Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The referee selection in this league is incompetent beyond words

Taylor has a history of letting us get the shit kicked out of us by Manchester United.

I won't be surprised if he allows them to boot us all over the park again.

I'm sure there is a good reason why a Manchester United supporting referee is again allowed to ref us v Manchester United though.

I'm not even going to bother watching it - not in the mood to see our players injured for the run-in, nor to listen to a load of gobshites laughing about people dying and then that to be glossed over and ignored by the media - who are every much as bad as those chanting shit if they aren't going to pull them up over it.

[wah00ey]

Taylor has a history of letting us get the shit kicked out of us by Manchester United.

I won't be surprised if he allows them to boot us all over the park again.

I'm sure there is a good reason why a Manchester United supporting referee is again allowed to ref us v Manchester United though.

I'm not even going to bother watching it - not in the mood to see our players injured for the run-in, nor to listen to a load of gobshites laughing about people dying and then that to be glossed over and ignored by the media - who are every much as bad as those chanting shit if they aren't going to pull them up over it.

I expect them to kick lumps out of us and then he sends one of ours off after 20 or so at the first sign of any reaction to Utd's play.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Even my 'level headed' mates and family - including lads and lasses that have been going for more half a decade are questioning the appointment of Taylor here.

The silence from the media is deafening.

[Peabee]

I would not agree, but I would agree if you replaced the word 'corruption' with 'bias'. The term corruption has been used on here so often to try and distract and ridicule the main argument, and it is still ongoing.

Many on either side of the debate are open to what is at play, I think, myself included, many are not anywhere near the thought of full on systemic corruption, but certainly open to the idea it does occur in some form, as in any setting in life, you would have to be from a different planet or mid brain transplant to not at least entertain the thought.

However to think that the idea, even with no evidence what-so-ever, that refs are infallible to any bias and it is all just incompetence, that they are so professional that nothing but mistakes are at play is on another level, the same level I would add in my view of people believing it is masterminded daily corruption, solely against us and from the top down.

People rightly get wound up though in my opinion when you have some posters that not only state no bias is at all possible, but then tell us all major decisions such as Diaz, Mcalister pen, etc are all correct or would 'even themselves out'. These are either not very bright, don't know the rules, or on a bit of a wind up, and for the most part I don't believe the former two points to be true.

This is what the debate has descended to though, as no matter what, as people joked above, some will never accept the idea any bias is at play, and instead distract with victimisation and dragging 'corruption' fully into play when it is clear to most bias, not just against Liverpool, will of course be rife amongst people who support such a tribal game.

Yeah, even just the bias of one man, e.g. the man in charge of the PGMOL, would probably be enough to explain most of the issues such as referee selection. Given there's so many conspiracy theories floating about, I agree it's better to be anti-conspiracy.

It's a leap to say Howard Webb has been nobbled or seduced by money, but even his unconscious bias could be influencing his role. Especially given there seems to be no real accountability. Until there is accountability, we would never find out about any corruption anyway, so that would be a good start.

[Eeyore]

So Anthony Taylor who grew up in an environment in which both at home and at school there was a hatred of scousers is going to turn up at Old Trafford hear all the anti Liverpool chanting, the poverty chanting and chants about Hillsborough and remain impartial.

He isn't going to think imagine the stick I will get day in day out of these knuckle draggers. Imagine what it will be like dropping the kids of at achool, going the shops or going the pub if I give a controversial decision in Liverpool’s favour.

He shouldn't be put in that position. When Mike Dean who doesn't support either Liverpool or Everton was selected for the 2006 Cup final he was pulled because they didn't want a referee from the same locality as one of the teams.

This was the statement.  "We have complete faith in Mike Dean's refereeing ability, integrity and impartiality. However, given the huge interest in all aspects of the FA Cup final, the fact that he is from the Wirral might lead to comment and debate which would place him under undue additional pressure.

"The decision has been taken with the best interests of Mike Dean and the competition in mind. At the age of 37, Mike Dean is still young enough to referee a future FA Cup final."

So can someone please explain the difference.?

[Cafe De Paris]

Paul Gorst
Anthony Taylor will take charge of Liverpool's trip to Manchester United on Sunday. VAR is John Brooks.

