Topic: Get out of our country yer gang of fucking bellends. TORIES OUT!

[24/7]

They only did so because Jim was shiny...

Hah, they fuckin hated me there. Feeling was mutual, like. Quite a few blues there too...

[afc tukrish]

Hah, they fuckin hated me there. Feeling was mutual, like. Quite a few blues there too...

The Blues were 1000% bitter...

[24/7]

The Blues were 1000% bitter...

True that.

[TepidT2O]

This account posts anonymous reflections from healthcare officials about just how bad the NHS is



There are worse than this too.

Well worth a read if some of them

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlvDFx8X0AM0VBz?format=jpg&name=small


Frankly it’s terrifying. It’s the most unutterable disgrace. Sunak has these people’s lives crushed in his tiny money grabbing hands 

[west_london_red]

Sunak wants strikers to be law breakers. He still thinks the tories are the party of law and order - he doesn't really want to draw attention to that. Mustn't have been paying attention for the last few years.

It’s the political equivalent of picking up the ball and taking it home because your shit at football. The Tories have lost the argument, public support for striking workers is holding up, so when they can’t stop the strikes by making a fair pay offer or turning the public against striking workers they will just try and ban strikes.

[Jiminy Cricket]

This account posts anonymous reflections from healthcare officials about just how bad the NHS is

There are worse than this too.

Well worth a read if some of them

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlvDFx8X0AM0VBz?format=jpg&name=small

Frankly it’s terrifying. It’s the most unutterable disgrace. Sunak has these people’s lives crushed in his tiny money grabbing hands

Tepid, you appear to have mistakenly used the image address for your link. Do you have the correct link to hand?

[TepidT2O]

Tepid, you appear to have mistakenly used the image address for your link. Do you have the correct link to hand?

sorry….


Here’s a link to another one

https://twitter.com/dr_bellar/status/1611120975030153219?s=61&t=dbkHUqXmVrEgaLRouB0x_A

There’s so many… it’s heart breaking to read….


People have just been broken

[Kenny's Jacket]

Now, I haven’t seen what else he said (or is going to say).  But on its own, I don’t see what the problem with that statement is.

1. There is no substitute for a robust private sector, creating wealth in every community.”. I’m not really sure what the issue is with this.  Do we need strong businesses to employ people?
Yes.
Compare that to the current government ….”fuck business”



There are such structural problems with our public services that chucking money at them won’t ever solve it alone. Root and branch reform is required.  The same with the economy, there are such structural problems caused by brexit that the government has simply ignored that it’s killing us… again, simply chucking money at it isn’t the solution.


So, for me (and as the statement stands) it’s a perfectly sensible statement.  Entirely logical in what it says.  And it’s good politics too.

The  nhs is in Wales under a Labour government is horrific, if hes not going to give Drakeford more money, how is he fixing the nhs in Wales? Cos if hes got a plan, I wish he would have said something to the Labour first minister.

As for the rest of the speech
Pride in British communities - right wing bollocks
Kings Coronation - right wing bollocks
Make Westminister more agile dynamic and Strong - Johnsonesque soundbite bollocks

Frighteningly there was a hint of pfi in his speech 

[Jiminy Cricket]

sorry….


Here’s a link to another one

https://twitter.com/dr_bellar/status/1611120975030153219?s=61&t=dbkHUqXmVrEgaLRouB0x_A

There’s so many… it’s heart breaking to read….


People have just been broken

From where do these quotes originate? Or, is it just random tweets? Where am I supposed to be looking?

Edit: Oh, I see. @Dr_BellaR's timeline:

https://twitter.com/Dr_BellaR

[TepidT2O]

From where do these quotes originate? Or, is it just random tweets? Where am I supposed to be looking?

People send her anonymous comments about their situation …..

She posts them on twitter.

[Jiminy Cricket]

People send her anonymous comments about their situation …..

She posts them on twitter.

Yeah, I realised after I posted. I edited to add a link.

I see that wee Owen Jones is more concerned about purity:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1610947950347227138

[Kenny's Jacket]

Yeah, I realised after I posted. I edited to add a link.

I see that wee Owen Jones is more concerned about purity:

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1610947950347227138

I think hes more concerned with the likelihood of Labour not being able to improve the country as much as we want.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I think hes more concerned with the likelihood of Labour not being able to improve the country as much as we want.

Wee Owen does not wish to see private hospitals/staff/facilities used to help solve the problem being faced right now.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Wee Owen does not wish to see private hospitals/staff/facilities used to help solve the problem being faced right now.

No he doesnt he wrote this. 

Given that the main constraint on clearing the backlog is not operating theatres but consultants, surgeons and anaesthetists, it makes no sense to suggest that the private sector can come to the rescue of the NHS.

