Topic: The Klopp Template

[clinical]

Has anyone ever in world football made a squad this good having spent under £20m net per season? The guy is a legend. Simple as that.

[Dim Glas]

Has anyone ever in world football made a squad this good having spent under £20m net per season? The guy is a legend. Simple as that.

Not this good or this level of talent obviously, but you just have to look at the squads they built at Dortmund for pennies, when he was there to know that there's previous 

People where banging on about how brilliant Pochetinno did to take Spurs to the CL final with his squad (and yes, it was a fine achievement). But that was nothing in comparison to what Kloppo did with taking Dortmund to the final in 2013. That whole team including the subs cost about £55 mill.

Those squads at Dortmund he help build starting in 2008 and onwards till 2013 really, was partly a case of being more than the sum of their parts, not to say they didn't have some superbly talented players - they did. But it shows the level of methodical thinking and care that goes into his way of working along with an ability to trust and buy in 100% with his sporting director and scouting network. And of course, both here and at Dortmund, he's working with really fine sporting directors who help build teams in his image.

[Mr_Shane]

Indeed I seldom use the world world class, but I think Klopp is a world class manager.

He takes individual players, coaches them and makes them into a formidable team. In fact,  there is a big difference in performance when you have players like Kagawa, Coutinho, Emre Can, Nuri Sahin etc playing in a Klopp teams and when they are playing for someone else... and even more so when you consider players playing for us now. Robertson, Salah, Origi. I dare say put these players in another team and they will not look as good as they do when they play in a team coached by Klopp.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Indeed I seldom use the world world class, but I think Klopp is a world class manager.

He is now, without a doubt. Leagues, cups, and a European trophy, and if he stays in the game for another 10 years, it won't be his last.

He takes individual players, coaches them and makes them into a formidable team. In fact,  there is a big difference in performance when you have players like Kagawa, Coutinho, Emre Can, Nuri Sahin etc playing in a Klopp teams and when they are playing for someone else... and even more so when you consider players playing for us now. Robertson, Salah, Origi. I dare say put these players in another team and they will not look as good as they do when they play in a team coached by Klopp.

It's about systems and players who suit them. It's the same with Guardiola and Mourinho and Rafa. They set up systems, they get the players to fit the system, and then when those players don't play in that system anymore, they look "less".

For a historic comparison, look at players who played for Clough. Looked great under him, because he had a set way of playing, but once they left, they never looked "the same".

[PaulF]

Round pegs in round holes

[Jookie]

Round pegs in round holes

I think this is one of the key things.

I think our midfield is the biggest case in point. A lot of our fans would love to have a creative fulcrum in our midfield. A No.10 to unlock defences. A David Silva or De Bruyne style player.

Not necessarily those 2 City players but a No.10 playing in our midfield would be a square peg in a round hole. With what we ask our midfield to do, a creative No.10 is not what's needed.

It also obvious that Klopp has continually adopted his approach to the Premier League. Whether that's natural growth of the team that was planned all along or whether that's an evolution based on experience in this league we'll never know for sure. I suspect it's adaptation to the different challenges of the Premier league compared with the Bundesliga. I personally think Klopp has adapted brilliantly whilst sticking with the tactical principles that served him so well previously.

His other big asset is how he can a dressing room and an entire club together. He's done it at 3 different clubs now so it's definite a strong positive characteristic of his. Things are so much easier when the entire club (including the fans) are pushing in the same direction. You become more than the sum of your parts. Both as a team and a club. Klopp has helped engineer this culture at 3 very different clubs with 3 very different aims.

[BrandoLFC]

If we had David Silva or De Bruyne I can bet you that Klopp wouldn't then have them sit behind the full backs.  Our midfield works the way it does because of the players we have or at least the players that Klopp trusts for the whole team to perform best. 

[Suareznumber7]

Indeed I seldom use the world world class, but I think Klopp is a world class manager.

