Topic: Darwin Núñez (Darwin Gabriel Núñez Ribeiro)

[Eeyore]

The season before Mane joined we finished 8th.

The season before Darwin joined we came 2nd with 92 points, won' both domestic trophies and reached the final of the CL

Worlds apart.

Mane's 13 goals that season he joined are not the same as Darwin's 11 last term. The situations they arrived in to and played their debut seasons in are as different as possibly could be.

Bad faith argument to suggest anything other than that.

Are you seriously talking about bad faith arguments?

The season before Mane joined we reached the League Cup final and lost on penalties to City. We also lost the Europa League final after knocking Dortmund on the way . We finished 8th in the League because Rodgers was in charge until October.

[Suareznumber7]

Are you seriously talking about bad faith arguments?

The season before Mane joined we reached the League Cup final and lost on penalties to City. We also lost the Europa League final after knocking Dortmund on the way . We finished 8th in the League because Rodgers was in charge until October.

Do you think that Nunez has had the same impact on the team that Mane did?

[Eeyore]

Do you think that Nunez has had the same impact on the team that Mane did?

No not at all. Mane was brilliant.

The thing is Nunez arrived at Liverpool as a 22 year old. At that stage of his career Mane was providing the kind of output that Nunez is producing now. Mane wasn't even an automatic starter at Southampton.

Mane became way more productive as he reached his peak and there is no reason Nunez can't do the same.

[Coolie High]

No not at all. Mane was brilliant.

The thing is Nunez arrived at Liverpool as a 22 year old. At that stage of his career Mane was providing the kind of output that Nunez is producing now. Mane wasn't even an automatic starter at Southampton.

Mane became way more productive as he reached his peak and there is no reason Nunez can't do the same.

You’re right but you’re better off comparing seasons because you’re not going to get the time here you do at lesser clubs, if it worked that way we would have kept Solanke and possibly wait for him to blossom into a world class player because all the signs were there.

It will be Nunez third season this coming season, in Manes third season he scored 22 goals(no penalties) and emerged as one of the best players in the league and Europe, Nunez I feel will need to have a similar step up.

It hasn’t been a bad 2nd season for him at all though, the microscope is shone on him brighter because of our failures elsewhere.

[Eeyore]

You’re right but you’re better off comparing seasons because you’re not going to get the time here you do at lesser clubs, if it worked that way we would have kept Solanke and possibly wait for him to blossom into a world class player because all the signs were there.

It will be Nunez third season this coming season, in Manes third season he scored 22 goals(no penalties) and emerged as one of the best players in the league and Europe, Nunez I feel will need to have a similar step up.

It hasn’t been a bad 2nd season for him at all though, the microscope is shone on him brighter because of our failures elsewhere.

Agree completely.

Nunez has been rather underwhelming so far. He has to step up next season. The thing is he has shown glimpses of having the ability to do that whilst also putting in pretty good numbers.

I would love to see the way our fanbase would react to a Højlund or an Antony. We have been absolutely spoilt. Nunez is being condemned for not being as good as some of the best forwards in our history. It is fucking nuts.

Nunez may not have ripped trees so far but he has done enough to at least deserve a chance to prove the naysayers wrong.

[Darren G]

There isn't a remotely coherent argument to be made that p90 is not the best way to look at any stat. It has its limitations (sub effects and similar), but is vastly superior to any other way to presenting the data. To refuse to see that is myopic at best, but pure foolishness most of the time. It is not cherry picking, it is basic data literacy.

It would seem bizarre to sell him now we've put the data nerds in charge. If he were to be put up for sale (particularly for less than we bought him), I'm not sure our club's email system would be capable of withstanding the number of inquiries we would have. It is fair to say there is a disconnect between how the world's recruitment analysts see him and members of our own fan base. The question you should ask yourself is why do you see it so differently to those paid to see the value of players? If your position is that Edwards, and every statistical analyst in the world are all chancers who don't understand football, fair enough. That is at least a consistent position, but you must be terrified of what is to come.

