Topic: The Klopp Template

[No666]

It's amazing we got to see the type of side evolve that we always dreamed of eh?

My mind often rambles back to that old thread when I see this team. Mind you, my mind is prone to ramble backwards these days.

[BrandoLFC]

Not a slaughterning, but of all times to even ask it, is after recent games when the substitutions are spot on?

By the way, every manager seems to get hammered about subsitutions by their teams own fans, who somehow all know best, which always amuses me.

There's some analysis that indicates that substitutes have increased offensive output.  People already allude to this and have for years with the "Coming on against tired legs" mantra.  There's some thought that deploying all 3 subs by the 60 minute mark would lead to an overall better team performance but who knows.

[Bob Sacamano]

There's some analysis that indicates that substitutes have increased offensive output.  People already allude to this and have for years with the "Coming on against tired legs" mantra.  There's some thought that deploying all 3 subs by the 60 minute mark would lead to an overall better team performance but who knows.

I would like to see some pro-active subs every now and again. The Man United game was crying out for a half-time sub. All we did was waste another 15 minutes in the second half doing the exact same thing that wasn't working for the first 45 minutes.

[Redcap]

Not a slaughterning, but of all times to even ask it, is after recent games when the substitutions are spot on?

By the way, every manager seems to get hammered about subsitutions by their teams own fans, who somehow all know best, which always amuses me. 

Yup.

Klopp gets a lot of substitutions right, often when they're not the obvious ones. The easy example is Gini against Barca but there are plenty of others as well - e.g. all 3 changes against United.

One thing to remember is that we don't have a Riyad Mahrez to bring on if we need a goal. So there's no obvious 'go to' player to make some magic happen. Rather, who we bring on will change the way we play in some way such that we better adapt to what's going on, on the pitch. That's a much more sophisticated way to go about it, but I think most supporters are at the level of 'if behind bring on all the attackers'.

Then there are also the times when the manager might have a different appetite for risk than the supporters. When I think of times when I wanted a different substitution with Klopp, mostly what I think about are all the times we didn't bring on Shaqiri last season when we had him available - including when we drew a few games to let City ahead.

What we don't necessarily appreciate, or don't care about, is that Klopp might have a different risk calculus in his head, where he thinks maybe bringing on Shaqiri will give us an extra 10% chance of winning the game, but also increase our chances of losing the game by 20%, and on that basis doesn't bring him on. We just don't have the same visibility or understanding of all the moving parts that he would.

[PaulF]

Sometimes, bringing on a defensive midfielder can get you goals. So so easy to say any team could do better if...

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Not a slaughterning, but of all times to even ask it, is after recent games when the substitutions are spot on?

By the way, every manager seems to get hammered about subsitutions by their teams own fans, who somehow all know best, which always amuses me.

Well imagine if i'd asked after a defeat!

Obviously Jurgen is an absolute legend, and he certainly seems to know his stuff when it comes to football, but he is quite slow to send on offensive subs, and whenever we send on an extra CB to close out a game (as we did against Spurs) it seems to have the opposite effect, and we, all of a sudden, can't keep the ball for toffee and look all over the place at the back. We didn't concede from it, but that was certainly Joe Gomez' impact when he came on. There was a period in the second half when we were struggling to create openings and, in my mind, we were crying out for Ox or Naby to offer a different threat. The second goal was a little bit freakish in how it came about.

The reality is that there is no way of knowing how games would have turned out with or without subs being used, as none of us can predict the future, but it's my observation. JKs only slight weakness in his tenure, but something I think we can improve on 

[christofu]

Well imagine if i'd asked after a defeat!

Obviously Jurgen is an absolute legend, and he certainly seems to know his stuff when it comes to football, but he is quite slow to send on offensive subs,

Isn't that a 'reputation' he developed at a time before we went on our unbeaten run? I don't generally see that he makes offensive subs too late. I think he is quite considered with his changes, for example against United a change of shape affected the game almost as much to do with the personnel change. Against Spurs (at least up till the 84th minute) I think he was content with our shape, and was looking to keep fresh legs in the midfield areas so we could continue denying spurs the ball in the centre and also provide cover for our full backs

and whenever we send on an extra CB to close out a game (as we did against Spurs) it seems to have the opposite effect, and we, all of a sudden, can't keep the ball for toffee and look all over the place at the back. We didn't concede from it, but that was certainly Joe Gomez' impact when he came on.

