Author Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!  (Read 182617 times)

Online Eeyore

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3520 on: April 2, 2024, 03:28:15 pm »
From ESPN.

Of the 20 VAR errors this season, 17 have been for missed interventions, with two decisions changed incorrectly and one situation where the VAR wrongly rejected an overturn at the pitchside monitor. Last season, the 25 mistakes were made up of 18 missed interventions and seven incorrectly changed decisions.

ESPN can reveal that Premier League leaders Liverpool have been most affected in the 2023-24 campaign, with four VAR errors against them. Brighton & Hove Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers have each suffered three mistakes, with Arsenal two and eight other clubs on one each.


Surprise Surprise. The teams with managers who have been the most outspoken about PGMOL Klopp, De Zerbi and O'Neil have been shafted the most by VAR.

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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3521 on: April 2, 2024, 03:50:03 pm »
Yorky, let's face it - we know that unless someone hands you a smoking gun dossier of proof then nothing will convince you. If you want to go down the "beyond reasonable doubt" route that's fine, but it doesn't make you right.

I've already said, if it's irrefutable proof you want, then there's none to be had. But if you want to take that absence as proof that we're talking out of our collective arse, then that's also up to you. ;D

Personally, I'm glad I've largely stepped out of this thread, as it's just become another mousewheel discussion. Round in round in circles, same people, same arguments, with no chance of anybody convincing anybody else. It's all rather pointless now.

It's not like it's just Andy or Al airing grievances on the issue.

Yeah he won't believe anything. I've been told by my two mates one thing - which he immedaitely refuted and didn't believe, only for Al to find it in two actual newspapers - so he just moves onto something else he doesn't believe.
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Offline tubby

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3522 on: April 2, 2024, 03:51:19 pm »
Yeah he won't believe anything. I've been told by my two mates one thing - which he immedaitely refuted and didn't believe, only for Al to find it in two actual newspapers - so he just moves onto something else he doesn't believe.

Which national newspapers was the story in, out of interest?  Because the only link I can see is to the one paper that Liverpool fans shouldn't be using to prove anything.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3523 on: April 2, 2024, 03:56:18 pm »
From ESPN.

Of the 20 VAR errors this season, 17 have been for missed interventions, with two decisions changed incorrectly and one situation where the VAR wrongly rejected an overturn at the pitchside monitor. Last season, the 25 mistakes were made up of 18 missed interventions and seven incorrectly changed decisions.

ESPN can reveal that Premier League leaders Liverpool have been most affected in the 2023-24 campaign, with four VAR errors against them. Brighton & Hove Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers have each suffered three mistakes, with Arsenal two and eight other clubs on one each.


Surprise Surprise. The teams with managers who have been the most outspoken about PGMOL Klopp, De Zerbi and O'Neil have been shafted the most by VAR.

Yet presumably the Doku incident isn't even included.

Everton have had zero, yet their fans groups were meeting with PGMOL the other day to demand answers.
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Offline Gus 1855

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3524 on: April 2, 2024, 03:57:46 pm »
On the referees appointment thing. There are so many who are considered to be top refs that we don't like...we're bound to get one involved in some part each game.

But, Anthony Taylor for a big United vs Liverpool game is certainly an odd appointment.

Of the referees who have had 10 games or more, this is the list. We've had grumbles about 7 of them I'd say. So a very good chance we're going to get one involved in some part in every game.

Anthony Taylor
Simon Hooper
Michael Oliver
Paul Tierney
Robert Jones
Tim Robinson
John Brooks
Andy Madley
Jarred Gillett
Chris Kavanagh
Samuel Barrott
David Coote
Craig Pawson
It looks to me as if we have signed another 'average' player. I'll hold back my complete opinion until I see the lad play

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3525 on: April 2, 2024, 04:17:12 pm »
Personally, I'm glad I've largely stepped out of this thread, as it's just become another mousewheel discussion. Round in round in circles, same people, same arguments, with no chance of anybody convincing anybody else. It's all rather pointless now.

It's not like it's just Andy or Al airing grievances on the issue.

I agree. I mean, we have people having to try and convince some that a man from Manchester should not be in charge of a Liverpool v Mancs game and reasons why, then the other side trying to pick holes in it.

I mean for fucks sake I didn't think people were going to get so entrenched as to not being able to even give concessions when a manchester based ref is placed in charge of this match. It's all a bit farcical now.

Bias aside for the protection of the referee nobody from a rival area should ever be given these games as they are damned either way. Corruption, bias or incompetence aside that is something that should not be up for any debate.

Offline Fromola

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3526 on: April 2, 2024, 04:20:08 pm »
I agree. I mean, we have people having to try and convince some that a man from Manchester should not be in charge of a Liverpool v Mancs game and reasons why, then the other side trying to pick holes in it.

