Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[oldfordie]

It could easily impact some areas, if the voting is close.

A quote from the article:

Yeah am sure your right but it's the people who represent these factions saying they have the power to do it that will do the harm.

[Yorkykopite]

Not really.  The better educated you are, the less likely to believe the bullshit, vote against your opwn interests, and be ignorant.  You're also more likely to be aware of the wider issues at play.

Quick historical reminder. The Labour Party was built on the backs of poorly educated people.

(And the Tories -  'the stupid party' as they were traditionally known - was the party of the highly educated). 

[killer-heels]

Dont think Labour are in a position to take anything for granted. Mandelson was saying he doesnt think Labour will get a majority. Some of the projections of seats are just mad in the polls, there is no way this country likes this Labour party enough for that.

[Red-Soldier]

Quick historical reminder. The Labour Party was built on the backs of poorly educated people.

(And the Tories -  'the stupid party' as they were traditionally known - was the party of the highly educated).

Currently, data shows that the more educated you are (the voters), the less likely you are to vote Tory/Republican.

[Yorkykopite]

Currently, data shows that the more educated you are, the less likely you are to vote Tory/Republican.

Sure, but it's not some 'golden rule' or 'iron law of history'. It's a highly circumstantial phenomenon.

[TepidT2O]

Quick historical reminder. The Labour Party was built on the backs of poorly educated people.

(And the Tories -  'the stupid party' as they were traditionally known - was the party of the highly educated). 

todays yougov poll showed that this has totally changed (assuming social class is linked to education)

[Red-Soldier]

Sure, but it's not some 'golden rule' or 'iron law of history'. It's a highly circumstantial phenomenon.

I never said it was.  I was speaking about current voters and their voting patterns.

[Red-Soldier]

Dont think Labour are in a position to take anything for granted. Mandelson was saying he doesnt think Labour will get a majority. Some of the projections of seats are just mad in the polls, there is no way this country likes this Labour party enough for that.

Agree.  They are clearly worried enough to be reaching out to these groups.

[Yorkykopite]

I never said it was.  I was speaking about current voters and their voting patterns.

It sounded a bit "golden rulish": 

"The better educated you are, the less likely to believe the bullshit, vote against your own interests, and be ignorant.  You're also more likely to be aware of the wider issues at play."

[oldfordie]

Currently, data shows that the more educated you are (the voters), the less likely you are to vote Tory/Republican.

I think the anomaly is down to assuming anyone who you would class as on the left will have left wing views on all issues. am sure people will say they knew this once it's pointed out but it's easy to just to overlook it.
 The History of Liverpool is a perfect example on how this influences how people vote.
Liverpool suffered terrible hardship in the 1900s-1960s. it was a shock to learn it was a Tory city for decades as I doubt theres any more left wing city in the country right now,  so you have to consider why Liverpool voted Tory for so long, it couldn't have been there views on poverty, housing etc weren't on the left, am sure they were but it was other views that made them vote Tory. similar to Brexit, the threat of Irish immigration. you could describe Liverpool on the right on these issues during those years.

[west_london_red]

Dont think Labour are in a position to take anything for granted. Mandelson was saying he doesnt think Labour will get a majority. Some of the projections of seats are just mad in the polls, there is no way this country likes this Labour party enough for that.

It’s not a case of liking Labour as much as it is hating the Tories

[Red-Soldier]

It’s not a case of liking Labour as much as it is hating the Tories

I think the Tory hatred will see Labour through.

[Yorkykopite]

I think the Tory hatred will see Labour through.

Five years too late, but better late than never.

[west_london_red]

I think the Tory hatred will see Labour through.

100%, there is enough ill will towards the Tories to see Labour through this election, it’s then up to Labour once in power to give people a reason to keep voting for them, that’s the challenge.

[killer-heels]

It’s not a case of liking Labour as much as it is hating the Tories

Not sure hating a party less is going to deliver some of the big majorities being predicted.

[RedDeadRejection]

Not sure hating a party less is going to deliver some of the big majorities being predicted.

As with any elections since 2010. Prepare for disappointment. This is the British electorate we are talking about.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not sure hating a party less is going to deliver some of the big majorities being predicted.

We need a far-left leader in right now with unworkable plans that are unfunded, uncosted, don't deal with literally anything that matters to families that are losing their homes can't pay their rent, have no hope and no way to survive that can know that these plans which affect someone else in the world they've never heard of, never cared about and doesn't affect them to steal them of everything they own.

RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

[killer-heels]

We need a far-left leader in right now with unworkable plans that are unfunded, uncosted, don't deal with literally anything that matters to families that are losing their homes can't pay their rent, have no hope and no way to survive that can know that these plans which affect someone else in the world they've never heard of, never cared about and doesn't affect them to steal them of everything they own.

RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

Sounds good. Any of them about?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Sounds good. Any of them about?

Sounds good to who?

[TepidT2O]

As with any elections since 2010. Prepare for disappointment. This is the British electorate we are talking about.

I’m not convinced.  I know by elections aren’t quite the same, but they’ve been delivering results like the ones the bigger poll leads predict

[Wabaloolah]

You trust Frottage to keep his word and hold that together, rather take the Tory bribe just as elections come and stand down all candidates where they oppose the Tories? I expect him to do as he did last election.

I don't trust Frottage no but still think they'll still stand and even if they don't I'm not convinced all their voters would go back to a Sunak led Tory party

[Wabaloolah]

Dont think Labour are in a position to take anything for granted. Mandelson was saying he doesnt think Labour will get a majority. Some of the projections of seats are just mad in the polls, there is no way this country likes this Labour party enough for that.

This New Statesman article explains why a comfortable majority for Labour isn't as difficult as it was previously thought to be.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2024/01/labours-path-majority-general-election

and non-paywall version

https://archive.ph/Xzhev

[Wabaloolah]

As with any elections since 2010. Prepare for disappointment. This is the British electorate we are talking about.

It feels much different this time, more like 1997 than 1992 to me

[Red-Soldier]

Five years too late, but better late than never.

I don't think they were really hated, five years ago.  Johnson, certainly wasn't.

[gazzalfc]

I've said it before. Labour currently have the polls but the Tories have the advantage of time. A lot can and will happen in the next 9 months.

We've not even started the election phase of politicians eating things on camera and finding out that a leader's great-great-great aunt twice removed once spoke out against the monarchy (enemy of the people)....

We are right in the middle of the 'Focus Group' phase. Both sides are trying everything to find out where the weak points are and where the main battle lines will be drawn. That was why Sunak threw out the usual tropes about Labour 'Not knowing what a woman was' and 'Starmer invoices terrorists'. They spent the rest of the week polling their tory backed focus groups to find out what line worked best.

I still have no interest in knowing what Labours plans are for their first 100 days in office or their policies going into an election. They need to be the ones pointing to the dumpster fire opposite and saying 'We are not that'. Keep hammering that home and once we get close to August/September, thats when you launch the fully costed manifesto and lay out plans.

[Red-Soldier]

More on Labour's Muslim vote:

‘Trust is lost’: Muslim voters unhappy with Labour’s stance on Gaza war

Party’s position has shifted with Keir Starmer now calling for a ‘sustainable ceasefire’ but for some voters it is too little too late

At Walsall Central mosque, a redbrick building on a street of Victorian terraces in the West Midlands market town, the imam, Murthaza Qadri, has reflected on the changing views of his congregation over the past few months.

“There was never much talk about politics before but now everyone cares, lots of people are speaking up,” he said last week. “We’ve been brought up in an environment where we were blindly supporters of Labour, old and young. But now people are opening their eyes a bit more.”

The issue that has opened the eyes of Muslims in Walsall and elsewhere across the country is Labour’s failure to explicitly demand a permanent ceasefire in the war between Israel and Hamas. The party’s position has shifted in recent weeks but, with more than 25,000 casualties in Gaza and a growing humanitarian catastrophe, it is too little and too late for many Muslims.

The anguish and anger felt by Muslims in the UK over the Israel-Gaza war could spell trouble for Labour at the next election. An opinion poll carried out in November by Savanta found strong support for Labour among Muslim voters, with 64% backing the party. But more than 40% said Keir Starmer’s response to the war had made them less likely to vote Labour, while 20% said it had made them more likely to do so. One in three Muslim voters rated the conflict among their top three issues in deciding who to vote for.

In Ilford North, local activists have selected a candidate to challenge the 5,198 majority of the shadow health secretary Wes Streeting specifically on Labour’s position on the Gaza war. Nearly a quarter of the population is Muslim.

