Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1090271 times)

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1840 on: December 7, 2018, 12:17:27 pm »
I think there's no doubt that the template has been refined since he's been here.
The other thing is that we've moved away from cheap hopeful punts to signing quality to address specific weaknesses.

Offline God's Left Peg

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1841 on: December 8, 2018, 02:57:45 pm »
It's clicking again, a bit at a time, and say it quietly but our play is starting to look just that bit smoother going forward.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1842 on: December 8, 2018, 03:01:49 pm »
Don't know how much closer can we get.
I haven't seen a better Liverpool side in 20 years.
Not even close.

Offline DelTrotter

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1843 on: December 8, 2018, 03:03:39 pm »
Don't know how much closer can we get.
I haven't seen a better Liverpool side in 20 years.
Not even close.

Yep, we are incredible, this is our best side of my life time. I think any rival fan hoping we fall apart if we get a big injury like Van Dijk or something will be in for a surprise too. We are just too good, have too much quality everywhere and a brilliant manager.

Wouldn't like to test that theory mind, just saying!  ;D

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1844 on: December 8, 2018, 03:05:50 pm »
Don't know how much closer can we get.
I haven't seen a better Liverpool side in 20 years.
Not even close.
Me neither. This balance of almost perfect defending and scoring tons of goals at the same time is unprecedented for me this last 25 years I've been watching this team. If this team doesn't end our trophy drought pretty soon then I don't know if we ever will do it.

Offline Zlen

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1845 on: December 8, 2018, 03:06:46 pm »
Yep, we are incredible, this is our best side of my life time. I think any rival fan hoping we fall apart if we get a big injury like Van Dijk or something will be in for a surprise too. We are just too good, have too much quality everywhere and a brilliant manager.

Wouldn't like to test that theory mind, just saying!  ;D

Crazy thing is, with Ox out and Keita/Fabinho still finding their feet - there is room to become significantly better without buying a single new player.
Which is basically a terrifyingly exciting thought.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1846 on: December 9, 2018, 07:41:59 pm »
Saw that we used 4231/442 8 times this season and won 8 times.

It makes me want to keep using it, this shape improves our build-up play because it forces us to find Bobby between the lines which makes us unplayable when executed well.

Bobby wasn't as deep vs Bournemouth, he really looked like a second striker, even though it looked a bit pedestrian in the first half balance seems to be ok with this shape so hopefully we'll see more of it in the upcoming weeks if Klopp has indeed lost a bit of faith in 433.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1847 on: December 9, 2018, 07:56:58 pm »
Saw that we used 4231/442 8 times this season and won 8 times.

It makes me want to keep using it, this shape improves our build-up play because it forces us to find Bobby between the lines which makes us unplayable when executed well.

Bobby wasn't as deep vs Bournemouth, he really looked like a second striker, even though it looked a bit pedestrian in the first half balance seems to be ok with this shape so hopefully we'll see more of it in the upcoming weeks if Klopp has indeed lost a bit of faith in 433.

Would be amazing for him to lose faith in 433 considering we've never used it

Offline v2krules

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1848 on: December 9, 2018, 08:22:18 pm »
Would be amazing for him to lose faith in 433 considering we've never used it

Dude don't continue to say there is no 4-3-3 and remain in denial. There is a 4-3-3, Even if you ostrich yourself in the sand it exists bro.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1849 on: December 9, 2018, 08:26:57 pm »
Dude don't continue to say there is no 4-3-3 and remain in denial. There is a 4-3-3, Even if you ostrich yourself in the sand it exists bro.

It's not about being in denial, it's about understanding the concept of what we're actually doing on the pitch. We don't play with a 4-3-3. We didn't last year. I've already address this in the previous topic and I've shown what the manager has actually said.

In other-words it's not me saying it, it's the manager confirming it, along with the average positions in our games last season.

Those are facts.

Offline v2krules

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1850 on: December 9, 2018, 08:30:31 pm »
Saw that we used 4231/442 8 times this season and won 8 times.

It makes me want to keep using it, this shape improves our build-up play because it forces us to find Bobby between the lines which makes us unplayable when executed well.

Bobby wasn't as deep vs Bournemouth, he really looked like a second striker, even though it looked a bit pedestrian in the first half balance seems to be ok with this shape so hopefully we'll see more of it in the upcoming weeks if Klopp has indeed lost a bit of faith in 433.