I mean for fucks sake I didn't think people were going to get so entrenched as to not being able to even give concessions when a manchester based ref is placed in charge of this match. It's all a bit farcical now.

Bias aside for the protection of the referee nobody from a rival area should ever be given these games as they are damned either way. Corruption, bias or incompetence aside that is something that should not be up for any debate.

Imagine the fuss if it was a Scouser in charge. Neville wouldn't shut up about it for one.
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Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3527 on: April 2, 2024, 04:29:58 pm »
Imagine the fuss if it was a Scouser in charge. Neville wouldn't shut up about it for one.

This is where I disagree with AI. The club should be speaking out and putting pressure on PGMOL. At the very least it is highlighted in the media and highlighted more each time.

For me it is easier to point this out rather than releasing the statement after the Diaz incident, mainly because you don't have to be saying it in a way of questioning the referee, but you are stating that nobody from rival areas should be given the game as there is a conflict and this can lead to questions from either side and the referee should not be having that added pressure on them. It's a precedent set in international games, if it's not a problem then why is it not allowed there?

I guess though this would be said internally then see what happens but the club should know they have had the piss taken out of them by PGMOL since the elbow on Robbo and the only way to deal with PGMOL is to air it publicly.

Offline tubby

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3528 on: April 2, 2024, 05:44:24 pm »
It has been reported by a national newspaper that Tayor's family are United season ticket holders. I am not going to name the newspaper in question but it has been reported.

I'll ask you directly as Andy missed it, but which paper was this, and what was their source?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3529 on: April 2, 2024, 06:05:01 pm »
I'll ask you directly as Andy missed it, but which paper was this, and what was their source?

I think the fact that I refused to name the newspaper speaks volumes. For me what is significant is that when comments are made about Taylor's family it is not denied but we get Manchester-based journalists doubling down on the fact that he has an Altrincham season ticket.

This is a piece by the Guardian's Man United correspondent Daniel Taylor.

This isn’t the first time Taylor allegiances have been questioned but I did speak to the Altrincham chairman, Grahame Rowley, on Friday and hopefully it might convince a few people to see the latest controversy for what it is. “Anthony has always been an Altrincham fan,” he told me. “Even now, he gets a season ticket every year to support the club, despite the fact he can’t go to all the matches. He has helped with refereeing schools at the club and he is often at the ground. People around here always ask if you’re a Red or a Blue. He’s actually a great advocate for non-League football and he should be praised not criticised.”

Instead of finding out if Taylor's family are United supporters we get a piece with the Altrincham chairman.
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Offline tubby

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3530 on: April 2, 2024, 06:08:56 pm »
I think the fact that I refused to name the newspaper speaks volumes. For me what is significant is that when comments are made about Taylor's family it is not denied but we get Manchester-based journalists doubling down on the fact that he has an Altrincham season ticket.

This is a piece by the Guardian's Man United correspondent Daniel Taylor.

This isn’t the first time Taylor allegiances have been questioned but I did speak to the Altrincham chairman, Grahame Rowley, on Friday and hopefully it might convince a few people to see the latest controversy for what it is. “Anthony has always been an Altrincham fan,” he told me. “Even now, he gets a season ticket every year to support the club, despite the fact he can’t go to all the matches. He has helped with refereeing schools at the club and he is often at the ground. People around here always ask if you’re a Red or a Blue. He’s actually a great advocate for non-League football and he should be praised not criticised.”

Instead of finding out if Taylor's family are United supporters we get a piece with the Altrincham chairman.

So the answer is The Sun, and there's no source on their side?
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Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3531 on: April 2, 2024, 06:10:13 pm »
Taylor as ref :lmao

Webb isn’t even trying to hide his hatred for us

Offline Fromola

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3532 on: April 2, 2024, 06:10:49 pm »
I think the fact that I refused to name the newspaper speaks volumes. For me what is significant is that when comments are made about Taylor's family it is not denied but we get Manchester-based journalists doubling down on the fact that he has an Altrincham season ticket.

This is a piece by the Guardian's Man United correspondent Daniel Taylor.

This isn’t the first time Taylor allegiances have been questioned but I did speak to the Altrincham chairman, Grahame Rowley, on Friday and hopefully it might convince a few people to see the latest controversy for what it is. “Anthony has always been an Altrincham fan,” he told me. “Even now, he gets a season ticket every year to support the club, despite the fact he can’t go to all the matches. He has helped with refereeing schools at the club and he is often at the ground. People around here always ask if you’re a Red or a Blue. He’s actually a great advocate for non-League football and he should be praised not criticised.”

Instead of finding out if Taylor's family are United supporters we get a piece with the Altrincham chairman.

