Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Burnley ‘83 Barnes (p)

[Fromola]

I remember Aurelio doing exactly that, the match and our attack being stale as fuck and he'd just hit a low drilled cross. You'd get a corner or a good bounce, worst case scenario you'd lose possession but against a team like Burnley that's no matter as they don't attack in numbers anyway so you'd get the ball back.

And when we get a corner you just sigh anyway now. It hits the first man (especially if it's a short corner) or goes straight to the keeper or easily cleared.

We've no presence in the box attacking the ball anymore from set pieces and the crosses are just food and drink for defenders. We need dynamic midfielders running at defenders, like Wijnaldum did once.

[Clint Eastwood]

The penalty was always going to be given. It wasn’t like the Brighton one which was an absolute farce. However the incident was identical to a situation that happened with Mane earlier on, where he blasted over but was taken out right after. I wasn’t expecting a penalty then but they are pretty much the same situation. It’s just shit luck really.

[Red Sky at Night]

The penalty was always going to be given. It wasn’t like the Brighton one which was an absolute farce. However the incident was identical to a situation that happened with Mane earlier on, where he blasted over but was taken out right after. I wasn’t expecting a penalty then but they are pretty much the same situation. It’s just shit luck really.

An annoying thing with the Mane incident is that if that same challenge on him was in the centre circle, it's odds on that a free kick would have been given and possibly a yellow card for a poor late challenge.

Fouls in the penalty area seem to have a whole set of separate rules of what is classed as a foul.

Refs are scared of giving penalties which is infuriating (a foul is a foul, anywhere on the pitch!)

[Paul_h]

Extra shooting practice needed, for everyone.
Ideally, at the end of training when you are knackered

[Red Sky at Night]

Extra shooting practice needed, for everyone.
Ideally, at the end of training when you are knackered

Definitely.

What's worrying though is the lack of opportunities to shoot at goal.

So, in addition to shooting practice we need concentration on pass and move around the box. I'd have a simple rule - never cross into the box when the cross isn't directly aimed at a specific head. Speculative crosses are banned ;-)

[decosabute]

I thought so too, Origi certainly didn't perform any worse than others have recently, I'd start and stick with him for a whole game Sunday

I actually agree with this, and I'm saying that as someone who thinks Origi has been beyond shite for the best part of 18 months.

He should've scored, absolutely no getting away from it, but he looked the most likely player to make something happen for us on the night. Salah and Mane seem to have decided they're going to camp on the corners of the opposition box (or wider) and Firmino is just a mile off it in every department. At least Origi was trying to drop a shoulder, create a yard and get a shot off.

It says a lot that it's come to this, but I wouldn't mind seeing him get more opportunities the next couple of weeks til Jota is back.

[liverbloke]

I actually agree with this, and I'm saying that as someone who thinks Origi has been beyond shite for the best part of 18 months.

He should've scored, absolutely no getting away from it, but he looked the most likely player to make something happen for us on the night. Salah and Mane seem to have decided they're going to camp on the corners of the opposition box (or wider) and Firmino is just a mile off it in every department. At least Origi was trying to drop a shoulder, create a yard and get a shot off.

It says a lot that it's come to this, but I wouldn't mind seeing him get more opportunities the next couple of weeks til Jota is back.

yeh but only off the bench

[Fromola]

Definitely.

What's worrying though is the lack of opportunities to shoot at goal.

So, in addition to shooting practice we need concentration on pass and move around the box. I'd have a simple rule - never cross into the box when the cross isn't directly aimed at a specific head. Speculative crosses are banned ;-)

Finishing isn't the issue if you can't fashion a decent chance. Salah was unlucky with the one Pope made a good save on, he couldn't hit that much better.

In the last 4 league games we've basically created maybe 1 or 2 good chances in each game which were either well saved or hit the bar. There was one against United where Firmino needed to get more on it.

We do just need to put our foot through the ball at times and get a decent shot away, but it's not being able to create anything against a deep defence that's the problem.

[Clint Eastwood]

Definitely.

What's worrying though is the lack of opportunities to shoot at goal.

So, in addition to shooting practice we need concentration on pass and move around the box. I'd have a simple rule - never cross into the box when the cross isn't directly aimed at a specific head. Speculative crosses are banned ;-)

Against Burnley we had plenty of chances. Origi hit two straight at the keeper and one against the bar. Firmino sliced one wide and a tame one that was blocked easily. Salah had a couple of opportunities he put too close to the keeper. We had a free kick in a brilliant area that we tried some shite routine at and Trent skied it.

