Topic: The Klopp Template

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Cheers lads, Merry Xmas to all of you!

[Fluke]

Always, thank you guys.Likewise, I love this thread. And cheers, Fluke, you've nailed exactly where I was coming from. It was exactly this - I love the detail DeFacto and PoP have put in, and I was trying to point out how that could perhaps turn into a closing rather than an opening of conversation, which is clearly not why we're in this thread.

It shouldn't be taken as having a go and you've put it much more humbly than I did, it's been a pleasure to read all your posts.

Very kind, cheers mate!

Merry Xmas everyone!

[hesbighesred]

Happy Christmas to you all too!

[afc tukrish]

Merry Christmas... Everson (always sounds like an "s" rather than a "t" when belted out at full, raucous volume...)

[Fluke]

It depends on a load of factors - the level of pressure on the ball, whether the coach prefers consolidated defences or high-pressure defences, how far the clearance is, how quick the defenders are, how skillful they are, etc.

For instance, I almost always coach teams to press high and tight, so any long ball out is followed with a sprint towards the halfway line, which usually catches the other team offside as they try to send a ball back in. But if I have slow centre halves, then we can't do that, so we'll push up to the edge of the box and let the keeper deal with a ball over the top, and we'll keep our shape and press the ball when it arrives into our shape. It comes down to a lot of preferences and horses-for-courses a lot of the time, even within a team (remember Rodgers always saying "if our players can't get back, then they shouldn't be going forward"? Klopp probably has the same idea, except I think he makes it more of a strict rule depending on the player, rather than the vague guideline that Brendan utilised, which leaves it up to the players to figure out, but which also depends on players being smart and self-aware )

And thanks again for this!  Basically, "it depends" haha.

[BrandoLFC]

I was more interested in the current formation as it led to transfers.  Keita would be better served next to Fabinho in a midfield 2, could we then be looking to sign another left sided attacker so we're not so lopsided in going forward?  I doubt it personally but always fun to think about what's possible.

[Chris~]

I was more interested in the current formation as it led to transfers.  Keita would be better served next to Fabinho in a midfield 2, could we then be looking to sign another left sided attacker so we're not so lopsided in going forward?  I doubt it personally but always fun to think about what's possible.

There's a brazil international not enjoying his time in barcelona who fits this description perfectly.

[Kashinoda]

Not sure which thread to stick this in but an interesting note about our subs this season.

Last season our substitutes netted us an extra 0 points. I believe this is based off either a goal or assist that effected the final result.



We're currently on 7 this year.



Full article:
https://anfieldindex.com/38279/liverpool-fcs-bench-boost.html

[olihaukur]

Not sure which thread to stick this in but an interesting note about our subs this season.

Last season our substitutes netted us an extra 0 points. I believe this is based off either a goal or assist that effected the final result.

We're currently on 7 this year.

It's not something you can see as black and white as goals and assists but I think having bit of a added defensive strength in midfield has also helped us getting more points on the board as well. I think being able to put one of Henderson or Fabinho into the team during games like we've done so often this season is pretty important for us as well.

What we got from our back up forwards last season was quite bad with the likes of Sturridge, Solanke, Origi and Lallana barely having any goals between them. It wasn't going to take much to better previous season with that in mind but being able to call on someone like Shaqiri from the bench has been very handy.

[FlashGordon]

Not sure which thread to stick this in but an interesting note about our subs this season.

Last season our substitutes netted us an extra 0 points. I believe this is based off either a goal or assist that effected the final result.



We're currently on 7 this year.



Full article:
https://anfieldindex.com/38279/liverpool-fcs-bench-boost.html

Most pleasing thing about this post is Dom Solanke's xG chain as a sub. If you're in to your stats that's got to be mouth watering enough.

[PaulF]

i think one area where klopp has been outstanding is identifying and addressing our weaknesses. The heavy metal was great, but left us empty handed, so he’s added some violinists and and sopranos so now we can play classical or opera if we need to.  Has klopp always had such a varied template? Has he needed one before?