Said it before but I went to an Altrincham home game a few years ago. There's a pub/clubhouse right next to the ground. United were playing in the 12:30. Everyone in there was going to the Altrincham game, nearly everyone in there was cheering loudly for United, to the point where I drank up and left.

People living in all these satellite towns around Manchester - they all favour City or United ultimately. Just as they do Liverpool or Everton in Bootle, Crosby or Prescot. Altrincham is very much a United town, whether they go and watch the local non league club or not.

But he's not even from Altrincham. His family are all from Manchester.
« Last Edit: April 2, 2024, 06:12:58 pm by Fromola »
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Online Eeyore

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3533 on: April 2, 2024, 06:17:57 pm »
So the answer is The Sun, and there's no source on their side?

I don't know about a source because I didn't read the article. What I did do is make it clear which paper it was but refused to name them or provide a link because I didn't want them to benefit from my post.

Strangely you have just cherry picked one line from my post and completely ignored the Manchester press's obsession with stating that Taylor is a Altrincham fan. People constantly state that he grew in a in United family, in a staunch United area and will have been subjected to anti Scouse rhetoric pretty much his whole life. Instead of addressing that we get the fact that he apparently supports Altrincham.

Do you think he would be allowed to referee United in a European final? I mean he supports Altrincham for gods sake.
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Offline Historical Fool

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3534 on: April 2, 2024, 06:24:16 pm »
I don't know about a source because I didn't read the article. What I did do is make it clear which paper it was but refused to name them or provide a link because I didn't want them to benefit from my post.

Strangely you have just cherry picked one line from my post and completely ignored the Manchester press's obsession with stating that Taylor is a Altrincham fan. People constantly state that he grew in a in United family, in a staunch United area and will have been subjected to anti Scouse rhetoric pretty much his whole life. Instead of addressing that we get the fact that he apparently supports Altrincham.

Do you think he would be allowed to referee United in a European final? I mean he supports Altrincham for gods sake.

No he would not, but it isn’t because he supports Altrincham …
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

Oh, and we should have an in's and out's topic, stickied.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3535 on: April 2, 2024, 06:31:16 pm »
No he would not, but it isn’t because he supports Altrincham …

Of course, he wouldn't because of his locality to United. In European games referees from the same country are not allowed. That should be the same in England. Manchester officials shouldn't be refereeing Manchester clubs.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3536 on: April 2, 2024, 06:35:57 pm »
Said it before but I went to an Altrincham home game a few years ago. There's a pub/clubhouse right next to the ground. United were playing in the 12:30. Everyone in there was going to the Altrincham game, nearly everyone in there was cheering loudly for United, to the point where I drank up and left.

People living in all these satellite towns around Manchester - they all favour City or United ultimately. Just as they do Liverpool or Everton in Bootle, Crosby or Prescot. Altrincham is very much a United town, whether they go and watch the local non league club or not.

But he's not even from Altrincham. His family are all from Manchester.

It works both ways. I have no affinity for any of our none League clubs but if they are playing a team from Manchester then I would want the Merseyside none League team to win. If there was a bunch of people from Liverpool and Manchester playing tiddlywinks I would want the scousers to win.

It isn't just a United-City/Liverpool thing. There is a lot of animosity between scousers and mancs especially on their side of the divide. That is something people who are not scousers don't seem to understand.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3537 on: April 2, 2024, 06:42:55 pm »
Of course, he wouldn't because of his locality to United. In European games referees from the same country are not allowed. That should be the same in England. Manchester officials shouldn't be refereeing Manchester clubs.

This would be logistically impossible as a principle and I’m sure you know that too. What does locality matter anyway since they apparently all lie about the clubs they support. Will it be ok for a Liverpool fan from India or Japan to referee Liverpool games?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3538 on: April 2, 2024, 06:49:10 pm »
Said it before but I went to an Altrincham home game a few years ago. There's a pub/clubhouse right next to the ground. United were playing in the 12:30. Everyone in there was going to the Altrincham game, nearly everyone in there was cheering loudly for United, to the point where I drank up and left.

People living in all these satellite towns around Manchester - they all favour City or United ultimately. Just as they do Liverpool or Everton in Bootle, Crosby or Prescot. Altrincham is very much a United town, whether they go and watch the local non league club or not.

But he's not even from Altrincham. His family are all from Manchester.
I'd say the overwhelming majority of fans of small, local sides also support a major team. You mentioned Crosby there, and I remember travelling to Old Trafford for a nighttime League Cup match against the Mancs. We went from Bootle on double Decker buses and half of Marine's support were on there. Some I already knew as lifelong Reds, but who also support Marine due to them being from Crosby. Ultimately, they were staunch Reds. I used to watch Marine myself, but I'm a lifelong Liverpool fan. Mind you, if I was a Premier League ref, I'd probably pretend my club was Marine.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3539 on: April 2, 2024, 06:53:17 pm »
This is where I disagree with AI. The club should be speaking out and putting pressure on PGMOL. At the very least it is highlighted in the media and highlighted more each time.