I like the 4-4-2 better than the 4-2-31..

We moved to 4-2-3-1 because our 4-3-3 wasn't working in the beginning. Our front 3 were not clicking well start of season (world cup tiredness) and we lost Ox who was the key for a successful 4-3-3 last season. Keita was still integrating. So 4-3-3 from last season wasn't working at the start of season. Klopp moved to 4-2-31, which in my opinion has been "meh". We won 8 times with that formation yes, but all those wins were mostly scraps. It did the job, but its not utilizing our strengths to the best. We are not using Salah's skill in the wings nor Bobbys skills as a false 9 in the 4-2-3-1 formation.

I like the 4-4-2 we played yesterday. Allows Bobby to drag defenders while Salah can use that space in the middle or provide the option to run in the wings. Also Shaqiri is not playing like a winger (not running to byline or beating defenders), more like a right sided midfielder distributing balls and switching play. The 4-4-2 suits this better.

Our best formation would still be the 4-3-3 from last season(Klopp might yet come up with something entirely new and more potent). It depends on a return to form of our front 3 (Bobby still not at his best) and their world class link up plays. Also we need Keita/Lallana to step up to the Ox role until he gets back. The directness is desperately needed to link from midfield to the front 3. And above all we have to accept not using Shaqiri well. Despite his form, we have to use him more as an impact sub if we have to go back to 4-3-3. If we can recreate the irresistible attacking force we were with the 4-3-3 of last season, we can truly start to dream.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2018, 08:38:18 pm by v2krules »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1851 on: December 10, 2018, 03:00:09 am »
Dude don't continue to say there is no 4-3-3 and remain in denial. There is a 4-3-3, Even if you ostrich yourself in the sand it exists bro.

A 4-3-3 requires a central target, two wingers, a midfield triangle, and a back four. If there isn't a central target and two wingers, then it's not a 4-3-3.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1852 on: December 10, 2018, 03:13:01 am »
A 4-3-3 requires a central target, two wingers, a midfield triangle, and a back four. If there isn't a central target and two wingers, then it's not a 4-3-3.

Facts are not important mate  :)

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1853 on: December 10, 2018, 03:20:40 am »
A 4-3-3 requires a central target, two wingers, a midfield triangle, and a back four. If there isn't a central target and two wingers, then it's not a 4-3-3.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1854 on: December 10, 2018, 03:14:48 pm »
A 4-3-3 requires a central target, two wingers, a midfield triangle, and a back four. If there isn't a central target and two wingers, then it's not a 4-3-3.
Why? According to whom?

I realise that Salah played the role of our 'striker' last season, and had the highest average position on the pitch. But it was also extremely clear that we had one central player dropping off from their defensive line - Firmino, and two starting from a wider starting position, one more involved in build up, one not.

Compared to the 4-2-3-1 we played yesterday there's no doubt that the roles are similar, but the positioning of Fab and Gini and Shaq compared to how we've play our 4-3-3 are clear.

Our version of a 4-3-3 ultimately had a very narrow '3' at the top. What made it a 4-3-3 were the clearly different strata. Of course, you could describe it properly accurately as something like:

A 4 when defending with 2 who are wingers in attack
1 who's a DM that occasionally drops between the CBs in possession but can actually be the furthest forward when pressing because of how our pressing traps work
1 who's a knitter, there to keep the midfield cohesive who's position and even role may depend a lot on his partners
1 who's there as a runner to break the lines unless it's Milner here who'll drift wide to get possession
1 who's starting out wide and often dribbling at players but certainly gets into the box where possible
1 who presses from the front, drops deeper to seek the ball but definitely still gets into the box especially on the break
1 who starts wide and has less responsiblity for tracking back and is always looking to attack the box through dribbling or timing of runs...


...But that would be a load of bollocks when all someone's trying to do is describe some obvious differences in shape and starting position without necessarily wanting to get bogged down into a massive tactical discussion.

In that case, I would say 4-3-3 very neatly describes a system with 2 CBs, 2 FBs, 3CMs and 3 FWDS.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1855 on: December 10, 2018, 03:17:14 pm »
Why? According to whom?