Context is important. The conversation prior to that had nothing to do with p90. It has nothing to do with being myopic or whatever other bollocks you're suggesting. As for all of the strawman shite about Edwards, I never suggested anything like what you are claiming. As for the cherry picking, Al complared other top scorers in the league to Darwin whilst looking at minutes played, but only used players that fit his narrative whilst omitting others that didn't. So yes, that's cherry-picking. Again, context is important. If you're going to critique something, at least try to understand what it is that you're critiquing.

[Eeyore]

Context is important. The conversation prior to that had nothing to do with p90. It has nothing to do with being myopic or whatever other bollocks you're suggesting. As for all of the strawman shite about Edwards, I never suggested anything like what you are claiming. As for the cherry picking, Al complared other top scorers in the league to Darwin whilst looking at minutes played, but only used players that fit his narrative whilst omitting others that didn't. So yes, that's cherry-picking. Again, context is important. If you're going to critique something, at least try to understand what it is that you're critiquing.

Who did I admit?

[Darren G]

Who did I admit?

"Nunez is being compared to the current top goalscorers in the League. The likes of Watkins, Solanke, Bowen etc. The thing is they are all playing 3000 plus minutes this season."



Palmer: 20 league goals, 2162 minutes
Isak: 19 league goals, 1942 minutes
Haaland 21 league goals, 2211 minutes
Salah 17 league goals, 2264 minutes

[Cpt_Reina]

Are you seriously talking about bad faith arguments?

The season before Mane joined we reached the League Cup final and lost on penalties to City. We also lost the Europa League final after knocking Dortmund on the way . We finished 8th in the League because Rodgers was in charge until October.

Sure. So the team Darwin joined which was full of players that had won literally every competition available to them, and had come 2 results away from an unprecedented quadruple was just as good as the side Mane joined.

No variables at all. 1 for 1 across the park it was flat. Mane walked in to just as favourable a situation as Nunez.

If you say so.

[lionel_messias]

We were blessed with the signings of Firmino, Mane and Salah.

3 of the best in 40 years of business: and even better as a trio.

Nunez, Gakpo, Diaz?

Good players but collectively and individually not there yet or flawed.

Seems to me Darwin is a crazy individualist in a "system"
world. Glad it will Arne Slot's problem soon.

If Darwin doesn't do calm finishes, maybe he'll be better used at a second striker or from the left;
where he can still be a devastating weapon...

[Draex]

11 league goals and none against the top 6 sides.

He's gone from 9 league goals (29 apps) and 15 in all comps (42 apps) last season to 11 league goals (33 apps) and 18 in all comps (51 apps) this season.

He needs to improve if he wants to be leading the line for a title winning side, it's as simple as that.

[Knight]

11 league goals and none against the top 6 sides.

He's gone from 9 league goals (29 apps) and 15 in all comps (42 apps) last season to 11 league goals (33 apps) and 18 in all comps (51 apps) this season.

He needs to improve if he wants to be leading the line for a title winning side, it's as simple as that.

Salah has one more non penalty league goal than him.

[Cpt_Reina]

Salah has one more non penalty league goal than him.

Indeed. And it's probably time for him to go too for that very reason.

[Draex]

Salah has one more non penalty league goal than him.

Salah has scored against the top 6, thats probably the biggest point, in the biggest games where a goal decides it, Nunez has come up short.

[Avens]

11 league goals and none against the top 6 sides.

He's gone from 9 league goals (29 apps) and 15 in all comps (42 apps) last season to 11 league goals (33 apps) and 18 in all comps (51 apps) this season.

He needs to improve if he wants to be leading the line for a title winning side, it's as simple as that.

I think this is absolutely fair to say, but also I sincerely hope he's given the chance to do that with us.

[Eeyore]

"Nunez is being compared to the current top goalscorers in the League. The likes of Watkins, Solanke, Bowen etc. The thing is they are all playing 3000 plus minutes this season."



Palmer: 20 league goals, 2162 minutes
Isak: 19 league goals, 1942 minutes
Haaland 21 league goals, 2211 minutes
Salah 17 league goals, 2264 minutes

Palmer has scored 9 penalties, Isak and Salah 5 and Haaland 4. That makes a massive difference.