He takes individual players, coaches them and makes them into a formidable team. In fact,  there is a big difference in performance when you have players like Kagawa, Coutinho, Emre Can, Nuri Sahin etc playing in a Klopp teams and when they are playing for someone else... and even more so when you consider players playing for us now. Robertson, Salah, Origi. I dare say put these players in another team and they will not look as good as they do when they play in a team coached by Klopp.

Not only is he a world class manager but I think Klopp is 1A or 1B when talking about best managers in the world.  For me, it's him and Pep as #1A and #1B and Simeone as #3, then a gap to the rest of the best. 

[hitnrock]

If we had David Silva or De Bruyne I can bet you that Klopp wouldn't then have them sit behind the full backs.  Our midfield works the way it does because of the players we have or at least the players that Klopp trusts for the whole team to perform best.

I think this Liverpool team is at a crossroads right now. All our purchases in midfield (Fabinho as #6, Ox and Kieta as hybrid #8 & #10 similar to City) indicate a move towards Guardiola's approach as his approach conserves energy better and is simply more efficient. The only problem is his system doesn't work as well in Europe as it doesn't in England.

On the other hand our current system has proven to work for us in both English football and European football but it is much more difficult to find players that have the attitude required to play this way. As a Liverpool mid-field player you are not going to get much recognition from outside (see Wijnaldum) or even love from Liverpool fans themselves (see Henderson). This is backed up by us handing new deals to both Milner & Henderson.

If Klopp could he would freeze time and not make this decision at all and keep enjoying our current dominance in both League and CL football. I think he wants to see if we can replicate last season to decide. It would also justify not buying any new players till he's sure what he wants to do.

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[Jookie]

If we had David Silva or De Bruyne I can bet you that Klopp wouldn't then have them sit behind the full backs.  Our midfield works the way it does because of the players we have or at least the players that Klopp trusts for the whole team to perform best. 

If we had David Silva we'd even change the formation to accommodate him or play him in the front 3 (like we did with Coutinho). I think KDB is slightly different since physically he'd probably be able to handle a lot of what our midfield is asked to do. This isn't a slight on either player. Both are absolutely top level players.

If we wanted a player of the ilk of David Silva we'd try and buy one. The only player we've had like that in the entire time under Klopp is Coutinho. Coutinho played a lot more games in the front 3 than he ever did in midfield for Klopp.

[reddebs]

It also obvious that Klopp has continually adopted his approach to the Premier League.  Whether that's natural growth of the team that was planned all along or whether that's an evolution based on experience in this league we'll never know for sure.  I suspect it's adaptation to the different challenges of the Premier league compared with the Bundesliga.  I personally think Klopp has adapted brilliantly whilst sticking with the tactical principles that served him so well previously.
 

Is this possibly also something to do with our analytics team who study not just our play and players but the opposition too in greater detail than others.

I know this has always happened but I'm thinking with our physicists analysing every move from a science not football/sport pov they're seeing things that have given us an edge.

I cant remember what lfctv piece I watched but theres 2 of them sat in a room watching hours and hours of footage, then condense their findings into football terms to deliver to the coaches and players.

Taking nothing away from Jurgen as he's rolled with it and used it to his and ours advantage, if my suggestion is correct of course.


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[Roger Federer]

If we had David Silva we'd even change the formation to accommodate him or play him in the front 3 (like we did with Coutinho). I think KDB is slightly different since physically he'd probably be able to handle a lot of what our midfield is asked to do. This isn't a slight on either player. Both are absolutely top level players.

If we wanted a player of the ilk of David Silva we'd try and buy one. The only player we've had like that in the entire time under Klopp is Coutinho. Coutinho played a lot more games in the front 3 than he ever did in midfield for Klopp.

Coutinho is almost nothing like Silva though? Silva dictates the tempo of the game, building up the attacks with his clever passing, while Coutinho is much more of an indivudual player who more far more often looks for the final pass, and forces things to happen rather than building them up. He was at his best in our attack, and never really suited our midfield under Klopp. Silva seems to have (or had) better stamina as well.

[Jookie]

Coutinho is almost nothing like Silva though?

I'll agree that there are differences between the players. But 'almost nothing like' I'm not having.