That free kick was a joke. It was the most optimistic I’ve been about us scoring in ages, with Shaqiri standing over it, and we did that.

[Timbo's Goals]

Finishing isn't the issue if you can't fashion a decent chance. Salah was unlucky with the one Pope made a good save on, he couldn't hit that much better.

In the last 4 league games we've basically created maybe 1 or 2 good chances in each game which were either well saved or hit the bar. There was one against United where Firmino needed to get more on it.

We do just need to put our foot through the ball at times and get a decent shot away, but it's not being able to create anything against a deep defence that's the problem.

Absolutely - or certainly at least not being able to create very much at all in the way of clear cut opportunities with that Origi cameo being such a rare exception just now. Even the only one we have managed to successfully convert in these past four games - Sadio's against West Brom - took incredible skill and cobra-like execution from Sadio to get that net bulging. And what makes it even more difficult is that each of these massed defences is full of defenders defending as if their lives depended on a clean sheet, putting their bodies on the line to make blocks, tackles and interceptions time and time again. At the same time the composure of our players at the vital moments to deliver a slide rule pass/cross or connect sweetly and perfectly with their shots seems to have temporarily deserted us.

Not a great time, indeed. We'll be back soon though. 

[Ghost Town]

Thing is we have been coached to play a certain way with certain patterns of play and it has been extremely successful for a long time. To change that will take time and decision - first for the coaches to decide it really is necessary to change - that the old way really is not going to work, either anymore or for the time being. And secondly for the players to get the new ways of playing into their legs.

Klopp has said many times that a footballer *thinking* in the moment is a problem; it's a point of delay and blockage; the thinking has to be done beforehand and then in the moment they need to *feel* it and act on the instinct built into them by training. At the moment the players are going through the patterns that have worked before, patiently and unchangingly, but with a massive loss of confidence and form.

They haven't had much training time; hopefully they are now putting the time they do have to good use to vary their patterns and try new ways of playing - including, maybe, running with the ball, running at the man, taking more shots or whatever other solutions are being proposed here (if the manager agrees). But it will take a bit of time to come through. We'll just have to be patient.

[Eeyore]

Against Burnley we had plenty of chances. Origi hit two straight at the keeper and one against the bar. Firmino sliced one wide and a tame one that was blocked easily. Salah had a couple of opportunities he put too close to the keeper. We had a free kick in a brilliant area that we tried some shite routine at and Trent skied it.

That free kick was a joke. It was the most optimistic I’ve been about us scoring in ages, with Shaqiri standing over it, and we did that.

That free kick was in a pretty poor position. It was almost impossible to get the ball up and down because it was so close. The wall didn't need to jump, so you couldn't go underneath. That leaves you two options.

You either try and beat the keeper on his side which is almost impossible, or you shift the ball and create a better angle.

Trent did nothing wrong the ball was rolled way too far.   

[free_at_last]

An annoying thing with the Mane incident is that if that same challenge on him was in the centre circle, it's odds on that a free kick would have been given and possibly a yellow card for a poor late challenge.

Fouls in the penalty area seem to have a whole set of separate rules of what is classed as a foul.

Refs are scared of giving penalties which is infuriating (a foul is a foul, anywhere on the pitch!)

I feel like I'm living in some Alice in Wonderland universe - did nobody see the handball after the ball travelled a long way?
We all thought that  VAR was going to redress the balance(remember the season that Spurs got more penalties at Anfield than Liverpool) but it has reinforced the imbalance,

[Red Sky at Night]

I feel like I'm living in some Alice in Wonderland universe - did nobody see the handball after the ball travelled a long way?
We all thought that  VAR was going to redress the balance(remember the season that Spurs got more penalties at Anfield than Liverpool) but it has reinforced the imbalance,

The VAR involvement only when there is a 'clear and obvious error' seems as subjective as anything... anyone's guess how that can work consistently

And as annoying is the time wasting of linos not raising their flag for offside until about 20 minutes after the event. Burnley did that several times especially in the first half, and it just eats up minutes

[Eeyore]

I don't understand the notion that it is somehow easy to break down a packed defence and that we should be racking up masses of clear-cut chances. Burnley is a perfect example. They basically defended their 18 yard box. They allowed us to get it wide and cross but doubled up as soon as we tried to dribble in to the box.

