Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[paisley1977]

 If it doesn't stop or the offenders aren't removed forfeit the game.

Your not removing 60% of the crowd and them knowing we'll forfeit the game it'll be more like 99%. 

[WorldChampions]

You could say the same for our club also.

Whether people are full out conspiracists, or believing that the refs club are clean as a hound's tooth, it is asking for trouble and incredibly unprofessional at best to be appointing referee's from rival towns and families for such a derby match.

100%. They should be shouting it from the rooftops.

[Magix]

If it's pretty unanimous that the PGMOL are unfit for purpose, an organisation with zero accountability and reflective practice, and in dire need of root-and-branch reform, why is the notion that against such a backdrop some form of officiating bias against us exists so hard for some to acknowledge?

[Draex]

If you are saying that an official isn't refereeing a game to the rules of football then that's corrupt isn't it?

Depends if you believe it's a pre-agreed thing to do Liverpool over, which no, I don't believe is what it is.

Is the PMGOL now corrupt because it's more interested in protecting it's incompetent officials rather than just implementing the letter of the law and learning from mistakes? Then yes it has become a corrupt organisation for those reasons.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Depends if you believe it's a pre-agreed thing to do Liverpool over, which no, I don't believe is what it is.

Is the PMGOL now corrupt because it's more interested in protecting it's incompetent officials rather than just implementing the letter of the law and learning from mistakes? Then yes it has become a corrupt organisation for those reasons.

It doesn't depend.

If you have an official and for whatever reason they aren't employing the rules of football fairly and correctly then is that corrupt?

Are you saying that the laws of football don't matter and any referee can give any decision they like in any circumstance and that's absolutely fine?

Talk me through the 5-0 at Old Trafford and Antony Taylors officiating of the game.

[Eeyore]

The implication of many in this thread is the PMGOL and it's members are out to get Liverpool, be that being paid off by cheaty or hating us because of where they come from. I do not believe it's corruption of those forms.

That is a fair and valid position to take. However it has no impact whatsoever on whether the PGMOL has corrupt practices and is therefore by definition a corrupt organisation. 

Having a body unaccountable and allowed to twist into the sheer incompetent closed ranks shitshow it is today, technically is that corruption? It's not the above for me, it's a body needing reform, ironically in todays world one of many, tory britain for you..

I see refs coming out against us at Anfield with the mindset they will not let the "kop" influence them, that is a weak / cowards mentality but it's not corruption because it's not Liverpool specifically more the beast the crowd is/represents i.e. how dare anyone question my ability as a ref.

Yes, what you describe is clearly a form of corruption.

I think it is clear that the PGMOL is clearly unfit for purpose. The point is how it got there. If you want a fit for purpose organisation then you put things in place to ensure it happens. You create a diverse and inclusive organisation by having an open and fair recruitment policy. The PGMOL is the antithesis of that. Nepotism is rife, there is no diversity and the vast majority of staff are basically white middle aged northern males. If you look at the PGMOL staff they are basically the select group from PGMOL's inception.

You have procedures in place to deal with criticism in a fair and open manner. You actively encourage your staff to challenge each other to be the best they can be. Again the PGMOL are the antithesis of that concept. Criticism is dealt with by closing ranks and attacking whoever criticises them. Criticism results in a vindictive reaction in which a referee who is criticised gets more of your games.

You have robust procedures in place that ensure you don't get conflicts of interest. The PGMOL doesn't do that. You can moonlight for a Clubs owner one day and then be officiating their closest rivals days later. You can then be selected for a title decider involving those two teams towards the end of the season.

There are so many simple changes that the PGMOL could make that would improve things immediately. Split VAR and the referees into two independent bodies each reporting to an independent body. Ban Referees working for clubs owners. Publish the transcript of every game. Allocate officials randomly and equally amongst the 20 teams in the League. That then reduces any bias and creates a level playing field. Publish the table that the PGMOL have that shows how well each official is doing and have promotion and relegation from the PGMOL select group.

Bring in Automated offsides and reduce the impact of human fallibility and bias. Use the PGMOL's psychologists to address any bias officials have and teach them to officiate fairly. Stop the absolute madness of allowing officials to referee the game in any manner they decide. A perfect example was the completely diverse manner in which Taylor and Coote officiated Sunday's game.

These are simple changes that would improve PGMOL. They won't do it because there is too much self-interest.

[Draex]

It doesn't depend.

If you have an official and for whatever reason they aren't employing the rules of football fairly and correctly then is that corrupt?

Are you saying that the laws of football don't matter and any referee can give any decision they like in any circumstance and that's absolutely fine?

