Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Those prosecuted for toppling the Colston statue found not guilty.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/edward-colston-blm-protesters-found-not-guilty-of-criminal-damage-after-toppling-bristol-slave-trader-statue/ar-AASsIYP

good

[So… Howard Philips]

good

The problem is where do you draw the line?

The statue should have been placed in a museum and used to detail what he and others of his ilk did.

I'm not too sure of its current status but hopefully it's put to some constructive use and not simply hidden away in a store room.

[thejbs]

The problem is where do you draw the line?

The statue should have been placed in a museum and used to detail what he and others of his ilk did.

I'm not too sure of its current status but hopefully it's put to some constructive use and not simply hidden away in a store room.

The statue was displayed in a museum, complete with graffiti. They’ve even preserved some of the placards displayed. I’d say thats a historical story to be proud of.

[west_london_red]

Not sure this is a good thing or not. What happens when some right wing cretin decides he doesn’t like a statue of something and decides to tear it down? Have they potentially been given a get out of jail free card? (not that I am suggesting these guys should be put in jail or anything like that)

[So… Howard Philips]

The statue was displayed in a museum, complete with graffiti. They’ve even preserved some of the placards displayed. I’d say thats a historical story to be proud of.

As long as it is being shown with a full history of what Colston did and not just as an event from one day last summer.

[Wabaloolah]

Not sure this is a good thing or not. What happens when some right wing cretin decides he doesn’t like a statue of something and decides to tear it down? Have they potentially been given a get out of jail free card? (not that I am suggesting these guys should be put in jail or anything like that)

that's a fair point, whichever way this is dressed up it is still criminal damage. There's a statue of Nye Bevan at the top of Queen's Street in Cardiff.

If some right wing anti-vax nutjobs decided to pull that down and chuck it in the Taff there would correctly be outrage.

This potentially opens up a whole can of worms

[Lusty]

Not sure this is a good thing or not. What happens when some right wing cretin decides he doesn’t like a statue of something and decides to tear it down? Have they potentially been given a get out of jail free card? (not that I am suggesting these guys should be put in jail or anything like that)

I don't think it really has any impact on any other case.  From what I read, the act of tearing down the statue was clearing illegal, but because the statue was so unpopular in Bristol they were never going to be able to find a jury in that city who would convict.  Seems like quite an elegant way out.

[12C]

that's a fair point, whichever way this is dressed up it is still criminal damage. There's a statue of Nye Bevan at the top of Queen's Street in Cardiff.

If some right wing anti-vax nutjobs decided to pull that down and chuck it in the Taff there would correctly be outrage.

This potentially opens up a whole can of worms

Nah mate. To the far right “all statues matter”.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Should have been found guilty but spared prison by the judge, in my opinion. That would have been understandable given how unpopular that statue was and the legal efforts taken to amend the statue (put a plaque explaining his deeds) that were rejected time and time again.

[Lusty]

Should have been found guilty but spared prison by the judge, in my opinion. That would have been understandable given how unpopular that statue was and the legal efforts taken to amend the statue (put a plaque explaining his deeds) that were rejected time and time again.

That would have meant a judge making a unilateral decision to interfere with the rule of law.  I think that really would set a dangerous precedent.

Far better that a cross section of the people of Bristol vote to acquit.  It's one of the advantages of having jury trials in the first place that they can do this sort of thing.

[Clayton Bigsby]

That would have meant a judge making a unilateral decision to interfere with the rule of law.  I think that really would set a dangerous precedent.

Far better that a cross section of the people of Bristol vote to acquit.  It's one of the advantages of having jury trials in the first place that they can do this sort of thing.

Criminal damage doesn't necessarily come with a prison sentence but I take your point

[lobsterboy]

that's a fair point, whichever way this is dressed up it is still criminal damage. There's a statue of Nye Bevan at the top of Queen's Street in Cardiff.

If some right wing anti-vax nutjobs decided to pull that down and chuck it in the Taff there would correctly be outrage.

This potentially opens up a whole can of worms

They'd also face a trial by jury though. Isn't that how its supposed to work?

This was a trial by jury and the jury made their decision based on the evidence presented.
Justice in action. Both sides had a chance to present their case fairly in court and it appears the defendants was better argued or more more valid. No grounds for complaining really.
The statue was obviously unpopular but there had been establishment resistance to the general public opinion in the area that it should be removed/changed.


We really shouldn't have statues of slaver traders anywhere in the UK these days. They aren't people to celebrate or admire regardless of what else they did.

[Sheer Magnetism]

That is true but also irrelevant - they were guilty. If I get a posse together and we go out hunting and killing registered sex offenders, a jury might also refuse to convict me, but I would still be guilty and should face the consequences. It's why the law needs to be blind in order to work.

[lobsterboy]

That is true but also irrelevant - they were guilty. If I get a posse together and we go out hunting and killing registered sex offenders, a jury might also refuse to convict me, but I would still be guilty and should face the consequences. It's why the law needs to be blind in order to work.