[JackWard33]

Indeed. And it's probably time for him to go too for that very reason.

Liverpool fans take is currently - we’ve got 3 top level forwards … 1 of them can’t stay fit .. hope the other two leave

[Knight]

Salah has scored against the top 6, thats probably the biggest point, in the biggest games where a goal decides it, Nunez has come up short.

The current top 6 sure. But then Nunez has scored big goals at important times and when his brace beat Newcastle they were top 4 from last season. And also, our issues against the top 6 go way beyond Nunez and I’d be surprised if Nunez’s poor production against the top 6 is the cause of them. Much more likely to be the symptom of several issues - amongst them an inability to keep clean sheets and really, really poor buildup play from the back when we’re pressed.

[Fromola]

Isak looks a better player, pure and simple. As I've said I hope Nunez proves me wrong, but history shows big money signings at LFC don't dramatically get better going into their 3rd season

This isn't to write him off as a result of past transfers, but are their Liverpool forwards who have really come good after not living up to their billing in their first season or two?

Liverpool forwards who really succeed tend to look the part very quickly. Firmino needed the change of manager, maybe that could help. If he does stay then it's make or break next year. And a summer with Bielsa will either do him good or ruin him physically.

[MonsLibpool]

This isn't to write him off as a result of past transfers, but are their Liverpool forwards who have really come good after not living up to their billing in their first season or two?

Liverpool forwards who really succeed tend to look the part very quickly. Firmino needed the change of manager, maybe that could help. If he does stay then it's make or break next year. And a summer with Bielsa will either do him good or ruin him physically.

It's fine for a player to need time but I think Darwin's fee is a factor.

If he'd cost £40m, his thread would be a lot shorter but for what we agreed to pay, an instant impact was expected.  I hope that if we make a big signing this summer,  the player won't need 3 seasons.

It's very simple, big fee=big expectations

[Draex]

The current top 6 sure. But then Nunez has scored big goals at important times and when his brace beat Newcastle they were top 4 from last season. And also, our issues against the top 6 go way beyond Nunez and I’d be surprised if Nunez’s poor production against the top 6 is the cause of them. Much more likely to be the symptom of several issues - amongst them an inability to keep clean sheets and really, really poor buildup play from the back when we’re pressed.

Newcastle was a long time ago, as I said originally it's about consistency.

The team got itself in some sort of jam where the forwards knew the defence couldn't stop conceeding and the defence knew the forwards wouldn't score.. The trust had broken down.

We were at our best when we evolved to a team which won lots of games 1-0 and that was the defence being solid and the forwards always taking a chance (or a set piece goal). For that you need everyone to be consistent and not erratic.

[Eeyore]

Isak looks a better player, pure and simple. As I've said I hope Nunez proves me wrong, but history shows big money signings at LFC don't dramatically get better going into their 3rd season

There are a couple of mitigations though how many times have we spent big on a 23 year old and how many times have we had 5 top class forwards competing for three starting spots. I would say Suarez and Henderson were young players who took a while to get going and players like Alonso and Szobozslai started well but then had dips in form.

[Cpt_Reina]

Liverpool fans take is currently - we’ve got 3 top level forwards … 1 of them can’t stay fit .. hope the other two leave

Its a good job you're allowed to buy as well as sell isn't it?

And we have our top level data nerds back in charge of recruitment. Light work.

[mullyred94]

Bin him, buy isak ans better hope one of the 10 touches he gets all game goes in then

[Darren G]

Palmer has scored 9 penalties, Isak and Salah 5 and Haaland 4. That makes a massive difference.

 You didn't pick the players that you did because you were discounting penalties. Rather, you deliberately picked three players that had high minutes and deliberately discounted the rest. Even out of the players that you did pick, only one of three was over 3000 minutes, not "they are all playing 3000 plus minutes this season". Palmer I'll grant you is an statistical outlier with 9 pens. How about Foden then? A midfielder with 0 pens and 16 league goals. Son? Take Haalands penalties out of the equation and he's still got 17. Isaak still has 4 more than Nunez also. Darwin also had a penalty this season. He missed it.

