Topic: Anfield Road Extension

[Redric1970]

Given that each seat will probably cost North of £10,000 to build, go figure...

Sorry to be a pain Peter I’ve just been reading some of the bits on skyscraper city and know some of the figures are plucked from the sky so I take the figures with a pinch of salt, but In your opinion is the kop expandable and realistically what’s the maximum it could be expanded to if money was no object (obviously within reason).

[Alan_X]

Brilliant Alan, I am still convinced we can see concrete plinths for steel work on the left as we look at your brilliant overlays.

Having adjusted the perspective I think they're definitely foundations. Still a lot of foundations and piles to go. Looking forward to updated photos. I'll do the same again as work progresses.

[Alan_X]

One thing that’s puzzling me is the Athletic’s report that costs for the new Annie Road COULD rise £20m to £80m due to changes in the design and increased construction costs… surely the club would have agreed a fixed price before they submitted the final planning application and that would already have contained all design changes?   

I started a more detailed post but it's impossible to say without knowing how the contract has been let. Apart from anything else, there is no benefit in trying to force a contractor absorb a £20m increase in the cost  (33% of £60m) because they are either going to look for ways to recover it through the contract or they will go bust halfway through. It's just storing up problems for the future.

[kopite321]

Having adjusted the perspective I think they're definitely foundations. Still a lot of foundations and piles to go. I am looking forward to updated photos. I'll do the same again as work progresses.

Fantastic ...looking forward to seeing those overlays as we progress.. love them.

[Alan_X]

The Kop is already near 13k mate and he said 2.5 times its current size which takes it to about 30k, which is even more unbelievable than 22k!

To be fair I think they meant 2.5 times the size in area not capacity. I'll have a look at what that means in reality.

[Peter McGurk]

Sorry to be a pain Peter I’ve just been reading some of the bits on skyscraper city and know some of the figures are plucked from the sky so I take the figures with a pinch of salt, but In your opinion is the kop expandable and realistically what’s the maximum it could be expanded to if money was no object (obviously within reason).

Within the maximum viewing distances (190m from diagonally opposite corner flag at the ARE), it would be slightly more than the new Anfield Road End (because more of the smaller existing seats would be kept). That would of course put the back of it over Walton Breck Road at very considerable cost.

You could build over Walton Breck Road in a 'tunnel' but security would be a problem - any kind of bomb in there doesn't bear thinking about.

But to answer your question, going straight back without wings or corners and all on our side of the road - about 2,800 (it would be a strange shape because of the angle of WBR)

[Alan_X]

Within the maximum viewing distances, it would be slightly more than the new Anfield Road End (because more of the smaller existing seats would be kept). That would of course put the back of it over Walton Breck Road at very considerable cost.

You could build over Walton Breck Road in a 'tunnel' but security would be a problem - any kind of bomb in there doesn't bear thinking about.

But to answer your question, going straight back without wings or corners and all on our side of the road - about 3,000 (it would be a strange shape because of the angle of WBR)

Summary of the claim was WBR diverted after Gilman Street with a new roundabout in front of the club shop. WRB then runs 10m behind the Park (demoilished) and joins up with Hartnup St.

New stand is 2.5 times the size of existing with 10,000+ additional seats.

Apparently this was according to 'experts' during a 2-hour walk round the site. For me, it doesn't add up.

The new upper level of the ARE is about 9,500. I've just done a quick overlay which I'll upload in a minute to show the viewing distances and the ARE for comparison.

Any Stand that extended beyond the back of the Park would have viewing distances that would be unacceptable.

[Billy Elliot]

There's a good chance that every seat in the Kop and in the new Lower Annie will have a rail in front of them within a few years. If they ever allow more than the 1:1 ratio, would the Kop be fit to hold more people, with current concourses, profiling, etc. Would the plans for the new Annie allow an increase in capacity if the 1:1 is lifted?

[Peter McGurk]

I started a more detailed post but it's impossible to say without knowing how the contract has been let. Apart from anything else, there is no benefit in trying to force a contractor absorb a £20m increase in the cost  (33% of £60m) because they are either going to look for ways to recover it through the contract or they will go bust halfway through. It's just storing up problems for the future.

I wouldn't bother checking. There's no form of lump sum contract that would cover that risk. Completely uninsurable - forget it.

[Peter McGurk]

There's a good chance that every seat in the Kop and in the new Lower Annie will have a rail in front of them within a few years. If they ever allow more than the 1:1 ratio, would the Kop be fit to hold more people, with current concourses, profiling, etc. Would the plans for the new Annie allow an increase in capacity if the 1:1 is lifted?

The physical space, angle of the terrace etc could accommodate almost twice the capacity even with existing safety rules (this has been discussed at length here). But the additional weight needs to be considered (structural strengthening) and the escape time needs to be re-calculated - possibly more or wider exits required.

However, anyone notice how narrow the standard rail seat is? But then, you're only allowed 28 'seats' in a row...