[BrandoLFC]

As was posted in the Title chase thread, 538 has us as the best team in the world.  Granted it's just numbers on a spreadsheet but to be even having that type of conversation and to do so with a straight face I think speaks volumes to what this team has become.

[killer-heels]

As was posted in the Title chase thread, 538 has us as the best team in the world.  Granted it's just numbers on a spreadsheet but to be even having that type of conversation and to do so with a straight face I think speaks volumes to what this team has become.

The key thing is keeping the team fresh, fit and at optimum so that these stats can count come March-May.

[Mr_Shane]

The second half was more like last season when we were thrashing teams left, right and center, but this time with added defensive stability, and defenders, midfielders and forwards all creating and scoring. We really have more than one string to our bow now.

[AmanShah21]

The longer Klopp has been here, the more it seems like that it isn't Klopp's template, but our template. The setup is dictated by the players and is not the starting point. He's changed season on season the shape and structure to get to where it works for THIS league and THIS squad of players and friggin hell, but we are pretty much there and its not players we are lacking, its just time and experience of playing with this group. I really hope this lot wins something because that could really spur the developmental gears and add more belief to what we already have.

[PhaseOfPlay]

The longer Klopp has been here, the more it seems like that it isn't Klopp's template, but our template. The setup is dictated by the players and is not the starting point. He's changed season on season the shape and structure to get to where it works for THIS league and THIS squad of players and friggin hell, but we are pretty much there and its not players we are lacking, its just time and experience of playing with this group. I really hope this lot wins something because that could really spur the developmental gears and add more belief to what we already have.

It's Klopp's template. We're practically playing it now.

[AmanShah21]

It's Klopp's template. We're practically playing it now.

Probably didn't phrase it quite right. I mean to say that its not a generic template wherein Klopp is trying to set us up to do things like he has always done. Its evolving with the Players and the League. There's more control and more respect to the competition. Our general philosophy is not very different, but we are more adaptible and more structured in our approach. At the end of it, Klopp's Dortmund and Klopp's Liverpool are not as similar as to be from the same "template".

Either way, doesn't matter. We're boss and that's it, the response was more philosophical than anything else.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Probably didn't phrase it quite right. I mean to say that its not a generic template wherein Klopp is trying to set us up to do things like he has always done. Its evolving with the Players and the League. There's more control and more respect to the competition. Our general philosophy is not very different, but we are more adaptible and more structured in our approach. At the end of it, Klopp's Dortmund and Klopp's Liverpool are not as similar as to be from the same "template".

Either way, doesn't matter. We're boss and that's it, the response was more philosophical than anything else.

Every coach has a template in their head that they work from. Klopp's is based - as most modern coaches are - on the 4-2-3-1 shape. Our pressing idea has been tweaked, for sure, but the roles of the players are fairly standard for that formation, although you're definitely correct that things get changed with different lineups. But the ideas are the same - someone to stretch the field, two players to create width, someone to control the middle and someone to run up and down, a second striker who has no fixed position, and a dominant centre half who marshals the defence. The only anomaly/departure so far is the keeper.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Last year with 19 games played, we scored 41 goals and conceded 23.

This year, 19 games played, we've scored 43 goals and 7 conceded.

So for all the talk about how we are not clicking how we aren't as good in the final third as last year,etc...

[rscanderlech]

Last year with 19 games played, we scored 41 goals and conceded 23.

This year, 19 games played, we've scored 43 goals and 7 conceded.

So for all the talk about how we are not clicking how we aren't as good in the final third as last year,etc...

While it's clear that we are much closer to last year's level as of the past month, I don't think that the observations you are questioning were comparing this season to ALL of last season, but specifically to the second half, in which we were remarkably efficient. (The legitimacy of such a comparison might justifiably be questioned.) Also, you will see that last season we scored 69 goals from open play/counterattacks and 11 from set pieces, whereas this season we have scored 26 from open play/counterattacks only so far, yet already 13 or something from set pieces.