There is only one pool of healthcare professionals in the UK and unless that pool expands significantly and quickly, a policy of pushing NHS patients to be treated in the private sector will not make any significant dent in the number of patients waiting to be treated, working class or otherwise.

What pushing more NHS patients to be treated in private hospitals will undoubtedly do is to expose them to a greater risk of harm. Anyone who has followed with horror the Ian Paterson scandal – a surgeon who, for financial reasons, maimed potentially thousands of women mainly in the private hospital sector by telling them they had cancer when they didn’t and then removing their breasts and other internal organs – will have seen how poorly regulated the UK private hospital sector is.

[Jiminy Cricket]

No he doesnt he wrote this. 

Given that the main constraint on clearing the backlog is not operating theatres but consultants, surgeons and anaesthetists, it makes no sense to suggest that the private sector can come to the rescue of the NHS.

There is only one pool of healthcare professionals in the UK and unless that pool expands significantly and quickly, a policy of pushing NHS patients to be treated in the private sector will not make any significant dent in the number of patients waiting to be treated, working class or otherwise.

What pushing more NHS patients to be treated in private hospitals will undoubtedly do is to expose them to a greater risk of harm. Anyone who has followed with horror the Ian Paterson scandal – a surgeon who, for financial reasons, maimed potentially thousands of women mainly in the private hospital sector by telling them they had cancer when they didn’t and then removing their breasts and other internal organs – will have seen how poorly regulated the UK private hospital sector is.

There is spare capacity in the private sector. I don't know how much, but they are clearly not suffering the problems of the NHS as outlined by Dr Bella on Twitter.

PS Where did wee Owen write the sections in bold? Scaremongering shite, surely!?

[Kenny's Jacket]

There is spare capacity in the private sector. I don't know how much, but they are clearly not suffering the problems of the NHS as outlined by Dr Bella on Twitter.

Well if you can prove jones wrong, good for you, but you suggested his objection to Streetings plan was ideological, that doesnt seem to be the case. 
.

[Jiminy Cricket]

The tweet I linked:

Owen Jones
@OwenJones84
The problem is Labour are being sustained by fantasy politics to avoid taking tough decisions - the real tough decision being 'how much should we tax rich people'.

Hence they rely on the nonsense of private hospitals coming to the rescue:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/12/private-hospitals-nhs-labour-wes-streeting-healthcare

[Kenny's Jacket]

The tweet I linked:

Like I said he wrote real specific objections to Streetings plan, they were practical, not ideological

[Jiminy Cricket]

Like I said he wrote real specific objections to Streetings plan, they were practical, not ideological

Well, I'll give them a closer look tomorrow. Partly, for me, it is that Jones (and/or others ideologically close to him) have made comments that have made clear that they prioritise purity of the NHS over tackling a present emergency. I cannot get my head around that kind of thinking.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Well, I'll give them a closer look tomorrow. Partly, for me, it is that Jones (and/or others ideologically close to him) have made comments that have made clear that they prioritise purity of the NHS over tackling a present emergency. I cannot get my head around that kind of thinking.

What has jones said that means he gives prority to purity over practically. It doesnt seem to be anything youve already posted. 

[west_london_red]

Well, I'll give them a closer look tomorrow. Partly, for me, it is that Jones (and/or others ideologically close to him) have made comments that have made clear that they prioritise purity of the NHS over tackling a present emergency. I cannot get my head around that kind of thinking.

I’m no fan of Jones, but the issue with things like Streetings plan is it’s often the thin end of the wedge. I’ve seen it at my own workplace, they bring in a 3rd party to deliver a very specific set of services and it just snowballs into something completely different as more and more is handed over to them (because like most public sector employers we don’t pay enough to fill roles so we outsource entire functions costing even more but getting around our pay restrictions).

[Jiminy Cricket]

I’m no fan of Jones, but the issue with things like Streetings plan is it’s often the thin end of the wedge. I’ve seen it at my own workplace, they bring in a 3rd party to deliver a very specific set of services and it just snowballs into something completely different as more and more is handed over to them (because like most public sector employers we don’t pay enough to fill roles so we outsource entire functions costing even more but getting around our pay restrictions).

The NHS is collapsing right now. I understand the fear of mission creep, but there is a serious national emergency and the only practical short-term solution is to make better use of private healthcare facilities and personnel. The other thing the Government need to do is find a way to attract foreign healthcare workers ASAP, but that will take many months (at least) before it it even begins to make a difference. There really is only one option available, and ruling it out because of fears of what it might lead to in the present circumstances is a poor argument. Elect a Labour Government to make sure that the NHS remains a public service. But let's make the sure the patient is alive to enable them to do this.