For me it is easier to point this out rather than releasing the statement after the Diaz incident, mainly because you don't have to be saying it in a way of questioning the referee, but you are stating that nobody from rival areas should be given the game as there is a conflict and this can lead to questions from either side and the referee should not be having that added pressure on them. It's a precedent set in international games, if it's not a problem then why is it not allowed there?

I guess though this would be said internally then see what happens but the club should know they have had the piss taken out of them by PGMOL since the elbow on Robbo and the only way to deal with PGMOL is to air it publicly.

Rodgers spoke about it back in 2013 when Lee Mason ultimately cost us the title, and yet nothing's changed over ten years later.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/03/liverpool-brendan-rodgers-charged-by-fa-referee-lee-mason-comments

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3540 on: April 2, 2024, 06:54:38 pm »
This would be logistically impossible as a principle and I’m sure you know that too. What does locality matter anyway since they apparently all lie about the clubs they support. Will it be ok for a Liverpool fan from India or Japan to referee Liverpool games?

Locality matters when it involves Liverpool. Mike Dean who supports Tranmere was removed as referee for the 2006 FA Cup final because living on the Wirral meant concerns were raised about whether he could be impartial.

The only reason it would be logistically difficult is because of the ridiculous proliferation of Northern referees, especially Manchester based referees. For instance, there are no Referees from London despite greater London having a population of 8m. I wonder if it is the cockney accent that puts the PGMOL off or maybe it is just the ethnic diversity of London.

Jarred Gillet is Australian but doesn't referee Liverpool or Everton games because he confessed to being a Liverpool fan. Supporting a team precludes you from officiating that team. The same thing happens if you have played for a team. The bizarre one is that you are also not allowed to officiate a team if a member of your family works for a club. It is however fine for your entire family to be a season ticket holder for a club.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3541 on: April 2, 2024, 06:57:35 pm »
I'd say the overwhelming majority of fans of small, local sides also support a major team. You mentioned Crosby there, and I remember travelling to Old Trafford for a nighttime League Cup match against the Mancs. We went from Bootle on double Decker buses and half of Marine's support were on there. Some I already knew as lifelong Reds, but who also support Marine due to them being from Crosby. Ultimately, they were staunch Reds. I used to watch Marine myself, but I'm a lifelong Liverpool fan. Mind you, if I was a Premier League ref, I'd probably pretend my club was Marine.

Which of course the football media would never buy. Not if you were anywhere near a Liverpool or Man United fixture.

For years you got all the shit about Mike Dean being from 'Merseyside', when in reality he's a die hard Tranmere fan from Heswall, who is as snobbish about Scousers as the rest of the country. He was outraged at being called a Scouser by Neville the other week. Half of the Tranmere songbook is anti-Scouse chants.
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Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3542 on: April 2, 2024, 07:00:06 pm »
Rodgers spoke about it back in 2013 when Lee Mason ultimately cost us the title, and yet nothing's changed over ten years later.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/03/liverpool-brendan-rodgers-charged-by-fa-referee-lee-mason-comments

That illustrates my point though mate, one statement every ten years isn’t going to do anything. The club have to point this out every time it happens.

The club won’t so shit though let’s face it, we have a problem a billion times bigger than this in tragedy changing and the club don’t say a fucking peep on that which is an utter disgrace, so thinking they’ll do anything on this is nothing short of delusional.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3543 on: April 2, 2024, 07:00:48 pm »
Which of course the football media would never buy. Not if you were anywhere near a Liverpool or Man United fixture.

For years you got all the shit about Mike Dean being from 'Merseyside', when in reality he's a die hard Tranmere fan from Heswall, who is as snobbish about Scousers as the rest of the country. He was outraged at being called a Scouser by Neville the other week. Half of the Tranmere songbook is anti-Scouse chants.

So basically you believe Dean being a Tranmere fan but not Taylor is an Altrincham fan despite their chairmain saying he has a season ticket. Seems bias on your behalf no?

Refs seem utter losers, I can imagine not many of them actually liking football. This is one of the biggest comments I hear from Klopp, they have never played football so they don't actually understand it or the rules.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3544 on: April 2, 2024, 07:04:18 pm »
Rodgers spoke about it back in 2013 when Lee Mason ultimately cost us the title, and yet nothing's changed over ten years later.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/03/liverpool-brendan-rodgers-charged-by-fa-referee-lee-mason-comments

This was the decision in that game.



The linesman simply couldn't have a better view. He even had the lines on the grass to help.