[Peter McGurk]

New stand is 2.5 times the size of existing with 10,000+ additional seats.

Probably as good a definition of bullshit that I've heard in a while.

[Alan_X]

I wouldn't bother checking. There's no form of lump sum contract that would cover that risk. Completely uninsurable - forget it.

I was going to explain the delights of the various forms of contract in enough detail to show why "Didn't they just get a fixed price?.." is more complex that people understand.

[Billy Elliot]

The physical space, angle of the terrace etc could accommodate almost twice the capacity even with existing safety rules (this has been discussed at length here). But the additional weight needs to be considered (structural strengthening) and the escape time needs to be re-calculated - possibly more or wider exits required.

However, anyone notice how narrow the standard rail seat is? But then, you're only allowed 28 'seats' in a row...

Thanks Peter. I assume you're talking about the Kop. I was also wondering about whether the plans for the new Annie could accommodate an increased capacity, if it was increased from 1:1. I can't imagine it hasn't been considered.

[Peter McGurk]

Thanks Peter. I assume you're talking about the Kop. I was also wondering about whether the plans for the new Annie could accommodate an increased capacity, if it was increased from 1:1. I can't imagine it hasn't been considered.

Haven't checked the rake of terrace etc for Anfield Road but the spacing for each seat (front to back) will be bigger (probably 800/850mm versus 600 in the Kop) but that said there are no rules in the Safety Guide (again, haven't checked in a while) for safe standing. Broadly speaking a barrier every seat is far safer than the rules for standing in the Green Guide.

So, broadly same as for Kop.

[Alan_X]

A quick low-res overlay showing what the poster on Shite Scraper City was saying.

The green circle is the optimum viewing distance of 90m from the centre spot. The blue lines are drawn 190m from each corner and those are the maximum viewing distance. Anything outside that is shite.

The pink lines are a rough representation of the line of Walton Breck Road as described in the SSC post.

The red hatched area inside the violet line is the area that the Kop could be extended with a new roof supported like the ARE extension.

Extending the Kop back beyond the Park pub would be ridiculous and the seats would be unusable.

The additional area inside the hatching would equate to 4,000+ seats. There is no way you get an additional 10,000 seats within acceptable viewing distances.

If you demolished the existing Kop and rebuild from scratch you probably end up with fewer seats than now because of the current guidance.

Whatever you do I can't see how Hartnup Street would be unaffected.

*edit I've added an overlay of the new Spurs Stadium home end as a comparison. That's 17,000 and shows the area needed for that many seats with the current guidance.

[18 yard line]

Fascinating stuff especially from Alan and Peter, thank you. I know this has been debated at length in the past but in the current context of the safe standing debate, a new Main and ARE it is really interesting.

[kopite321]

From the Liverpool Echo

EXCLUSIVE: Liverpool stadium plan and naming rights update as FSG 'dream scenario' moves closer
Paul Gorst speaks to Liverpool's managing director Andy Hughes for the latest on stadium plans in an exclusive ECHO interview

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-stadium-plan-fsg-breaking-21760098

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Fascinating stuff especially from Alan and Peter, thank you. I know this has been debated at length in the past but in the current context of the safe standing debate, a new Main and ARE it is really interesting.

I'd echo this, thanks both for sharing your insight.
I have to say though, it absolutely blows my mind that you could be in the back yards of one side if Wylva Rd and still be within the 190m limit - unless I'm misunderstanding of course.

[Redric1970]

I always thought the ends of the kenny dalglish stand could be better designed adding quite a few seats, where the kop meets that stand and where the stand meets the anfield road stand, I’ve tried to put pictures on here but it always says the files to big, but I’m sure if someone can put pics of both ends of the kenny dalglish stand you will see what I mean. I’ve always thought both ends of the sir kenny stand was a mess and poorly designed.

[CraigDS]

The Kenny has big roof supports at either end, and a totally different profile to both the Anny and especially the Kop, so it would be hard to fill the corners in much better than they are currently.

[Alan_X]

I'd echo this, thanks both for sharing your insight.
I have to say though, it absolutely blows my mind that you could be in the back yards of one side if Wylva Rd and still be within the 190m limit - unless I'm misunderstanding of course.

 No - you’re correct. The very back row of the Spurs home end is about 190 m from the far corner posts.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

No - you’re correct. The very back row of the Spurs home end is about 190 m from the far corner posts.

Thanks for confirming. Back of the new Anny and back of Spurs home end look touch and go. Really challenges the concept of in's in . It won't be for me though, I wouldn't be able to see a thing from back there.

[Danny Boy]

Thanks for confirming. Back of the new Anny and back of Spurs home end look touch and go. Really challenges the concept of in's in . It won't be for me though, I wouldn't be able to see a thing from back there.

Just to play devils advocate, I don't think Spurs have had many/any complaints from people at the back of their stand - they were able to see the view from their seat prior to buying and knew it would be pretty far back.

