Topic: UAPs over America: real or balloons??

[Alan_X]

Whoever supplied him with the exotic materials to analyse is the logical answer.

Found this yesterday. He actually shows the interviewer some examples. The source was apparently Hal Puthoff (yes him again). They call Puthoff who says the source was ‘someone who claimed to be a military officer’. The samples are a couple of tiny pieces if magnesium and a bit of bismuth. It’s all a bit sad.

https://youtu.be/dzTZbSNsKV8

For anyone interested. I found a paper on the composition of the Ubatuba magnesium samples that Nolan showed.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ubatuba-sample-Strontium-Copper-Zinc-and-Barium-Isotopes-abundances-from-a-1001-sample_tbl2_360788800

Magnesium obtained in 1957 from a reported event in Brazil. Very interesting as it lists all of the labs that did tests over the years and the results. Bottom line is that it is possibly extra terrestrial but similar to sample from a meteorite.

[Alan_X]

This is the UAP thread - not the Baileys thread.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Found this yesterday. He actually shows the interviewer some examples. The source was apparently Hal Puthoff (yes him again). They call Puthoff who says the source was ‘someone who claimed to be a military officer’. The samples are a couple of tiny pieces if magnesium and a bit of bismuth. It’s all a bit sad.

https://youtu.be/dzTZbSNsKV8

For anyone interested. I found a paper on the composition of the Ubatuba magnesium samples that Nolan showed.

And Jacques Vallée supplied the bismuth. I can understand people being interested in the subject (much like your interest, Alan), and for allkinds of possible and legitimate reasons. However, there is something really off-kilter and unscientific about how Nolan approaches the subject. Nolan and the interviewer come across as a couple of devotees, swaping anecdotes and the like. And like conspiracy theorists, they seem locked in group think, only focussed on reinforcing their desired conclusion, making the evidence fit (and ignoring evidence to the contrary).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ubatuba-sample-Strontium-Copper-Zinc-and-Barium-Isotopes-abundances-from-a-1001-sample_tbl2_360788800

Magnesium obtained in 1957 from a reported event in Brazil. Very interesting as it lists all of the labs that did tests over the years and the results. Bottom line is that it is possibly extra terrestrial but similar to sample from a meteorite.

These researchers seem much more credible. All four are involved in serious UFO/UAP research, but they stick to the scientific method, and seek out experts in the fields where they require specialised testing and understanding. Brilliant as he might be in the field of leukemia, I gain no similar sense with Nolan when it comes to UFO/UAP research.

[thejbs]

This is the UAP thread - not the Baileys thread.

That’s precisely what a government disinformation agent would say.

[Alan_X]

That’s precisely what a government disinformation agent would say.

I’m called Alan_X for a reason 😉.

[[new username under construction]]

I’m called Alan_X for a reason 😉.

Oh you mean it's NOT a porn thing? WTF!

[thejbs]

Oh you mean it's NOT a porn thing? WTF!

He needs a less porny undercover name… like er, Deep Throat…

[Jiminy Cricket]

He needs a less porny undercover name… like er, Deep Throat…

And a name less prone to unfortunate typos: Anal_X.

[So… Howard Philips]

Didn’t take long for smut to rear its ugly head.

Mind you anal probing……..

[Jiminy Cricket]

Didn’t take long for smut to rear its ugly head.

Mind you anal probing……..

At least we are pretty much back on topic! Alan_X will be pleased.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4u3wqe/how_did_anal_probing_become_associated_with_alien/

[Alan_X]

And Jacques Vallée supplied the bismuth. I can understand people being interested in the subject (much like your interest, Alan), and for allkinds of possible and legitimate reasons. However, there is something really off-kilter and unscientific about how Nolan approaches the subject. Nolan and the interviewer come across as a couple of devotees, swaping anecdotes and the like. And like conspiracy theorists, they seem locked in group think, only focussed on reinforcing their desired conclusion, making the evidence fit (and ignoring evidence to the contrary).These researchers seem much more credible. All four are involved in serious UFO/UAP research, but they stick to the scientific method, and seek out experts in the fields where they require specialised testing and understanding. Brilliant as he might be in the field of leukemia, I gain no similar sense with Nolan when it comes to UFO/UAP research.

Good summary. Looking again at the paper, an earlier analysis was by Peter Sturrock - a physicist at Stanford. Sturrock also writes about UFOs. So it’s weird that there’s a phone conversation with Hal Puthoff saying the samples came from someone in the military. The samples say ‘Ubatuba’ for fucks sake. It’s all such bollocks. Desperately trying to take something which has clear provenance (and in my opinion almost certainly debris from a meteorite exploding in the sky over Brazil) and trying to add in a ‘military’ link.

