Topic: Not quite so 'Super' League

[Yorkykopite]

I was wondering if I was about the only person not that arsed about most of this.

I know that the country have been in uproar, the fan groups have been in uproar, the papers have been in uproar, the tv stations have been in uproar, the Government have been in uproar, random celebraties have been in uproar, ex players have been in uproar, football shows have been in uproar and some of my friends have been in uproar.

And fair enough.

But there is plenty of other shit going on in the world at the moment and to be honest, I'm too busy to pay much attention to it all.

Maybe it's getting older or maybe all this stuff happening now puts everything into a little bit of perspective.

Or am alone as being the single un-uproarus-ton on the whole board?

Quite right Andy.

Save your indignation for something really important. Something that affects billions of people all over the globe.

Liked Manchester United's control over all Premier League refs. 

[PeterTheRed ...]

The truth of it is if the traditional clubs could just sort themselves out they could deal with UEFA and FFP weakness quite easily. Just tell UEFA we won’t be playing in any of your competitions or we’ll field kids until you deal with the oil clubs and put in place propped FFP and watch how quickly UEFA move.

It is too late for that now. The pandemic has ruined the traditional big clubs, and the Super League was the last card they had against UEFA and the oil clubs. From now on, the likes of Real Madrid, LFC, Barcelona or Man Utd will play second fiddle to the likes of PSG, Man City, Bayern Munich and Chelsea ...

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Quite right Andy.

Save your indignation for something really important. Something that affects billions of people all over the globe.

Liked Manchester United's control over all Premier League refs. 

You have to pick your annoyances very carefully I find

[FlashGordon]

Of course they will. With the oil clubs now running the show, it is not in their interest to let clubs in the CL baded on past performance ...

And who's fault is it that PSG/Qatar come out of all this with more power to shape the game. I'll give you a clue it, wasn't the fans.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

We're not the only ones who've been calling for their owners to leave after this decision. Spurs and Arsenal fans also have.

So that's an even smaller poll of potential owners,the new owners would also need to be fans because why the fuck would anybody buy us for £2b when they could buy Newcastle or any of the other for relatively little and then use that saved cash to splurge and buy their way to the top.

No FFP.

[DangerScouse]

Quite right Andy.

Save your indignation for something really important. Something that affects billions of people all over the globe.

Liked Manchester United's control over all Premier League refs. 

 

[PeterTheRed ...]

What traditiional clubs are those then?

Real Madrid, LFC, Barcelona, Juventus, Man Utd. They have been hit by the pandemic, and they can no longer compete against the oil clubs + Bayern, thay have their own ties with Qatar, plus the support of the German industry ...

[west_london_red]

What traditiional clubs are those then?

The ones who thought the ESL was a good idea (excluding the oil ones obviously)

[Pistolero]

It is too late for that now. The pandemic has ruined the traditional big clubs, and the Super League was the last card they had against UEFA and the oil clubs. From now on, the likes of Real Madrid, LFC, Barcelona or Man Utd will play second fiddle to the likes of PSG, Man City, Bayern Munich and Chelsea ...

Are you being sponsored to say the words 'oil clubs'?

[PeterTheRed ...]

And who's fault is it that PSG/Qatar come out of all this with more power to shape the game. I'll give you a clue it, wasn't the fans.

Nah, the fans were just a tool in this power struggle. It was the media companies who did the dirty job for the oil clubs, helped by the corrupt UEFA and national football federations ...

[JordanTremenderson]

We're not the only ones who've been calling for their owners to leave after this decision. Spurs and Arsenal fans also have.

I don't care about other clubs though, I'm a LFC fan.

[Dave D]

Good luck with asking Tom Werner to step down from anything. They’ve got to find him first. It’s like trying to find the invisible man at times.

[TepidT2O]

I was wondering if I was about the only person not that arsed about most of this.

I know that the country have been in uproar, the fan groups have been in uproar, the papers have been in uproar, the tv stations have been in uproar, the Government have been in uproar, random celebraties have been in uproar, ex players have been in uproar, football shows have been in uproar and some of my friends have been in uproar.

And fair enough.

But there is plenty of other shit going on in the world at the moment and to be honest, I'm too busy to pay much attention to it all.

Maybe it's getting older or maybe all this stuff happening now puts everything into a little bit of perspective.