I think its case by case, on Sunday Spurs changed shape (took off a defender and replaced with an attacker) and he took immediate action (Klopp seemed not to love how we played after that judging by his interview, mind) and secondly we took Salah off as a precautionary measure so its possible Gomez wasn't originally going to replace Mo.

There was a period in the second half when we were struggling to create openings and, in my mind, we were crying out for Ox or Naby to offer a different threat. The second goal was a little bit freakish in how it came about.

If you are referring to it coming from a long ball then I would say the way we play means we should always have Mane and/or Salah in an area to take advantage of that type of ball in transition. If you are referring to the penalty itself then Klopp talking about Mane's work at being a one man counterpressing machine in that situation suggests it is something we work on, and we do create an awful lot of goals from those types of situations.

The reality is that there is no way of knowing how games would have turned out with or without subs being used, as none of us can predict the future, but it's my observation. JKs only slight weakness in his tenure, but something I think we can improve on 

Absolutely worth the discussion, yes we should look to improve on everything and I do love that we are constantly evolving as a team - I would say that 97 points last year and now 28 from a possible 30 points this year goes some of the way to answering how the games have turned out.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Isn't that a 'reputation' he developed at a time before we went on our unbeaten run? I don't generally see that he makes offensive subs too late. I think he is quite considered with his changes, for example against United a change of shape affected the game almost as much to do with the personnel change. Against Spurs (at least up till the 84th minute) I think he was content with our shape, and was looking to keep fresh legs in the midfield areas so we could continue denying spurs the ball in the centre and also provide cover for our full backs
 

I think its case by case, on Sunday Spurs changed shape (took off a defender and replaced with an attacker) and he took immediate action (Klopp seemed not to love how we played after that judging by his interview, mind) and secondly we took Salah off as a precautionary measure so its possible Gomez wasn't originally going to replace Mo.

If you are referring to it coming from a long ball then I would say the way we play means we should always have Mane and/or Salah in an area to take advantage of that type of ball in transition. If you are referring to the penalty itself then Klopp talking about Mane's work at being a one man counterpressing machine in that situation suggests it is something we work on, and we do create an awful lot of goals from those types of situations.

Absolutely worth the discussion, yes we should look to improve on everything and I do love that we are constantly evolving as a team - I would say that 97 points last year and now 28 from a possible 30 points this year goes some of the way to answering how the games have turned out.

Oh don't get me wrong, I am absolutely nit-picking, but it's the one thing about our play that bothers me.

If I was still a single man with loads of time on my hands I'd be interested to see how many clear cut chances we created from 60min til the end of the game - the 60min mark being the point at which I started to become concerned that the 11 we had on the pitch were running of steam/ideas, and Spurs were containing us, compared to other parts of the game. I'd also be interested to compare chance creation, assist and goal stats for Hendo, Gini, Naby, Ox and Lallana. Obviously there are loads of other factors, but I got the feeling that the chances of Hendo getting 2 in a game were beyond slim, and our midfield, by the 60min mark at least, were not offering a lot of threat. At the same time Spuds counter-attacks were becoming few and far between, also, I suspect due to tiredness. For me, it was the perfect time to send on Naby or Ox, who tend to offer more threat, at the cost of defensive solidity.

Obviously Mane went on to score and everything's a-ok, but it would be preferable for us to create chances that are systematic, rather than relying on Aurier to f*ck up (which, fair enough, is pretty much a banker  ).

Anyway, as I said, I'm nit-picking (my first post was very much tongue in cheek), but I do think it's a slight area for improvement.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Oh don't get me wrong, I am absolutely nit-picking, but it's the one thing about our play that bothers me.

If I was still a single man with loads of time on my hands I'd be interested to see how many clear cut chances we created from 60min til the end of the game - the 60min mark being the point at which I started to become concerned that the 11 we had on the pitch were running of steam/ideas, and Spurs were containing us, compared to other parts of the game. I'd also be interested to compare chance creation, assist and goal stats for Hendo, Gini, Naby, Ox and Lallana. Obviously there are loads of other factors, but I got the feeling that the chances of Hendo getting 2 in a game were beyond slim, and our midfield, by the 60min mark at least, were not offering a lot of threat. At the same time Spuds counter-attacks were becoming few and far between, also, I suspect due to tiredness. For me, it was the perfect time to send on Naby or Ox, who tend to offer more threat, at the cost of defensive solidity.