Talk me through the 5-0 at Old Trafford and Antony Taylors officiating of the game.

I've answered your question Andy, asking me in a different way won't get you a different answer.

[Yorkykopite]

I never said that Yorky. I said I don't know how the likes of yourself feel but I also said too that maybe the likes of yourself don't feel this as deeply as the likes of those of us who without any shadow of a doubt do feel the anguish of this incredibly deeply because we don't believe that incompetence or human error is remotely near enough to explaining why and how all three crystal clear crucial possibly season defining incidents were ruled in favour of our opponents on the day. I say maybe because although I cannot actually know what you feel, at the same time I cannot in my own limited mind comprehend how anyone can feel it as deeply as I am feeling it and yet at the same time still steadfastly reject any notion that the officials for these episodes did not simply make errors but instead simply chose not to favour the team that they so manifestly should have ruled in favour of when all the evidence in front of them proved the opposite to be the case.

Fair enough Timbo. But I can assure there's no "maybe" about it. None at all.

On a separate note (or is it?) I was astounded at the imcompetence of the referee in the Saudi v West Ham match on Saturday. I've only just seen the goals, although I'd heard about Gordon's two pens. Neither was a penalty. The second one - which went to VAR - should actually have been a free kick to West Ham. Possibly the first too. It's quite clear what happened in both cases. Gordon couldn't reach the ball and therefore put his foot directly in the line of the West Ham player who could. In other words he kicked them. None of the referees at the match understood what they'd seen. I would say this is further proof that referees generally aren't equipped with enough knowledge of the game to be able to officiate it properly.

It took years before they got it into their thick skulls what a "Pires penalty" was - you know, where the attacker on the ball deliberately kicks the leg of the defender who is about to challenge them. It was an extremely slow education. Finally they got it and you don't often see pens given for such cheating anymore. But now we have the 'Gordon' and my guess is we'll see a hell of a lot more of it before the refs, as a body, cotton on.

(Alternatively I suppose you could argue that the ref was simply paid off by Saudi Arabia on Saturday).

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Fair enough Timbo. But I can assure there's no "maybe" about it. None at all.

On a separate note (or is it?) I was astounded at the imcompetence of the referee in the Saudi v West Ham match on Saturday. I've only just seen the goals, although I'd heard about Gordon's two pens. Neither was a penalty. The second one - which went to VAR - should actually have been a free kick to West Ham. Possibly the first too. It's quite clear what happened in both cases. Gordon couldn't reach the ball and therefore put his foot directly in the line of the West Ham player who could. In other words he kicked them. None of the referees at the match understood what they'd seen. I would say this is further proof that referees generally aren't equipped with enough knowledge of the game to be able to officiate it properly.

It took years before they got it into their thick skulls what a "Pires penalty" was - you know, where the attacker on the ball deliberately kicks the leg of the defender who is about to challenge them. It was an extremely slow education. Finally they got it and you don't often see pens given for such cheating anymore. But now we have the 'Gordon' and my guess is we'll see a hell of a lot more of it before the refs, as a body, cotton on.

(Alternatively I suppose you could argue that the ref was simply paid off by Saudi Arabia on Saturday).

What is your view of the VAR that didn't give the penno against Manchester City being given the ref assignment at Anfield on Thursday? How do you feel about Manchester United's Taylor being fourth official in that game and then refereeing his hometown club at their ground against us on Sunday, while Brookes has being given the VAR job for that fixture?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I've answered your question Andy, asking me in a different way won't get you a different answer.

Well I will put my position. For me, the job of the officails at football matches is to apply the laws of the game fairly and competently across the board - regardless of who the manager is. Regardless of who the player is. Regardless of who the club is. Regardless of where they were born.

Now that Taylor - a Mancunian - whose entire family all support Manchester United is once again going to be allowed to referee Manchester United v Liverpool after his disgusting and pathetic biased performance at Old Trafford, is laughable.

He did not apply the rules of the game - because if he had then the game would have been abandoned. We have actual players that were fouled on the floor before some gozzy eyed thug kicks fuck out of him when he's done and that isn't a red? According to Taylor, the Pogba assault wasn't even a red. We had the absolute shite kicked out of us and he just allowed it to happen - having a gob on him as bad as any other Manchester United fan pissed off that his team was getting twatted by Liverpool.


Do you think his officiating was fair and even and level-headed?

If you do, then I guess you don't mind him reffing on Sunday and you'll be mystified if he fucks us over - just another of those 'weird' things and with that dickhead on VAR, it's hard to see Brookes giving us anything either.

But you'll just be surprised and amazed and mystified by it all, because if the fuck us over then it's just some weird unexplainable thing that has never happened before and you'll agree everyone will be amazed?

