Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Burnley ‘83 Barnes (p)

[BJ]

Not sure it's about confidence either. Maybe it can manifest into that the more bad result. We are league champions, champions league winners 2 seasons ago and were on the back of hammering crystal Palace 7 0.

It's down to physical and mental tiredness. The decline in the quality of our decision making is a sure sign of that I feel. Minds are just not working quick enough, reactions are off, etc.

I agree about the mental tiredness, not sure about physical tiredness , maybe there’s an appearance of physical tiredness because of mental tiredness resulting from performances that haven’t been brilliant.  It’s amazing how tiredness drains away when  things are going well.  You also have to question why would our players be more physically and mentally tired than others.

This is just our slump. A slump is unquantifiable, so it’s a mystery how you enter one and a mystery how you get out.  City and Utd have both had theirs.  This one will end soon.  Keep the faith.

[Clayton Bigsby]

I gave up on this one a long time ago. For some reason those never get given. If the striker has got the shot off, then he's fair game. If a defender follows through with an attempted block it's just seems as part of the passage of play. Very odd, but its always the same.

The Barnes pens get given almost every time. Although I'm not sure Salah would have got it!

Pretty sure Utd got a penalty for this last season in Europe. Might have been Rashford. Shoots, gets taken out afterwards, pen awarded

Not having that Barnes was as a penalty either, but what can you do

[redbyrdz]

Every cross Trent etc put in was either floated over and picked off by Pope or played towards the 18 yard line. Nothing went across the goal line behind the defenders.
And as you said, the lack of one-twos is blindingly obvious. We never, ever overlap / underlap the fullbacks.

It's a system thing. It's not a Klopp way of playing. The only clear chance we had last night was Origi and that was old school Klopp -- pressure on the defender forcing a mistake after they lost the ball.
To his credit, Origi forced two saves and hit the bar in the first half. It's no coincidence that these came from us on the counter after they were attacking us and lost the ball.

So part of the answer is us trusting ourselves to let the opposition have the ball more when our own Plan A isn't working.

Teams parking the bus is a compliment. The extreme versions we've seen in the last half dozen games is actually testament to how good we are. Even the better teams are terrified to play us toe to toe.

Unfortunately we have been slow to adapt to this by giving up possession and forcing the opposition to play and open the game up.

Maybe also due to being worried about our defense.  With van Dijk in there, and Fab in front of him  the rest of the lads know they can relax. With our make-shift defense, they think, better not let the opposition have the ball.

[Fromola]

That Origi chance could’ve dropped to anyone in the squad and the result would’ve been the same.

Did anyone actually think he'd score? Especially having so much time think about it. I was actually surprised how well he actually hit it. It was unlucky.

To be fair, the one positive from the game was Origi looked sharper than he has in a long time, but he needed that goal. That miss, combined with being hauled off again stops him building any of the momentum he's lost over the last 12 months.

[El Lobo]

Maybe also due to being worried about our defense.  With van Dijk in there, and Fab in front of him  the rest of the lads know they can relax. With our make-shift defense, they think, better not let the opposition have the ball.

We definitely need another CB and it is impacting the play, but I do think its being used as a bit of an excuse too much. Trent and Robbo have both been pretty wasteful recently with their crosses/shots and there's no way its down to worrying about the centre of defence

[telekon]

I like that you can get a penalty by consciously tripping over a goalie and not having that reviewed by VAR.

[Lofty Ambitions]

Unlucky. Never a penalty. Half a season to fight back. Onwards.

Bummed.

 

[telekon]

Did anyone actually think he'd score? Especially having so much time think about it. I was actually surprised how well he actually hit it. It was unlucky.

To be fair, the one positive from the game was Origi looked sharper than he has in a long time, but he needed that goal. That miss, combined with being hauled off again stops him building any of the momentum he's lost over the last 12 months.

Didn't think he'd score, it's "too much time". Also he got the ball controlled in a really weird way: take another touch and it's too close so he took the shot which was uncomfortably far away.

Love Big Div. Should have gotten more play time.

[[new username under construction]]

Did anyone actually think he'd score? Especially having so much time think about it. I was actually surprised how well he actually hit it. It was unlucky.