Obviously Mane went on to score and everything's a-ok, but it would be preferable for us to create chances that are systematic, rather than relying on Aurier to f*ck up (which, fair enough, is pretty much a banker  ).

Anyway, as I said, I'm nit-picking (my first post was very much tongue in cheek), but I do think it's a slight area for improvement.

Key passes, assists and non-blocked shots from 60 mins on:

[afc tukrish]

Key passes, assists and non-blocked shots from 60 mins on:

You're not single, ergo...

[PhaseOfPlay]

You're not single, ergo...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_oSRvcdlgSI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_oSRvcdlgSI</a>

But actually, it's a rare day off for me

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Key passes, assists and non-blocked shots from 60 mins on:

Cheers Pop.

I'm now trying to link those to actual events, so I can understand how good the chances were, but not managing it at the mo. It does seem a little on the low side, in terms of volume, in which case it might back up the notion that our penetration in the final third was a bit limited in that final half hour.

What do others think? On the rare occasion that we are behind, do we leave attacking subs a little bit late? Is my instinct that bringing a CB on for the final stages having a negative impact backed up by any stats, or what others have perceived, or is it all in my head?

[royhendo]

Just read the recent Rory Smith article. What do you make of this gents?

Jurgen Klopp’s team has undergone several small but significant transformations in the last two years. Last season’s incarnation chose its moments to unleash its press more carefully, and became more comfortable in possession. This year’s is experimenting with a higher defensive line, squeezing the play, restricting space.

From this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/sports/liverpool-manchester-united.html

[deFacto please, you bastards]

It makes sense given what we've seen in all of our matches so far, and it's no surprise as Klopp has made adjustments consistently during his time here, in order to better the team's ability to win in various ways.

[royhendo]

Are we squeezing play more though?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Just read the recent Rory Smith article. What do you make of this gents?

From this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/sports/liverpool-manchester-united.html

I don't understand this "playing a higher defensive line" trope, if they mean that we are defending further up the pitch. We've always defended at the halfway line under Klopp. I sent these images to Liam G, I think, after Klopp arrived, to show the difference (and why Rodgers always had issues defending counter-attacks with us). Distances are approximate -

Rodgers team - spread out for possession, wide and deep:



Klopp soon after the takeover, with a more compact shape vertically, but still creating the width (preparation for counter-pressing):



So we've always pushed up under Klopp, and played in the half with the ball. Here is what Klopp had to say:

“We don’t defend higher than we did before, We use the situations. Using the offside line is always part of defending.

Chelsea scored twice after offside situations. That would have been offside in the good old times. We know VAR is in there now so now each offside decision will be settled.

We don’t defend ten yards higher, that’s not how it is.”

Is it possible it just looks that way because we're not running all over the field pressing for the ball, therefore there are less adjustments to be made in the shape?

[royhendo]

Yeah. It seemed contrived. I think we’re confident funnellers now and we make good decisions (tactical fouls, dark arts) but if anything we’re more and more selectively passive for me.

[BrandoLFC]

Cheers Pop.

I'm now trying to link those to actual events, so I can understand how good the chances were, but not managing it at the mo. It does seem a little on the low side, in terms of volume, in which case it might back up the notion that our penetration in the final third was a bit limited in that final half hour.

What do others think? On the rare occasion that we are behind, do we leave attacking subs a little bit late? Is my instinct that bringing a CB on for the final stages having a negative impact backed up by any stats, or what others have perceived, or is it all in my head?

We had 21 shots in total of which none came after we scored in the 74th minute to go ahead.  Salah's shot was the last one we had and we were out shot 5-0 from that point on.

Not specifically for LFC but in general I always think that by solely trying to defend a lead and invite pressure you decrease your chances of winning more than if you just kept playing the same way or at least continued to carry something of an attacking threat. 

Yeah. It seemed contrived. I think we’re confident funnellers now and we make good decisions (tactical fouls, dark arts) but if anything we’re more and more selectively passive for me.