They are really taking the piss now aren't they?

Unreal. Manc ref for a game against the mancs.

[Andy82lfc]

Even my 'level headed' mates and family - including lads and lasses that have been going for more half a decade are questioning the appointment of Taylor here.

The silence from the media is deafening.

You could say the same for our club also.

Whether people are full out conspiracists, or believing that the refs club are clean as a hound's tooth, it is asking for trouble and incredibly unprofessional at best to be appointing referee's from rival towns and families for such a derby match. That is something both sides can surely agree on and one that the club should be pointing out.

We wouldn't accept a Scottish ref being in charge of an England v Scotland final, so why on earth have we got to the stage where this is so acceptable? In my view it is because everybody stays silent, so why wouldn't they carry on doing whatever they want, which was proven in them accepting money from Abu Dhabi. Farcical.

[nico 8]

It started from the very first game - that handball with his raised hand was, again, obvious and, again, VAR and the Mancunian Referee didn't want to give it.

I believe that VAR described this as his hand being in a 'natural position'

Totally agree.
The interpretation of the rule was extended at that point, in effect changing the rule. They created a rod for they own back which denied Man Utd a clear penalty the following week. These handball incidents are usually blown up without exception in Europe especially since the introduction of VAR. PMGOL have taken officiating Liverpool to another level this season appearing to be a lot more brazen with it. You just have to look at the red cards dished out in the first part of the season. I haven't done the exercise but wonder if we have received more fouls against us, red and yellow cards this season as opposed to previous seasons.
I do worry for Sunday's game as our record with Taylor at the helm  and in particular Brooks as VAR. Public opinion after the city / Arsenal game is that Arteta pulled off a master stroke. Taylor, in my opinion, affected the outcome of the game by his failure to dish out yellow cards which would have and has been ordinarily dished out for similar / same offences in game throughout the season. This gave licence to the Arsenal players to commit such fouls with impunity. If refs Sunday's game in the same way, I anticipate a long and frustrating afternoon.
Hopefully we play so well thereby negating any possible negative influence.

[Antonio Chigurh]

Unreal. Manc ref for a game against the mancs.

He reffed the game a few years ago when we won 5-0

[Peabee]

He reffed the game a few years ago when we won 5-0

Makes no odds. We could beat them 7-0 on Sunday and I'd still say it was the wrong decision to have him as the referee.

[DelTrotter]

He reffed the game a few years ago when we won 5-0

Yep and let about 8 horror challenges go including Ronaldo kicking Jones, Fernandes stamping on Jones, Maguire hauling down Jota when through on goal etc before finally sending one off for doing Naby and even then incredibly he still had to be called over to the monitor as he'd first given a yellow for Pogba trying to end Naby's career.

Then instead of going for 10 goals which were easily available we had to stop playing as they were so out of control.

[Peabee]

You could say the same for our club also.

Whether people are full out conspiracists, or believing that the refs club are clean as a hound's tooth, it is asking for trouble and incredibly unprofessional at best to be appointing referee's from rival towns and families for such a derby match. That is something both sides can surely agree on and one that the club should be pointing out.

We wouldn't accept a Scottish ref being in charge of an England v Scotland final, so why on earth have we got to the stage where this is so acceptable? In my view it is because everybody stays silent, so why wouldn't they carry on doing whatever they want, which was proven in them accepting money from Abu Dhabi. Farcical.

They'd be chastised or even fined for "assertions with regards to the integrity and professionalism of the match official" or something like that.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

He reffed the game a few years ago when we won 5-0

Yeah that was the game that they were kicking shite out of us and we actually had to rein it in to avoid injuries.

Absolute shithouse cheating performance from the Manc c*nt.

[Draex]

The whole Taylor appointment to me isn't corruption, it's weak narcissistic little men going against what would be a rational choice to show they are in charge and will do what they want and that for me is the problem, they are power hungry arrogant c*nts without any independant body keeping them in check.. Likewise VAR is the same little cartel of pricks, total reform is the only way. Adding king narcissist Webb has made it twice as bad.

[Tokyoite]

What a fucking joke. Pardon me if I believe the league is corrupt..

