Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1087810 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3800 on: November 4, 2019, 01:17:50 pm »
Lovely post royhendo. Klopp is excellent at doing this. I'd say he's doing it all over the pitch. Rather than forcing round pegs into square holes , or buying round pegs, he's carving the holes into ovals where he has excellent oval players. And where he does see a square hole he's buying the perfect square peg.  And where he can't do that he's popping in oblong pegs which may not fit perfectly but don't look horribly out of place.
Well put!

And to take this further - he is delighted to keep oblong players with first class professionalism for as long as they'll stay, regardless of whether they're 'world class (TM)', and he also looks for square pegs and oval pegs with distinctly oblongish tendencies, no?
« Last Edit: November 4, 2019, 01:19:56 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline No666

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3801 on: November 4, 2019, 01:59:41 pm »
Are you calling James Milner a big quadrangular lump of wood?

Offline unknownuser

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3802 on: November 4, 2019, 02:14:05 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eeg5rliDYTM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eeg5rliDYTM</a>

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3803 on: November 4, 2019, 04:42:06 pm »
I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion about Trent. PhaseOfPlay did a nice series of articles several years back about the difference making players and breaking tactical stalemates - how you try and find ways to make space for those players, exploit mismatches, and use them in ways that hurt the opposing side the most.

Gerrard's career is as good a case study as you could get. Arguably Guardiola conjures up the notion of a False 9 and breaks up an all conquering front line to get this impact from Messi.

Going all hipster though (although we were discussing this on here before being hipster was a 'thing') Pirlo is the best example. He was a 'number 8' or trequartista and was devoted to that idea, and then at Brescia, Carlo Mazzone said 'nah, you go and sit deeper and you'll get more space'. And when he complained, Mazzone pointed at the fact that suddenly he was getting space, making key passes, and getting shots off at goal, and Pirlo bought into the idea that he could be a 'regista' instead.

Labels are labels and formations are formations. You have a player who can do devastating things but he lacks that key burst of pace? Pull him deeper and find ways to make space for him. The pattern when it's done well is: figure out what attributes the player currently has, and if he's good enough, find ways to orchestrate the context that suits him best. Thus far for Trent it's been as an assist machine... but he's a nipper and he's developing. Who knows what he'll end up doing? It might change every couple of seasons for the rest of his career.


Players are skill sets, not positions. This one basic fundamental truth of football changes everything you see about the game and the tactics. Once we accept that premise (as players, coaches, managers or spectators), it becomes easier to see where players fit in to any given system (once we know the system requirements and the formation). It's really that simple, and yet all over the world, at every level, we complicate it (as players, coaches, managers and spectators).

Thankfully, Kloppo knows this. That's why we have a great TEAM.
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Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3804 on: November 4, 2019, 04:43:29 pm »
I am not sure of the tactics and formation, but what I see is this. A refusal to give up until the whistle has blown and an extraordinary amount of last-minute goals. Exactly what happened when he was at Dortmund. This is well and truly a team with Klopp's mentality

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3805 on: November 4, 2019, 06:12:36 pm »
Are you calling James Milner a big quadrangular lump of wood?
I was totally thinking of Milner with that first oblong bit. But he does have an angular sort of physique, doesn't he? Especially that jawline...kind of jawline you saw on 1950s Superman.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3806 on: November 4, 2019, 06:41:07 pm »
I was totally thinking of Milner with that first oblong bit. But he does have an angular sort of physique, doesn't he? Especially that jawline...kind of jawline you saw on 1950s Superman.

His arms make him look like a character from FFVII.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3807 on: November 4, 2019, 06:41:32 pm »
I was totally thinking of Milner with that first oblong bit. But he does have an angular sort of physique, doesn't he? Especially that jawline...kind of jawline you saw on 1950s Superman.

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Offline BazC

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3808 on: November 4, 2019, 07:11:59 pm »

Players are skill sets, not positions. This one basic fundamental truth of football changes everything you see about the game and the tactics. Once we accept that premise (as players, coaches, managers or spectators), it becomes easier to see where players fit in to any given system (once we know the system requirements and the formation). It's really that simple, and yet all over the world, at every level, we complicate it (as players, coaches, managers and spectators).

Thankfully, Kloppo knows this. That's why we have a great TEAM.