In Walsall, where 11.3% of the population is Muslim, eight Labour councillors who resigned from the party over the issue in November are considering putting up a candidate at the general election.

This month Ammar Anwar, a Labour councillor in Kirklees, Yorkshire, and a lifelong member of the party, announced his resignation in tears and with a Palestinian flag draped around his neck. Eleven Labour councillors in Burnley resigned from the party in November, 10 resigned in Oxford, eight quit in Blackburn, and there have been others.

Aftab Nawaz, one of those who resigned in Walsall, said he had been inundated with messages of support from the Muslim community. “We had calls from all over the place, not just in Walsall. People were coming up to us and hugging us and saying well done, you’ve stood up for what you believe, you’ve stood up for us and you’ll always be our heroes. We’re not heroes,” he said.

Nawaz said he had been unhappy with the party’s creeping “central control”, but it was its response to the war that pushed him over the edge. “We saw a side of the Labour party which we didn’t expect,” he said. “If we are sitting at home or in our mosques praying for the people of Palestine, yet we represent a party whose leader isn’t saying that this should stop, we ourselves become complicit.”

He said walking away from Labour had been a difficult decision. His father, who came to work in the West Midlands metal-bashing factories, had been supported by Labour and the union movement at a time when ethnic minorities were being targeted by the National Front.

“We were all Labour people and we always trusted that the Labour party would do the right thing. People voted for the Labour party without even blinking, they wouldn’t read the manifesto,” he said.

He joined the party in 2000 and spent many hours campaigning as a paper candidate in wards that the party had little chance in winning – “we used to call it flying the red flag”.

“You’d go out in the middle of the snow and rain deliver leaflets and get people’s doors smashed in your face because they didn’t want to know anything,” he said. “But it was something that enriched my life, and I’ll never regret being part of the Labour party. We’re still Labour people. I’ve said to people it’s not that we’ve left the Labour party, the Labour party has left us.”

Qadri, the imam, who has been a party member for six years but is unlikely to vote for Labour in the next election, was confident he had a good insight into the views of the hundreds of people who attend Walsall Central mosque each week.

Younger people in particular were influenced by what they saw about the conflict on social media, he said. They were emailing their MPs to demand answers and passing the message on to older generations.

That message appeared to be cutting through in Walsall. Nahid Ahmed, 54, a former Labour party member of 15 years who left the party over its stance on Palestine, said he would vote for an independent candidate or abstain. “Labour thinks Muslims are going to vote [for them] anyway, but they have to understand this has changed now,” he said.

Even if Starmer explicitly backed an immediate and permanent ceasefire now after months of death and destruction, it may not bring Muslim votes back into the fold.

“As things are getting worse in Palestine, you would expect their sense of moral duty, their humane side, to have come out and it hasn’t. That trust is lost,” said Sajad, 40, who declined to give her surname.

In the immediate aftermath of the horrific atrocities committed by Hamas and others on 7 October, the Labour leadership offered full-throated support for Israel. In an interview on LBC radio a few days later, Starmer said Israel had the right to withhold power and water in Gaza. His words – which he later sought to clarify – shocked many Labour supporters.

In response, three senior frontbenchers – Streeting, Shabana Mahmood and Louise Haigh – warned in a shadow cabinet meeting that Labour was at risk of losing Muslim votes.

The following month, 56 Labour MPs rebelled against the leadership by backing a Scottish National party amendment to the king’s speech that explicitly called for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza war. Eight frontbenchers resigned their posts.

Despite his shadow cabinet warning, Streeting was not among them. In his Ilford North constituency, protests were held outside the MP’s constituency office, and a grassroots organisation, the Redbridge Community Action Group (RCAG), was formed.

“Trust has irretrievably broken down between British Muslims and the Labour party. It’s a fundamental break,” said Vaseem Ahmed, a spokesperson for the RCAG. Leading Labour MPs had shown a “lack of empathy to the 75-year suffering of the Palestinian people … For them, Palestinian lives matter much less than others,” he said.

This month the RCAG held a meeting to choose an independent candidate to contest the general election. “We are proud to live in a democracy and we are using democracy to make our views known,” Ahmed said.

The candidate, Leanne Mohamad, a 23-year-old British-Palestinian who grew up in the constituency, said: “It’s clear to me and countless others that Labour no longer represents the interests of working people. British Muslims are aghast at what is taking place in Gaza and they have marched in their millions to make this point.”