Or am alone as being the single un-uproarus-ton on the whole board?

I was never that arsed because I never thought it would actually happen

But arsed in principle

[PeterTheRed ...]

Are you being sponsored to say the words 'oil clubs'?

OK, I will use the term "saviours of the traditional values" from now on 

[Wullie160975]

You know what I don't get?

What did the other clubs use as justification for not wanting to lose us?

We know the real reason, but you would think that other than financially, surely us leaving would give them better competition and better chance of winning things without us if they kicked us out.

[skipper757]

It's not competition in the CL that the twelve clubs wanted to stop.  It's competition for the CL and the value of their teams that they wanted a closed shop.  It's simple:  look at American franchises.  Some of the most terribly run teams in their sports are far more valuable than football clubs:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2020/07/31/the-worlds-most-valuable-sports-teams-2020/?sh=12d91b4b3c74

It's laughable how valuable a team like the New York Knicks are.  Or Washington Football Team with a horrendous owner.

But that's what a closed shop does for you.  A franchise system with no promotion/relegation, salary caps/luxury tax, and controlled purely by billionaire owners.  You take away all downside risk.  You can even get taxpayer-funded stadiums or threaten to move (local funding for stadiums happen in Europe too but it's in that club's city, not a move away).

A more closed Super League does two things:
-Guarantees a massive chunk of revenue from TV deals (guaranteed entry into the Super League every year)
-A group of owners decide on spending caps (no more UEFA losing to Man City in court)

These things would make a club like Liverpool far more valuable than it is today.  It would also prevent teams like Real and Barcelona getting into further debt trying to compete with Abu Dhabi, Qatar, and soon to be Saudi Arabia.  Set the rules of a closed shop.

The owners aren't worried about Atalanta or Leipzig in the Champions League.  I doubt Florentino Perez's concern is that Real Madrid don't win the CL enough.

They care about how to make their clubs more valuable and to rein in the likes of Man City and PSG while they're at it.  Some of the most valuable teams in American sports never win anything, but it doesn't stop them from being valuable.  The twelve clubs that pushed the ESL would still win of course, but Spurs value would've gone through the roof in the ESL even if they never win it.

The one equation these owners ignored:  the supporters.  Oops.

Sound plan otherwise though.  Certainly looks great on a spreadsheet or a future Forbes magazine article.

[67CherryRed]

I don't remember all this anger for Jack Walker when Blackburn (fucking BLACKBURN!) bought the league.

The overriding feeling I get from so many of these posts is that people are jealous of their bottomless pit of money and they wish it was us.

[FlashGordon]

Nah, the fans were just a tool in this power struggle. It was the media companies who did the dirty job for the oil clubs, helped by the corrupt UEFA and national football federations ...

No take a look closer to home Peter. It was the absolutely idiotic way the traditional clubs went about things and lost any soft power they had.

[PeterTheRed ...]

I was wondering if I was about the only person not that arsed about most of this.

I know that the country have been in uproar, the fan groups have been in uproar, the papers have been in uproar, the tv stations have been in uproar, the Government have been in uproar, random celebraties have been in uproar, ex players have been in uproar, football shows have been in uproar and some of my friends have been in uproar.

And fair enough.

But there is plenty of other shit going on in the world at the moment and to be honest, I'm too busy to pay much attention to it all.

Maybe it's getting older or maybe all this stuff happening now puts everything into a little bit of perspective.

Or am alone as being the single un-uproarus-ton on the whole board?

You are probably right, mate ...

Maybe it is time to step away a bit from the game where Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, UEFA, the PL, Sky Sports, PSG, Man City and Chelsea are the good guys. Everything is so distorted. At the same time, people are still duying in large numbers, and the lucky ones are left without jobs and income.

I hope that you are all safe and in good health. Take care of yourselves, since this plague is far from over. Just the other day I have lost a close friend (and a LFC supporter), and he was only 48. See you in some match thread, and of course in the transfer thread. Have a good night 

[lamad]

To be honest, that is not true. The Super League would have had 15 permanent clubs, and 5 clubs qualifying for it every season. Even in the group stages of Champions League you don't have 25% new clubs every season ...

You either really don't get it or you are in here for a wind up.