If you really want to continue to talk about minutes though, lets have a look at the players around the same league goals and similar minutes as Nunez:

Nunez: 11 league goals, 1995 minutes

Jean-Philippe Mateta:  11 league goals, 2072 minutes
Hwang Hee-chan: 11 league goals, 1882 minutes
Matheus Cunha: 11 league goals, 2198 minutes
Chris Wood: 12 league goals, 1555 minutes

So that's the actual company Nunez has been keeping in terms of goal output/minutes. He's performed at around and in some cases below players playing in lower table and relegation teams. Hardly big names are they. but you want to discuss goals in relation to the number of minutes played, then that has been Darwin's level this season. 

[mullyred94]

Wood has scored more than Jota, should sell him play wood upfront and Nunez off the left then?


Assists don’t matter here apparently

[Darren G]

Wood has scored more than Jota, should sell him play wood upfront and Nunez off the left then?


Assists don’t matter here apparently

Not what the conversation has been about. Al has been trying to justify Darwin's lack of goals as a result of less minutes played than by other forwards. So if you don't understand the context of the conversation, then perhaps don't jump in being a dickhead.

[mullyred94]

Not what the conversation has been about. Al has been trying to justify Darwin's lack of goals as a result of less minutes played than by other forwards. So if you don't understand the context of the conversation, then perhaps don't jump in being a dickhead.

Oh wow I’m so ashamed now

[AndyMuller]

He simply needs to do better next season.

[Mr Dilkington]

Head loss all over the gaff in here.

[Darren G]

Oh wow I’m so ashamed now

Grow the fuck up.

[mullyred94]

Grow the fuck up.

You called me a dickhead in a forum about A Liverpool player yet I need to grow up?

[Spezialo]

I would love to see the way our fanbase would react to a Højlund or an Antony. We have been absolutely spoilt. Nunez is being condemned for not being as good as some of the best forwards in our history. It is fucking nuts.

Maybe so by some. But there are a lot condemning him because he has an awful touch most of the time, tackles himself, constantly offside, doesn't think about his finishing. It's simple things.

[Mighty_Red]

There's no real debate around his goalscoring - his finishing is not good enough and it is going to take a lot of mental work as well as work on the training pitch to inprove that.

What has been alarming is his overall contribution and the way it has dipped since the Sparta games. Till now, Darwin has had a very good season - he has created chances and space for others and he has run defenders ragged even if the appalling misses have continued.

Now we have the problem that he is not really doing as much work off the ball and if you are also not scoring then it's detrimental to the team.

Is he also tired/struggling with knocks? We want players to come alive at this point of the season, not shrink. It feels like its a constant battle for the coaching staff to keep him confident and relaxed.

[Scottymuser]

You’re right but you’re better off comparing seasons because you’re not going to get the time here you do at lesser clubs, if it worked that way we would have kept Solanke and possibly wait for him to blossom into a world class player because all the signs were there.

It will be Nunez third season this coming season, in Manes third season he scored 22 goals(no penalties) and emerged as one of the best players in the league and Europe, Nunez I feel will need to have a similar step up.

It hasn’t been a bad 2nd season for him at all though, the microscope is shone on him brighter because of our failures elsewhere.

Why are people on here deliberately ignoring all round play and creation of chances etc.  Mane, in his third season, with more than 3000 mins had 23 goal involvements.  Nunez this season, at a younger age than Mane, and on less than 2000 mins, has 19.  So thats only 4 fewer.  And at a much better rate. 

[Darren G]

You called me a dickhead in a forum about A Liverpool player yet I need to grow up?

Yeah, I did, because the whole tone of your post was just snide shite and served no purpose other than to be such.  If you want to debate the points, then I'm happy to have a respectful debate with you. But if you're going to deliberately post incendiary crap, having not even understood the purpose of the conversation, then that's another matter.  And yes, the response of "Oh wow I’m so ashamed now" was unbelievably childish.

[Scottymuser]

There's no real debate around his goalscoring - his finishing is not good enough and it is going to take a lot of mental work as well as work on the training pitch to inprove that.