I think it's hard to visualize because of all the times now that attacks are allowed to continue when before the flag would have been raised.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Just read the recent Rory Smith article. What do you make of this gents?

Wonder if he still thinks Spurs will finish above us?

[royhendo]

I think it's hard to visualize because of all the times now that attacks are allowed to continue when before the flag would have been raised.

We could take a load of screenshots or show average positions I guess, but it's game state-driven. If we lead a game and need to close it out, we're now able to go rope a dope and usher the result safely home. As a result we spend a lot of our time letting the pitch be as big as it can be - its full size - from the opposing team's point of view, because a. we're almost certain we can defend anything they throw at us, and b. we're arguably the best side in the world at exploiting the space in behind them when they take too much risk or make a mistake.

[Yiannis]

You wanna trigger PoP? Just tell him we play a higher defensive line.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You wanna trigger PoP? Just tell him we play a higher defensive line.

[newterp]

Or pull his speedos! 

[PoetryInMotion]

You wanna trigger PoP? Just tell him we play a higher defensive line.

Or mix up roles and positions.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Or mix up roles and positions.

This is very important. It is the literal bedrock of any good relationship!

[PhaseOfPlay]

Or pull his speedos! 

If you can get your finger between the muffin top of lard, and the Speedo elastic, then you're doing very well, mate

[Samie]

PoP is time to ring out the short short's in this cold weather now.

[PhaseOfPlay]

PoP is time to ring out the short short's in this cold weather now.

Another few weeks yet.

[hesbighesred]

Shite defending and sloppiness last night for sure, but also a clear Liverpool performance. I was thinking before the game that it might be a but of a return to the early days of Klopp Here and it was just that, wasn't it? Incredible intensity (our identity is our...) with barnstorming pressing, counterpressing and attacking play, undermined by numerous individual errors.

But it indicates a template throughout the age groups, doesn't it? An integration of what were doing that will only be helped by having the training grounds combined.

I thought Jones and Origi exemplified this pretty well - two players who could have had at least some self-justification for sulking, but both absolutely gave everything to make a difference when they could - and got their rewards for it.

Also lovely to see that Brewster's a lot more than a goalscorer, isn't he? Dare I say it but he was Firmino-esque in spells yesterday with his pressing and willingness to get on the ball in deeper areas. Lovely stuff. And I loved Klopp's reaction to it all, too.

[Keith Lard]

I just love this team and club. What more can you say? I’m 39 and this is the happiest I have ever been as a Liverpool supporter.

[christofu]

Also lovely to see that Brewster's a lot more than a goalscorer, isn't he? Dare I say it but he was Firmino-esque in spells yesterday with his pressing and willingness to get on the ball in deeper areas. Lovely stuff. And I loved Klopp's reaction to it all, too.

Absolutely! I thought he set the tone for the whole team particularly in the second half yesterday.

[Hazell]

Not so much relevant to Klopp but came across this from Ian Rush where he talks about his time under various managers and The Boot Room as well him coaching. Well worth reading I think:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/oct/22/ian-rush-coaching-liverpool-juventus-wales

[PoetryInMotion]

This is very important. It is the literal bedrock of any good relationship!

 

[PaulF]

I am now going to pray that if klopp needs a break when his contract runs out he will take the step of running the youth teams for a while.

[the_red_pill]

I'll just leave this here..
https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/mentality-monsters-six-times-liverpool-have-won-points-late-since-2018-19/

Daniel Sturridge vs Chelsea, September 2018
Liverpool claimed a point against Maurizio Sarri’s Chelsea, who themselves enjoyed a brilliant start to the 2018-19 campaign, with Daniel Sturridge scoring against his former club in the dying minutes at Stamford Bridge.

What a strike it was, too.


hanif novrandhita
@hanifnovran
remember daniel sturridge goal vs chelsea #CHELIV what a goal


Divock Origi vs Everton, December 2018
Who could possibly forget this 96th-minute winner in the Merseyside derby at Anfield? One of the weirdest goals ever scored.

Divock Origi, then very much on the periphery, was introduced late on by Klopp to try salvage a winner. The German couldn’t possibly have envisaged how it actually came about, with Toffees keeper Jordan Pickford touching the ball onto the bar before it bounced back out and onto the head of the Belgian.