This is the same Lee Mason who couldn't keep up with play. So they made him a permanent VAR. He 'forgot' to draw the offside lines when Arsenal were competing with City for the title. He left by mutual consent for being incredibly incompetent and was then given a coaching role with the PGMOL months later. 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3545 on: April 2, 2024, 07:07:15 pm »
So basically you believe Dean being a Tranmere fan but not Taylor is an Altrincham fan despite their chairmain saying he has a season ticket. Seems bias on your behalf no?

Refs seem utter losers, I can imagine not many of them actually liking football. This is one of the biggest comments I hear from Klopp, they have never played football so they don't actually understand it or the rules.



Believe Mike Dean?  ;D ;D
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3546 on: April 2, 2024, 07:10:27 pm »
Finding some middle ground here I do think having a Manchester based referee taking a united Liverpool game isn't a good look and if I was involved at the club I would be asking questions about it. Maybe they have. I'd want to be fully convinced of his allegiances. It's not that I think he'd be incapable of refereeing it fairly, it just opens him and the FA up to unnecessary questions over impartiality. I wouldn't agree with a Merseyside ref getting it either.

I suppose the issue there is the talent pool, or lack of. One of Al's points I agree with is you'd like to see a bit more diversity just to avoid instances like these. The greater Manchester area is obviously one of the major footballing hotbeds of the country so you'd expect a proportion of refs from there. That being said, it has to be difficult to keep everyone happy once you go down that road. Locality doesn't always mean a club you support is set in stone, and how much digging can the FA do on a potential ref when they tell them who their club is? There has to be an element of trust in their professionalism there.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3547 on: April 2, 2024, 07:11:45 pm »
Yorky, let's face it - we know that unless someone hands you a smoking gun dossier of proof then nothing will convince you.

That's just a fancy word for evidence. And, yes, that's what I'm asking for. Just corroborating evidence. It's not an extravagant demand.

Getting the conspiracists to offer any proof at all is very difficult but Andy from Allerton has today put two proofs forward. The first involves Anthony Taylor who he says is a Manchester United supporter with a family that all have season tickets at Old Trafford. The evidence for this is that  'a couple of mates told me it was true'. He thinks I'm a real bastard for taking this with a pinch of salt. He then refers me to Eeyore who has cited the Sun newspaper as evidence for the claim. That's a pretty extraordinary thing for anyone to do, especially a Liverpool supporter. Aside from questions of politics and morality the Sun newspaper has a very poor record at telling the truth. We all know that, or should know that. And my guess is that Andy's two mates must have read the Sun themselves when they reported its findings to Andy. Hence the circularity of the claim. Fucking pitiful really.

Eeyore, to give him credit, seems embarrassed that he's citing the Sun as evidence to back his claims and therefore hasn't actually used the word 'Sun'. Bully for him. But now he's pivoting and saying that the real evidence that Taylor is a Man United fan is that he claims to be an Altrincham fan and that he has a season ticket there. The logic here is just plain weird! When "Manchester based journalists" (meaning the Guardian - a paper he clearly distrusts unlike the Sun) report that Taylor is indeed an Altrincham supporter, Eeyore simply adds that here is the 'smoking gun' that he must really be a Man United fan. Come on guys. This is off the scale weirdness! It certainly isn't proof!

The second proof offered by Andy is about Paul Tierney. He tells us that Tierney is a Man United supporter and that there's a photograph of him in the Stretford End. It's actually the Scoreboard End. The young lad (let's call him 'Tierney') is staring at Steven Gerrard who is kissing the camera. We all know the glorious day. So is it really Tierney? Andy has so far avoided the question, despite it being asked several times. It's his key piece of 'proof' as well. Yet he refuses so far to validate it. I wonder why? Because he really knows it's bullshit?

The kid in the picture may, I suppose, at a stretch, be Tierney. But the chances are it isn't. There's a passing resemblance I suppose. But on that basis every time we score a goal at Gladwys Street End there is Michael Jackson, Jeremy Corbyn, Queen Victoria, Beyonce, George Washington and David Bowie flicking V's at whichever Red is gallivanting away in euphoric celebration.

« Last Edit: April 2, 2024, 07:14:17 pm by Yorkykopite »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3548 on: April 2, 2024, 07:14:04 pm »
Finding some middle ground here I do think having a Manchester based referee taking a united Liverpool game isn't a good look and if I was involved at the club I would be asking questions about it. Maybe they have. I'd want to be fully convinced of his allegiances. It's not that I think he'd be incapable of refereeing it fairly, it just opens him and the FA up to unnecessary questions over impartiality. I wouldn't agree with a Merseyside ref getting it either.

I suppose the issue there is the talent pool, or lack of. One of Al's points I agree with is you'd like to see a bit more diversity just to avoid instances like these. The greater Manchester area is obviously one of the major footballing hotbeds of the country so you'd expect a proportion of refs from there. That being said, it has to be difficult to keep everyone happy once you go down that road. Locality doesn't always mean a club you support is set in stone, and how much digging can the FA do on a potential ref when they tell them who their club is? There has to be an element of trust in their professionalism there.