[Andy82lfc]

They'd be chastised or even fined for "assertions with regards to the integrity and professionalism of the match official" or something like that.

I get that but the club made a statement after the Diaz fiasco, which indirectly or not called them out in at least being incompetent. Even that was called into question by rat boy and the like, any statement will be called into question.

I don't think a statement saying we feel it is putting referees under more pressure when haded games from their direct area, especially in a such a derby game, is unwarranted. I mean it's that or just allowing it to continue anyway.

[Eeyore]

You could say the same for our club also.

Whether people are full out conspiracists, or believing that the refs club are clean as a hound's tooth, it is asking for trouble and incredibly unprofessional at best to be appointing referee's from rival towns and families for such a derby match. That is something both sides can surely agree on and one that the club should be pointing out.

We wouldn't accept a Scottish ref being in charge of an England v Scotland final, so why on earth have we got to the stage where this is so acceptable? In my view it is because everybody stays silent, so why wouldn't they carry on doing whatever they want, which was proven in them accepting money from Abu Dhabi. Farcical.

The issue is that the PGMOL is in effect an autocratic dictatorship. Webb and his cronies have absolute power. Just like a dictatorship they react to any criticism by closing ranks and seeking retribution against anyone who dares to question their integrity.

If Liverpool complained and Taylor was removed from the game there would be a shit storm of a media backlash. It would be us trying to cheat. It would be LiVARpool selecting its own officials. I mean it was fine when Ferguson did it. Now it would be Herr Klopp questioning the integrity of the English game. I mean look at the reaction to Klopp saying Tierney doesn't like us or him reacting to Silva launching Salah to the ground. Klopp was to blame for Sunday league officials getting assaulted or abused.

If you don't believe me look at the media reaction to Hatzkidaikis assaulting Robertson on national TV. Paul Hayward stated that the linesman must be protected at all costs. Martin Samuel thought Hatzidakis should have put the boot in as well as elbowing. Liverpool complain about Taylor and we kiss goodbye to any chance of winning the League.

The PGMOL would close ranks and fuck us over and the media and the majority of the Country would be willing them on. You would get the City shills stating that it is unfair City facing charges when LivVARpool were attempting to fix matches in plain sight.

It is a battle we simply couldn't win.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Taylor has a history of letting us get the shit kicked out of us by Manchester United.

I won't be surprised if he allows them to boot us all over the park again.

I'm sure there is a good reason why a Manchester United supporting referee is again allowed to ref us v Manchester United though.

I'm not even going to bother watching it - not in the mood to see our players injured for the run-in, nor to listen to a load of gobshites laughing about people dying and then that to be glossed over and ignored by the media - who are every much as bad as those chanting shit if they aren't going to pull them up over it.

Said it after the FA Cup game but enough is enough. Going for the title or not if there is that level of chanting vile shit again by their "fanbase" i'd fully support Klopp taking the players off the field of play and refusing to continue with the match until it stops. If it doesn't stop or the offenders aren't removed forfeit the game.

[Timbo's Goals]

I love the club as much as you do. I think I've loved it almost as long as you have. I feel the pain of dropped points the same as you. I would even add in another atrocious refereeing decision that deprived us of a likely three points ie Luke Shaw's inability to control the ball with his foot in the dying moments of our game at Anfield. He used his left hand instead. But I'm not crass enough to say that because you haven't mentioned this incident you don't like Liverpool as much as I do.

You say I - and others - have been glib in this thread. You clearly haven't read it, and I suspect the bits you have read have been read with one eye closed ("earnest posts!!). I've written about all three of these incidents in detail, and with clarity and patience. I've supplied reasons why I think we are suffering from incompetence not systematic bias against us. So have Fitzy, Alonso and many others. What we tend to get back - to coin a phrase - is glibness, sarcasm and accusations of loving PGMOL, being Tories (yes!), being WUMs, and now - from you of all people - ]being told we don't really care for Liverpool at all. Madness.