[Jiminy Cricket]

What has jones said that means he gives prority to purity over practically. It doesnt seem to be anything youve already posted.

Even in this thread there has been absolute resistance to the proposal that we should use the private sector and as part of a short-term strategy to curtailing the emergency in the NHS.

[Elmo!]

Does he not have a valid point though? If it's true that the bottleneck is the number of staff, and that there is capacity in terms of beds and surgical rooms etc in the private sector, having the NHS us the private sector more is just going to cause more NHS staff to move across to private sector for the better wages, and you won't have any increased capacity, but the NHS will be spending more for all the private sector overheads.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Does he not have a valid point though? If it's true that the bottleneck is the number of staff, and that there is capacity in terms of beds and surgical rooms etc in the private sector, having the NHS us the private sector more is just going to cause more NHS staff to move across to private sector for the better wages, and you won't have any increased capacity, but the NHS will be spending more for all the private sector overheads.

No, he does not have a point. It is transparently the case that staff in the private sector are not remotely as thinly stretched as staff in the NHS - there is spare capacity. The private sector will not like the amount of work they will need to take on, but I say force it upon them through legislation. At the same time, start the process of finding foreign staff. Why do so few people understand the scale of the emergency? If nothing is done, and done right now, it will only get worse.

[Elmo!]

No, he does not a point. It is transparently the case that staff in the private sector are not remotely as thinly stretched as staff in the NHS - there is spare capacity. The private sector will not like the amount of work they will need to take on, but I say force it upon them through legislation. At the same time, start the process of finding foreign staff. Why do so few people understand the scale of the emergency? If nothing is done, and done right now, it will only get worse.

Yes there is spare capacity, because its not in a private businesses interest to have waiting lists, so they recruit enough to make sure they don't. If their workload is increased from work from the NHS. they are going to recruit more to keep those lists down, from a limited labour pool, paying more than the NHS does.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Yes there is spare capacity, because its not in a private businesses interest to have waiting lists, so they recruit enough to make sure they don't. If their workload is increased from work from the NHS. they are going to recruit more to keep those lists down, from a limited labour pool, paying more than the NHS does.

Hi Elmo,

You seem to be missing my point - maybe I was not clear enough. NHS staff are clearly working far harder than their private sector counterparts. Private sector healthcare staff will need to work harder (and be compensated). It is unavoidable if inroads are to be made in the short-term.

[PaulF]

Yes there is spare capacity, because its not in a private businesses interest to have waiting lists, so they recruit enough to make sure they don't. If their workload is increased from work from the NHS. they are going to recruit more to keep those lists down, from a limited labour pool, paying more than the NHS does.

ie sucking yet more staff out of the NHS?
Clearly the opposite needs to happen (assuming his assertion that the operating theatres and beds are there is at least mostly correct), we need to suck staff out of the private sector.  Presumably most of them have gone there because of pay & better staff\patient ratios. So drawing them back by raising salaries is a virtuous circle.  The problem is the private sector can afford to pay more as they can cherry pick the services to deliver.  Bit like why Royal Mail is so hamstrung as they have to deliver letters.

[PaulF]

Hi Elmo,

You seem to be missing my point - maybe I was not clear enough. NHS staff are clearly working far harder than their private sector counterparts. Private sector healthcare staff will need to work harder (and be compensated). It is unavoidable if inroads are to be made in the short-term.

What does 'harder' mean?  I can't imagine the private sector staffs above the minimum required levels. I doubt they have nurses standing around doing nothing (though from my memories some 30 years ago, that often happened in the NHS).

From what we see reported on the NHS now though, nurses are working flat out and unpaid overtime to not even meet the minimum levels we'd want to see.

mini caveat as it sprung to mind. Most of us , I suspect, think of NHS staff as nurses on wards. But there are plenty out in the community and in GP surgeries and other staff, like Physios or OTs.

[Elmo!]

Hi Elmo,

You seem to be missing my point - maybe I was not clear enough. NHS staff are clearly working far harder than their private sector counterparts. Private sector healthcare staff will need to work harder (and be compensated). It is unavoidable if inroads are to be made in the short-term.

It seems like it would just lead to vicious circle though. Private hospitals will always want to keep waiting lists down to zero as people aren't going to pay for private healthcare if there are waiting lists for private care, so the more the NHS uses them, the more they are going to recruit and poach labour from the NHS. Then the NHS will need to use private providers even more, and so on.

[Jiminy Cricket]

What does 'harder' mean?  I can't imagine the private sector staffs above the minimum required levels. I doubt they have nurses standing around doing nothing (though from my memories some 30 years ago, that often happened in the NHS).