You'd say bring in overseas refs but they are horrific!

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3549 on: April 2, 2024, 07:16:32 pm »
That's just a fancy word for evidence. And, yes, that's what I'm asking for. Just corroborating evidence. It's not an extravagant demand.

Getting the conspiracists to offer any proof at all is very difficult but Andy from Allerton has today put two proofs forward. The first involves Anthony Taylor who he says is a Manchester United supporter with a family that all have season tickets at Old Trafford. The evidence for this is that  'a couple of mates told me it was true'. He thinks I'm a real bastard for taking this with a pinch of salt. He then refers me to Eeyore who has cited the Sun newspaper as evidence for the claim. That's a pretty extraordinary thing for anyone to do, especially a Liverpool supporter. Aside from questions of politics and morality the Sun newspaper has a very poor record at telling the truth. We all know that, or should know that. And my guess is that Andy's two mates must have read the Sun themselves when they reported its findings to Andy. Hence the circularity of the claim. Fucking pitiful really.

Eeyore, to give him credit, seems embarrassed that he's citing the Sun as evidence to back his claims and therefore hasn't actually used the word 'Sun'. Bully for him. But now he's pivoting and saying that the real evidence that Taylor is a Man United fan is that he claims to be an Altrincham fan and that he has a season ticket there. The logic here is just plain weird! When "Manchester based journalists" (meaning the Guardian - a paper he clearly distrusts unlike the Sun) report that Taylor is indeed an Altrincham supporter, Eeyore simply adds that here is the 'smoking gun' that he must really be a Man United fan. Come on guys. This is off the scale weirdness! It certainly isn't proof!

The second proof offered by Andy is about Paul Tierney. He tells us that Tierney is a Man United supporter and that there's a photograph of him in the Stretford End. It's actually the Scoreboard End. The young lad (let's call him 'Tierney') is staring at Steven Gerrard who is kissing the camera. We all know the glorious day. So is it really Tierney? Andy has so far avoided the question, despite it being asked several times. It's his key piece of 'proof' as well. Yet he refuses so far to validate it. I wonder why? Because he really knows it's bullshit?

The kid in the picture may, I suppose, at a stretch, be Tierney. But the chances are it isn't. There's a passing resemblance I suppose. But on that basis every time we score a goal at Gladwys Street End there is Michael Jackson, Jeremy Corbyn, Queen Victoria, Beyonce, George Washington and David Bowie flicking V's at whichever Red is gallivanted away in euphoric celebration.

But you know there is only circumstantial evidence. A lot of it, but only circumstantial.

I've not been following this discussion for awhile. I know nothing about photos or what the like. But you seem to dismiss everything as just a statistical fluke that is par for the course. As I see it, out of the current main six clubs, Liverpool are clearly the worst treated - not only when playing other top six clubs, but also against the lower league clubs.

If you're hoping for something more concrete then you're in for a long wait, so I don't really understand why you are still kicking around in this thread. If you're expecting to get the likes of Al or Andy to admit they're wrong, then I have a football stadium to sell you. ;D

Edit: But it's not just Andy. Rob has chimed in as well. Do you disagree with him? I noticed you didn't engage with his point, which was similar to Andy's.
« Last Edit: April 2, 2024, 07:18:45 pm by Red Beret »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3550 on: April 2, 2024, 07:16:39 pm »
The voices in my head, they're all out to get me.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3551 on: April 2, 2024, 07:21:17 pm »
Finding some middle ground here I do think having a Manchester based referee taking a united Liverpool game isn't a good look and if I was involved at the club I would be asking questions about it. Maybe they have. I'd want to be fully convinced of his allegiances. It's not that I think he'd be incapable of refereeing it fairly, it just opens him and the FA up to unnecessary questions over impartiality. I wouldn't agree with a Merseyside ref getting it either.

Rodgers questioned it in an entirely reasonable way and was fined and warned about his future conduct. The club faced a backlash when they merely asked for the audio from the Diaz incident. When Robertson was elbowed by Hatzkadikas Paul Hayward stated that the linesman has to be defended at all costs. That is what you are up against.
I suppose the issue there is the talent pool, or lack of. One of Al's points I agree with is you'd like to see a bit more diversity just to avoid instances like these. The greater Manchester area is obviously one of the major footballing hotbeds of the country so you'd expect a proportion of refs from there. That being said, it has to be difficult to keep everyone happy once you go down that road. Locality doesn't always mean a club you support is set in stone, and how much digging can the FA do on a potential ref when they tell them who their club is? There has to be an element of trust in their professionalism there.