She said Labour had failed “to hold Israel to account for its actions and they still haven’t called for an immediate ceasefire in order to save lives. The sheer hypocrisy between their position on Ukraine when compared to Gaza lays bare what many, including Muslims, now see as a party devoid of any principles whatsoever.”

Mahmoud Rauf, 77, a retired accountant who has lived in the area for more than 40 years and is a lifelong Labour supporter, said he had previously canvassed for Streeting but would not do so again, and may not even vote Labour at the next election.

“Wes Streeting might have a good bashing when the election comes because this area [is home to] a lot of supporters from the Palestinian side,” he said. “I don’t support [him] any more. I don’t see that he’s playing fair.”

Another accountant, Imtyaz Vakil, 54, a Labour voter who switched to the Conservatives after the Iraq war, said he would never again vote for either party. He had joined RCAG and would be supporting Mohamed in the election, saying her candidacy was “the first piece in the whole jigsaw”.

Political parties would ignore Muslim voices at their peril, he said. “It’s the second, third generation of Muslims here and we’re growing. We’re not just going to sit back and accept that.”

In recent weeks, senior Labour figures have toughened their language in response to the scale of killing and destruction in Gaza. Last month, Streeting spoke of the need for a “sustainable ceasefire” amid “intolerable civilian casualties”. On Tuesday, Starmer told the Commons: “What is needed in Gaza is a humanitarian truce now, a sustainable ceasefire to stop the killing of innocent civilians.”

Streeting told the Guardian: “For the last nine years I’ve consistently fought for all communities in Redbridge, including launching the all-party parliamentary group on British Muslims … [and] campaigning for the recognition of a Palestinian state and the end of human rights abuses. The next election is a choice between five more years of Conservative failure or change for the better with Labour.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/trust-is-lost-muslim-voters-unhappy-with-labour-stance-on-gaza-war

Obviously, nobody here is really qualified to comment on this, with any authority.  However, it's clear that there is an issue here, the leadership are concerned and that (potentially) a substantial number of people, are upset.

[Red-Soldier]

Labour has no intention of reinstating cap on bankers’ bonuses, says Reeves

Shadow chancellor says party aims to be champion of a thriving financial sector if it wins election

Labour will not reinstate a cap on bankers’ bonuses if it wins the next election, the shadow chancellor has said.

Rachel Reeves said she had “no intention” of bringing back the cap, saying she wanted to be the “champion of a thriving financial services industry”.

The regulations, which limited annual bonus payouts to twice a banker’s salary, were introduced by the EU in 2014, in a move aimed at preventing excessive risk-taking after the 2008 financial crisis.

In 2022, the then chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng announced that he would be removing this rule as part of his now infamous mini-budget under Liz Truss’s short-lived reign as prime minister.

The decision received widespread criticism for rewarding bankers and failing to address cost-of-living concerns affecting households across the UK.

However, it was one of the few mini-budget policies to be kept under Rishi Sunak’s leadership, with the new rules coming into force in October last year.

Unions claimed Sunak was fuelling a “greed is good” culture in the City of London. The cap originally limited bonuses to two times bankers’ salaries, giving the average City worker an opportunity to pocket as much as £120,000 extra, equivalent to about seven times the average pay of a care worker, the Trades Union Congress said.

Reeves told the BBC on Wednesday: “The cap on bankers’ bonuses was brought in the aftermath of the global financial crisis and that was the right thing to do to rebuild the public finances.

“But that has gone now and we don’t have any intention of bringing that back. And as chancellor of the exchequer, I would want to be a champion of a successful and thriving financial services industry in the UK.”

Labour said on Tuesday that it planned to cut swathes of red tape in the financial services sector, while “unashamedly championing” the industry.

In a 24-page document, seen by the Guardian, Labour has promised to cut down 10,000 pages of regulations and ruled out a windfall tax on bank profits.

Reeves defended the move, insisting it was not about watering-down protection for consumers or the UK’s financial stability.

Labour will formally announce its plans to harness the strengths of the financial sector to City bosses at its business conference in London on Thursday.

Nice to see Reeves sharing the same ideas as Kwarteng.