So you remove a jury and leave a judge to decide? No room for nuance or argument? Seems pretty totalitarian. I know we are heading that way as a nation but are you seriously happy to accelerate it over a statue of a slaver.
Also toppling a rather unpopular statue is very different to committing a murder.
A jury might refuse to convict in any case but usually because there is doubt or not enough evidence. It can also go the other way but its still the fairest option we have.

[Sheer Magnetism]

But there clearly was enough evidence in this case, and you can't claim self defence or impoverishment the way you could with other crimes where a jury could deliberate. That's where the distinction lies for me - why is it otherwise necessary to have a jury in a criminal damage/vandalism case? They certainly aren't used in the vast majority of those cases:

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/when-are-juries-used/

[So… Howard Philips]

But there clearly was enough evidence in this case, and you can't claim self defence or impoverishment the way you could with other crimes where a jury could deliberate. That's where the distinction lies for me - why is it otherwise necessary to have a jury in a criminal damage/vandalism case? They certainly aren't used in the vast majority of those cases:

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/when-are-juries-used/

The maximum penalty is ten years imprisonment so it is triable either way, so the defendants can opt for a jury trial at Crown Court.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/criminal-damage

[lobsterboy]

But there clearly was enough evidence in this case, and you can't claim self defence or impoverishment the way you could with other crimes where a jury could deliberate. That's where the distinction lies for me - why is it otherwise necessary to have a jury in a criminal damage/vandalism case? They certainly aren't used in the vast majority of those cases:

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/when-are-juries-used/

But this case had a jury and they disagreed with the evidence. Justice served for me.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Sure, because you agree with the motives of the people who pulled down the statue. Maybe next time the criminals will be on the other side of the political divide and you'll feel differently when they get away with right-wing political vandalism.

[Jshooters]

Sure, because you agree with the motives of the people who pulled down the statue. Maybe next time the criminals will be on the other side of the political divide and you'll feel differently when they get away with right-wing political vandalism.

You mean like how the current government are running/ruining the country?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

 

Whats happened to Rees-Mogg?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59893024

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Whats happened to Rees-Mogg?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59893024

He cashed in on Brexit and now doesn't give a fuck.

[lobsterboy]

Sure, because you agree with the motives of the people who pulled down the statue. Maybe next time the criminals will be on the other side of the political divide and you'll feel differently when they get away with right-wing political vandalism.

I never said I agree with the motives. I don't actually think destroying property is correct.
I said I felt that justice was carried out correctly though. Both sides had their opportunity in court and the jury made their decision. My opinons and feelings hold no sway on the outcome.

However maybe the establishment should perhaps listen to people when they say they find a statue offensive though, especially when enough of them are saying it?

[Wilmo]

The problem is where do you draw the line?

The statue should have been placed in a museum and used to detail what he and others of his ilk did.

I'm not too sure of its current status but hopefully it's put to some constructive use and not simply hidden away in a store room.

There is a danger of venerating history to the degree that you prevent it from happening.

[So… Howard Philips]

There is a danger of venerating history to the degree that you prevent it from happening.

Where did I give any indication of 'venerating' Colston?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The problem is where do you draw the line?

The statue should have been placed in a museum and used to detail what he and others of his ilk did.

I'm not too sure of its current status but hopefully it's put to some constructive use and not simply hidden away in a store room.

I've been saying that for years or at the very least replace the plaques with ones that make their history clear to all.

[So… Howard Philips]

I've been saying that for years or at the very least replace the plaques with ones that make their history clear to all.

Colston's statue should have been in a museum years ago.

And Bristol has a museum containing a small exhibition on slavery (unlike the comprehensive display at the Liverpool Maritime) so maybe Colston and all his works could have enlarged that exhibition.
https://www.iknow-uk.com/articles/bristol-museums

[John C]

Colston's statue should have been in a museum years ago.

I agree and I think it would have been an easy campaign to win locally, with national input, without reverting to breaking the law and testing the justice system. As you and others have said, where would it end. It's not voting rights they were fighting for.

[killer-heels]

I agree and I think it would have been an easy campaign to win locally, with national input, without reverting to breaking the law and testing the justice system. As you and others have said, where would it end. It's not voting rights they were fighting for.

Didn't they try to have it removed on a number of occasions?

[Wild Romany Boy]

Didn't they try to have it removed on a number of occasions?

Yeah, it's been going on for years and years and years.

Whatever it was going to be, removing it was never going to be easy through the proper channels. Furthest thing from it.

[Nobby Reserve]

A Superb dissection of the legal issues and argument that the defence made - and The Secret Barrister is brilliant anyway:

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/01/06/do-the-verdicts-in-the-trial-of-the-colston-4-signal-something-wrong-with-our-jury-system-10-things-you-should-know/

[Jshooters]

A Superb dissection of the legal issues and argument that the defence made - and The Secret Barrister is brilliant anyway:

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/01/06/do-the-verdicts-in-the-trial-of-the-colston-4-signal-something-wrong-with-our-jury-system-10-things-you-should-know/

Yes and yes

[Red-Soldier]

Attorney general ‘considering’ referring Colston statue case to appeal court

Suella Braverman says she is thinking about unusual move, after Tory outcry over protesters’ acquittal

The attorney general has said she is “carefully considering” whether to refer the Colston statue case to the court of appeal after a jury cleared four protesters of criminal damage over the toppling of the monument.