It is a billion-pound industry though. For me there is no excuse not to have a large enough talent pool to facilitate neutral referees. Even if you can't do that immediately then give referees an equal number of games and do not exacerbate the problem by having the likes of Tierney doing a third of our League games. 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3552 on: April 2, 2024, 07:23:37 pm »
But you know there is only circumstantial evidence. A lot of it, but only circumstantial.

I've not been following this discussion for awhile. I know nothing about photos or what the like. But you seem to dismiss everything as just a statistical fluke that is par for the course. As I see it, out of the current main six clubs, Liverpool are clearly the worst treated - not only when playing other top six clubs, but also against the lower league clubs.

If you're hoping for something more concrete then you're in for a long wait, so I don't really understand why you are still kicking around in this thread. If you're expecting to get the likes of Al or Andy to admit their wrong, then I have a football stadium to sell you. ;D

Yes, that's true. But I'm not hoping to convince them!

The circumstantial evidence you refer to is really nothing more than the same evidence that I, and Tubby, and Chopper, and Fitzy and several other good 'Reds' ALSO refer to. We just interpret it differently. Hence the call for corroborating evidence. That's not unreasonable.

And I haven't referred to a "statistical fluke" when trying to understand the great "outlier" that Eeyore always reverts to (fouls on Mo Salah). On the contrary I've advanced two possible explanations to account for it.

Eeyore rather let the cat out of the bag the other day when he claimed that Lance Armstrong (a constant reference point for him) was investigated because his numbers were so amazing. But that's NOT the reason he was investigated. He was investigated because people - including teammates - began to come forward with evidence that he was taking drugs.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3553 on: April 2, 2024, 07:31:49 pm »
That's just a fancy word for evidence. And, yes, that's what I'm asking for. Just corroborating evidence. It's not an extravagant demand.

Getting the conspiracists to offer any proof at all is very difficult but Andy from Allerton has today put two proofs forward. The first involves Anthony Taylor who he says is a Manchester United supporter with a family that all have season tickets at Old Trafford. The evidence for this is that  'a couple of mates told me it was true'. He thinks I'm a real bastard for taking this with a pinch of salt. He then refers me to Eeyore who has cited the Sun newspaper as evidence for the claim. That's a pretty extraordinary thing for anyone to do, especially a Liverpool supporter. Aside from questions of politics and morality the Sun newspaper has a very poor record at telling the truth. We all know that, or should know that. And my guess is that Andy's two mates must have read the Sun themselves when they reported its findings to Andy. Hence the circularity of the claim. Fucking pitiful really.

Eeyore, to give him credit, seems embarrassed that he's citing the Sun as evidence to back his claims and therefore hasn't actually used the word 'Sun'. Bully for him. But now he's pivoting and saying that the real evidence that Taylor is a Man United fan is that he claims to be an Altrincham fan and that he has a season ticket there. The logic here is just plain weird! When "Manchester based journalists" (meaning the Guardian - a paper he clearly distrusts unlike the Sun) report that Taylor is indeed an Altrincham supporter, Eeyore simply adds that here is the 'smoking gun' that he must really be a Man United fan. Come on guys. This is off the scale weirdness! It certainly isn't proof!

The second proof offered by Andy is about Paul Tierney. He tells us that Tierney is a Man United supporter and that there's a photograph of him in the Stretford End. It's actually the Scoreboard End. The young lad (let's call him 'Tierney') is staring at Steven Gerrard who is kissing the camera. We all know the glorious day. So is it really Tierney? Andy has so far avoided the question, despite it being asked several times. It's his key piece of 'proof' as well. Yet he refuses so far to validate it. I wonder why? Because he really knows it's bullshit?

The kid in the picture may, I suppose, at a stretch, be Tierney. But the chances are it isn't. There's a passing resemblance I suppose. But on that basis every time we score a goal at Gladwys Street End there is Michael Jackson, Jeremy Corbyn, Queen Victoria, Beyonce, George Washington and David Bowie flicking V's at whichever Red is gallivanting away in euphoric celebration.



Mr conspiracy Strawman strikes again.

The fucking irony is that only person twisting things and trying to link them into a conspiracy is you mate. You are like clockwork. You know full well that you have absolutely zero chance of actually addressing the relevant point. Taylor a manc shouldn't be officiating a Man United v Liverpool game.

So you weave an outlandish conspiracy theory and then pretend it in any way reflects what people are saying. Just so you can ignore the things you cannot argue against. We all know what comes next. If Taylor has a shocker you will be on here defending his impartiality and stating hie is just incompetent.
 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3554 on: April 2, 2024, 07:39:49 pm »
Yes, that's true. But I'm not hoping to convince them!

The circumstantial evidence you refer to is really nothing more than the same evidence that I, and Tubby, and Chopper, and Fitzy and several other good 'Reds' ALSO refer to. We just interpret it differently. Hence the call for corroborating evidence. That's not unreasonable.