What has been alarming is his overall contribution and the way it has dipped since the Sparta games. Till now, Darwin has had a very good season - he has created chances and space for others and he has run defenders ragged even if the appalling misses have continued.

Now we have the problem that he is not really doing as much work off the ball and if you are also not scoring then it's detrimental to the team.

Is he also tired/struggling with knocks? We want players to come alive at this point of the season, not shrink. It feels like its a constant battle for the coaching staff to keep him confident and relaxed.

I don't think it is fair to say that it is a "lot" of work - lets not forget that 12 of the finishes hit the woodwork (often with a finger tipped save from the keeper) - so 1 inch here or there and he is a 20 goal, 10 assist a season striker without any problem

[Eeyore]

You didn't pick the players that you did because you were discounting penalties. Rather, you deliberately picked three players that had high minutes and deliberately discounted the rest. Even out of the players that you did pick, only one of three was over 3000 minutes, not "they are all playing 3000 plus minutes this season". Palmer I'll grant you is an statistical outlier with 9 pens. How about Foden then? A midfielder with 0 pens and 16 league goals. Son? Take Haalands penalties out of the equation and he's still got 17. Isaak still has 4 more than Nunez also. Darwin also had a penalty this season. He missed it.

If you really want to continue to talk about minutes though, lets have a look at the players around the same league goals and similar minutes as Nunez:

Nunez: 11 league goals, 1995 minutes

Jean-Philippe Mateta:  11 league goals, 2072 minutes
Hwang Hee-chan: 11 league goals, 1882 minutes
Matheus Cunha: 11 league goals, 2198 minutes
Chris Wood: 12 league goals, 1555 minutes

So that's the actual company Nunez has been keeping in terms of goal output/minutes. He's performed at around and in some cases below players playing in lower table and relegation teams. Hardly big names are they. but you want to discuss goals in relation to the number of minutes played, then that has been Darwin's level this season. 

I picked the players for a couple of reasons they had been brought up in the thread and crucially they had all improved their goalscoring records as they entered their prime.

Ironically the players you have listed have all done that. Over the two previous seasons, Mateta scored 2 League and 2 League goals, Hwang scored 3 and 5, Cunha scored 2 goals last season at Atletico and Wolves and Wood this season has scored at his best rate ever at 0.69 goals per 90 at the age of 31.

[Scottymuser]

He simply needs to do better next season.

How much better?  POTS?  Ballon D'Or winner?  As lets be honest, he is getting a (non-pen) goal or assist every 105 mins which only 5 players in the entire league are doing, and all of them are being discussed for Player of the year by many (and in fact, one for Ballon D'Or consideration). 

[mullyred94]

Yeah, I did, because the whole tone of your post was just snide shite and served no purpose other than to be such.  If you want to debate the points, then I'm happy to have a respectful debate with you. But if you're going to deliberately post incendiary crap, having not even understood the purpose of the conversation, then that's another matter.  And yes, the response of "Oh wow I’m so ashamed now" was unbelievably childish.

Maybe go read the points I've brought up in this thread.

Theres been times Wood has been compared to Nunez yet the lad has scored more than Jota ( which has also been brought up in here )

Only was snide because you called me a dickhead but I can be civil from now on 

I can exlaborate on Isak too who wasn't quoted.

Just like its been said take pen goals away from most of the top scorers and there numbers look oddly close to Nunez.

Add in assists in terms of goal contributions then he actually clears some of the players suggested in here that look like a better player then Nunez.

Isak is a 100% better finisher than Nunez but nothing else in his game is close to Nunez.

Klopps Liverpool don't play with a 9 that sits there and only gets onto the end of through balls or crosses.

Hence why Nunez has created 10+ goals for Salah in the league because the team is set up to feed Salah.

This last point isn't directed at you or anyone in particular but with the names being brought up to replace him its if they have never seen Liverpool play under Klopp or they have never seen the player actually play 90 minutes not against Liverpool.

The only players mentioned who would fit Klopps system is Bowen and if we signed him they'd be a meltdown in here.

Now speaking off going forward? I have no clue with the new manager etc.