Fell to him and experienced exactly zero excitement

[Bangin Them In]

Did anyone actually think he'd score? Especially having so much time think about it. I was actually surprised how well he actually hit it. It was unlucky.

To be fair, the one positive from the game was Origi looked sharper than he has in a long time, but he needed that goal. That miss, combined with being hauled off again stops him building any of the momentum he's lost over the last 12 months.

I thought so too, Origi certainly didn't perform any worse than others have recently, I'd start and stick with him for a whole game Sunday

[HomesickRed]

Maybe also due to being worried about our defense.  With van Dijk in there, and Fab in front of him  the rest of the lads know they can relax. With our make-shift defense, they think, better not let the opposition have the ball.

Conceding goals is not our problem though. Worries about the defence would therefore seem to be misplaced.
We had 6 shots on target last night.
3 of them were fashioned from our 72% possession --- roughly one every 22 minutes.
Burnley had 28% possession and from nicking the ball off them, we had 3 shots on target --- roughly one every 8 minutes.

Each time we were 3 v 3, or 4 v 4 and they were good quality chances we should have made count. And that excludes Origi hitting the bar.

People need to realise what other teams in the PL have done already: we are a far more effective unit out of possession than in possession.
It's not really burnout, or loss of form. It's the system we play and the fact that we stick to it far too long even when it's obviously not working.

It's the opposite of the Firminho song. At times our motto should be "Give them the ball and we will score".

[stockdam]

Is the problem partly indirectly due to the way we play?

We are really good at keeping the ball and winning it back.

Hence we push teams deeper and deeper into their own half and eventually they end up with 6 or so in their own area where it becomes very hard to get a decent shot away.

If teams try to play out then we’re great at getting the ball back.

So the result is that teams have to defend deep and get rid of the ball quickly. We are very good at counter-attacking but we rarely get the chance to do so.

I have no idea how we lost to Villa though.

Do we need to “give” the ball away more? Or throw Matip and Phillips forward into the penalty area? Things just aren’t working and Klopp needs to find an answer quickly.

[norecat]

I think the loss of VVD is massive. He had such a transformational effect on the side when he came in. We have been unlucky to suffer injuries to both Matip and Gomez at the same time though the former does seem injury prone. Not buying a replacement for Lovren was a mistake. Signing Jota made sense as we needed to improve our firepower both in the event of injuries and to not make any forward feel their place in the side was a given.
If the league is lost, this season, let it be a chance or motivation to reflect on how we do things. We have been very smart in the last 4 years in the transfer market. But sometimes you can maybe be too smart for your own good. We arguably should have bought in a better quality backup to Alisson. We definitely should have replaced Lovren. Was Thiago what we really needed and at his age?

This season is disappointing but we have had an amazing couple of seasons. I have great faith in JK and I hope that the board back him when/if he asks for it.

[Samio]

It's baffling if you keep comparing our current form to the form we displayed over the past 2 and a half years

It's not so baffling when you step back and accept that form is cyclic. All teams go through poor patches of form. We're not exempt from that

The fact that it has taken this long for us to finally dip is pretty phenomenal in the grand scheme of things

And that's all there is to it really. Hyper analyse and over think it all you like, but that's the long and short of it

Some people take this game way to seriously

I mean. I would argue that we have dipped since the return of football after COVID to be honest.

85% win ratio in the 68 games before COVID.

50% win ratio in the 28 games after/during COVID.

Always bound to drop off from that mad win ratio but only winning half of our games since the restart is not good.

Our PPG since last years COVID restart isn’t good enough for Top 4 most seasons.

[Fromola]

Is the problem partly indirectly due to the way we play?

We are really good at keeping the ball and winning it back.

Hence we push teams deeper and deeper into their own half and eventually they end up with 6 or so in their own area where it becomes very hard to get a decent shot away.

If teams try to play out then we’re great at getting the ball back.

So the result is that teams have to defend deep and get rid of the ball quickly. We are very good at counter-attacking but we rarely get the chance to do so.

I have no idea how we lost to Villa though.

Do we need to “give” the ball away more? Or throw Matip and Phillips forward into the penalty area? Things just aren’t working and Klopp needs to find an answer quickly.