[thaddeus]

Labour has no intention of reinstating cap on bankers’ bonuses, says Reeves

Shadow chancellor says party aims to be champion of a thriving financial sector if it wins election



Nice to see Reeves sharing the same idea as Kwarteng.

It's very much aligned with Blair and Brown.  The UK exchequer did well off the change dropped to the floor by the mega casino that was UK banking - right up until the point that it nearly bankrupted the country.  I don't know whether Brown has ever talked about it since and if he'd have been less laissez-faire if given his time again.  Reeves and the talk of "cutting swathes of red tape" don't inspire me that we're heading for anything but a repeat of 2008, but this time without a generally healthy economy to absorb it.

Pragmatically I don't have a huge problem with Reeves championing the finance sector if it's sustainable and is going to lead to better public services.  I'm not convinced of the correlation between banker bonuses and government tax take though and I'm quite sure many senior Labour figures questioned that at the time of Truss/Kwarteng as well.  It's certainly not good a good look for Labour to be deeming a 200% bonus for bankers insufficient when the majority of people that they need to vote them into power are barely scraping by.

[killer-heels]

Rachel Reeves is utter shite. Honestly I dont see what anyone see’s in her that is in anyway positive or progressive. She is as right wing within the party as they come and wields an incredible amount of power, probably because Starmer doesnt know anything about economic policy.

I think she is going to put a barrier up to anything good and at the end of the first Labour term we will be talking about a party that wasted their opportunity.

[Red-Soldier]

It's very much aligned with Blair and Brown.  The UK exchequer did well off the change dropped to the floor by the mega casino that was UK banking - right up until the point that it nearly bankrupted the country.  I don't know whether Brown has ever talked about it since and if he'd have been less laissez-faire if given his time again.  Reeves and the talk of "cutting swathes of red tape" don't inspire me that we're heading for anything but a repeat of 2008, but this time without a generally healthy economy to absorb it.

Pragmatically I don't have a huge problem with Reeves championing the finance sector if it's sustainable and is going to lead to better public services.  I'm not convinced of the correlation between banker bonuses and government tax take though and I'm quite sure many senior Labour figures questioned that at the time of Truss/Kwarteng as well. It's certainly not good a good look for Labour to be deeming a 200% bonus for bankers insufficient when the majority of people that they need to vote them into power are barely scraping by.

One of the issues we have is the concentration of wealth and focus, on the London financial sector.  Which has been hit massively, of course, by the elephant in the room (Brexit).

Yes, I think I remember them making point about tax revenue, at the time.

"Not a good look", is a bit of an understatement, I think.  It's shocking and morally indefensible, particularly in the current climate.  I think Kwarteng took a hammering, when he did it.

Could you imagine another GFC in the current climate...?? 

[west_london_red]

It's very much aligned with Blair and Brown.  The UK exchequer did well off the change dropped to the floor by the mega casino that was UK banking - right up until the point that it nearly bankrupted the country.  I don't know whether Brown has ever talked about it since and if he'd have been less laissez-faire if given his time again.  Reeves and the talk of "cutting swathes of red tape" don't inspire me that we're heading for anything but a repeat of 2008, but this time without a generally healthy economy to absorb it.

Pragmatically I don't have a huge problem with Reeves championing the finance sector if it's sustainable and is going to lead to better public services.  I'm not convinced of the correlation between banker bonuses and government tax take though and I'm quite sure many senior Labour figures questioned that at the time of Truss/Kwarteng as well.  It's certainly not good a good look for Labour to be deeming a 200% bonus for bankers insufficient when the majority of people that they need to vote them into power are barely scraping by.

It’s never a good look when your looking to favour the wealthy, but ultimately the money will get to them one way or another, whether it’s higher bonuses, higher base pay and lower bonuses or the business keeps the money and distributes it to shareholders the money isn’t going to trickle down to the rest of us. The one positive is that pay is taxed higher then dividends.

[TepidT2O]

Reeves single job right now is not to spook the markets when labour get into power. You don’t want a ‘toxic shock’ reaction on the day of an election victory.
Of course, most of us rightly think bankers pay is obscene. And it’s important that this is recognised in policy. In reality capping bankers bonuses just pushed up their base pay instead. Which is possibly even worse.
So what’s the priority? This is tough. As a country we’ve absolutely fucked ourselves with Brexit. Basically a lot of our money comes from the banking sector and with the damage we’ve done to everything else in the economy, can we afford not to support the banking sector to grow? For me the bonus cap ‘feels’ right in principle , but we’ve snookered ourselves so much that it’s paralysis a good argument that we shouldn’t do so any more?