Spurs may be profiled differently from what is being suggested here for the Kop, and whilst it's extremely unlikely to ever be realised, the fact it is within the permitted guidelines mean it could - in theory - happen.

[Peter McGurk]

Just to play devils advocate, I don't think Spurs have had many/any complaints from people at the back of their stand - they were able to see the view from their seat prior to buying and knew it would be pretty far back.

Spurs may be profiled differently from what is being suggested here for the Kop, and whilst it's extremely unlikely to ever be realised, the fact it is within the permitted guidelines mean it could - in theory - happen.

It is as ever, only money... circa 3-4,000 seats would have to pay for a new roof, more escapes, cantilevering/building over WBR (at best - or else playing fast and loose with land acquisitions for a new road, clearing the area/ demolishing properties for the required access and escape.

Don't get me wrong, nothing is impossible. There's only ever consequences (and the balance or not with reward).

The Kenny has big roof supports at either end, and a totally different profile to both the Anny and especially the Kop, so it would be hard to fill the corners in much better than they are currently.

Yes, the corners are already pretty much dovetailed into each other. The scope for infilling above is limited and would require the kind of masts at Dortmund to carry the roofs - again, not very much gained for a lot of expense but hey, there comes a point (and if you've done it right so far) when mad money makes sense - especially in football.

[Alan_X]

Based on the plans I posted earlier this is what an expanded Kop might look like in section. WBR would need to be diverted to accommodate an additional concourse for the additional rows.

It's a completely different profile to Spurs and the roof should follow the example of the existing Kop and be low and brooding.

The red lines are the sightlines from the back of teh ARE and the expanded Kop

[Redric1970]

Based on the plans I posted earlier this is what an expanded Kop might look like in section. WBR would need to be diverted to accommodate an additional concourse for the additional rows.

It's a completely different profile to Spurs and the roof should follow the example of the existing Kop and be low and brooding.

The red lines are the sightlines from the back of teh ARE and the expanded Kop

Looks superb, what do you reckon that would add to the capacity alan.

[Alan_X]

Looks superb, what do you reckon that would add to the capacity alan.

Around 4,000.

[Peter McGurk]

Around 4,000.

As I said above - a lot of expense for just 3-4,000 seats and not strictly financially sustainable. With all the jiggery pokery, new roof, cantilevers, escapes, structural strengthening, house clearances and roads (but for me, i'd leave the road where it is and cantilever over it). It might even be cheaper to knock it down and start again.

There are better and probably more cost effective ways of making things better. Like safe standing at 1.8:1 (but that's not simple either). Of course, making it bigger and doing 1.8:1 - now you're cooking mit der gazoline!

In that mad context, the limiting factor is the viewing distance, which gets you about a 17k Kop sitting down. Of course 30k standing up really is just mad...of course, it is. Isn't it?

[TepidT2O]

Around 4,000.

Is this just building on the back of the existing Kop?  Or is it starting again?

Rerouting WBR is surely a nail in its coffin

[meady1981]

What about moving the rest of the ground closer to Stanley park, then you’d free up more space where the Kop is.

[Eeyore]

What about moving the rest of the ground closer to Stanley park, then you’d free up more space where the Kop is.

If they wanted to really expand the Kop then for me that would have been the most feasible but the Annie Rd plans end the chances of that.

[CraigDS]

If they wanted to really expand the Kop then for me that would have been the most feasible but the Annie Rd plans end the chances of that.

It was never feasible, because you kind have two big fuck off stands running down either side of the pitch which would be impacted if you decided to move the pitch 20m+ towards the park.

[meady1981]

It was never feasible, because you kind have two big fuck off stands running down either side of the pitch which would be impacted if you decided to move the pitch 20m+ towards the park.

Oh here he is. The FSG shill defending them to the hilt. Pathetic.

[CraigDS]

Oh here he is. The FSG shill defending them to the hilt. Pathetic.

 

If we moved the stadium/franchise 3,120,000m towards Boston we'd also have plenty of room.

[meady1981]

Too late, the roof’s already off.

[CraigDS]

Too late, the roof’s already off.

It's getting packed into containers to be shipped over from the docks as we speak.

[Red Beret]

We should just completely dismantle the stadium and move it a hundred yards to the left, that way redeveloping the SKD stand will be a cinch.

[Uncle Ronnie]

I saw this documentary where some old chap tied a bunch of balloons to his house and floated it off. Could we not just move the ground that way? There was a talking dog in it too, so he could be foreman.

[CraigDS]

I saw this documentary where some old chap tied a bunch of balloons to his house and floated it off. Could we not just move the ground that way? There was a talking dog in it too, so he could be foreman.

You seen the price of helium lately?

[Eeyore]

It was never feasible, because you kind have two big fuck off stands running down either side of the pitch which would be impacted if you decided to move the pitch 20m+ towards the park.

If we had done the ARE at the same time as the Main Stand then it would only be one stand. I am not saying it would have been easy, but I think it would have been more feasible than trying to re-route an A road.