Anfield absolutely erupted after he nodded it in.


Toby Alderweireld Own Goal vs Spurs, March 2019
With the Reds going toe-to-toe with City in the final stretch of the 2018-19 campaign, they looked like they were to drop a vital two points at home to Spurs after Lucas Moura’s 70th-minute equaliser.

It wasn’t Liverpool’s best performance by any stretch, but they still claimed all three points when Hugo Lloris could only parry Mohamed Salah’s header, with the ball bouncing back in off Toby Alderweireld in the 90th minute.

“I saw the players celebrating but I had no clue how the ball went in,” said Klopp afterwards.


Divock Origi vs Newcastle, May 2019
It was the penultimate game of the season and it became clear Liverpool’s only hope of lifting the title would be keeping the relentless pace with Man City. They managed that, with nine consecutive wins, with Origi playing a big role once again, scoring an 86th-minute at St. James’ Park against Newcastle.

A couple of days later, when Man City couldn’t open the scoring against Leicester until the 70th minute, there was belief Origi’s goal might have ended their long wait for a first Premier League title. It wasn’t to be, in the end.


James Milner vs Leicester, October 2019
Liverpool continued their winning streak from their near-miss, going into 2019-20. The Reds maintained a 100% record seven games in, taking their winning streak to 16 matches, but it looked like that run was to come to an end with the score tied against Leicester City deep into injury time.

But they kept going, courtesy of a 95th-minute penalty after Marc Albrighton was judged to have fouled Sadio Mane. Experienced head James Milner stepped up to slot the spot-kick past Kasper Schmeichel. Ice in his veins.


Sadio Mane vs Aston Villa, November 2019
Liverpool don’t tend to drop points against opposition outside the Premier League’s traditional ‘big six’. The only time they’ve lost a game in the last two seasons was against Swansea in January 2018, and last season dropped just six points from 28 games to teams outside the top six.

Maintaining a 100% record in such games so far this season, it was a huge shock as they trailed to newly-promoted Aston Villa going into the final ten minutes.

Up steps Sadio Mane, setting up Andy Robertson’s equaliser with a brilliant cross in the 87th minute, before scoring the winner himself, bravely risking a boot in the face to flick-on a corner seconds before the full-time whistle.

[royhendo]

I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion about Trent. PhaseOfPlay did a nice series of articles several years back about the difference making players and breaking tactical stalemates - how you try and find ways to make space for those players, exploit mismatches, and use them in ways that hurt the opposing side the most.

Gerrard's career is as good a case study as you could get. Arguably Guardiola conjures up the notion of a False 9 and breaks up an all conquering front line to get this impact from Messi.

Going all hipster though (although we were discussing this on here before being hipster was a 'thing') Pirlo is the best example. He was a 'number 8' or trequartista and was devoted to that idea, and then at Brescia, Carlo Mazzone said 'nah, you go and sit deeper and you'll get more space'. And when he complained, Mazzone pointed at the fact that suddenly he was getting space, making key passes, and getting shots off at goal, and Pirlo bought into the idea that he could be a 'regista' instead.

Labels are labels and formations are formations. You have a player who can do devastating things but he lacks that key burst of pace? Pull him deeper and find ways to make space for him. The pattern when it's done well is: figure out what attributes the player currently has, and if he's good enough, find ways to orchestrate the context that suits him best. Thus far for Trent it's been as an assist machine... but he's a nipper and he's developing. Who knows what he'll end up doing? It might change every couple of seasons for the rest of his career.

[PaulF]

Lovely post royhendo. Klopp is excellent at doing this. I'd say he's doing it all over the pitch. Rather than forcing round pegs into square holes , or buying round pegs, he's carving the holes into ovals where he has excellent oval players. And where he does see a square hole he's buying the perfect square peg.  And where he can't do that he's popping in oblong pegs which may not fit perfectly but don't look horribly out of place.

[royhendo]

Exactly!

[LiamG]

Quite good this on our pressing and so on and how it seems like we are pressing less but aren't

https://youtu.be/eeg5rliDYTM

 

[hesbighesred]

Nice, Roy. See also Lallana as regista.