I realise that Salah played the role of our 'striker' last season, and had the highest average position on the pitch. But it was also extremely clear that we had one central player dropping off from their defensive line - Firmino, and two starting from a wider starting position, one more involved in build up, one not.

Compared to the 4-2-3-1 we played yesterday there's no doubt that the roles are similar, but the positioning of Fab and Gini and Shaq compared to how we've play our 4-3-3 are clear.

Our version of a 4-3-3 ultimately had a very narrow '3' at the top. What made it a 4-3-3 were the clearly different strata. Of course, you could describe it properly accurately as something like:

A 4 when defending with 2 who are wingers in attack
1 who's a DM that occasionally drops between the CBs in possession but can actually be the furthest forward when pressing because of how our pressing traps work
1 who's a knitter, there to keep the midfield cohesive who's position and even role may depend a lot on his partners
1 who's there as a runner to break the lines unless it's Milner here who'll drift wide to get possession
1 who's starting out wide and often dribbling at players but certainly gets into the box where possible
1 who presses from the front, drops deeper to seek the ball but definitely still gets into the box especially on the break
1 who starts wide and has less responsiblity for tracking back and is always looking to attack the box through dribbling or timing of runs...


...But that would be a load of bollocks when all someone's trying to do is describe some obvious differences in shape and starting position without necessarily wanting to get bogged down into a massive tactical discussion.

In that case, I would say 4-3-3 very neatly describes a system with 2 CBs, 2 FBs, 3CMs and 3 FWDS.

According to the manager who has spoken about this. 

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1856 on: December 10, 2018, 03:19:37 pm »
Average positions for 2017/2018, I can't be arsed to provide you with all 60 same games we played.




























Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1857 on: December 10, 2018, 03:24:16 pm »
Why? According to whom?

I realise that Salah played the role of our 'striker' last season, and had the highest average position on the pitch. But it was also extremely clear that we had one central player dropping off from their defensive line - Firmino, and two starting from a wider starting position, one more involved in build up, one not.

Compared to the 4-2-3-1 we played yesterday there's no doubt that the roles are similar, but the positioning of Fab and Gini and Shaq compared to how we've play our 4-3-3 are clear.

Our version of a 4-3-3 ultimately had a very narrow '3' at the top. What made it a 4-3-3 were the clearly different strata. Of course, you could describe it properly accurately as something like:

A 4 when defending with 2 who are wingers in attack
1 who's a DM that occasionally drops between the CBs in possession but can actually be the furthest forward when pressing because of how our pressing traps work
1 who's a knitter, there to keep the midfield cohesive who's position and even role may depend a lot on his partners
1 who's there as a runner to break the lines unless it's Milner here who'll drift wide to get possession
1 who's starting out wide and often dribbling at players but certainly gets into the box where possible
1 who presses from the front, drops deeper to seek the ball but definitely still gets into the box especially on the break
1 who starts wide and has less responsiblity for tracking back and is always looking to attack the box through dribbling or timing of runs...


...But that would be a load of bollocks when all someone's trying to do is describe some obvious differences in shape and starting position without necessarily wanting to get bogged down into a massive tactical discussion.

In that case, I would say 4-3-3 very neatly describes a system with 2 CBs, 2 FBs, 3CMs and 3 FWDS.

You see formations more in defence than attack, due to the attacking principle of "Mobility", which requires players to leave position to create space either for themselves or for others, culminating in a form of organised chaos.

When we defend, Salah usually stays up, Bobby and Mane drop in, and we put a double pivot in front of the back four. That's where our 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 comes into it.

If we kept Mane and Firmino up in the attack, or kept Firmino up and dropped Salah and Mane onto out fullbacks in defence (and sometimes we do that), and put a wall of three players in front of the back four, then we would be playing a true 4-3-3. But even Klopp recognises what we do isn't a true 4-3-3:

"We have a very strange 4-5-1 formation with Sadio as a midfielder, Bobby [Roberto Firmino] being a midfielder more or less and Mo [Salah] being a striker, even though he plays in a little different position"

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - if we want a "template" for how Bobby and Salah play, we need look no further than Henry/Bergkamp at Arsenal - a striker with a wide starting position, and a forward who drops off into the space to make the play. Arsenal's formation was a 4-4-1-1, with the forward "1" being off to the side in the first phase of build-up, just like ours is for most games.