And I haven't referred to a "statistical fluke" when trying to understand the great "outlier" that Eeyore always reverts to (fouls on Mo Salah). On the contrary I've advanced two possible explanations to account for it.

Eeyore rather let the cat out of the bag the other day when he claimed that Lance Armstrong (a constant reference point for him) was investigated because his numbers were so amazing. But that's NOT the reason he was investigated. He was investigated because people - including teammates - began to come forward with evidence that he was taking drugs.

Then what are you hoping for? There is no corroborating evidence - we've already ascertained that.

Yes, it's the classic conspiracy trope that a lack of hard evidence to back up the claim doesn't disprove the claim - but it depends on what you're claiming. As I said, I've not been following this thread for a while - I got bored with the circular arguments, so said my piece and left. True corruption would amount to a match fixing scandal that would blow Italy out of the water. But there is definitely a bias, a prejudice, in play here.

If you don't think there is enough solid evidence to justify that claim, then again, I don't know why you're still in here. You're not going to get it, no matter how many times you ask for it.

Whilst it's not unreasonable to want corroborating evidence, I do think it's unreasonable to keep banging on about it when you know perfectly well there's none to be had. It just looks like you're on a wind up for your own personal amusement at this point.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3555 on: April 2, 2024, 07:40:06 pm »
Mr conspiracy Strawman strikes again.

The fucking irony is that only person twisting things and trying to link them into a conspiracy is you mate. You are like clockwork. You know full well that you have absolutely zero chance of actually addressing the relevant point. Taylor a manc shouldn't be officiating a Man United v Liverpool game.

So you weave an outlandish conspiracy theory and then pretend it in any way reflects what people are saying. Just so you can ignore the things you cannot argue against. We all know what comes next. If Taylor has a shocker you will be on here defending his impartiality and stating hie is just incompetent.
 

It's your "outlandish conspiracy" Eeyore. And the moment anyone engages you with some incisive questions you shout "straw man". You're a joke.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3556 on: April 2, 2024, 07:48:58 pm »

Eeyore rather let the cat out of the bag the other day when he claimed that Lance Armstrong (a constant reference point for him) was investigated because his numbers were so amazing. But that's NOT the reason he was investigated. He was investigated because people - including teammates - began to come forward with evidence that he was taking drugs.

Someone called you specious the other day.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/jan/28/lance-armstrong-sundaytimes

The journalist who brought down Armstrong David Walsh began investigating him in 1999. His teammate came forward 11 years later.

Ahead of the 2010 Tour de France, Armstrong said it would be his last race. Around this time, his former U.S. teammate Floyd Landis sent emails to cycling officials detailing his use of performance-enhancing drugs while racing for the U.S. Postal Service team. Landis also accused Armstrong and other teammates of doing the same.

From Walsh himself. Walsh, who had already had doubts about Armstrong's astonishing post-cancer performances, noted how Armstrong treated Bassons. He pulled him up during one of the Tour stages and told him he had no right to be a professional cyclist and what he was writing was bad for cycling.

"If Armstrong was anti-doping, Christophe Bassons would have been his friend not his enemy," said Walsh. "Why bully him?" It confirmed his suspicion that Armstrong, who went on to win that 1999 Tour, was a drug-taker.

Walsh's investigation that started in 1999 had fuck all to do with Landis confessing 11 years later.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3557 on: April 2, 2024, 07:50:56 pm »
It's your "outlandish conspiracy" Eeyore. And the moment anyone engages you with some incisive questions you shout "straw man". You're a joke.

No it isn't mate.

Please answer the Armstrong post.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3558 on: April 2, 2024, 08:19:20 pm »
I don't know about a source because I didn't read the article. What I did do is make it clear which paper it was but refused to name them or provide a link because I didn't want them to benefit from my post.

Strangely you have just cherry picked one line from my post and completely ignored the Manchester press's obsession with stating that Taylor is a Altrincham fan. People constantly state that he grew in a in United family, in a staunch United area and will have been subjected to anti Scouse rhetoric pretty much his whole life. Instead of addressing that we get the fact that he apparently supports Altrincham.

Do you think he would be allowed to referee United in a European final? I mean he supports Altrincham for gods sake.

No, Al, you don't get to misdirect and goalpost shift your way out of this one.

Without even clicking on the link to The Sun (because I'm not giving them clicks either), you can see from the Google search that their source for the story is Man City fans.  It's not even a proper 'report', from what I can tell from the Google snippet.

You have used a nothing story in The Sun, with a source of Man City fans, to try and win an argument on a Liverpool forum.  I would like you know how you think that is in any way acceptable?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3559 on: April 2, 2024, 08:27:51 pm »
Not sure that’s the right thing to be trying to point score over