Nolan is a brilliant immunologist and by all accounts Sturrock and others associated are very good scientists. That doesn’t stop them being sucked into the world of ufology and in Nolan’s case embellishing things to add to the mystery.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Good summary. Looking again at the paper, an earlier analysis was by Peter Sturrock - a physicist at Stanford. Sturrock also writes about UFOs. So it’s weird that there’s a phone conversation with Hal Puthoff saying the samples came from someone in the military. The samples say ‘Ubatuba’ for fucks sake. It’s all such bollocks. Desperately trying to take something which has clear provenance (and in my opinion almost certainly debris from a meteorite exploding in the sky over Brazil) and trying to add in a ‘military’ link.

Nolan is a brilliant immunologist and by all accounts Sturrock and others associated are very good scientists. That doesn’t stop them being sucked into the world of ufology and in Nolan’s case embellishing things to add to the mystery.

I find it strange when obviously intelligent people start going all conspiratorial. I think, in the main, they are narcissists and they crave the added attention of extending their existing public profile. Truth and facts can take a back seat.

Off the top of my head, people with existing public profiles who now court the attention - nay, devotion - of conspiracy nuts: Elon Musk; Russell Brand; John Campbell. There are surely plenty of others whose names do not immediately spring to mind. Is Nolan one of them?

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Found this yesterday. He actually shows the interviewer some examples. The source was apparently Hal Puthoff (yes him again). They call Puthoff who says the source was ‘someone who claimed to be a military officer’. The samples are a couple of tiny pieces if magnesium and a bit of bismuth. It’s all a bit sad.

https://youtu.be/dzTZbSNsKV8

For anyone interested. I found a paper on the composition of the Ubatuba magnesium samples that Nolan showed.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ubatuba-sample-Strontium-Copper-Zinc-and-Barium-Isotopes-abundances-from-a-1001-sample_tbl2_360788800

Magnesium obtained in 1957 from a reported event in Brazil. Very interesting as it lists all of the labs that did tests over the years and the results. Bottom line is that it is possibly extra terrestrial but similar to sample from a meteorite.

Sped read that link, mainly because most of it you need to be a scientist to understand. I wasn't familiar with the sample or the case. But seems as you say, the outcome is still pretty much inconclusive from what I could make out. No explanation to how such high levels of pure magnesium could be found with strontium added especially in 1957, but can’t rule anything out or in. It’s origin remains a mystery.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Sped read that link, mainly because most of it you need to be a scientist to understand. I wasn't familiar with the sample or the case. But seems as you say, the outcome is still pretty much inconclusive from what I could make out. No explanation to how such high levels of pure magnesium could be found with strontium added especially in 1957, but can’t rule anything out or in. It’s origin remains a mystery.

And that's the pretty obvious conclusion when reading a properly conducted analysis of the samples. But you/I/we get no sense of this from Nolan - quite the opposite in fact. I too am no scientist, but I do trust the scientific method and understand just enough of it in generalities to usually gain a sense of who I can trust. I don't trust what I have seen from Nolan because there other agendas are in the mix and a lack of specifics.

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

And that's the pretty obvious conclusion when reading a properly conducted analysis of the samples. But you/I/we get no sense of this from Nolan - quite the opposite in fact. I too am no scientist, but I do trust the scientific method and understand just enough of it in generalities to usually gain a sense of who I can trust. I don't trust what I have seen from Nolan because there other agendas are in the mix and a lack of specifics.

I trust Nolan enough for a number of reasons, but mainly because he is putting his reputation on the line to go with the big promises that he says are happening soon. That trust obviously has an expiry date, so I will see. Some things are happening now that the likes of Nolan, Mellon, Elizondo, Coulthard and co said would happen 2 years ago, such as the military witness testimony hearings under oath, mooted to happen next few weeks, where the likes of Bob Salas will testify under oath that nuclear missiles were tampered with. Obviously lying under oath is perjury. That is enough for me for now

[liverbloke]

i found this an interesting read regarding really really fast space travel

i'm a non-believer but it's good to see the theory being analysed - especially how a person/alien could exist inside that form of travel and how it would seem impossible for them to perform any acts of navigation and also how it would have to be a pre-planned route regarding the displacement of matter

but again, it's all theoretical and to me theory is not evidence - evidence is

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive?fbclid=IwAR0aUR8DCN069YxoHyWV_uNKQMBuKEWzriP-jrwx-5A0jTVFUa9zVIKWOj0