Quote
Why? According to whom?

Every federation's coaching courses in Europe :D :P

(Seriously, though, that's the true 4-3-3. Anything else requires a different nomenclature to distinguish the roles of the players).

Edit: A slide from a KNVB presentation on their coaching philosophy -

« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 03:38:09 pm by PhaseOfPlay »
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Offline newterp

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1858 on: December 10, 2018, 03:30:05 pm »
This has turned into a weird thread. A lot of people just refusing to listen to Klopps words

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1859 on: December 10, 2018, 03:31:17 pm »
This has turned into a weird thread. A lot of people just refusing to listen to Klopps words

Pretty much. It would be understandable if we were just coming up with this out of thin air.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1860 on: December 10, 2018, 04:06:13 pm »

Edit: A slide from a KNVB presentation on their coaching philosophy -



Look at those fucking square pass options, no wonder Dutch football has gone to shit...  ;D
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Offline Yiannis

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1861 on: December 10, 2018, 04:13:24 pm »
PoP posted that cause he loves watching the keeper mentioned in the formation.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1862 on: December 10, 2018, 04:14:35 pm »
PoP posted that cause he loves watching the keeper mentioned in the formation.

;D
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1863 on: December 10, 2018, 06:54:49 pm »
You'd think it'd be clear what people meant by 433 but no let's nitpick on technicalities till cows come home and derail discussion.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1864 on: December 10, 2018, 07:04:02 pm »
Mo and Sadio are super fast and Allison is cool as fuck planting a knees ups during a boss header clearance whilst still in his own box and all in pink. Definitely closer. 100%.
Amplification does not equal truth. 

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1865 on: December 10, 2018, 07:05:15 pm »
You'd think it'd be clear what people meant by 433 but no let's nitpick on technicalities till cows come home and derail discussion.

How is it is clear when you say 4-3-3 and the manager and what we actual do on the pitch is clearly different?

It's not a technicality. It either is or isn't a 4-3-3. 

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1866 on: December 10, 2018, 07:09:13 pm »
You'd think it'd be clear what people meant by 433 but no let's nitpick on technicalities till cows come home and derail discussion.

It's germane to the discussion because Klopp clearly has favoured a 4-2-3-1 shape for most of his career. Knowing that, and the roles in it, will help to understand what it is we're doing on the pitch. Calling what we're doing on the pitch in most games, a "4-3-3" would mean we are talking about roles that aren't being performed on the field in relation to said shape.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1867 on: December 10, 2018, 07:09:25 pm »
what we actual do on the pitch is clearly different?
It's really not clear. If it wasn't 433 it wasn't far off from it. This whole board was referring to that shape as 433 this and last season, let's just move on , everybody knows what was meant by it.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1868 on: December 10, 2018, 07:14:50 pm »
It's really not clear. If it wasn't 433 it wasn't far off from it. This whole board was referring to that shape as 433 this and last season, let's just move on , everybody knows what was meant by it.

1. The manager has been talking about this for ages, so if anyone should know it's him. What the rest of the forum says on here is really clearly not relevant. Just because the majority says something doesn't make it correct and factual. There were loads of people/masses 12 years ago on about how zonal marking doesn't work,that didn't make it actually factual.

2. The average shape of our formation also is consistent and is anything but a 4-3-3 for 2017/2018. I posted loads of examples above

So again it's not clear.

3. See the explanation below

'' It's germane to the discussion because Klopp clearly has favoured a 4-2-3-1 shape for most of his career. Knowing that, and the roles in it, will help to understand what it is we're doing on the pitch. Calling what we're doing on the pitch in most games, a "4-3-3" would mean we are talking about roles that aren't being performed on the field in relation to said shape.''



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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1869 on: December 10, 2018, 07:42:53 pm »
Excellent discussion by Carra and Neville on this on MNF.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1870 on: December 10, 2018, 08:40:55 pm »
I asked this in the other thread, but seeing as 4-3-3 is wrong, how would one differentiate -in the simplest terms possible - between the two formations we’ve played this season?

When Klopp said - after talking Shaqiri off at half time - that we reverted to our ”normal formation”, how should one describe the one we started with vs the one we played when we substituted Shaqiri for Milner?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1871 on: December 10, 2018, 09:05:58 pm »
Excellent discussion by Carra and Neville on this on MNF.