[mickeydocs]

Unfortunately, no one will bother listening to them. The fans were "important" until UEFA, the PL and the oil clubs win the war against the traditional big clubs. Now that they control everything, the fans are no longer important ...

Where is this proof that they now control everything?

[So… Howard Philips]

I don't remember all this anger for Jack Walker when Blackburn (fucking BLACKBURN!) bought the league.

The overriding feeling I get from so many of these posts is that people are jealous of their bottomless pit of money and they wish it was us.

Was the internet even invented then?

[Yorkykopite]

I don't remember all this anger for Jack Walker when Blackburn (fucking BLACKBURN!) bought the league.

Didn't Kenny have something to do with that?

[Billy Elliot]

The Moores family changed the landscape in the 60's. The way the oligopolists have now changed it, isn't that different really.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Or am alone as being the single un-uproarus-ton on the whole board?

You're not alone.

Hasn't bothered me in the slightest

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm trying to form the Tooting National Anti-Referee 7th army


We were going to be an 8th Army, but Jim had to go home and have his tea

[blert596]

You're not alone.

Hasn't bothered me in the slightest

Yeah same here. Been funny watching all these politicians, owners of the uninvited, celebs, ex players going purple in the face about how much they love soccer :-)

[Rush 82]

I was wondering if I was about the only person not that arsed about most of this.

I know that the country have been in uproar, the fan groups have been in uproar, the papers have been in uproar, the tv stations have been in uproar, the Government have been in uproar, random celebraties have been in uproar, ex players have been in uproar, football shows have been in uproar and some of my friends have been in uproar.

And fair enough.

But there is plenty of other shit going on in the world at the moment and to be honest, I'm too busy to pay much attention to it all.

Maybe it's getting older or maybe all this stuff happening now puts everything into a little bit of perspective.

Or am alone as being the single un-uproarus-ton on the whole board?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

You are probably right, mate ...

Maybe it is time to step away a bit from the game where Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, UEFA, the PL, Sky Sports, PSG, Man City and Chelsea are the good guys. Everything is so distorted. At the same time, people are still duying in large numbers, and the lucky ones are left without jobs and income.

I hope that you are all safe and in good health. Take care of yourselves, since this plague is far from over. Just the other day I have lost a close friend (and a LFC supporter), and he was only 48. See you in some match thread, and of course in the transfer thread. Have a good night 

Sorry to hear that mate.

There are a lot of good people who are no longer with us.

[lamad]

There's a couple on Bundesliga clubs that totally ignore it too, Hoffenheim & Leipzig, who are widely despised in Germany & boycotted by away fans when they have home matches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSG_1899_Hoffenheim#Controversy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Leipzig#Membership

Hoffenheim and Leipzig are two completely different cases, something that in their hotheadedness many in Germany unfortunately ignore. One has a selfmade billionaire guy (and at least we are talking software here instead of oil or dictatorship) pumping money into a club he himself has played for as a kid and which is located in his home town. The other has a ruthless global brand taking over a football club licence effectively creating a new club with the sole aim to earn money and push the brand.
You can criticise what Hopp has done with Hoffenheim and how he has done it, but please do not lump him in with Red Bull Leipzig.

[So… Howard Philips]

The Moores family changed the landscape in the 60's. The way the oligopolists have now changed it, isn't that different really.

That's a fact often forgotten that one of the richest families in the UK enabled Shankly to buy St John and Yeats.

I like your use of 'oligopolists' but I would prefer us to be owned by a plutocrat or have they gone out of fashion?

[FlashGordon]

You are probably right, mate ...

Maybe it is time to step away a bit from the game where Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, UEFA, the PL, Sky Sports, PSG, Man City and Chelsea are the good guys. Everything is so distorted. At the same time, people are still duying in large numbers, and the lucky ones are left without jobs and income.

I hope that you are all safe and in good health. Take care of yourselves, since this plague is far from over. Just the other day I have lost a close friend (and a LFC supporter), and he was only 48. See you in some match thread, and of course in the transfer thread. Have a good night 

Sorry to hear that Peter.

RIP to your friend.

[Son of Spion]

But the thing is they have done this, so is it that bad because we have and we do have a World Class LFC team, a new training ground, new stand and another on the way. Is it all bad compaired to what may come in to replace them?

And again i want more that a Video apology to get the sour taste of this out f my mouth but FSG are not going anywhere anytime soon i feel.