[BigCDump]

More on Labour's Muslim vote:

‘Trust is lost’: Muslim voters unhappy with Labour’s stance on Gaza war

Party’s position has shifted with Keir Starmer now calling for a ‘sustainable ceasefire’ but for some voters it is too little too late

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/jan/30/trust-is-lost-muslim-voters-unhappy-with-labour-stance-on-gaza-war

Obviously, nobody here is really qualified to comment on this, with any authority.  However, it's clear that there is an issue here, the leadership are concerned and that (potentially) a substantial number of people, are upset.

Oh look. Poor lambs worried about the Muslim vote. Shame. They can go to hell, all of them. Even the ones that stood against genocide but still wear Labour colours under Starmer. Still waiting for Corbyn to stand independently.

[killer-heels]

Reeves single job right now is not to spook the markets when labour get into power. You don’t want a ‘toxic shock’ reaction on the day of an election victory.
Of course, most of us rightly think bankers pay is obscene. And it’s important that this is recognised in policy. In reality capping bankers bonuses just pushed up their base pay instead. Which is possibly even worse.
So what’s the priority? This is tough. As a country we’ve absolutely fucked ourselves with Brexit. Basically a lot of our money comes from the banking sector and with the damage we’ve done to everything else in the economy, can we afford not to support the banking sector to grow? For me the bonus cap ‘feels’ right in principle , but we’ve snookered ourselves so much that it’s paralysis a good argument that we shouldn’t do so any more?

Sorry but is the market going to be spooked by banker bonus caps? Really? Is that the only way the banking sector will grow? Whats to stop another financial crash?

In terms of whats the priority, its hardly a lot of time to keep a cap in place.

People are just making excuses for Reeves and the party. This is not Liverpool football club, Labour dont deserve the benefit of the doubt or blind loyalty on every decision they make. They need to earn it.

[TepidT2O]

Sorry but is the market going to be spooked by banker bonus caps? Really? Is that the only way the banking sector will grow? Whats to stop another financial crash?

In terms of whats the priority, its hardly a lot of time to keep a cap in place.

People are just making excuses for Reeves and the party. This is not Liverpool football club, Labour dont deserve the benefit of the doubt or blind loyalty on every decision they make. They need to earn it.

I am making a reasoned argument to the challenges she faces and as to the efficacy of the bonus cap.

[PatriotScouser]

Oh look. Poor lambs worried about the Muslim vote. Shame. They can go to hell, all of them. Even the ones that stood against genocide but still wear Labour colours under Starmer. Still waiting for Corbyn to stand independently.

So am I so you and they can all piss off the support him and hopefully his new Party.

[Red-Soldier]

Kwarteng took a hammering, when he did it.

Of course, Brexit has fucked us, but that's nothing new and deregulating the financial sector (which was the aim of Kwarteng), wont solve the long-term issues.

These checks and balances were there to prevent excessive risk taking, and another GFC.

[thaddeus]

Sorry but is the market going to be spooked by banker bonus caps? Really? Is that the only way the banking sector will grow? Whats to stop another financial crash?

In terms of whats the priority, its hardly a lot of time to keep a cap in place.

People are just making excuses for Reeves and the party. This is not Liverpool football club, Labour dont deserve the benefit of the doubt or blind loyalty on every decision they make. They need to earn it.

It does seem like they're focussing on wooing "small c conservatives".  They're effectively parking their tanks on the Tory lawn in a similar way to Johnson wooing the "red wallers".  Both took their core voter base for granted and, whilst it led to a landslide victory for Johnson, it doesn't seem like a sustainable approach.

Labour strategists are probably right that many traditional Labour voters will hold their nose and go out and vote for them as it's the best way to get the Tories out.  The next government are going to inherit a bad hand to play with but I certainly don't feel at all inspired at the moment.

[RedDeadRejection]

So am I so you and they can all piss off the support him and hopefully his new Party.

And split the left vote? That wouldn't be good for any of us.

[Red-Soldier]

100%, there is enough ill will towards the Tories to see Labour through this election, it’s then up to Labour once in power to give people a reason to keep voting for them, that’s the challenge.

I agree.