Just checked this thread out after the Trent one. I always come back to your posts on here pointing out the above - a Team is a set of skills, as opposed to positions. People can’t get their head around Trent putting in some world class attacking numbers and seem to want to move him further up the pitch. We’ve got a lot of the attacking skill coming from them so they want to push them into midfield. When they’re basically playing there already.

This Klopp template fascinates me mainly because of those fullbacks. They’re world class attackers playing from fullback. The effect it has on the side is we have 2 potent attacking weapons as “additional” skills. Most teams can’t get this many avenues of attack on the field. The balance wouldn’t be right defensively. Klopp’s managed it - and it’s actually been brilliant to watch unfold. It’s a fine tuned machine and it does splutter a bit if a few of those parts are changed around - as we’ve seen recently.

It’s because we have total footballers across every position why it’s possible. They’re technically all top class, intelligent, quick and bold. Since they got the confidence to really stamp their skill on games, it’s been consistently one of the best points gathering exercises seen in football. Something like 131 out of the last 150. That’s equivalent to a 101pt season, and it’s a run rate they’ve been going at for 50 games now.

The result of this talented set of players is a team that plays so far up the field now that the CBs are basically midfielders. Allison and Van Dijk are so good, they’re given control of half the field a lot of the time. It’s even strong enough to allow Matip forays into midfield and carry the ball out of defence - something I think we’ve missed recently. The fullbacks are already in the attack by the time the balls at our CBs/Fabinho area around the half way line - and this seems to happen a lot of the time now.

The next phase of this might be to add another avenue of attack from one of the number 8 positions. Keita and Ox are getting game time, and well, Ox scored 3 goals in as many games this last few weeks, so that’s pretty imminent. Interesting to watch if that gives up defensive solidity though. Trent’s a world class midfielder at the moment, because the number 8 on his side picks up the slack. This was a nice evolution of the team since Ox got injured; instead of relying on Henderson, Gini or Milner on that side for attacking output, they did what they do best; plug holes and solidify midfield. It encouraged Trent and Robertson to pick up the attacking slack, and by the end of last season they’d broken records for assists. This season it’s even more aggressive, but if we stick a more attack minded 8 in there as well, then defensively the balance might not be right? Looking forward to seeing how that little evolution of the team pans out this season.

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Online royhendo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3809 on: November 4, 2019, 07:18:17 pm »
There’s the one complex factor: the skill sets are fluid I guess, with younger players at least. Is that fair? The skill set grows, the options develop...
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3810 on: November 4, 2019, 07:25:39 pm »
There’s the one complex factor: the skill sets are fluid I guess, with younger players at least. Is that fair? The skill set grows, the options develop...

Decision-making improves with experience, is probably a better way to look at it. The more mistakes you learn from, the more economically you see the game, and the more economically you see the game, the more decisive you become. Chunking, I believe it's called. You get better at reading larger and larger chunks of the unfolding tactical picture in a smaller and smaller time frame. That makes for better decisions as the picture gets clearer, quicker.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3811 on: November 4, 2019, 07:31:17 pm »
There’s the one complex factor: the skill sets are fluid I guess, with younger players at least. Is that fair? The skill set grows, the options develop...

And there is the rest of the squad to look at. If Hoever or someone else becomes a serious option at attacking RB, then Trent playing elsewhere becomes a more option to fit our best players into the team. Right now, we have a lot of CMs, so there's no point in adding another one to the pool and taking from our right flank. The only way that Trent would need to be moved elsewhere is if he has a knack of scoring goals a la Bale, in which case you'd want him in zone 14 as much as possible. For virtually every other contribution, it's a matter of fitting the best suited players into a system.
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Offline rebel23

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3812 on: November 4, 2019, 07:32:41 pm »
Decision-making improves with experience, is probably a better way to look at it. The more mistakes you learn from, the more economically you see the game, and the more economically you see the game, the more decisive you become. Chunking, I believe it's called. You get better at reading larger and larger chunks of the unfolding tactical picture in a smaller and smaller time frame. That makes for better decisions as the picture gets clearer, quicker.