[Yorkykopite]

What is your view of the VAR that didn't give the penno against Manchester City being given the ref assignment at Anfield on Thursday? How do you feel about Manchester United's Taylor being fourth official in that game and then refereeing his hometown club at their ground against us on Sunday, while Brookes has being given the VAR job for that fixture?

I worry slightly about the first. He obviously isn't a good referee since he missed what should have been fairly clear with the benefit of a replay from another angle. If Taylor is a Man United fan then it's a scandal that he has been chosen to referee a Man United match. The club should accordingly. And finally Brookes is terrible. I don't feel good about that at all.

Let me ask three questions of my own.

1. Why do you think Attwell has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match on Thursday?
2. Why do you think Taylor has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match v Man United.
3. Ditto Brookes (if you like)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I worry slightly about the first. He obviously isn't a good referee since he missed what should have been fairly clear with the benefit of a replay from another angle. If Taylor is a Man United fan then it's a scandal that he has been chosen to referee a Man United match. The club should accordingly. And finally Brookes is terrible. I don't feel good about that at all.

Let me ask three questions of my own.

1. Why do you think Attwell has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match on Thursday?
2. Why do you think Taylor has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match v Man United.
3. Ditto Brookes (if you like)

1. Because we get the same fuckers all the time. The ones that seem to make a lot of 'mistakes' at our matches. I expect he'll deny one or two stonewaller pennos for us, generally give most things to them and book more of our players after we commit more 'fouls' than a team that we'll probably have twice the possession of. Again. Been happening all season that. A team with the most possession and shots getting more free kicks against us and bollocks yellow cards - the last game barely had a bad challenge - bar on the one on Mac and Gomez - and he gave us 5 fucking yellow cards. Fucking laughable. So more of the same that we got from Coote the last game. Antony Taylor will just be the usual dickhead that he always is as fourth official.

2. Why does he keep getting our games? He officially supports Altringcham - but he's from Wythenshaw and his whole family have season tickets at Old Trafford. I find it remarkable that you think that having your entire family supporting a team won't influence you in the slightest. I think we should be too good for them, but I expect he'll do what he normally does - give loads of fouls against us for nothing, watch their players boot us up and down the park for 90 minutes and ignore probably red after probable red - like he did in the 5-0. I think we'll win. Despite the refereee. But there is also the chance that he'll send off one of ours early, give a dodgy penno and then we'd have to see from there. I'm sure they will all be honest 'mistakes' though.

3. No idea how Brookes is even employed as a match official. He's fucked us over several times this season already and I expect another bunch of 'mistakes' from him come Sunday.

[Yorkykopite]

I find it remarkable that you think that having your entire family supporting a team won't influence you in the slightest.

Just on this point, I didn't comment on this at all and therefore you cannot have found it "remarkable". The reason I didn't comment was that you didn't mention his entire family supported Man United. You actually said that he did, which of course is much more incriminating. My reply was that if you're right and Taylor does support Man United then I find it a "scandal" that he's refereeing our game against them. I also said that I would expect Liverpool Football Club to make an official complaint - which is a much more hardline position than you've taken. Why are you so soft on this?

[Eeyore]

Depends if you believe it's a pre-agreed thing to do Liverpool over, which no, I don't believe is what it is.

Is the PMGOL now corrupt because it's more interested in protecting it's incompetent officials rather than just implementing the letter of the law and learning from mistakes? Then yes it has become a corrupt organisation for those reasons.

My take is that the way PGMOL operates allows bias to flourish. That is corrupt.

The PGMOL aren't deliberately targeting Liverpool. It for me is a side effect of allowing bias to flourish. To be blunt there are more reasons to dislike LFC and scousers than every other team. We are anti-establishment and the people who are attracted to refereeing are typically pro-establishment. We are anti-monarchy and the PGMOL and its members are typically pro-monarchy. We are a left leaning City and the people who are attracted to organisations like the PGMOL are typically anti left wing.

We took on the establishment and uncovered the biggest miscarriage of justice at Hillsborough. The two senior figures at the PGMOL are Webb and Atkinson two ex-serving Yorkshire Police officers. The ingrained stereotypes are that scousers are dishonest and indulge in self-pity if they don't get their own way are going to influence officials. A huge number of decisions over a season are made depending on players reactions. That is going to be influenced by preconceptions regarding honestly and self pity.

An example would be organisation xyz that is backwards and bigoted. Refuses to modernise and is full of white middle aged males from a similar background who close ranks.