Teams don't need to play out though. One hoof over the top and they're clean through.  We've become a lot easier to create good chances against but find it increasingly difficult to create any of our own, despite having the majority of the ball. That's a big problem.

[killer-heels]

Teams don't need to play out though. One hoof over the top and they're clean through.

Not any more. We have tightened up considerably.

[Fromola]

Not any more. We have tightened up considerably.

Burnley still got in a few times (one of the worst teams in the league going forward). Newcastle and WBA a couple of times, but neither had any interest in attacking anyway.

United created more good chances than we did and we dominated much of the play. Spurs had 3 or 4 guilt edged chances despite barely being in the game.

[killer-heels]

Burnley still got in a few times (one of the worst teams in the league going forward). Newcastle and WBA a couple of times, but neither had any interest in attacking anyway.

United created more good chances than we did and we dominated much of the play.

Burnely didnt fashion a good chance, thats the key thing no matter how many times they got in behind Trent. I have said we have dropped off a cliff defensively this season in terms of big chances but we have tightened up considerably.

United got a few lucky chances with no centrebacks on the field.

We are doing well, setting up well and getting to the final third and the box. Its then where its turning to shite.

[Fromola]

Burnely didnt fashion a good chance, thats the key thing no matter how many times they got in behind Trent. I have said we have dropped off a cliff defensively this season in terms of big chances but we have tightened up considerably.

United got a few lucky chances with no centrebacks on the field.

We are doing well, setting up well and getting to the final third and the box. Its then where its turning to shite.

It's fair to say we've tightened up from earlier in the season but everything teams have hit were going in. Leeds had 3 shots on the opening day, for example, and scored them all, and only half chances, yet against everyone else they can't finish for shit. We had to act after the Villa monstrosity to tighten up.

Earlier in the season though teams were fancying their chances and taking the game to us more, thus creating chances. Since we battered Palace - who also played very open - teams have gone ultra-defensive instead and thus create very little because they're camped in their own area.

[Ratboy3G]

I thought so too, Origi certainly didn't perform any worse than others have recently, I'd start and stick with him for a whole game Sunday

I'd start Div on Sunday as well, despite the miss he did more than a few other forwards last night.

[Fromola]

I'd start Div on Sunday as well, despite the miss he did more than a few other forwards last night.

I thought his performance in the first half was as lively as we've seen from any of the forwards since Palace, which says it all really.

One of the things the team was lacking is leadership. Take out Van Dijk, Henderson and Milner from the pitch and there isn't a great deal of leaders/talkers in the side. They seemed to be feeling sorry for themselves last night. Even if they're off their game Hendo and Milner never let their heads drop.  We picked a more creative team because we haven't been scoring or creating enough either, but it may have been a net benefit having Milner in the side, or even coming on for Trent who was having a terrible game.

[LFCEmpire]

Thank fuck we won the league last year, it still warms my heart.

[Trim0582]

I remember the early days under Klopp, the heavy metal football, we could win 4 or 5 nil, or draw 3 all or lose 3 nil and that's Kopp. That is what I love about him. His first season in charge was my favourite, there were no expectations, but I feel we have become more conservative, so many crosses and long balls. I feel the weight of expectation has change the way we play. I didn't watch the Burnley, but I watched the previous 4 and it was frustrating, long balls into no where, crosses into box lapped up by defenders.

It feels to me restricted, limiting and predictable, we have no threat from a long shot, like Coutinho to a degree, or Suarez, but certainly Gerrard, if you have someone who can score from 30 yards they need closing down  and it creates space. To be fair I don't like losing but I'm not that concerned, we need a rebuild. We got a title ffs, when FSG took over that was a pipe dream, when Kopp came on board it seemed unlikely. Gone are the days of a club being flawless every year. Even Man City can't do it and look at their spending.

Our front 3 are struggling, they may need changing, or rotating, we are not conceding many but the goals have dried up. It is no longer an aberration our form has dropped, but we got the league for the first league title in 30 years.

Maybe we need to rebuild too many midfielders and not enough cover or competition upfront maybe? I don't know. I love football but I will never pretend to know what I am talking about.