[Jiminy Cricket]

i found this an interesting read regarding really really fast space travel

i'm a non-believer but it's good to see the theory being analysed - especially how a person/alien could exist inside that form of travel and how it would seem impossible for them to perform any acts of navigation and also how it would have to be a pre-planned route regarding the displacement of matter

but again, it's all theoretical and to me theory is not evidence - evidence is

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive?fbclid=IwAR0aUR8DCN069YxoHyWV_uNKQMBuKEWzriP-jrwx-5A0jTVFUa9zVIKWOj0

I've read about the Alcubierre Drive in the past. When I first read about it, it would require more mass-energy than is available in the observable universe. I think subsequent refinements got it down to about a star, or some such. But doesn't it also require exotic - highly speculative - matter? Namely, 'negative matter'!? Edit: rather, 'negative energy'.

I might give it a read - it has been a few years since I last read about it.

[lionel_messias]

I trust Nolan enough for a number of reasons, but mainly because he is putting his reputation on the line to go with the big promises that he says are happening soon. That trust obviously has an expiry date, so I will see. Some things are happening now that the likes of Nolan, Mellon, Elizondo, Coulthard and co said would happen 2 years ago, such as the military witness testimony hearings under oath, mooted to happen next few weeks, where the likes of Bob Salas will testify under oath that nuclear missiles were tampered with. Obviously lying under oath is perjury. That is enough for me for now

Good points, well made.

And although I haven't read the analysis linked above (but would like to),
I personally don't think any material with truly remarkable properties has yet
been made public.

I imagine testimony under oath to Congress to be a potentially powerful
moment - if and when the right people come forward.

[liverbloke]

I've read about the Alcubierre Drive in the past. When I first read about it, it would require more mass-energy than is available in the observable universe. I think subsequent refinements got it down to about a star, or some such. But doesn't it also require exotic - highly speculative - matter? Namely, 'negative matter'!? Edit: rather, 'negative energy'.

I might give it a read - it has been a few years since I last read about it.

i think what might help perpetuate this theory is that it was only 60 years ago (ish) we had to fill a room with computers to do a task that an average mobile phone could now do in an instant

the more 'we' progress with our knowledge of everything (and nothing) then the more we might be able to understand and readdress current thinking

but i do find it 'silly' when theories exist but rely upon nonsensical factors that determine the outcome - 'yes, we can travel in a bubble using a wave if it was powered by the entire universe/ a collapsed star/ a magic bean/ insert your own here'

[lionel_messias]

I've read about the Alcubierre Drive in the past. When I first read about it, it would require more mass-energy than is available in the observable universe. I think subsequent refinements got it down to about a star, or some such. But doesn't it also require exotic - highly speculative - matter? Namely, 'negative matter'!? Edit: rather, 'negative energy'.

I might give it a read - it has been a few years since I last read about it.

Really interesting to have a quick look at but equally has just cooked my brain for the afternoon with gems like this:

"The Alcubierre metric defines the warp-drive spacetime. It is a Lorentzian manifold that, if interpreted in the context of general relativity, allows a warp bubble to appear in previously flat spacetime and move away at effectively faster-than-light speed."


Like, D'uh.

[liverbloke]

Really interesting to have a quick look at but equally has just cooked my brain for the afternoon with gems like this:

"The Alcubierre metric defines the warp-drive spacetime. It is a Lorentzian manifold that, if interpreted in the context of general relativity, allows a warp bubble to appear in previously flat spacetime and move away at effectively faster-than-light speed."


Like, D'uh.

 

[[new username under construction]]

Lorentzian

I think I take that for Hayfever

[[new username under construction]]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/e4h6hUrbG1o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/e4h6hUrbG1o</a>

[Alan_X]

I think it’s almost a certainty that the building blocks - amino acids - are widespread. It’s possible that in some places those building blocks have become simple organisms. Beyond that everything becomes subject to variables and circumstance.

When the video says are we alone, does ‘we’ mean technological humanoids or any life including single-cell organisms? That’s at the heart of so much of this discussion.

Is there life elsewhere in the universe - probably.
Are there things in the sky that are ‘unidentified’ (insufficient data to define them accurately)? - yes

Does that mean that primitive ‘life’ has developed into multicellular organisms with some DNA type mechanism that allows evolution to operate in a biosphere with the relevant triggers to create pathways to social animals with brains/intelligence. Does the basic structure of the original ‘animal’ allow the development of some kind of digital manipulation, leading to toolmaking and the necessary materials and resources to develop technology?… and so on through millions of decision points until one branch of this alien evolutionary tree get to a stage where they have developed technology to allow interstellar travel and the sensory equipment to pick up signals from earth and travel for thousands of years to check out what intelligence created Last of the Summer Wine.