Now you have someone called Sophie who is a none binary person from an ethnic minority, with brightly coloured hair, who is anti-establishment, anti-monarchy and has a scouse accent. Now it would probably be wrong to say that organisation is automatically biased against Sophie. However, if the organisation is not pro-active and doesn't put in place robust protocols to stop their employees various biases then it is pretty inevitable that Sophie will suffer more than an individual who only has one of those characteristics.

Crucial to whether Sophie is treated fairly and whether the organisation is corrupt would be how they react to a complaint by Sophie. In the case of the PGMOL any complaint results in the closing of ranks and the complainee being subjected to further victimisation. You only work with the person you complained about one day a week well that is changing it is now three times a week.

That is why the PGMOL is corrupt for me and why Liverpool suffer more than anyone else.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Just on this point, I didn't comment on this at all and therefore you cannot have found it "remarkable". The reason I didn't comment was that you didn't mention his entire family supported Man United. You actually said that he did, which of course is much more incriminating. My reply was that if you're right and Taylor does support Man United then I find it a "scandal" that he's refereeing our game against them. I also said that I would expect Liverpool Football Club to make an official complaint - which is a much more hardline position than you've taken. Why are you so soft on this?

What will they do?

I know some professional referees from years back. They all lie on their form and can write what they want? One of the lads I know is from Liverpool and supports Liverpool and wrote a different team on the form and that was accepted - despite him sounding the most Scouse you could possible imagine.

What would the club say? PGMOL would say "Well. He wrote Altringcham on the form, so that's who he supports'


Do you honestly believe that any referee that supports a Big Club would write that down if it meant that they'd be missing half the gigs? Referees would have been into footy - probably been footy players themselves, certainly would be at some stage matchgoing fans - for instance a couple of years ago, Paul Tierney was spotted on camera in the Stretford End. He's from Wigan and put Wigan on his form. If you've worked or lived in Wigan then the majority of football fans there either support Manchester United or Liverpool and most also support Wigan.

If he wrote 'Manchester United' on his form, then he'd be denied lots of juicy gigs wouldn't he?

The only time I can remember anyone being remotely arsed about where refs were from was Mike Dean - who isn't even a Scouser not being allowed to ref Liverpool or Everton - despite most Tranmere fans fucking hating Liverpool and Everton more than the Mancs - he wasn't allowed to ref our games and got pulled from the cup final.

That seemed harsh, but sensible, but is never applied with Manchester or Greater Manchester born referees reffing Manchester Clubs or their hated rivals.

Why is that? They have 27 officials to pick from.

[Eeyore]

Fair enough Timbo. But I can assure there's no "maybe" about it. None at all.

On a separate note (or is it?) I was astounded at the imcompetence of the referee in the Saudi v West Ham match on Saturday. I've only just seen the goals, although I'd heard about Gordon's two pens. Neither was a penalty. The second one - which went to VAR - should actually have been a free kick to West Ham. Possibly the first too. It's quite clear what happened in both cases. Gordon couldn't reach the ball and therefore put his foot directly in the line of the West Ham player who could. In other words he kicked them. None of the referees at the match understood what they'd seen. I would say this is further proof that referees generally aren't equipped with enough knowledge of the game to be able to officiate it properly.

It took years before they got it into their thick skulls what a "Pires penalty" was - you know, where the attacker on the ball deliberately kicks the leg of the defender who is about to challenge them. It was an extremely slow education. Finally they got it and you don't often see pens given for such cheating anymore. But now we have the 'Gordon' and my guess is we'll see a hell of a lot more of it before the refs, as a body, cotton on.

(Alternatively I suppose you could argue that the ref was simply paid off by Saudi Arabia on Saturday).

Or you could look at the fact that players like Gordon, Grealish, Maddison and latterly Kane are officiated differently to say Salah. White middle aged officials favour English players. That is then reinforced by those English cheats being described as clever and professional. Whilst foreign players get treated in the exact opposite way. They are basically cheating bastards trying to con our officials and should be deported.

[Peabee]

Even if Taylor was the utmost professional who never let any biases influence his decisions, which is extremely difficult with instant decisions anyway, the optics of using a referee from the area, with family ST holders, isn't good, especially with all the complaints about refereeing this season. There's already major SM accounts posting jokes about Shaun ryder being the fourth official or when the first red will be shown to LFC players, etc. Even if he has a good game, any decision for United or against Liverpool will be questioned. The PL in 2007, with Dean, were clear that the appearance of impartiality was just as, well more than, important in their trust in Mike Dean to be impartial in the game. They also didn't want to put undue pressure on their referee. What's changed other than the leadership?