All I would say from an amateur perspective is that defence hasn't let us down. Maybe moving players out of position has caused issues further up field, but what worries me is how profligate we are. How many chances do we need to score compared to other teams.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

We aren't conceding many goals because the entire side is playing with a handbrake in order to prevent that from happening.

[Red_Mist]

I remember the early days under Kopp, the heavy metal football, we could win 4 or 5 nil, or draw 3 all or lose 3 nil and that's Kopp. That is what I love about him. His first season in charge was my favourite, there were no expectations, but I feel we have become more conservative, so many crosses and long balls. I feel the weight of expectation ha change the way we play. I didn't watch the Burnley, but I watched the previous 4 and it was frustrating, long balls into no where, crosses into vox lapped up by defenders. It feels to me restricted, limiting and predictable, we have no threat from a long shot, like Counting to a degree, or Suarez, but certainly Gerrard, if you have someone who can score from 30 yards they need closing down  and it creates space. To be fair I don't like losing but I'm not that concerned, we need a rebuild. We got a title ffs, when FSG took over that was a pipe dream, when Kopp came on board it seemed unlikely. Gone are the days of a club being flawless every year. Even Man City can't do it and look at their spending. Our front 3 are struggling, they may need changing, or rotating, we are not conceding many but the goals have dried up. It is no longer an aberration our form has dropped, but we got the league for the first league title in 30 years.
Maybe we need to rebuild too many midfielders and not enough cover or competition upfront maybe? I don't know. I love football but I will never pretend to know what I am talking about. All I would say from an amateur perspective is that defence hasn't let us down. Maybe moving players out of position has caused issues further up field, but what worries me is how profligate we. How many chances do we need to score compared to other teams.

Good old Kopp. He’s briiant isn’t he, I ove him.

[Trim0582]

Good old Kopp. He’s briiant isn’t he, I ove him.

Was typing on my phone!

[Red_Mist]

Was typing on my phone!

sorry mate

[johnybarnes]

https://twitter.com/MaddockMirror/status/1352745355541147650

[Trim0582]

We aren't conceding many goals because the entire side is playing with a handbrake in order to prevent that from happening.

I think it is individual brilliance that is missing, so many goals are from great team play and build up play, but at times you just need a player, such as Suarez that can score from the half way line, that is an extreme example, but so many of his goals were unpredictable. We are a team and when we click we are formidable, but sometimes you need one player that can score a goal from nothing and I don't know who that player is in this side at the moment.

[Trim0582]

He’s still the best manager in the league, with a squad containing some of the best players in the world.

Can I add that the second part of that sentence is largely due to his coaching. So we can be sure if anyone can fix it or find the diamond in the rought, it is Klopp.

[killer-heels]

Can I add that the second part of that sentence is largely due to his coaching. So we can be sure if anyone can fix it or find the diamond in the rought, it is Klopp.

Yes but the players we have are excellent. It’s not just Klopp on his own.

[Trim0582]

Yes but the players we have are excellent. It’s not just Klopp on his own.

Oh absolutely agree, but he has improved several beyond what anyone dreamed possible. My point being if needed, he could do it again.

We should be expecting more from this squad as they are now though.

[kasperoff]

https://twitter.com/MaddockMirror/status/1352745355541147650

Glad that's been cleared up. The notion he would have been OK with what we have it ludicrous and the fact that we've had to play Fabino at CB as long as we have is just insane. The fact that we weren't willing to spend some money at the start of this month to potentially fortify a title tilt bothers me. I know money is tight, but league titles are rocking horse shit.

[Son of Spion]

Low, hard, quick driven crosses to the near post with well-timed runs from our strikers to ping a first-time shot. Any deflections pounced upon with a first time shot or pass to someone in a better position. The key is to do everything quicker. We seem to have given up on first-time shots or passes in and around the box. Stop trying to score the perfect goal and just force the ball home from a deflection or force an own goal. Dithering on the ball and floaty crosses allow the low block to stay organized and compact. As I would say to my boy, "just get stuck in lad"

I think there is a lot in what you say here. A packed box can look like a daunting prospect to get through, but it's also deflection central. So many bodies and legs trying to get in your way means that, yes, they will block some of your efforts, but it's also a bit of a nightmare for the defending side when it comes to deflections and having the 'keeper unsighted. I remember years back when Arsenal tried to always create the aesthetically perfect goal. They wanted to play ballet and then walk it into the net. Sometimes, I feel we are similar.