How do you explain Milner's mistake the other night in the league cup? He's 33 and has played hundreds of games in the Premier League yet still makes a basic mistake like that.  It's baffling.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3813 on: November 4, 2019, 07:32:43 pm »
Decision-making improves with experience, is probably a better way to look at it. The more mistakes you learn from, the more economically you see the game, and the more economically you see the game, the more decisive you become. Chunking, I believe it's called. You get better at reading larger and larger chunks of the unfolding tactical picture in a smaller and smaller time frame. That makes for better decisions as the picture gets clearer, quicker.

Wasn't that the problem with Plessis? Looked good when tasked with dealing with a small area. Had that area widened as he was considered as a senior player, and couldn't cope with it.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3814 on: November 4, 2019, 07:33:40 pm »
How do you explain Milner's mistake the other night? He's 33 and has played hundreds of games in the Premier League yet still makes a basic mistake like that.  It's baffling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNoqq9Vfc0g
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Offline LiamG

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3815 on: November 4, 2019, 08:00:34 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eeg5rliDYTM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eeg5rliDYTM</a>

that's what i posted but had no idea how to embed it!

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3816 on: November 4, 2019, 08:11:51 pm »


Read that as "Superman: An Origi Story..."  :D
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Offline Dim Glas

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3817 on: November 4, 2019, 09:20:30 pm »
Read that as "Superman: An Origi Story..."  :D

me too, and I didn't even question it.

Only realised it didn't say that now  ;D

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3818 on: November 4, 2019, 09:35:49 pm »
me too, and I didn't even question it.

Only realised it didn't say that now  ;D

Big Divvy with literary aspirations, why not?
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3819 on: November 4, 2019, 09:38:37 pm »
His arms make him look like a character from FFVII.

Both perfect!

There’s the one complex factor: the skill sets are fluid I guess, with younger players at least. Is that fair? The skill set grows, the options develop...
It's true with older players as well, isn't it? There are certain non-negotiables for Klopp as a manager around the mental, physical and technical requirements of any role. But look at Lallana as regista - Klopp's not only willing to 'adapt' his players, he's willing to adapt himself. Would Klopp always have chosen a Lallana to replace Fabinho in an important match? Regardless, he seemed to value the possession more than the one-on-one physical side in that role against Villa. And, tight scoreline aside, it was a very professional and dominant performance from us. If any player can find their way into a role due to their ability to meet those initial requirements, then Klopp is open to letting the player evolve his understanding of the role, too. It's not a one-way coaching street, I guess. That's why he values independent decision-making on the field so much. Such players can take a role in their own coaching and if you get enough such people together and the results tend towards the outstanding.
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Online royhendo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3820 on: November 4, 2019, 09:44:18 pm »
I don’t like Lallana there but he maybe hopes he can coax a Sahin out of him eh?

I think he’s shown he can get a tune out of a diminishing skill set too. Look at Sturridge!
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3821 on: November 5, 2019, 03:06:19 am »
How do you explain Milner's mistake the other night in the league cup? He's 33 and has played hundreds of games in the Premier League yet still makes a basic mistake like that.  It's baffling.

One incident doesn't negate the general point though. Players will make mistakes (concentration, ageing, etc). But the overall trend is that experience leads to better decision-making - the caveat being unless the player is entirely uncoachable (hello Jose Enrique ;D)
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Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3822 on: November 5, 2019, 03:22:34 am »
One incident doesn't negate the general point though. Players will make mistakes (concentration, ageing, etc). But the overall trend is that experience leads to better decision-making - the caveat being unless the player is entirely uncoachable (hello Jose Enrique ;D)

Wasn't a bad decision, either, just a horribly under-hit hospital ball...
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3823 on: November 5, 2019, 03:40:59 am »
Wasn't a bad decision, either, just a horribly under-hit hospital ball...

That's the NHS for ya!
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3824 on: November 8, 2019, 04:35:51 pm »
Saw this (a rare interesting article on BBC Football) and thought here was the best place for it. Sorry if it's already been posted somewhere else.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50322882

Quote
Liverpool v Man City: Why Premier League title rivals are 'near perfect'
By Duncan Alexander (Opta)

Liverpool and Manchester City are set to renew their rivalry this weekend as the champions of Europe and the champions of England meet at Anfield.

League leaders Liverpool are six points ahead of their north-west rivals but both sides have elevated themselves to a state of "near perfection" in recent years.

Are we set for the highest-quality Premier League game ever? We take a closer look before the top-of-the-table encounter.