So the number of open play goals looks to be down, but that's compared with the entirety of last season rather than its first half.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

While it's clear that we are much closer to last year's level as of the past month, I don't think that the observations you are questioning were comparing this season to ALL of last season, but specifically to the second half, in which we were remarkably efficient. (The legitimacy of such a comparison might justifiably be questioned.) Also, you will see that last season we scored 69 goals from open play/counterattacks and 11 from set pieces, whereas this season we have scored 26 from open play/counterattacks only so far, yet already 13 or something from set pieces.

So the number of open play goals looks to be down, but that's compared with the entirety of last season rather than its first half.

Except when people made comparisons they never made comparisons for the correct time frames, they compared the 2nd part of the season to how we started this year and never mentioned how we actually started last season in comparison to this one. Also keeping in mind, the fixtures, who we played and when, and who we had in CL group .

There was never any context to begin with.

For all of our incredibly efficiency for the 2nd part of the season [in the league] we scored only 2 more goals than we did in the first half. [41 and 43 respectfully]

 

[Red_19]

It’s simple. 1 thing. Keep VVD fit for the other 19 games and we win it. This guy is unbelievable. Suarez made me as a 11 year old fall back in love with football again after Torres broke my heart. But this guy is is the best footballer I’ve ever seen play for us. He’s unbelievable. Stay fit and we win this.

[mercurial]

Every coach has a template in their head that they work from. Klopp's is based - as most modern coaches are - on the 4-2-3-1 shape. Our pressing idea has been tweaked, for sure, but the roles of the players are fairly standard for that formation, although you're definitely correct that things get changed with different lineups. But the ideas are the same - someone to stretch the field, two players to create width, someone to control the middle and someone to run up and down, a second striker who has no fixed position, and a dominant centre half who marshals the defence. The only anomaly/departure so far is the keeper.

One thing I have noticed is that the roles and persons playing them are more interchangeable now. It is an impression only but no data to back it up. It somehow feels more fluid now. Difficult to identify who has a given role at certain times. The only constants are probably Salah and Alisson. Trent holds width mostly but Robbo is cutting inside a lot  more. The mid 3 keeps moving around in the attacking phases. Virgil is moving far more vertically than before.  firmino and mane have changed the roles that they were playing last season. More lateral and vertical movements.

[Suareznumber7]

The key thing is keeping the team fresh, fit and at optimum so that these stats can count come March-May.

I think we are still 2-3 top quality players away from being able to rotate throughout the entire side.  Another summer of good recruitment and we should be able to compete on all 4 fronts without losing much, if any, quality in our play. 

[Fluke]

One thing I have noticed is that the roles and persons playing them are more interchangeable now. It is an impression only but no data to back it up. It somehow feels more fluid now. Difficult to identify who has a given role at certain times. The only constants are probably Salah and Alisson. Trent holds width mostly but Robbo is cutting inside a lot  more. The mid 3 keeps moving around in the attacking phases. Virgil is moving far more vertically than before.  firmino and mane have changed the roles that they were playing last season. More lateral and vertical movements.

This is so true.  Our attack is so fluid, we are in great shape to take on the low block teams we used to drop points to. And like you mentioned, VVD was stepping forward and joining attacks the same way that the fullbacks do, and Fabinho was dropping, the same way he would slide over to fill the space behind a full back's run.

Klopp has talked about this many times actually, how the individual person doesn't matter at all, only the role.  There's obviously a combination of the players being intelligent enough to see someone leaving their space/role vacant and also just drilling it, but we cover for each other so efficiently. And now we are including Virgil in this.

If we are adding players in the attack through the middle occasionally, to go with the more often runs down the wing of the fullbacks, it gives these teams a lot to think about. I love it.

[SerbianScouser]

When Klopp took over I imagined his reign might last around 7 years as with his previous two clubs, where eventually his grueling style starts to erode a bit and magic gets lost.