[Reds r coming up the hill]

Dreax … in one of your posts said we should be tougher and surround the refs etc…
Have you watched how we have been reffed this season??
Trent takes  10 seconds on a throw in and gets a yellow… we kick a ball away it’s a yellow … we ask for a card and it’s a yellow. Never mind a pull back on Salah is nothing while opposition players get the free kick.

How to f**k could we surround the ref or complain about decisions … it would backfire worse.

Another point was made that we can’t say anything about the refs ahead of the game but Ped did this a couple of weeks ago and got away with it not only before but after the game had his players given their own tv show to explain how the refs got decisions like the Doku kick correct.

To think we watch the same game and some see all the decisions on field , picking the refs, white washing the VAR…. all as somehow  explainable/innocent/ happens to everybody shite is amazing really.
But so what anyway!
When the soccer scandal in Italy was ongoing it was done by giving decisions against a team so they wouldn’t have their best players available for the next game … the cheating was not so obvious but all the small decisions in order to influence the overall game.

The start of the season we had crazy red cards against us denying us players for the next games… last week Macca and I think Endo get soft yellows so now only 2 more away from automatic bans … but nothing to see there either.

[Eeyore]

Taylor has done 4 Liverpool games this season.

The Chelsea game when he missed this handball.



The Brighton game in which he decided that this wasn't a DOGSO.



He decided Martinelli hadn't pushed VVD into Ali.

The only game we have won with Taylor officiating was at home to Newcastle when we had an xG of 7.27 which is a League record.

[Yorkykopite]

Or you could look at the fact that players like Gordon, Grealish, Maddison and latterly Kane are officiated differently to say Salah. White middle aged officials favour English players. That is then reinforced by those English cheats being described as clever and professional. Whilst foreign players get treated in the exact opposite way. They are basically cheating bastards trying to con our officials and should be deported.

Bloody 'ell, you're agreeing with me now....

I've also written, in the recent past, about low-level racial prejudice amongst referees. I think it's harder for overseas players, especially brown and black-skinned ones, to get free kicks than its is for players like Grealish and Harry Kane who have established positions in the England national team. But, I admit, I can't prove this either. This is not a problem suffered exclusively by Liverpool of course. 

Declan Rice is the latest beneficiary of this approach to refereeing of course. 

Andy Allerton - I'd seen that photo of Tierney on the Stretford End. Is it certifiably him or just a doppelgänger? I should add that I've once stood on the Stretford End (what a shitty little terrace it was). But maybe I won't mention this otherwise I'll get accused of being a Man United fan as well as everything else.

The stuff you've just written about Wigan confuses me since it doesn't help your case at all.

And finally can you point me to the evidence that all of Taylor's family are season ticket holders at Old Trafford? I don't think this means that he's necessarily a United fan himself, but it would be interesting to see the evidence nonetheless.

By the way my sister supports Everton and always has done. Again, I'm going to mention this for the obvious reasons.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Taylor has done 4 Liverpool games this season.

The Chelsea game when he missed this handball.



The Brighton game in which he decided that this wasn't a DOGSO.



He decided Martinelli hadn't pushed VVD into Ali.

The only game we have won with Taylor officiating was at home to Newcastle when we had an xG of 7.27 which is a League record.

Taylor in the 5-0 as you said decided this wasn't a red




he also decided that this wasn't a red either







There were three other tackles that could have been red that Taylor completely ignored.


All just 'honest mistakes' though.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

This is true, but it's not corruption, nor about where refs are from. The PMGOL are answerable to no-one and if any club spoke up on their own it would get worse.

English football had their chance in the aftermath of the Spurs failings, but petty tribalism got in the way. The managers now bleating about the poor quality of refs like Kompany and Postecoglou were the same ones saying how people make mistakes back then and we should move on.

The PMGOL is unfit for purpose.

I agree PGMOL is unfit for purpose.
But, if you’re describing treatment getting worse if anyone speaks up, that in itself is a hallmark of a corrupt organisation. If you question us, you will be punished.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Bloody 'ell, you're agreeing with me now....

Declan Rice is the latest beneficiary of this approach to refereeing of course. 

Andy Allerton - I'd seen that photo of Tierney on the Stretford End. Is it certifiably him or just a doppelgänger? I should add that I've once stood on the Stretford End (what a shitty little terrace it was). But maybe I won't mention this otherwise I'll get accused of being a Man United fan as well as everything else.

The stuff you've just written about Wigan confuses me since it doesn't help your case at all.

And finally can you point me to the evidence that all of Taylor's family are season ticket holders at Old Trafford? I don't think this means that he's necessarily a United fan himself, but it would be interesting to see the evidence nonetheless.