They have one of the best shot stoppers in the game, so they are quite happy to not push out to stop shots from distance and rely on blocks or Pope. If teams do not push out and basically have 8 or 9 players inside their box then it is really difficult to open them up. In previous seasons we have said fine, you defend your box we will attack get numerous set pieces and the let Virgil attack the ball a dozen times a game.

For me that has been the biggest change this season.

Then we have the City don't have trouble breaking teams down argument. We had posters on here saying that it was okay for City to get two ridiculous decisions to break the deadlock and beat Villa. Allegedly City battered them and should have won by four or five.

Well in that game according to under stat City had an xG of 3.34. Which sounds good until you realize that .76 of that was for the ridiculous penalty. So none penalty xG is 2.58. Even so an xG of 2.58 must indicate that City played slick football and created numerous chances from open play. That isn't true though. The biggest none penalty chance was Stones at .68 from a corner.

Indeed, in that game including subs De Bruyne/Jesus had a combined xG for the 90 minutes of .22 and Sterling/Mahrez  had a combined xG of 0.18.

That doesn't sound like City carving Villa up and creating chances for their attacking players.

Then look at City v Palace in which City won 4-0 with an xG of .96. Or look at how City faired against sides who packed their box and looked to defend deep and counter they had an xG of 1.16 against Southampton ours was 1.37. Or how about United theirs was 1.28 ours was 1.20.

Personally I think it is a bit of a myth that City create far more chances than we do. They are just finishing a lot more chances than we are but then again is that surprising. They actually have centre backs, so they have an aerial threat. They have a bench full of hugely expensive attacking talent and probably the big one they are getting crucial decisions go in their favour.

[Eeyore]

The VAR involvement only when there is a 'clear and obvious error' seems as subjective as anything... anyone's guess how that can work consistently

And as annoying is the time wasting of linos not raising their flag for offside until about 20 minutes after the event. Burnley did that several times especially in the first half, and it just eats up minutes

What is even more annoying is letting the play go for 30 or 40 seconds AND then only blowing up when we are on the counter.

[Crosby Nick]

The handball penalty shout, barely saw a replay of it so can’t be sure. Did it hit his hand directly or did he deflect it into his hand himself?

[free_at_last]

The handball penalty shout, barely saw a replay of it so can’t be sure. Did it hit his hand directly or did he deflect it into his hand himself?

I don't know, Normally they would show us a replay but some decisions are not meant for public consumption.

[HomesickRed]

The handball penalty shout, barely saw a replay of it so can’t be sure. Did it hit his hand directly or did he deflect it into his hand himself?

I didn't think it was a pen although it was only shown from one angle which was unusual. Grasping at straws though.

[killer-heels]

I don't understand the notion that it is somehow easy to break down a packed defence and that we should be racking up masses of clear-cut chances. Burnley is a perfect example. They basically defended their 18 yard box. They allowed us to get it wide and cross but doubled up as soon as we tried to dribble in to the box.

They have one of the best shot stoppers in the game, so they are quite happy to not push out to stop shots from distance and rely on blocks or Pope. If teams do not push out and basically have 8 or 9 players inside their box then it is really difficult to open them up. In previous seasons we have said fine, you defend your box we will attack get numerous set pieces and the let Virgil attack the ball a dozen times a game.

For me that has been the biggest change this season.

Then we have the City don't have trouble breaking teams down argument. We had posters on here saying that it was okay for City to get two ridiculous decisions to break the deadlock and beat Villa. Allegedly City battered them and should have won by four or five.

Well in that game according to under stat City had an xG of 3.34. Which sounds good until you realize that .76 of that was for the ridiculous penalty. So none penalty xG is 2.58. Even so an xG of 2.58 must indicate that City played slick football and created numerous chances from open play. That isn't true though. The biggest none penalty chance was Stones at .68 from a corner.

Indeed, in that game including subs De Bruyne/Jesus had a combined xG for the 90 minutes of .22 and Sterling/Mahrez  had a combined xG of 0.18.

That doesn't sound like City carving Villa up and creating chances for their attacking players.

Then look at City v Palace in which City won 4-0 with an xG of .96. Or look at how City faired against sides who packed their box and looked to defend deep and counter they had an xG of 1.16 against Southampton ours was 1.37. Or how about United theirs was 1.28 ours was 1.20.

Personally I think it is a bit of a myth that City create far more chances than we do. They are just finishing a lot more chances than we are but then again is that surprising. They actually have centre backs, so they have an aerial threat. They have a bench full of hugely expensive attacking talent and probably the big one they are getting crucial decisions go in their favour.