Suella Braverman announced she was contemplating what would be a highly unusual move after an outcry from Conservative MPs following the jury’s verdict on Wednesday. The former cabinet minister Robert Jenrick suggested the rule of law had been undermined, while Tom Hunt, a vice-chair of the parliamentary Common Sense Group, said he was “deeply concerned by the precedent set here”, despite jury decisions not setting legal precedents.

Writing on Twitter on Friday, Braverman said: “Trial by jury is an important guardian of liberty and must not be undermined. However, the decision in the Colston statue case is causing confusion.

“Without affecting the result of this case, as attorney general, I am able to refer matters to the court of appeal so that senior judges have the opportunity to clarify the law for future cases. I am carefully considering whether to do so.”

If the case does go to the court of appeal, the judges will not be able to rule on whether the jury’s decision was correct, only on whether there was an error in law in the directions that were given to the jury.

Juries have an absolute right to acquit, which they have exercised in the past for protesters against climate change and military action, even when defendants have admitted causing disruption or damage.

People who have used, grown or supplied cannabis for the purposes of alleviating pain have also been acquitted by juries in the past, as was Clive Ponting, a senior Ministry of Defence official, in 1985, who was tried under the Official Secrets Act for revealing to an MP that government ministers had misled parliament over the sinking of the Argentinian warship General Belgrano during the Falklands war.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/07/attorney-general-considering-referring-colston-statue-case-to-appeal-court

[So… Howard Philips]

Yeah, it's been going on for years and years and years.

Whatever it was going to be, removing it was never going to be easy through the proper channels. Furthest thing from it.

Tower Hamleys were able to remove a similar statue is a few days,

https://www.cityam.com/tower-hamlets-removes-docklands-statue-of-slave-trader/

Bearing in mind the vast majority of councillors on Bristol Council are Labour or Green (48 in total compared to 14 Tories) and the elected Mayor is Labour you have to wonder if they didn't have the necessary powers to remove the statue or lacked the political will.

[12C]

Attorney general ‘considering’ referring Colston statue case to appeal court

Suella Braverman says she is thinking about unusual move, after Tory outcry over protesters’ acquittal

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/07/attorney-general-considering-referring-colston-statue-case-to-appeal-court

But I thought the will of the people was sacrosanct?

[Wild Romany Boy]

Tower Hamleys were able to remove a similar statue is a few days,

https://www.cityam.com/tower-hamlets-removes-docklands-statue-of-slave-trader/

Bearing in mind the vast majority of councillors on Bristol Council are Labour or Green (48 in total compared to 14 Tories) and the elected Mayor is Labour you have to wonder if they didn't have the necessary powers to remove the statue or lacked the political will.

Unfortunately, perhaps more than any other city in England, Bristol has been less than keen to confront the issue of its past:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/how-city-failed-remove-edward-4211771.amp

Tower Hamlets is a very different kettle of fish.

[John C]

Didn't they try to have it removed on a number of occasions?

I honestly don't know K, but I reckon the next time would have been easier. Of course, not that it should take the murder of a guy in another continent to persuade authorities.

[So… Howard Philips]

Unfortunately, perhaps more than any other city in England, Bristol has been less than keen to confront the issue of its past:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/how-city-failed-remove-edward-4211771.amp

Tower Hamlets is a very different kettle of fish.

That was an interesting read but didn't explain why a majority of progressive Councillors didn't take any steps to remove the statue.

I know the slavery section in Liverpool is in the National Maritime Museum but, from memory, the Museum of Liverpool life also addresses slavery and the City's colonial past.

However I'm sure they could do more.

[Wild Romany Boy]

That was an interesting read but didn't explain why a majority of progressive Councillors didn't take any steps to remove the statue.

I know the slavery section in Liverpool is in the National Maritime Museum but, from memory, the Museum of Liverpool life also addresses slavery and the City's colonial past.

However I'm sure they could do more.

to be honest, I have my theories for that but I haven't done anything like the research needed for it to be more than hot air. I'm not sure that every last avenue was exhausted, but I also think that it was right to topple it.

There are some proper historians here who will give that level of insight, I'm always going to be slightly askew from those who wanted those channels pursued further.

Wish I had learnt this history in school, rather than the Basingstoke Canal (much as I enjoyed it at the time)

[TSC]

Ahmaud Arbery’s killers get life

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/ahmaud-arbery-killing-mcmichael-bryan-sentencing/index.html

[BarryCrocker]

Ahmaud Arbery’s killers get life

https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/ahmaud-arbery-killing-mcmichael-bryan-sentencing/index.html

Thank God.