I think the key question should be “does an evolutionary mechanism exist anywhere else in the universe?”

[lionel_messias]

Now before you even say it, (Alan!) I know some of you don't favour the two media folk who are reporting this on their platform.

However, come on let's look at the information and images. Hell, I'd even be interested in Mick (effing) West or anyone's professional analysis of the photography around this incident, which has over 50 witnesses.

This is certainly UAP, in so much that we need a full understanding of what the object is. I'd go further and put a skeptical hat on, saying: would it be insane if this WAS a United States experimental craft?


Anyway, here's the material:


https://www.weaponizedpodcast.com/news-1/mojave-triangle-uap

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Good post Alan, I don’t see personally what’s so special about us or Earth that evolution can only uniquely be a thing here.

On the latest Weaponised podcast episode, clearly something was there and observed over military controlled airspace. Seems like flares can be confidently ruled out seeing as they launched flares to try and identify what it was and the flares looked completely different. The only other mundane explanation I can think of would be drones, but would they be silent? But that dismisses the eye witness evidence of being able to see an outline of a craft.

[lionel_messias]

Good post Alan, I don’t see personally what’s so special about us or Earth that evolution can only uniquely be a thing here.

On the latest Weaponised podcast episode, clearly something was there and observed over military-controlled airspace. Seems like flares can be confidently ruled out seeing as they launched flares to try and identify what it was and the flares looked completely different. The only other mundane explanation I can think of would be drones, but would they be silent? But that dismisses the eye witness evidence of being able to see an outline of a craft.

Yeah seems like another case of, gee whizz it is great that 50-100 marines have seen it and recorded it on their iPhones;
would be better to see it on a 1080p or 4K camera, and what equipment did the senior military use to check it out?

A perfect case of: if the best equipment would track this object, we'd have some great data - perhaps we do?

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

Yeah seems like another case of, gee whizz it is great that 50-100 marines have seen it and recorded it on their iPhones;
would be better to see it on a 1080p or 4K camera, and what equipment did the senior military use to check it out?

A perfect case of: if the best equipment would track this object, we'd have some great data - perhaps we do?

Seems like the military personnel got frustrated that nothing came of it from officials.

Surely there must be radar data too?

Hopefully this can at least set alarm bells ringing that here is yet another example of things observed in sensitive controlled airspace where the airspace doesn’t seem to be as controlled as you’d expect. As to what it was, again insufficient data, but what weight do you give to 50 eye witnesses.

[lionel_messias]

Seems like the military personnel got frustrated that nothing came of it from officials.

Surely there must be radar data too?

Hopefully this can at least set alarm bells ringing that here is yet another example of things observed in sensitive controlled airspace where the airspace doesn’t seem to be as controlled as you’d expect. As to what it was, again insufficient data, but what weight do you give to 50 eye witnesses.

We should gave fair weight to 50+ marine eye witnesses, not generally known for making themselves look foolish.

And if my theory was correct and this was an American experimental aircraft, would you fly that over a Marine base and not tell anyone?

Also, cool kit if they've got it. Hanging around in mid-air without noticable propulsion? Sweet ride.

[liverbloke]

something that always bugs me about craft being recorded on video or camera...

so if it is extraterrestrial then why oh why would they make the craft seemingly invisible - or us something to cloak the craft - then think to themselves 'hey let's turn the outside lights on - what could go wrong with that?'

and why have outside lights anyway? surely if they've travelled from deep space then they don't need landing lights or lights to stop other aircraft crashing into them because they can move in incredible ways incredibly fast

and these slow-moving craft (as shown in the above link) why are they moving so fucking slowly?

again, if it were aliens then why think 'oh let';s shut off hyper drive and just drift cooly for a while with our lights on as that'll never draw attention to us especially from hostile military aircraft'

it only makes sense if it's human-generated military craft - and that would explain the lights

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

something that always bugs me about craft being recorded on video or camera...

so if it is extraterrestrial then why oh why would they make the craft seemingly invisible - or us something to cloak the craft - then think to themselves 'hey let's turn the outside lights on - what could go wrong with that?'

and why have outside lights anyway? surely if they've travelled from deep space then they don't need landing lights or lights to stop other aircraft crashing into them because they can move in incredible ways incredibly fast

and these slow-moving craft (as shown in the above link) why are they moving so fucking slowly?

again, if it were aliens then why think 'oh let';s shut off hyper drive and just drift cooly for a while with our lights on as that'll never draw attention to us especially from hostile military aircraft'

it only makes sense if it's human-generated military craft - and that would explain the lights

Not answering your questions one way or another, but some thoughts. I get what you’re saying about landing lights. But I guess we don’t know anything about it at all really to be able to determine anything. Were they actually lights in the way we think of them on aircraft? Could the lights be something else and not lights as such? I don’t think in this case, the craft was invisible, the eye witnesses said they saw an outline/solid object about half a football field wide and around the height of a 2/3 story house.