Perfection
For an hour or so last Saturday it looked like both Liverpool and Manchester City were going to lose. The last time that happened on the same Premier League weekend, let alone the same day, was December 2016.

The two clubs have since elevated themselves to a new plateau, one where dropping points is no longer an option. In the world of the sub-two-hour marathon, the Premier League is now a nine-month sprint.

Part of the anticipation about this weekend's fixture is that we are firmly in the midst of a genuine duopoly at the top of the table, something that harks back to some of the greatest periods in the history of the competition.

From Manchester United's battles with Newcastle and Arsenal in the 1990s to Jose Mourinho's ultimately successful attempt to dethrone Arsenal's Invincibles in the 2000s, two club mini-rivalries have lit up the league. Many of the early duopolies live on in our hearts because of the mind games they inspired.

Kevin Keegan telling Alex Ferguson that "he's got to go to Middlesbrough and get something" came about precisely because in the 1990s it wasn't that unlikely that a title challenger could take their eye off the ball and drop points in a supposedly easy fixture.

Quote
The country is about to embark on its second general election since Liverpool last lost a league game at Anfield

But what City and Liverpool have done in the past couple of years is ramp up their consistency to such a level that there's little point goading the rival manager.

Pep Guardiola's comments about Sadio Mane and diving last weekend were possibly the closest the Klopp/Guardiola rivalry has come to this, and it's probably not a coincidence that it happened on a day when Liverpool looked like they might finally be about to lose.

For fans of the two clubs these are glorious times but for everyone else, a little more inconsistency, a little more jeopardy and, therefore, a little more needle between the managers, would probably not go amiss.

Power duopoly   Period   Points dropped per game
Man Utd/Newcastle   1995-97   0.47
Man Utd/Arsenal   1997-99   0.55
Arsenal/Chelsea           2003-05   0.46
Man Utd/Chelsea   2005-07   0.37
Man Utd/Chelsea   2009-11   0.37
Man City/Man Utd   2011-13   0.32
Liverpool/Man City   2018-   0.22

Perfection Part II
If you're going to be as consistent as City and Liverpool have been then the numbers should back you up. And they do.

The three highest pass-completion rates recorded in Premier League history are 89% by Manchester City in 2017-18, 89% by Manchester City in 2018-19 and 89% by Manchester City in 2019-20, while the four highest average possession rates in Premier League history are the four seasons City have spent under Pep Guardiola.

The country, meanwhile, is about to embark on its second general election since Liverpool last lost a league game at Anfield. In reverse order, the visiting managers to win there in the Klopp era are Sam Allardyce, Paul Clement, Louis van Gaal and Alan Pardew.

That doesn't just seem like a long time ago, it feels like another dimension. The German's mentality men continue to run through concrete walls and heave out wins in the face of certain defeat.

Since the start of last season, Liverpool have claimed 26 points from losing positions, more than 10% of the division's total in that period. The greatest trick the Reds ever pulled was convincing people that Manchester United are the masters of the late-goal comeback when the truth was staring us in the face all along.

Perfection Part III
Liverpool's Possession Value


So we've seen the outcome of Liverpool and Manchester City's near-perfection but who are the players making the difference?

Fortunately there's a new Opta metric out for 2019-20 called Possession Value which credits individual players based on their positive and negative contributions, wherever they are on the pitch and whatever their roles.

Starting with Liverpool, it's satisfying to see the numbers conform almost perfectly to how everyone has assessed Klopp's system.

The front three of Mane, Mohamed Salah and Roberto Firmino (in that order) have the highest net possession value contribution, while the two full-backs, Andy Robertson and Trent Alexander-Arnold, have the highest number of positive actions, although the right-back also has the highest number of negative actions too.

This isn't a bad thing, though, simply a reflection of his role in the side.

The England man has already made 100 unsuccessful crosses and corners in the Premier League this season, 12 more than Norwich have as a team, yet after Divock Origi's second goal against Barcelona in last season's Champions League semi-final, no-one can question Alexander-Arnold's delivery credentials.

For City, one man stands out and it's Riyad Mahrez. The Algerian has not featured in the Premier League since the defeat by Wolves but his net impact dwarfs his team-mates' and everyone at Liverpool too.

That said, Mahrez was ultimately the reason City did not win in this exact fixture last season, wasting a late penalty after Leroy Sane had been brought down by Virgil van Dijk.