By the way my sister supports Everton and always has done. Again, I'm going to mention this for the obvious reasons.

If you were a referee, do you think you should be allowed to referee Liverpool games?

[Yorkykopite]

If you were a referee, do you think you should be allowed to referee Liverpool games?

Can you answer my questions first?

[Lee1-6Liv]

Why don't we ever get a referee from Merseyside refereeing our games? If it is fine for Manchester based refs doing Manchester based teams then surely we should be able to have Liverpool based refs?

[rob1966]

I worry slightly about the first. He obviously isn't a good referee since he missed what should have been fairly clear with the benefit of a replay from another angle. If Taylor is a Man United fan then it's a scandal that he has been chosen to referee a Man United match. The club should accordingly. And finally Brookes is terrible. I don't feel good about that at all.

Let me ask three questions of my own.

1. Why do you think Attwell has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match on Thursday? - Martin Atkinson, who never gave us a thing picks the refs/var - what I expect from him is him to fuck us over
2. Why do you think Taylor has been chosen - and what do you expect him to do during the match v Man United. - Martin Atkinson, who never gave us a thing picks the refs/var - what I expect from him is to allow Utd to kick the fuck out us us, not play advantages for us/play them for Utd and generally be one sided
3. Ditto Brookes (if you like)

With Taylor, he "claims" he supports Altrincham so they have to take him at his word. However, his family is all Utd, he grew up in Wythenshawe, a very much Scouse hating area of Manchester (I got sworn at walking around Wythenshawe hospital, with a scar from throat to belly button so it was obvious I'd just had major surgery in the hospital, for wearing LFC shorts, that how bad some of the rabid c*nts are), so there is no way he won't, at the least have an unconscious bias. Same with Kavanagh, hasn't declared who he supports, but he's from Ashton U Lyne and I've been told by someone who knows him its 95% he's a Utd fan (100% NOT City). It why a PROVEN Tranmere Rovers Supporter in Dean wasn't allowed to ref ours or Evertons games as he may have had an unconscious bias towards one of the two Merseyside clubs.

[Eeyore]

Bloody 'ell, you're agreeing with me now....

Declan Rice is the latest beneficiary of this approach to refereeing of course. 

Don't get too excited even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Your issue now is that you clearly believe that white English middle-aged officials are consciously or sub-consciously biased towards England players and biased against darker-skinned foreign players. That raises two issues firstly you believe that low-level xenophobia and racism affect the referee's decisions. Yet whilst acknowledging that scousers are disliked by the rest of the country and suffer prejudice you refuse to countenance that affects decision making. Dont you think that is hypocritical?

Secondly, your opinion is backed up completely by the data. So why haven't the PGMOL acted. I mean they have psychologists who could help the officials become less biased. They could take action against officials who give England players too many fouls and who give foreign players too few. Above all they could become an ethically diverse organisation that encourages people from all backgrounds to officiate games. Instead, if you look at a map of where referees come from it is almost Brexit Britain. Then you look at how insular the PGMOL is and it makes the BNP look diverse.

How referees treat Salah.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Can you answer my questions first?

I got told his family are United season ticket holders by two ex semi-pro refs that I used to work with. I have no reason to doubt them. Though, no doubt, you'll probably say they don't exist and I made them up - although a few people on here know the main one I'm talking about as they know him too. I doubt they know the other one as I worked with him and he doesn't go to the match.

Although Semi-pro is a different level, they have training days and training camps.

He's also from Wythenshaw which is a United support place in Manchester - or certainly was when I worked there.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Why don't we ever get a referee from Merseyside refereeing our games? If it is fine for Manchester based refs doing Manchester based teams then surely we should be able to have Liverpool based refs?

There is one Liverpool supporting referee in the league. He's not allowed to ref our games.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

With Taylor, he "claims" he supports Altrincham so they have to take him at his word. However, his family is all Utd, he grew up in Wythenshawe, a very much Scouse hating area of Manchester (I got sworn at walking around Wythenshawe hospital, with a scar from throat to belly button so it was obvious I'd just had major surgery in the hospital, for wearing LFC shorts, that how bad some of the rabid c*nts are), so there is no way he won't, at the least have an unconscious bias. Same with Kavanagh, hasn't declared who he supports, but he's from Ashton U Lyne and I've been told by someone who knows him its 95% he's a Utd fan (100% NOT City). It why a PROVEN Tranmere Rovers Supporter in Dean wasn't allowed to ref ours or Evertons games as he may have had an unconscious bias towards one of the two Merseyside clubs.