I never said that Yorky. I said I don't know how the likes of yourself feel but I also said too that maybe the likes of yourself don't feel this as deeply as the likes of those of us who without any shadow of a doubt do feel the anguish of this incredibly deeply because we don't believe that incompetence or human error is remotely near enough to explaining why and how all three crystal clear crucial possibly season defining incidents were ruled in favour of our opponents on the day. I say maybe because although I cannot actually know what you feel, at the same time I cannot in my own limited mind comprehend how anyone can feel it as deeply as I am feeling it and yet at the same time still steadfastly reject any notion that the officials for these episodes did not simply make errors but instead simply chose not to favour the team that they so manifestly should have ruled in favour of when all the evidence in front of them proved the opposite to be the case.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I never said that Yorky. I said I don't know how the likes of yourself feel but I also said too that maybe the likes of yourself don't feel this as deeply as the likes of those of us who without any shadow of a doubt do feel the anguish of this incredibly deeply because we don't believe that incompetence or human error is remotely near enough to explaining why and how all three crystal clear crucial possibly season defining incidents were ruled in favour of our opponents on the day. I say maybe because although I cannot actually know what you feel, at the same time I cannot in my own limited mind comprehend how anyone can feel it as deeply as I am feeling it and yet at the same time still steadfastly reject any notion that the officials for these episodes did not simply make errors but instead simply chose not to favour the team that they so manifestly should have ruled in favour of when all the evidence in front of them proved the opposite to be the case.

It's not helped by 'something' happening every single week.

We have Manchester United's Antony Taylor at Anfield on Thursday as the fourth official. We have Stuart Atwell 'who didn't see' that one player booted another in the chest in the area refereeing Thursdays game. Then we have Antony Taylor again on Sunday vs. his hometown club with John Fucking Brooks as VAR.

If PGMOL aren't trolling and just taking the piss then what the fuck ARE they doing?

They have 27 officials they can use, but use the same Manc c*nts against us pretty much every fucking week.

[Timbo's Goals]

But the glib dismissals and piss taking of those you disagree with is perfectly fine, I assume?

As far as I recall I don't think I've glibly dismissed anyone or taken the piss. I have said numerous time that I totally disagree with those who dismiss the three crucial possibly season defining incidents of Diaz, Odegaard and Doku as mere human error and that I cannot understand why they would think that it was mere incompetence or human error.

If I have taken the piss then please accept my humblest apologies Tubby lad. 

[Ski]

ok, so I think we all get that the club saying anything about appointments of refs for our games would simply be misconstrued and twisted negatively by the media but we (the supporters) have a voice too.

what socials do PGMOL and the PL have? I'm not on X (Twitter) or other social media so don't know but whatever social media they have - if thousands of us started at least questioning why their stance has changed on appointing refs with connections to certain clubs and/or regions and are now happy to appoint to ref such games and how it's no longer putting them under "unnecessary undue pressure" they would have to take notice...........and maybe even act?

if thousands of us are using their socials to bring this to the attention of the masses it would get a lot more attention, no?

after all, isn't Howard Webb all about transparency? so he/they should have no problem answering and addressing our points.

[Timbo's Goals]

It's difficult to start counting points for decisions that have gone against us because;
a) we have missed penalties
No guarantee we convert the Man City penalty

b) goals change games
Had we scored against Spurs there is nothing to say they don't take more risks earlier in the game
When Arsenal play basketball in our area we score a minute player. If we have a penalty a minute earlier is the game going to change that much?

Regardless, it still would have been good to get those decisions.

Don't recall seeing anyone saying the points were cast in stone Spider. All folks are saying is that the very real possibility of getting those precious points should have been there. Yet we were denied that possibility because the officials in what has now transpired - following the Doku incident - to be three crucial possibly season defining incidents, simply didn't want that to be the case.

[Draex]

The issue is that the PGMOL is in effect an autocratic dictatorship. Webb and his cronies have absolute power. Just like a dictatorship they react to any criticism by closing ranks and seeking retribution against anyone who dares to question their integrity.

If Liverpool complained and Taylor was removed from the game there would be a shit storm of a media backlash. It would be us trying to cheat. It would be LiVARpool selecting its own officials. I mean it was fine when Ferguson did it. Now it would be Herr Klopp questioning the integrity of the English game. I mean look at the reaction to Klopp saying Tierney doesn't like us or him reacting to Silva launching Salah to the ground. Klopp was to blame for Sunday league officials getting assaulted or abused.