Without getting all statty, because I still don’t really understand that, how does our xG compare this season?

Also isn’t it dangerous to start excluding corners from xG?

[HomesickRed]

Absolutely - or certainly at least not being able to create very much at all in the way of clear cut opportunities with that Origi cameo being such a rare exception just now. Even the only one we have managed to successfully convert in these past four games - Sadio's against West Brom - took incredible skill and cobra-like execution from Sadio to get that net bulging. And what makes it even more difficult is that each of these massed defences is full of defenders defending as if their lives depended on a clean sheet, putting their bodies on the line to make blocks, tackles and interceptions time and time again. At the same time the composure of our players at the vital moments to deliver a slide rule pass/cross or connect sweetly and perfectly with their shots seems to have temporarily deserted us.

Not a great time, indeed. We'll be back soon though. 

Five games and only one world class goal from Mane is a shocking return.
Some blame can be apportioned to bad luck / poor decision-making but the rest is systematic.
We bang our heads against a brick wall of packed defences when the vast majority of our chances, and most of the better ones, come from us stealing the ball when the opposition have the ball.
The solution is staring us in the face!

[oojason]

The handball penalty shout, barely saw a replay of it so can’t be sure. Did it hit his hand directly or did he deflect it into his hand himself?

Directly onto his arm (though his arm was near his side when the ball hit it? With his arm moving outwards after contact with the ball? - around 8 seconds into the video):-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/mfu4OQ3wIuo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/mfu4OQ3wIuo</a>

^ you may want to turn down the volume or mute it (the music is there so Sky can't easily track the content down and get it removed as they usually do)


Months ago Sky & BT would have been all over footage like this - with replays from multiple angles and repeated slo-mo replays... there has been a definite shift away from that of late...

[Fazak_Red]

I know the conspiracy theorists won't admit it, but they would all fume if that was given as a pen against us.

[free_at_last]

I know the conspiracy theorists won't admit it, but they would all fume if that was given as a pen against us.

OK - I'll bite. It WAS given against us(Gomez at man city).
Once again, these decisions are debatable but why do we not get a replay on TV so we can judge if we are getting screwed(see also manu and wba). It smacks of a guilty conscience.

[stockdam]

yeh but only off the bench

I’d prefer to see him starting. Give him a chance to see if he can bring a new variation to the attack and remind Firmino that he needs to perform better.

Origi has been trying to be direct and take a shot. One of them will either fly in or be deflected in.

[RK7]

I know the conspiracy theorists won't admit it, but they would all fume if that was given as a pen against us.

Yep, not a chance that should be given as handball.

[Ratboy3G]

I’d prefer to see him starting. Give him a chance to see if he can bring a new variation to the attack and remind Firmino that he needs to perform better.

Origi has been trying to be direct and take a shot. One of them will either fly in or be deflected in.

Same here, I thought that he looked dangerous against Burnley and was at least trying to run at them and get a shot away. I'd start him tomorrow with Salah and Mané.

[Ratboy3G]

Yep, not a chance that should be given as handball.

I disagree, I think that should be a penalty as he's blocked a cross with his arm. I'd say the same if it was against us.

[rob1966]

OK - I'll bite. It WAS given against us(Gomez at man city).
Once again, these decisions are debatable but why do we not get a replay on TV so we can judge if we are getting screwed(see also manu and wba). It smacks of a guilty conscience.

1min 18 secs

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/sK3ElUjUBdA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/sK3ElUjUBdA</a>

[free_at_last]

I disagree, I think that should be a penalty as he's blocked a cross with his arm. I'd say the same if it was against us.

Once again, it's not whether it was a penalty or not .  I would like to see what the VAR offficial is basing his decision on but for some reason they say "VAR check is complete" but don't give us a TV replay(see also WBA and manu).

[jambutty]

So part of the answer is us trusting ourselves to let the opposition have the ball more when our own Plan A isn't working.

Teams parking the bus is a compliment. The extreme versions we've seen in the last half dozen games is actually testament to how good we are. Even the better teams are terrified to play us toe to toe.

Unfortunately we have been slow to adapt to this by giving up possession and forcing the opposition to play and open the game up.

I coach youth teams.  Sometimes we give lesser teams awkward possession.  Dump the ball to the flag, guard the lines and lick our lips at what's coming across the middle.

It's a decent Plan B.

[free_at_last]

Yep, not a chance that should be given as handball.