I used to do work for a bank in Wythenshaw so had to go there in the 90s. Like most areas of Manchester - you support a team based on where you live - there it was 100% United - and to be fair other cities usually have teams by area; Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham and the like - although it's changing a bit now as more people support bigger teams than their area, but not when I worked there - Liverpool is, as you know, very different with mixed families.

In the same way I used to work in Cheadle and they were all City fans.

[Yorkykopite]

I got told his family are United season ticket holders by two ex semi-pro refs that I used to work with. I have no reason to doubt them. Though, no doubt, you'll probably say they don't exist and I made them up - although a few people on here know the main one I'm talking about as they know him too. I doubt they know the other one as I worked with him and he doesn't go to the match.

Yabber, yabber, yabber. 

I won't say you made this up, but you'll have to forgive me for taking it with a pinch of salt.

And the famous picture of Tierney in the Stretford End (the Scoreboard end actually) that you always mention as proof. Your ace in reality. Is it definitely him?

[Eeyore]

I got told his family are United season ticket holders by two ex semi-pro refs that I used to work with. I have no reason to doubt them. Though, no doubt, you'll probably say they don't exist and I made them up - although a few people on here know the main one I'm talking about as they know him too. I doubt they know the other one as I worked with him and he doesn't go to the match.

Although Semi-pro is a different level, they have training days and training camps.

He's also from Wythenshaw which is a United support place in Manchester - or certainly was when I worked there.

It has been reported by a national newspaper that Tayor's family are United season ticket holders. I am not going to name the newspaper in question but it has been reported.

You also have the issue of Taylor taking his kids to school, doing the shopping or going for a pint. Why open yourself up to abuse by giving Liverpool a contentious decision?

I mean look at his treatment by Roma fans after a game in which he made a contentious decision. He and his family were abused in the airport and had to be shepherded away. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Yabber, yabber, yabber. 

I won't say you made this up, but you'll have to forgive me for taking it with a pinch of salt.

And the famous picture of Tierney in the Stretford End (the Scoreboard end actually) that you always mention as proof. Your ace in reality. Is it definitely him?

So I've answered your question. Do you think if you supported Liverpool FC that you should be allowed to referee Liverpool FC games?

Secondly, do you think if someone was born in Liverpool that there could be any conflict with them refereeing a team from Liverpool?

[Son of Spion]

If it's pretty unanimous that the PGMOL are unfit for purpose, an organisation with zero accountability and reflective practice, and in dire need of root-and-branch reform, why is the notion that against such a backdrop some form of officiating bias against us exists so hard for some to acknowledge?

It's an interesting question, because such an environment is a fertile breeding ground for bias to manifest. Add human psychology into the mix and the case for bias becomes all the more compelling.

Everyone, and I mean everyone is prone to prejudice and the bias which results from it. No one is exempt from that. It's part of human nature. This is why there are rules and laws in place in workplaces and society to combat prejudice and its manifestations.

If I was a referee and given free reign in a deeply flawed, lax, unprofessional and non self reflective organisation, then I'd 100% screw the Mancs over. I'd screw Everton over. And Chelsea and Abu Dhabi. Not all the time. Not in every game. But I'd screw them over when it really matters. One way or another. I'd do so because I could. I'd do so because my 'profession' would actually back me up. Now I'm a decent, honest type of guy. I'm an easy going type too. But in such a shambolic, unprofessional environment where bad practice is left unchecked, I'd probably let my inherent bias make some mischief.

Give a person power and control, then take away responsibility and accountability, and what you get is what we are seeing on the field of play. Personally, I can't understand why some people don't see this, but that's just me. Given the circumstances, it's a natural outcome.

Referees hold bias. They do so because they are human beings, and bias in human beings is natural. They are also football fans. That's why they are in the game. They will all have grown up supporting a certain club and disliking other rival clubs. They'll all have grown up in communities that see rival communities in a negative light. Bias will have become ingrained, because it's natural for it to do so. This is why if their profession seek to be fit for the purpose of refereeing a multi-billion pound industry to a high standard, they need to acknowledge their own failings, their own innate biases and acknowledge them, work on them and improve their practice. Otherwise, they will fail in their duties, and failing is exactly what they are doing right now. They, as a profession, are bringing the game into disrepute.

No profession that is so invested in arse-covering can ever be effective. A profession that cannot see its own flaws cannot address those flaws. A profession that also fines people who point out their failings is actually dangerous.

[Yorkykopite]

So I've answered your question. Do you think if you supported Liverpool FC that you should be allowed to referee Liverpool FC games?

Secondly, do you think if someone was born in Liverpool that there could be any conflict with them refereeing a team from Liverpool?

I had two questions. You keep ignoring the other.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I had two questions. You keep ignoring the other.