If you don't believe me look at the media reaction to Hatzkidaikis assaulting Robertson on national TV. Paul Hayward stated that the linesman must be protected at all costs. Martin Samuel thought Hatzidakis should have put the boot in as well as elbowing. Liverpool complain about Taylor and we kiss goodbye to any chance of winning the League.

The PGMOL would close ranks and fuck us over and the media and the majority of the Country would be willing them on. You would get the City shills stating that it is unfair City facing charges when LivVARpool were attempting to fix matches in plain sight.

It is a battle we simply couldn't win.

This is true, but it's not corruption, nor about where refs are from. The PMGOL are answerable to no-one and if any club spoke up on their own it would get worse.

English football had their chance in the aftermath of the Spurs failings, but petty tribalism got in the way. The managers now bleating about the poor quality of refs like Kompany and Postecoglou were the same ones saying how people make mistakes back then and we should move on.

The PMGOL is unfit for purpose.

[Eeyore]

The whole Taylor appointment to me isn't corruption, it's weak narcissistic little men going against what would be a rational choice to show they are in charge and will do what they want and that for me is the problem, they are power hungry arrogant c*nts without any independant body keeping them in check.. Likewise VAR is the same little cartel of pricks, total reform is the only way. Adding king narcissist Webb has made it twice as bad.

The thing is mate you have perfectly described corrupt practices but then said you don't believe it is corruption.

[Timbo's Goals]

It's not helped by 'something' happening every single week.

We have Manchester United's Antony Taylor at Anfield on Thursday as the fourth official. We have Stuart Atwell 'who didn't see' that one player booted another in the chest in the area refereeing Thursdays game. Then we have Antony Taylor again on Sunday vs. his hometown club with John Fucking Brooks as VAR.

If PGMOL aren't trolling and just taking the piss then what the fuck ARE they doing?

They have 27 officials they can use, but use the same Manc c*nts against us pretty much every fucking week.

Andy. I have no fucking words mate. It's staggering.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is true, but it's not corruption, nor about where refs are from. The PMGOL are answerable to no-one and if any club spoke up on their own it would get worse.

English football had their chance in the aftermath of the Spurs failings, but petty tribalism got in the way. The managers now bleating about the poor quality of refs like Kompany and Postecoglou were the same ones saying how people make mistakes back then and we should move on.

The PMGOL is unfit for purpose.

The PGMOL have shown themselves up on more than one occasion of being petty or spiteful when a club or manager has questioned them.

As you said. Unfit for purpose. They have ruined football. As people have said, many don't even bother watching most of the games any more. What's the fucking point when pretty much every game, pretty much every week is literally decided by the officials?

[Eeyore]

This is true, but it's not corruption, nor about where refs are from. The PMGOL are answerable to no-one and if any club spoke up on their own it would get worse.

English football had their chance in the aftermath of the Spurs failings, but petty tribalism got in the way. The managers now bleating about the poor quality of refs like Kompany and Postecoglou were the same ones saying how people make mistakes back then and we should move on.

The PMGOL is unfit for purpose.

Again you are describing a corrupt organisation.

[clinical]

Ferguson would call this out and so should Klopp. Put pressure on Taylor to not be biased to the Mancs.

[Eeyore]

Ferguson would call this out and so should Klopp. But pressure on Taylor to not be biased to the Mancs.

They have changed the rules though you are not allowed to comment on a referee in the lead-up to a game.

[Draex]

The thing is mate you have perfectly described corrupt practices but then said you don't believe it is corruption.

The implication of many in this thread is the PMGOL and it's members are out to get Liverpool, be that being paid off by cheaty or hating us because of where they come from. I do not believe it's corruption of those forms.

Having a body unaccountable and allowed to twist into the sheer incompetent closed ranks shitshow it is today, technically is that corruption? It's not the above for me, it's a body needing reform, ironically in todays world one of many, tory britain for you..

I see refs coming out against us at Anfield with the mindset they will not let the "kop" influence them, that is a weak / cowards mentality but it's not corruption because it's not Liverpool specifically more the beast the crowd is/represents i.e. how dare anyone question my ability as a ref.