But then this year's template of routine wins, playing mid tempo, scoring a lot of winners last half-hour of games,  rarely even getting out of our first gear gives me hope that it actually could last lot longer than 7 years because right now the template is very clear and we're so good at keeping clean sheets and being patient against mid to low blocks, with the number of match winners we have in the squad we are always good value for a goal or two in any game all the while defence keep their routine clean sheet.

This kind of style looks truly sustainable to me as opposed to mad, chaotic, full throttle football that inevitably takes toll on players. I see no reason why this current style wouldn't keep to be successful as we continue to perfect it. Come to think of it it's quite similar to how Fergie's team were getting all their routine wins without exerting themselves too much for the most part.

Never saw this coming but I'm glad we're evolving in this direction, it gives me real hope that we can continue to be this good for a very long time.

[Sangria]

Q for PoP: you mentioned elsewhere that speed is king in football. How would you rate, in terms of usefulness in a squad, someone like Ryan Kent, who is rapid across the ground, has a good pair of lungs, is technically good, but from the impression I get in Rangers forums, is still lacking tactically? Is a forward with these attributes still dependent on a certain minimum level of football intelligence before they can be useful? Is 22 too late to acquire that level if they haven't already produced good numbers at at least Championship level?

[tubby]

Is Kent really that quick?  He's not slow but I wouldn't mark him down as a speedster like Salah or Mane.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Q for PoP: you mentioned elsewhere that speed is king in football. How would you rate, in terms of usefulness in a squad, someone like Ryan Kent, who is rapid across the ground, has a good pair of lungs, is technically good, but from the impression I get in Rangers forums, is still lacking tactically? Is a forward with these attributes still dependent on a certain minimum level of football intelligence before they can be useful? Is 22 too late to acquire that level if they haven't already produced good numbers at at least Championship level?

Game intelligence fortunately can come with time as much as it can be natural. But players without it, who are slow, end up like me - as coaches

I haven't seen much of Kent at Rangers though. Haven't seen him since I used to watch the academy games on LFC TV. It's hard to tell at that age, because generally players at those ages are all as stupid as each other

On the other hand, though, it could be simply that at Rangers he's been left to figure out the game himself from his position, where he might benefit more from a Rafa type manager who gives him strict instructions on how, where, and when to move. Some players need that to fulfill their promise.

[the_red_pill]

I'm not a Football man like many of the great posters on this site so maybe they can make it clearer so I can understand what I'm looking at; but I find it amazing how Jurgen seems to have TWO visions/philosophies of how to play football and seemed to switch one off and switch the other one on- as easily as if it that first one never existed! I can't believe this is the same high-octane, high-pressing, gap-leaving machine that came before. Almost like we changed managers or almost like he's been playing a joke on everyone else!

They seem totally at odds, yet they are both being exectued to the highest, best level!

Normally, you'd have a manager who has one way of playing and even though they can vary the tactics, it's just that- a tactic. Short-lived and just for the moment. The efficiency of the tactical change being largely due to it's sudden, half-unexpected appearance; but they do not deviate from their main philosophy. Jurgen, plays an attacking, fluid and high-workrate game for 3 seasons where the emphasis is on the attack, then blam!- changes to a system based on defensive solidity and reduced pressing where the tempo is reduced and even lax at times- just like that! Gone is 4-3-3, now we're based around a defense and a nr 6!

And he breaks no sweat.
I'm trying, but I cannot see much resemblence between our team 2 seasons ago(or even last season) and this!?
Switching from a Barca/Dortmund-inspired team (minus the excellence of passing) to a ... Bob Paisley-like team? (but with inverted wide-men).

Amazing manager! Fucking outstanding!

[Yosser0_0]

In Klopp's post Arsenal match interview it sounds like he set us up to press and with Arsenal also pressing he indicated the match became a little chaotic. Then after half time with a big lead he wanted to control the game, but mentioned a few players instinctively carried on going forward to get more goals which meant they had run more metres than was necessary. This tells me that he is thinking about the endurance of the players and recognising that "heavy metal" football is not sustainable, certainly not in the Premier League which is so physically demanding.   