Missed it, what did they say about it?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1872 on: December 10, 2018, 09:31:11 pm »
I asked this in the other thread, but seeing as 4-3-3 is wrong, how would one differentiate -in the simplest terms possible - between the two formations we’ve played this season?

When Klopp said - after talking Shaqiri off at half time - that we reverted to our ”normal formation”, how should one describe the one we started with vs the one we played when we substituted Shaqiri for Milner?

Here are the average positions of some of our recent matches this season





And for last season scroll up a couple of posts where I posted some games from last season so you can see it for yourself visually



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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1873 on: December 10, 2018, 09:44:23 pm »
It's really not clear. If it wasn't 433 it wasn't far off from it. This whole board was referring to that shape as 433 this and last season, let's just move on , everybody knows what was meant by it.

I'd rather we didn't as I like to be educated on things like this by more knowledgeable posters. You get this stuff for free on here take it in, embrace it.
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Offline Roger Federer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1874 on: December 10, 2018, 09:52:04 pm »
I don’t deny we play a version of 4-2-3-1, but it is not the exact same version all the time, and Klopp himself said we played two formations against Southampton.

Look up the games vs West Ham and Crystal Palace and tell me that midfield has the same shape as the one recently or against Southampton. Is there no difference at all to you? Even in the ones you posted above PSG don’t look exactly like the other ones, Mane and Firmino are far ahead of the most advanced midfielder Milner, who is closer to the other midfielders.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1875 on: December 10, 2018, 09:56:19 pm »
I have attached comparisons between our game against Bournemouth last year and this past Saturday.

Look at the positions, look at the midfield in both graphs, especially where Ox and Shaqiri are.

Neither are 4-3-3.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1876 on: December 10, 2018, 09:58:47 pm »
I don’t deny we play a version of 4-2-3-1, but it is not the exact same version all the time, and Klopp himself said we played two formations against Southampton.

Look up the games vs West Ham and Crystal Palace and tell me that midfield has the same shape as the one recently or against Southampton. Is there no difference at all to you? Even in the ones you posted above PSG don’t look exactly like the other ones, Mane and Firmino are far ahead of the most advanced midfielder Milner, who is closer to the other midfielders.

Mate you are confusing what I am saying. I am not talking about this season and what formation we are using this season, I am talking about what we did last year. We weren't playing with a 4-3-3 last year, so me stating that doesn't equal to me disagreeing with you in regards to what we've done this year. I am not disagreeing that we haven't made changes this year, but what I am saying is that last season it wasn't a 4-3-3 as explained and illustrated above in various graphs

You are also confusing formations with roles, and systems.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1877 on: December 10, 2018, 10:00:05 pm »
It’s all interesting like, but we’re gonna have to reinvent every formation if you’re going by average position....
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1878 on: December 10, 2018, 10:09:09 pm »
Mate you are confusing what I am saying. I am not talking about this season and what formation we are using this season, I am talking about what we did last year. We weren't playing with a 4-3-3 last year, so me stating that doesn't equal to me disagreeing with you in regards to what we've done this year. I am not disagreeing that we haven't made changes this year, but what I am saying is that last season it wasn't a 4-3-3 as explained and illustrated above in various graphs

You are also confusing formations with roles, and systems.
I simply asked a question - I haven’t argued that we used 4-3-3. Seeing as we agree that Southampton and West Ham wasn’t the exact same shape - without going over every tactical detail - how would you describe the two? Is there a shorthand you could use in order to say that 3 of the midfielders play closer, and that Salah’s starting position is on the right instead of more obvious double pivot with Firmino directly behind Salah?

People are wrong to call it 4-3-3 so what I’m asking for is another simple term to use instead. Is there one?

Offline scalatore

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #1879 on: December 10, 2018, 10:13:08 pm »
It’s all interesting like, but we’re gonna have to reinvent every formation if you’re going by average position....

No idea what you're talking about. Any idiot can see that this is a textbook *checks notes* 4-2-3-1 formation. Or the Orion constellation. Or how my darts land around the board after about 5 pints.



Just joshing. It's all interesting. Daft thing to argue about really, but it's always fascinating when PoP weighs in on a subject.