[JammyJimmy]

They could have easily appointed any other referee and there would be no issues.
So disappointing to see this appointment, just doesn't do enough to stop terrible and consistent hacking of our players in these games, will no doubt book one of ours first despite Casemiero fouling 6 or 7 times with no action.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The implication of many in this thread is the PMGOL and it's members are out to get Liverpool, be that being paid off by cheaty or hating us because of where they come from. I do not believe it's corruption of those forms.

Having a body unaccountable and allowed to twist into the sheer incompetent closed ranks shitshow it is today, technically is that corruption? It's not the above for me, it's a body needing reform, ironically in todays world one of many, tory britain for you..

I see refs coming out against us at Anfield with the mindset they will not let the "kop" influence them, that is a weak / cowards mentality but it's not corruption because it's not Liverpool specifically more the beast the crowd is/represents i.e. how dare anyone question my ability as a ref.

Talk me through Taylor's handling of the 5-0 at Old Trafford where he literally allowed them to kick fuck out of us all over the park.

He wasn't even going to send Pogba off initially and don't forget Ronaldo's assault -- kicking fuck out of Curtis Jones as he was on the floor - not a red card according to Mancunian Taylor.

For a team to have to stop attacking for fear of a bad injury was unreal.

Or do you think that didn't happen?

[JammyJimmy]

Ronaldo 100% should have been sent off, that was disgusting and he for sure would have sent one of ours of for the same.
Just look at the b.s. red cards we have received, v what they and City get away with.

[Draex]

Talk me through Taylor's handling of the 5-0 at Old Trafford where he literally allowed them to kick fuck out of us all over the park.

He wasn't even going to send Pogba off initially and don't forget Ronaldo's assault.

For a team to have to stop attacking for fear of a bad injury was unreal.

Or do you think that didn't happen?

He lost control, it's like he's given a directive from above to ref the match in a certain way and he's simply not good enough to ref the game as it is rather than how he's told it should be.

I also think we as a team are too soft, I get why under Klopp we are but if our players crowded refs and got at them things would be different in my opinion, but we just let it happen. Refs are weak, we give them far too much undeserved respect.

[rob1966]

Talk me through Taylor's handling of the 5-0 at Old Trafford where he literally allowed them to kick fuck out of us all over the park.

He wasn't even going to send Pogba off initially and don't forget Ronaldo's assault.

For a team to have to stop attacking for fear of a bad injury was unreal.

Or do you think that didn't happen?

That Ronaldo one was a straight red for violent conduct for any player from any other club. He kicks Jones twice then boots the ball into his bollocks.

[Peabee]

The implication of many in this thread is the PMGOL and it's members are out to get Liverpool, be that being paid off by cheaty or hating us because of where they come from. I do not believe it's corruption of those forms.

Having a body unaccountable and allowed to twist into the sheer incompetent closed ranks shitshow it is today, technically is that corruption? It's not the above for me, it's a body needing reform, ironically in todays world one of many, tory britain for you..

I see refs coming out against us at Anfield with the mindset they will not let the "kop" influence them, that is a weak / cowards mentality but it's not corruption because it's not Liverpool specifically more the beast the crowd is/represents i.e. how dare anyone question my ability as a ref.

Yes, it is on the scale of corruption. It doesn't necessarily have to involve "money". Most of us aren't even claiming money is involved. Abusing their powers, for example, to keep it closed ranks is for their own personal gain.

[KillieRed]

Interesting that Coote was a bit more evenhanded after getting called a cheat by the Kop. The foul count discrepancy was just bizarre though.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

He lost control, it's like he's given a directive from above to ref the match in a certain way and he's simply not good enough to ref the game as it is rather than how he's told it should be.

I also think we as a team are too soft, I get why under Klopp we are but if our players crowded refs and got at them things would be different in my opinion, but we just let it happen. Refs are weak, we give them far too much undeserved respect.

If you are saying that an official isn't refereeing a game to the rules of football then that's corrupt isn't it?

[Red Beret]

The thing that pisses me off about Taylor is that the club SHOULD protest, but it won't make jack shit difference. And then Taylor will be even less inclined to be remotely objective.