If given an opportunity to make amends on Sunday, these numbers suggest he could well do so. The other selection concern for Guardiola is David Silva, who had to be substituted at half-time on Saturday.

The possession value framework, though, has him fairly low down. Bernardo Silva would, it seems, be a far bigger loss. Lastly, compare the City full-backs to Liverpool's.

Nominally they play in the same position but in reality it's a completely different role, despite Kyle Walker's heroics against Southampton. It doesn't really need restating but Sunday's game really is a clash of two distinct approaches to the game, devised in turn by arguably the two best football managers on the planet.

Manchester City's Possession Value



Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3825 on: November 8, 2019, 04:40:32 pm »
What the hell is "PV+"?

Sounds like something you need a 6-monthly injection for.
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Offline Goalposts for Jumpers

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3826 on: November 8, 2019, 04:53:02 pm »
What the hell is "PV+"?

Sounds like something you need a 6-monthly injection for.

Something you get when your speedos are too tight  ;D

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3827 on: November 8, 2019, 05:00:20 pm »
What the hell is "PV+"?

Sounds like something you need a 6-monthly injection for.

Ponte Vedra is a decent beach just south of Jacksonville...
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3828 on: November 8, 2019, 05:35:26 pm »
Ponte Vedra is a decent beach just south of Jacksonville...

Is the PV+ beach for the overweight people?
Better looking than Samie.

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3829 on: November 8, 2019, 06:18:02 pm »
Is the PV+ beach for the overweight people?

Body-mass challenged, Speedo boy...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3830 on: November 8, 2019, 06:32:16 pm »
Body-mass challenged, Speedo boy...

We prefer "Differently-Dieted", thanks
Better looking than Samie.

Offline farawayred

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3831 on: November 8, 2019, 06:49:34 pm »
We prefer "Differently-Dieted", thanks
And there was me associating double Ds with something else...
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3832 on: November 8, 2019, 07:50:06 pm »
And there was me associating double Ds with something else...

Double Dutch bus coming down the street?

Moving pretty fast so kind of shuffle your feet...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline L8Craig

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3833 on: November 8, 2019, 09:56:48 pm »
Be coming up with something else next.

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3834 on: November 9, 2019, 12:36:04 am »
Be coming up with something else next.

Gegengegenpressing...

While you are in possession, you start hounding opposition players...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3835 on: November 9, 2019, 05:21:17 am »
Gegengegenpressing...

While you are in possession, you start hounding opposition players...

:D like blockers in the NFL
"Jürgen Klopp is bringing Liverpool's 'fuck you' back. And I can't wait."

Offline M(oaning) B(ecomes) E(mbarrassing)

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3836 on: November 10, 2019, 09:27:59 am »
Hands up if you would cheerfully swap Jurgen Klopp for Roy Hodgson tomorrow!   


What? 
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Online royhendo

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3837 on: November 11, 2019, 01:13:22 pm »
Barney Ronay on the second goal yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/nov/10/liverpool-symmetrical-full-backs-world-leaders

Quote
"It is the hardest thing in any sport to make astonishingly difficult things look astonishingly simple. With 13 minutes gone at Anfield Liverpool produced a piece of play that seemed to stop the day, a perfect little miniature of bold, simple lines, carved across the pitch, like a Miró line drawing."

P.S. worth adding this too.

Quote
"There will of course be a temptation to call it now, to say Liverpool won the title here, that this is an impregnable lead. It should be resisted simply out of respect to the remaining six months of the season. But Liverpool did establish one thing beyond any doubt here. Right now, in this snapshot in time, this is the best football team in the world."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 01:19:54 pm by royhendo »
"Word of the day is 'philodox' (17th century): one who is in love with their own opinion, and who consequently believes that everyone else should share it."  @susie_dent on twitter - https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1419683653844668422

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3838 on: November 11, 2019, 01:26:33 pm »
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/sports/liverpool-man-city-klopp.html

Times on the Template, rather than the temper...
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #3839 on: November 11, 2019, 02:13:59 pm »
We've got the best keeper, best fullbacks, best centre back, best defensive midfielder and best front 3 in the world.

This is an absolutely unreal time to be a Liverpool fan.
Football, like life, isn't about getting what you want or even deserve. It's about appreciating what you have.