If it’s something man made, let’s say a super advanced stealth bomber, I guess that brings its own set of questions, how have the engineers worked out a propulsion method that’s silent and enables a craft to hang in one place? As the eye witnesses said, how did the craft just vanish as soon as the flares launched were about to light it up? All questions and no answers

A Twitter link here to a zoom up of the lights/whatever they are

https://twitter.com/tinyklaus/status/1660969081145552903?s=61

[liverbloke]

Not answering your questions one way or another, but some thoughts. I get what you’re saying about landing lights. But I guess we don’t know anything about it at all really to be able to determine anything. Were they actually lights in the way we think of them on aircraft? Could the lights be something else and not lights as such? I don’t think in this case, the craft was invisible, the eye witnesses said they saw an outline/solid object about half a football field wide and around the height of a 2/3 story house.

If it’s something man made, let’s say a super advanced stealth bomber, I guess that brings its own set of questions, how have the engineers worked out a propulsion method that’s silent and enables a craft to hang in one place? As the eye witnesses said, how did the craft just vanish as soon as the flares launched were about to light it up? All questions and no answers

A Twitter link here to a close up of the lights/whatever they are

https://twitter.com/tinyklaus/status/1660969081145552903?s=61

kites? balloons? gliders? blimps? airships? all can move without sound (or very low sound) and even hover if needed

and the question about this 'silent movement' - it depends on the distance and the wind

you can easily look up at an aircraft and not hear a thing

and regarding 50+ marines - mass hysteria could explain that

similar to when you're in a group of people and some start running shouting 'run run' and you are swept along by nothing but the fact that there is something you need to run away from as everyone else is doing it

..but the lights thing - yeh, no person who 'believes' has ever come up with a convincing answer

[lionel_messias]

There's a 3rd explanation, and don't forget I first floated a US-tech explanation for the UAP just above:

If these are examples of Non-human-technologies, they might be here as part of some long-term machine learning programme for our benefit - they want us to see and find them, and ponder about the shit we're doing as part of this discovery...

["Bobber" Thanks :)]

I wouldn’t like to even begin to guess what they were, I wasn’t there. For every answer there’s even more questions. Hope by bringing this out, it can stimulate the conversation in a non biased way that might help provide answers.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I've read about the Alcubierre Drive in the past. When I first read about it, it would require more mass-energy than is available in the observable universe. I think subsequent refinements got it down to about a star, or some such. But doesn't it also require exotic - highly speculative - matter? Namely, 'negative matter'!? Edit: rather, 'negative energy'.

I might give it a read - it has been a few years since I last read about it.

The things I've seen mentioned over the years are Ramscoops. There is very little matter in most of space, but at relevatistic speeds (Below the speed of light, obviously) you can scoopy enough matter that could be used in a fusion drive. Theoretically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet


But you'd have to be a class 2 of this to build it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Which rules us out for a bit

[rob1966]

This thread reminded me of footage I saw as a kid which facinated me at the time, it was 1976 and what looks like a silver ball dropped down beside Concorde, bounces up and then stays with it (56 secs in). Did they ever actually explain what it was, like was it moisture on the camera lens, a reflection from the sun etc?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/vU_bw2cSKDg&amp;t=31s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/vU_bw2cSKDg&amp;t=31s</a>

[Dr. Beaker]

I've seen even more impressive drone action at NYE celebrations.

[thejbs]

We should gave fair weight to 50+ marine eye witnesses, not generally known for making themselves look foolish.

And if my theory was correct and this was an American experimental aircraft, would you fly that over a Marine base and not tell anyone?

Also, cool kit if they've got it. Hanging around in mid-air without noticable propulsion? Sweet ride.

Sorry, but… what?!  I get it when you’re extolling the virtues of a physicist or scientist as a witness or investigator, but marines?

[lionel_messias]

Sorry, but… what?!  I get it when you’re extolling the virtues of a physicist or scientist as a witness or investigator, but marines?

😎I knew someone would jump at that. I'm just saying there were 50+ eye witnesses, that's all. Chill factor man. 🧘

[thejbs]

😎I knew someone would jump at that. I'm just saying there were 50+ eye witnesses, that's all. Chill factor man. 🧘

I ‘jumped’ on it because it’s a bit of a mad take. There’s an old joke, what do you call a marine with an iq of 160… a platoon.