With your lack of answering any questions anyone asks you, it's hard to keep up where in your denial tree your at.

[Yorkykopite]

I'll answer your two since I have to go out now and play a round of crappy golf.

1. No (although I'd like to because Liverpool would win every game they played!)
2. A Liverpool fan should not be able to referee Liverpool games. An Everton fan should not be able to referee Everton games.

And the Tierney photo you keep posting as Queen's evidence. Is it definitely him?

[Eeyore]

This is from 8 years ago.

Hackett has described it as “grossly unfair” for Taylor to be put in this position and made it clear someone might have to take the rap. We all probably know what happens next. Any refereeing mistake that goes against Liverpool will bring more complaints of the same nature and the kind of backlash that once saw Ryan Babel, in his Anfield days, put a mocked-up photo online of Webb wearing the enemy’s kit. Anything in favour of Liverpool and you can bet your bottom dollar José Mourinho will be questioning whether the headlines impaired the referee’s judgment.

All of which feels very unsatisfactory, bearing in mind how quickly these controversies can attach themselves to a referee’s reputation (Webb knows all about that, too) and it is a bit rich on Halsey’s part given that early in his own refereeing career he officiated various QPR matches without thinking he should tell the relevant people he was one of their supporters.

The first was as a linesman at Loftus Road against Sheffield Wednesday in September 1995. Halsey also ran the line for a game against Manchester United in March 1996, a relegation season for QPR, and has joked down the years that he wishes he had raised his flag when Eric Cantona scored a late equaliser.

Eighteen months later, Halsey refereed a 1-0 win against Portsmouth at Loftus Road. John Spencer scored the winner just before half-time. “As the players dived on top of him in the six-yard box, little did anyone know in the stadium I wanted to join in,” Halsey writes in his autobiography.

Finally, there was an FA Cup tie against Huddersfield in January 1999. QPR were losing 1-0 and, with the game going into stoppage time, Halsey found himself “hoping they would equalise, not just as a referee who wanted to get the replay but also because they were my team.” They didn’t, and it was after that game he finally coughed up, four seasons too late.

[Red Beret]

Yabber, yabber, yabber. 

I won't say you made this up, but you'll have to forgive me for taking it with a pinch of salt.

And the famous picture of Tierney in the Stretford End (the Scoreboard end actually) that you always mention as proof. Your ace in reality. Is it definitely him?

Yorky, let's face it - we know that unless someone hands you a smoking gun dossier of proof then nothing will convince you. If you want to go down the "beyond reasonable doubt" route that's fine, but it doesn't make you right.

I've already said, if it's irrefutable proof you want, then there's none to be had. But if you want to take that absence as proof that we're talking out of our collective arse, then that's also up to you.

Personally, I'm glad I've largely stepped out of this thread, as it's just become another mousewheel discussion. Round in round in circles, same people, same arguments, with no chance of anybody convincing anybody else. It's all rather pointless now.

It's not like it's just Andy or Al airing grievances on the issue.

[nico 8]

Fair enough Timbo. But I can assure there's no "maybe" about it. None at all.

On a separate note (or is it?) I was astounded at the imcompetence of the referee in the Saudi v West Ham match on Saturday. I've only just seen the goals, although I'd heard about Gordon's two pens. Neither was a penalty. The second one - which went to VAR - should actually have been a free kick to West Ham. Possibly the first too. It's quite clear what happened in both cases. Gordon couldn't reach the ball and therefore put his foot directly in the line of the West Ham player who could. In other words he kicked them. None of the referees at the match understood what they'd seen. I would say this is further proof that referees generally aren't equipped with enough knowledge of the game to be able to officiate it properly.

It took years before they got it into their thick skulls what a "Pires penalty" was - you know, where the attacker on the ball deliberately kicks the leg of the defender who is about to challenge them. It was an extremely slow education. Finally they got it and you don't often see pens given for such cheating anymore. But now we have the 'Gordon' and my guess is we'll see a hell of a lot more of it before the refs, as a body, cotton on.

(Alternatively I suppose you could argue that the ref was simply paid off by Saudi Arabia on Saturday).

Gordon is simply a diving cheat. He has history doing it (not suggesting that he should be blown differently) and it astounds me anyone can believe it to be incompetence on the part of the referee and in particular VAR . If that is the case, Howard Webb should be removing them from the panel.  No-one saying he was paid off but such conduct is really inexplicable. There really is a need  for dialogue in real time between the officials that speaks to the viewers as in rugby in why they arrive at a decision. Unfortunately that ship has sailed after the tribalism on show after the Spurs debacle.