club off the pitch, orchestrating the arrival of the likes of Robert Lewandowski, Shinji Kagawa and Ousmane Dembele at the Signal Iduna Park.

But as he explains, the sporting director's responsibility runs far deeper than simply convincing players to sign on the dotted line as he plays strategist, sounding board, and even lunch date to BVB's local heroes.

“I’m also responsible for the philosophy at the club from the youth to the first team,” said the man who brought Jürgen Klopp to the club for what many consider the most successful chapter in Dortmund's history.

“I discuss the style of play with the coach, and the youth teams will follow that. But for our fans it has to be daring and attacking. The CEO handles the budget you have, but as well as buying, selling and extending players’ contracts, I'm also someone they can talk to besides the coach. I’m always with the team during matches. I attend all training sessions and will often even eat with the players so they know someone from the club is looking out for them.”


The key part for me is the bolded bit does anyone actually believe that it is Edwards and not Klopp who is responsible for the philosophy of the Club. Edwards was an apprentice footballer who was let go and then turned to education and then has spent his career as an analyst.

All the managers we have appointed under FSG have been appointed by the owners. So I think it is a huge assumption that the next appointment will be made by Edwards.

Real Madrid and Barca though have a certain way of running the Club and an identity. Madrid believe in galacticos and an experienced dressing room. Barca are based on the Dutch culture of Cruyff. Plus they have an incredible financial advantage compared to the rest of their League.

Are we really trying to build that here ?

Comolli is pretty much the definition of a DoF without a philosophy though. He is a numbers guy who looks to buy players who will increase in value. Martin Jol summed it when he said that Comolli was more interested in buying younger players whose value would increase rather than the players Jol actually needed. The proof was in the pudding as they say and Comolli was appointed at both Spurs and St Etienne with the Clubs knocking on the door of the Champions League he was sacked from both Clubs with them staring relegation in the face.

As for the system producing Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Coutinho. I think that is an incredible stretch. Liverpool didn't produce Suarez or Sturridge they were already top drawer talents especially Suarez. Sterling was brought in by Rafa and was a huge talent.

Firstly attacking Football isn't a philosophy it is an intention. It is how you generate the attacking Football that is the philosophy. Rodgers believed that dominating possession would win you games whereas Klopp's philosophy is about geggenpressing and latterly controling games. For me those are the philosophies and not an intention to play attacking football.

You are quite correct that we have reached a CL final and are top of the League but Klopp has already done that before at a Club with a fraction of our results. Edwards is quite clearly an excellent analyst but for me to expect some one with no top flight experience as a player or as a coach to define one of the biggest Clubs in the World's philosophy seems bizarre. 

I didn’t say Edwards Defined it. I’m saying the current *team* of management we have (a football club is not only a football team, so you need other non-football managers), is building a system which will hopefully give us sustained success. Part of that was bringing in Klopp, a manager who’s stamped his mark on the football team and club like few before him so far. He’s got a good few years with us, hopefully, and in that time we’re going to win trophies. Where Edwards, and the others come into it, is to make sure when Klopp leaves we don’t fall apart, like most clubs seem to do. Barcelona and Real Madrid were 2 examples of big clubs constantly challenging, despite the manager.

I don’t care to talk about the system Barcelona or Real have, in terms of philosohies of playing and whether they’re right or wrong. Or even debate the definition of “philosophy”, they’re all moot and don’t add anything to the point I was making. The point I was trying to make, was it’s good to see the club’s management working so well together and to express the hope the system in place now, after many years of development under FSG, will lead to sustained success over decades.

Decades over which many players will have gone, a handful of managers across the footballing and non-footballing side will also have come and gone, but we should all hopefully still be here watching a winning team.

Edwards and Rafa’s footballing backgrounds - again, pretty moot. Edwards, as long as he carries on working well with the management of the playing side and the powers that write the cheques, should do well - his first bing test was helping put together a winning team. His next big tests will be to maintain a winning team and managing turnover of players and in many years (hopefully), Klopp.

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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #478 on: January 2, 2019, 06:40:08 pm »
I didn't say they shouldn't attend at all, obviously they would attend certain sessions to gain insight on what is going on in training, but being there every week feels like overreach of role.

If he is at training, when does he have the time to do his own work, assuming his role is vastly different to Klopp's (genuine question PoP)?

A single training session is about 60-120 minutes. One morning session per week isn't going to massively impact his role, and he really only needs to do it once per week (and even then, there's nothing stopping him from skipping a session when needed).

The reason why the Boot Room kept those big notebooks was because you're always trying to catch lightning in a bottle with coaching, and when you do, you want to know what you did right, and when things break down, you want to know what you did wrong (a practice that is now part of every coaching federations methodology!). If you're intrinsically involved with the hiring of the next coaching staff, and you're replacing a good coaching staff with proven methods, you really should have a good idea of what the general things that good coaches do are. If you've played at a high level or coached for a decent amount of time, then you'll have a good idea.

Which is why I think high level players work better as DoF's than as coaches. But if you didn't play under great coaches, or haven't spent a lot of time on your own coaching ability, then you won't really know what to look for in coaches, other than their win/loss records, which can often be a false indicator of coaching ability. So while I would agree with you that Zorc himself might have been over-involving himself in the day-to-day training, I think for any DoF, it's important to see what the coaches are doing week-to-week, so that you have a template to work from when the inevitable task of replacement arrives.
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Re: Michael Edwards set to become Liverpool's sporting director
« Reply #479 on: January 2, 2019, 06:40:51 pm »
From the Echo:

My point was to MightyRed saying he didn't see why a DoF needed to be at training sessions. My point is that when you get a successful coach who is improving the team, and you are the person tasked with hiring their eventual successor, then it should be of paramount importance to be on the field at intervals to see what the training looks like in terms of structure, organisation, coaching points, coaching style, periodisation, duration, intensity, topics covered, ratio of fitness to tactical work, etc.

Because if you don't know what good coaching looks like, your next appointment is basically a shot in the dark.

I dont get that mate.  If we were looking to hire a new manager how would Edwards, or anyone else at LFC know how that particular manager took training sessions before we hired them?

I doubt Levy has invited Woodward down to watch Pochetino take a training session
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