Of course it's not all bad. Far from it actually. I've also said a number of times in other posts that very few people/organisations in the world can afford us, and none of them will have accrued that financial clout by being nice and principled. Whoever eventually replaces FSG could well be far worse.

[Skeeve]

I don't remember all this anger for Jack Walker when Blackburn (fucking BLACKBURN!) bought the league.

The overriding feeling I get from so many of these posts is that people are jealous of their bottomless pit of money and they wish it was us.

They probably got a bit of a pass due to Kenny and it was a fan bankrolling his home club too, but any club that has bought trophies has been criticised, the reason that there is more for the likes of City and PSG nowadays is the sheer scale of their spending, the way they have got away with the blatant flouting of ffp and the dodginess of the owners.

[lamad]

Yet German football has massive fan following both in stadiums (when allowed!), and on tv, its one of the most popular leagues around, has been for years, and likely still will be for years.  I honestly think too much is thought of the ‘Bayern’ problem. Maybe its cos we are Liverpool fans and expect to be competing at the top. Most fans don't care anywhere near as much. From a German football perspective, I dont’ give a shit, I support a team (Mainz) who are never going to be challenging at the top. I barely watch Bayern, they don’t interest me.

Not too far from Mainz where I am, they are a fun and cool club to support (complete with all the ups and downs a traditional football club has). And it is true, most Germans who follow Bundesliga football, from afar or close, at this point have resigned to the idea that Bayern most of the time will win the league. Is it ideal for the Bundesliga? No. Even my Bayern supporting dad thinks that someone else should win it now and again (or at least that it should be a super close race until the last day of the season and then Bayern wins it, lol). However, it doesn't kill it either: there are enough interesting teams and their fans to make it worthwhile, and the really exciting questions are who will get into CL and Euro League, who will be relegated and who will be promoted (the second Bundesliga actually is quite fun to watch too, the smallish local team I have ties to plays there). I also barely watch Bayern, but will happily check out Mainz vs Frankfurt or Darmstadt vs St. Pauli!

[Mighty_Red]

We've been through the hoop of fan ownership once before and it's just not going to happen.

Whilst people are discussing the German model on mainstream platforms like the BBC, I think we have the best chance of getting somewhere with this.

As you say, getting a fan ownership model going would be difficult from a financial and governance perspective, but this is where we should be more innovative and not be held be absolute aims.

For example, we know FSG are open to investment - they have sold 10% to Red Bird. Why couldn't they offer say 20% of Liverpool in shares which could be offered to fans? It could allow a nominated representative to sit on the board and help make decisions. If that person had power of veto over a limited set of decisions (e.g. plans to move the club, change its name, loading debt, etc) then it would still allow owners to run the club with their expertise just under tighter regulations where they need consensus before driving major change.

Of course, we use to have ordinary fans as shareholders under Moores and as far as I can remember they didn't have too much power but they could make their case heard at AGMs.

[Dim Glas]

Not too far from Mainz where I am, they are a fun and cool club to support (complete with all the ups and downs a traditional football club has). And it is true, most Germans who follow Bundesliga football, from afar or close, at this point have resigned to the idea that Bayern most of the time will win the league. Is it ideal for the Bundesliga? No. Even my Bayern supporting dad thinks that someone else should win it now and again (or at least that it should be a super close race until the last day of the season and then Bayern wins it, lol). However, it doesn't kill it either: there are enough interesting teams and their fans to make it worthwhile, and the really exciting questions are who will get into CL and Euro League, who will be relegated and who will be promoted (the second Bundesliga actually is quite fun to watch too, the smallish local team I have ties to plays there). I also barely watch Bayern, but will happily check out Mainz vs Frankfurt or Darmstadt vs St. Pauli!

that’s exactly how I see it too, there is always something going on! Right now there is the relegation battle for the ages going on which of course is holding most of my interest. Second Bundesliga is also fun too you are right, I catch a few games here and there. It’s one of the least predicatble leagues around, impossible to figure it out most of the time!

[Son of Spion]

I wonder if they share a scriptwriter.

Glazer.

"We failed to show enough respect for its deep-rooted traditions," Glazer said in an open letter to fans.