[rscanderlech]

I'm not a Football man like many of the great posters on this site so maybe they can make it clearer so I can understand what I'm looking at; but I find it amazing how Jurgen seems to have TWO visions/philosophies of how to play football and seemed to switch one off and switch the other one on- as easily as if it that first one never existed! I can't believe this is the same high-octane, high-pressing, gap-leaving machine that came before. Almost like we changed managers or almost like he's been playing a joke on everyone else!

They seem totally at odds, yet they are both being exectued to the highest, best level!

Normally, you'd have a manager who has one way of playing and even though they can vary the tactics, it's just that- a tactic. Short-lived and just for the moment. The efficiency of the tactical change being largely due to it's sudden, half-unexpected appearance; but they do not deviate from their main philosophy. Jurgen, plays an attacking, fluid and high-workrate game for 3 seasons where the emphasis is on the attack, then blam!- changes to a system based on defensive solidity and reduced pressing where the tempo is reduced and even lax at times- just like that! Gone is 4-3-3, now we're based around a defense and a nr 6!

And he breaks no sweat.
I'm trying, but I cannot see much resemblence between our team 2 seasons ago(or even last season) and this!?
Switching from a Barca/Dortmund-inspired team (minus the excellence of passing) to a ... Bob Paisley-like team? (but with inverted wide-men).

Amazing manager! Fucking outstanding!

I'm reminded of the brilliant Bayern Munich side that seems to be nearing its final phase with this season. Especially under Heynckes, they had such versatility. We have the basis for a team that can do amazing stuff for the next 5 years, because of that versatility. And the scary thing is that we can still improve and upgrade our squad a fair amount!

We can defend under relentless pressure, attack gung ho, control with high possession, control with high pressing and less possession... But it should be pointed out that this isn't a completely different way of playing to earlier in the season. There are some important differences in style, but the philosophy is the same.

[christofu]

In Klopp's post Arsenal match interview it sounds like he set us up to press and with Arsenal also pressing he indicated the match became a little chaotic. Then after half time with a big lead he wanted to control the game, but mentioned a few players instinctively carried on going forward to get more goals which meant they had run more metres than was necessary. This tells me that he is thinking about the endurance of the players and recognising that "heavy metal" football is not sustainable, certainly not in the Premier League which is so physically demanding.

recent games against Arsenal have been similar. Midfield control ceded for a more direct approach aimed at prodding each others weaknesses. Our defence is now better than theirs however

I didn't think we got out of 2nd gear in the second half and we control a lead these days 

[rebel23]

Does anyone know the inside story on this? How was Klopp recruited? Was is by Michael Edwards or John Henry himself?

The reason I ask is this has to go down as one of the best recruitment of a manager that I can remember.  Whoever made it deserves a promotion!

[newterp]

Does anyone know the inside story on this? How was Klopp recruited? Was is by Michael Edwards or John Henry himself?

The reason I ask is this has to go down as one of the best recruitment of a manager that I can remember.  Whoever made it deserves a promotion!

I - along with 10000000000 others - tracked his plane. I'd like to believe I played a major role.

[soxfan]

Does anyone know the inside story on this? How was Klopp recruited? Was is by Michael Edwards or John Henry himself?

The reason I ask is this has to go down as one of the best recruitment of a manager that I can remember.  Whoever made it deserves a promotion!

If it was John Henry, what are you going to promote him to? 

[rebel23]

Surely John Henry was advised by someone... who knows. I'm hoping someone can provide the answer

[LFCsupporter]

There was probably an agreement between Henry and Edwards. They were courting Klopp before appointing Rodgers in 2012.

[Djimi Smicer34]

It was Henry and Gordon, there's a really good account of the meetings and negotiations in Rafa Honigstein's book on Klopp.

[rebel23]

OK thanks guys.  mods can lock the thread if they want