From what we see reported on the NHS now though, nurses are working flat out and unpaid overtime to not even meet the minimum levels we'd want to see.

mini caveat as it sprung to mind. Most of us , I suspect, think of NHS staff as nurses on wards. But there are plenty out in the community and in GP surgeries and other staff, like Physios or OTs.

Longer hours. Higher patient to staff ratios - you know, like the NHS. Of course there will be strong push-back, but what's the alternative? I am talking about a short-term measure here. And yes, the private sector and staff will have to be compensated. If this is not done, more staff will leave the NHS (and perhaps healthcare altogether) exacerbating the emergency. Yes, there are some risks to doing this (risks of staff leaving the private sector or leaving healthcare altogether or going abroad), but the risks of not doing are surely greater.

[Jiminy Cricket]

It seems like it would just lead to vicious circle though. Private hospitals will always want to keep waiting lists down to zero as people aren't going to pay for private healthcare if there are waiting lists for private care, so the more the NHS uses them, the more they are going to recruit and poach labour from the NHS. Then the NHS will need to use private providers even more, and so on.

Like I said, as an emergency measure, longer hours and poorer patient to staff ratios for the private sector. They will kick up a stick - pass the necessary legislation to make it happen. Or, do nothing and watch as even more people leave the NHS and it totally collapses.

What do you expect top happen if this is not treated as the emergency it surely is?

[Jiminy Cricket]

ie sucking yet more staff out of the NHS?
Clearly the opposite needs to happen (assuming his assertion that the operating theatres and beds are there is at least mostly correct), we need to suck staff out of the private sector.  Presumably most of them have gone there because of pay & better staff\patient ratios. So drawing them back by raising salaries is a virtuous circle.  The problem is the private sector can afford to pay more as they can cherry pick the services to deliver.  Bit like why Royal Mail is so hamstrung as they have to deliver letters.

The problem is not just one of shortage of staff, but a shortage of facilities too. Instead, use the private sector and their infrastructure.

[Wabaloolah]

Fair point. Nearly all politics I read here. Most voices I know via R4 dead ringers. And it's a surprise when I hear their real voice.  Harder to conceal the crap when it's written. Also agree that Starmer's delivery is woeful. 

I mean, the point I'm making, and it's a good point, is that my point is good.

John Major's delivery was awful, Sunak comes across as boring, Major won against Neil Kinnock who was a brilliant orator. Not sure delivery is necessarily a vote winner these days

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I’m no fan of Jones, but the issue with things like Streetings plan is it’s often the thin end of the wedge. I’ve seen it at my own workplace, they bring in a 3rd party to deliver a very specific set of services and it just snowballs into something completely different as more and more is handed over to them (because like most public sector employers we don’t pay enough to fill roles so we outsource entire functions costing even more but getting around our pay restrictions).

Ok.

The NHS is fucked right now. People are dying. Right now. People are sitting in A&E for 20 hours right now. People are in corridoors for 48 hours before they get a bed (The last two examples are from someone I personally know - he waited 2 days for an ambulance to turn up. He was seriously ill in A&E for 20 hours. He got seen and was on a bed in a corridoor for two days before he got a bed)

This is happening right now.

What's your plan to fix this?

Tory 'rule' has fucked the NHS. Any fix will take years if not decades.

[Wabaloolah]

The cynic in me tells me that this was all part of the Tory plan, destroy the NHS by making it impossible to deliver a competent service. Remember Johnson's bodies piling up in the street comment regarding CoVid. We now have bodies piling up in NHS Corridors, hospitals fit to bursting.

This is exactly what the Tories planned, they are delighted this is happening as it will allow them to, at last, fully privatise the service. They'll claim they are throwing record funding at the NHS but it's not having an impact so we have to privatise

We'll be paying to see GPs again if these fuckers get re-elected. Wankers

[Kenny's Jacket]

Even in this thread there has been absolute resistance to the proposal that we should use the private sector and as part of a short-term strategy to curtailing the emergency in the NHS.

Yes, I think we can conclude given the exchanges youve. had with WLR and Paul that Jones' opposition was not ideological.

[KillieRed]

A General Strike may be required to push for a General Election. Unfortunately I can’t see Labour muddying their hands in such an effort.

[Wabaloolah]

A General Strike may be required to push for a General Election. Unfortunately I can’t see Labour muddying their hands in such an effort.

how exactly would that lead to a General Election?

It's for the TUC to call one anyway isn't it, not Labour

[Yorkykopite]

New legislation in the offing allowing employers to sue trade unions who lawfully go on strike

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64173772

Back to the infamous Taff Vale judgment.

What will be next? Transportation of trade-union activists to Botany Bay?