Of course, in order to cause havoc in their box, we have to actually have some shots rather than playing pretty patterns in front of them. Having 75%+ possession in every game means nothing if we don't get shots off on the opposition goal. I know our luck has been diabolical recently and it's as though there is cling film across the opposition goal, but we just aren't getting enough efforts actually on goal. The turnaround for us could easily come from a shitty deflection that goes in rather than going wide as it has been doing recently.

Another thing that baffles me is why we don't run straight at their defenders when they are packed in the box. OK, I'm not a professional footballer, but I've have many a kickabout in my time. Defenders absolutely hate you tearing towards them in their own box. It puts the shits up them because you could get through, but even if you don't, the defender has to be extremely careful not to stick a leg out and concede a penalty.

To quote an old song from the Kop, you have to ''Get into 'em.'' Get amongst them and cause some havoc.

Anyway, I'm just some clown on a keyboard, and I'm sure Klopp and his staff are on this and will sort it out. Like the sea, the tide has ebbed for us recently, but it always turns again. It will for us too.

[Red_Mist]

Yep ^^^ Against these packed defences I’d like to see us shoot from distance a bit more. I know that seems like a cop out in a way and could be frustrating to watch, but sometimes it forces a deflection or creates a rebound and some panic. Just something to disrupt the opponents discipline. Just occasionally mix it up a bit, stop passing it round or crossing it in and lash one at the keeper (or preferably just to the side of him!). Been fairly shot shy of late.

[telekon]

Yep ^^^ Against these packed defences I’d like to see us shoot from distance a bit more. I know that seems like a cop out in a way and could be frustrating to watch, but sometimes it forces a deflection or creates a rebound and some panic. Just something to disrupt the opponents discipline. Just occasionally mix it up a bit, stop passing it round or crossing it in and lash one at the keeper (or preferably just to the side of him!). Been fairly shot shy of late.

I remember Aurelio doing exactly that, the match and our attack being stale as fuck and he'd just hit a low drilled cross. You'd get a corner or a good bounce, worst case scenario you'd lose possession but against a team like Burnley that's no matter as they don't attack in numbers anyway so you'd get the ball back.

[Son of Spion]

Yep ^^^ Against these packed defences I’d like to see us shoot from distance a bit more. I know that seems like a cop out in a way and could be frustrating to watch, but sometimes it forces a deflection or creates a rebound and some panic. Just something to disrupt the opponents discipline. Just occasionally mix it up a bit, stop passing it round or crossing it in and lash one at the keeper (or preferably just to the side of him!). Been fairly shot shy of late.

I don't even see it as a cop-out. You nailed it in the rest of your post. It's about mixing it up. About unpredictability and, at times, pragmatism. When in a fix, you sometimes have to simply do what works, rather than keep trying what is not working. Mixing it up gives the opposition more to think about.

It's great when everything we hit goes in (see Palace away) but that's put the shits up everyone now, so they are going to sit in and hope they can hoof one over the top themselves to a runner, blag a penalty or get something from a set-piece. When we have the ball we clearly need to mix it up, at least until we dig ourselves out of this rut. We need to create some panic in their box, a bit of pinball where the opposition potentially stick one in their own net via a deflection or trip one of ours who is running at them. It won't matter if the goal that finally breaks this poor run hits nine of them in their box before it trickles in. They all count (well, unless VAR steps in). 

[lgvkarlos]

We aren't conceding many goals because the entire side is playing with a handbrake in order to prevent that from happening.

Looks that way, none of our midfield seem to be makining runs beyond the strikers.
It's all safe and slow, we desperately need a CB with pace to release that handbrake.

[kasperoff]

Pretty sure Utd got a penalty for this last season in Europe. Might have been Rashford. Shoots, gets taken out afterwards, pen awarded

Not having that Barnes was as a penalty either, but what can you do

Did he roll around on the floor clutching his shin afterwards?

[irfaanfr]

poor performance from the team