Unless it's for manu

[HomesickRed]

1min 18 secs

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/sK3ElUjUBdA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/sK3ElUjUBdA</a>

That hit Gomez's lower arm and we felt aggrieved because he was trying to get his arm out of the way.
The other hit the upper arm of the Burnley defender, close to his body. It may have then glanced off his hand, to nobody's advantage.
Inconsistent maybe, but two wrongs don't make a right. It wasn't a pen. Get over it.

[free_at_last]

Five games and only one world class goal from Mane is a shocking return.
Some blame can be apportioned to bad luck / poor decision-making but the rest is systematic.
We bang our heads against a brick wall of packed defences when the vast majority of our chances, and most of the better ones, come from us stealing the ball when the opposition have the ball.
The solution is staring us in the face!
That hit Gomez's lower arm and we felt aggrieved because he was trying to get his arm out of the way.
The other hit the upper arm of the Burnley defender, close to his body. It may have then glanced off his hand, to nobody's advantage.
Inconsistent maybe, but two wrongs don't make a right. It wasn't a pen. Get over it.

Did you see a replay of that incident? As I mentioned, it's not about whether it's a penalty or not. I would like to see a replay(as is normal).
If they just say "VAR check complete" I am not going to accept that after the dubious calls we have endured all season.
"Get over it" ? - whose side are you on?

[Eeyore]

Without getting all statty, because I still don’t really understand that, how does our xG compare this season?

Also isn’t it dangerous to start excluding corners from xG?

The point is that there seems to be a myth that we should be breaking packed defences down from open play. When how difficult that is gets explained then posters often bring up City and how they have little problem playing through packed defences. In that instance I think it is perfectly fair to exclude corners.

[Eeyore]

I know the conspiracy theorists won't admit it, but they would all fume if that was given as a pen against us.

Can't give it as a penalty.



After all their Keeper Ben Mee had the cross covered.

[Red Sky at Night]

Did you see a replay of that incident? As I mentioned, it's not about whether it's a penalty or not. I would like to see a replay(as is normal).
If they just say "VAR check complete" I am not going to accept that after the dubious calls we have endured all season.
"Get over it" ? - whose side are you on?

I've a lot of sympathy for your view here. VAR needs to show transparency in its decision making, otherwise it just adds to confusion.

I'm not a fan of VAR for so many reasons, a prime one being that it states it only calls out a 'clear and obvious error' from the ref. That's fair enough in principle, but look at Mane's last minute disallowed goal at Goodison - it took VAR several minutes to come up with a decision, and the result was Mane was a millionth of a cm offside - how on earth was that a clear and obvious error, sufficient enough to over rule the ref? if it was that obvious VAR would have made their decision  in 10 seconds (as they did with the Burnley 'hand ball')...

[BJ]

I think it is individual brilliance that is missing, so many goals are from great team play and build up play, but at times you just need a player, such as Suarez that can score from the half way line, that is an extreme example, but so many of his goals were unpredictable. We are a team and when we click we are formidable, but sometimes you need one player that can score a goal from nothing and I don't know who that player is in this side at the moment.

It looks like they’re all on an assist incentivised contract atm - ‘after you, no after you’ - instead of taking the shot themselves.  The opposite is also true with no-hoper shots being taken, some coming down with snow on them.  There’s a balance that just needs to be found.

[RedSince86]

I've a lot of sympathy for your view here. VAR needs to show transparency in its decision making, otherwise it just adds to confusion.

I'm not a fan of VAR for so many reasons, a prime one being that it states it only calls out a 'clear and obvious error' from the ref. That's fair enough in principle, but look at Mane's last minute disallowed goal at Goodison - it took VAR several minutes to come up with a decision, and the result was Mane was a millionth of a cm offside - how on earth was that a clear and obvious error, sufficient enough to over rule the ref? if it was that obvious VAR would have made their decision  in 10 seconds (as they did with the Burnley 'hand ball')...

And then there is the David Coote rules on reffing.

[killer-heels]

The point is that there seems to be a myth that we should be breaking packed defences down from open play. When how difficult that is gets explained then posters often bring up City and how they have little problem playing through packed defences. In that instance I think it is perfectly fair to exclude corners.

But maybe we do? Last season there were still numerous examples of us pressing and getting a turnover. This season people are just sitting back and not really interested in pressing nor interested in keeping the ball.

Basically kick it long down the channels and get pacy players to chase. No messing about keeping the ball at the back.