The 50-year-old admitted efforts "in seeking to create a more stable foundation for the game" did not honour the conventions of promotion and relegation within the wider football pyramid.

"For that we are sorry," he said. "This is the world's greatest football club and we apologise unreservedly for the unrest caused during these past few days.

"Manchester United has a rich heritage and we recognise our responsibility to live up to its great traditions and values."

Glazer said they will work to "rebuild relationships" across football "with a view to working together on solutions to the long-term challenges facing the football pyramid".

"We also realise that we need to better communicate with you, our fans, because you will always be at the heart of the club," he continued.

Henry.

I want to apologise to all the fans and supporters of Liverpool Football Club for the disruption I caused over the past 48 hours.

It goes without saying but should be said that the project put forward was never going to stand without the support of the fans. No-one ever thought differently in England. Over these 48 hours you were very clear that it would not stand. We heard you. I heard you.

And I want to apologise to Jürgen, to Billy, to the players and to everyone who works so hard at LFC to make our fans proud. They have absolutely no responsibility for this disruption. They were the most disrupted and unfairly so. This is what hurts most. They love your club and work to make you proud every single day.

I know the entire LFC team has the expertise, leadership and passion necessary to rebuild trust and help us move forward. More than a decade ago when we signed up for the challenges associated with football, we dreamed of what you dreamed of. And we’ve worked hard to improve your club. Our work isn’t done. And I hope you’ll understand that even when we make mistakes, we’re trying to work in your club’s best interests. In this endeavour I’ve let you down.

Again, I’m sorry, and I alone am responsible for the unnecessary negativity brought forward over the past couple of days. It’s something I won’t forget. And shows the power the fans have today and will rightly continue to have.

If there’s one thing this horrible pandemic has clearly shown, it’s how crucial fans are to our sport and to every sport. It’s shown in every empty stadium. It’s been an incredibly tough year for all of us; virtually no-one unaffected. It’s important that the Liverpool football family remains intact, vital and committed to what we’ve seen from you globally, with local gestures of kindness and support. I can promise you I will do whatever I can to further that.

Thanks for listening.

Apologies for picking out such a tiny fraction of your post, Al.

It's just that this particular line has been said a few times by those who were looking to form this freakshow league, and it really bugs me.

I know that pretty much every business on the planet bar funeral services has been hit by the pandemic, but pandemic aside, football is a business absolutely drowning in money. We have had recent talk of the first million quid a week footballer. The money raked in by the game is absolutely staggering. Average journeyman players are living in million quid mansions and driving Lamborghinis. Wage bills and agents fees are astronomical.

We've heard it said that this ESL plan was about ''saving the game.'' But saving it from who and what? If the game is in trouble, it's an inside job. If the game needs saving, it needs saving from those currently running it. The wealth is there, but how it's used and distributed is all wrong. Those running the show need to start looking towards themselves if they want to ''save the game.'' Like I said, football is drowning in money. It has everything it needs to have stability and sustainability. It just chooses to carry on with this utterly insane race towards self-destruction.

[lamad]

As I said in my other post, we just went 30 long years without winning the league but we at least had a chance on a few occasions so that keeps people (well me anyway) hooked. When it becomes an virtual impossibility then I am not sure that interest would remain.

But you support your club regardless? I mean there are teams who never have and never will compete for a big title, or any title really, and everyone knows it, but they still have supporters who are ecstatic about a derby win after six losses or a win against a way better opposition team?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Whilst people are discussing the German model on mainstream platforms like the BBC, I think we have the best chance of getting somewhere with this.

As you say, getting a fan ownership model going would be difficult from a financial and governance perspective, but this is where we should be more innovative and not be held be absolute aims.

For example, we know FSG are open to investment - they have sold 10% to Red Bird. Why couldn't they offer say 20% of Liverpool in shares which could be offered to fans? It could allow a nominated representative to sit on the board and help make decisions. If that person had power of veto over a limited set of decisions (e.g. plans to move the club, change its name, loading debt, etc) then it would still allow owners to run the club with their expertise just under tighter regulations where they need consensus before driving major change.

Of course, we use to have ordinary fans as shareholders under Moores and as far as I can remember they didn't have too much power but they could make their case heard at AGMs.

They could and probably would but that would be close to £400m and if we couldn't raise enough to buy us before FSG there's not much chance of us raising even more now.