I was equating Silva to Coutinho not because I think they are very similar but more so that Coutinho is probably the most similar we've had in our squad since Klopp has been here. Others may disagree. Maybe Lallana may have been a better shout.

If he'd have inhereited David Silva when joining Liverpool maybe Klopp would utilised him in the way he utilised Lallana in 2016/17. However, our team has evolved since then. Maybe because of Lallana's absences or maybe because of how the front 3 has evolved and how the midfield has changed to accommodate them. Who really knows except Klopp and his coaching staff?

I suppose my original point was agreeing with a post that Klopp fits round pegs in round holes. I exemplified our current midfield as round pegs in round holes. Despite a call from some sections of our fanbase for a creative fulcrum in midfield (and people always use City's midfield as the example), I think we have a very good balance in midfield that offers protection to our back 4, allows the full backs to push on and affords the front 3 to the opportunity 'cheat' on a lot of occasions and aid our rapid transitions when the opposition play breaks down.

Based on that I think David Silva wouldn't be effective in this Liverpool midfield. And this Liverpool midfield wouldn't be as effective with David Silva in it. The counter argument exists for our midfielders being substituted into City's different tactical system.

[hesbighesred]

Round pegs in round holes

Sort of. He fits attributes to roles exceptionally well, that's for sure (also helped by our analytics, I think). But not in a conventional sense - Lallana as an 8, Bobby as our 9, Salah as our main scorer, Gini as a midfield fulcrum who actually performs a more defensive role for us, Milner the FB, Henderson the DM...there's all kinds of examples of players performing and often excelling in positions that they hadn't previously been associated with.

[Roger Federer]

I'll agree that there are differences between the players. But 'almost nothing like' I'm not having.

I was equating Silva to Coutinho not because I think they are very similar but more so that Coutinho is probably the most similar we've had in our squad since Klopp has been here. Others may disagree. Maybe Lallana may have been a better shout.

If he'd have inhereited David Silva when joining Liverpool maybe Klopp would utilised him in the way he utilised Lallana in 2016/17. However, our team has evolved since then. Maybe because of Lallana's absences or maybe because of how the front 3 has evolved and how the midfield has changed to accommodate them. Who really knows except Klopp and his coaching staff?

I suppose my original point was agreeing with a post that Klopp fits round pegs in round holes. I exemplified our current midfield as round pegs in round holes. Despite a call from some sections of our fanbase for a creative fulcrum in midfield (and people always use City's midfield as the example), I think we have a very good balance in midfield that offers protection to our back 4, allows the full backs to push on and affords the front 3 to the opportunity 'cheat' on a lot of occasions and aid our rapid transitions when the opposition play breaks down.

Based on that I think David Silva wouldn't be effective in this Liverpool midfield. And this Liverpool midfield wouldn't be as effective with David Silva in it. The counter argument exists for our midfielders being substituted into City's different tactical system.

Maybe Silva now at his age wouldn't, but I see no problem fitting De Bruyne or Bernardo Silva into Klopp's midfield. Maybe the attacking output of our fullbacks would go down slightly to accomodate it, but I'm not sure this is Klopp's ideal midfield. A Klopp midfielder need stamina, tactical awareness and be a hard worker for sure, but if you can get that at a very good level while having greater technical skill, I think he'd prefer it that way. A peak Silva I think meets his requirement despite not being the most intimidating player, and certainly De Bruyne does.

As you say, Lallana was a regular before injuries hit, and Chamberlain was a starter in the big games before his injury. They are not really that similar to Silva either, I admit, but in my opinon closer than Coutinho. I view the latter as a forward, at his absolute best in the final moments, while Lallana, Silva and Chamberlain are more allround, and most importantly sees the game as midfielders, not attackers. We'll see though. I think we'll view our midfield and what Klopp wants from them, a bit differently if Chamberlain and Keita ever reach full fitness at the same time. While it still wont be exactly the same as Guardiola's, I believe it will be closer to it than we saw for most of last year. It's the one area of his team I think can evolve further anyway - goalkeeper, defence, and attack is pretty much as good as you can get.

[PoetryInMotion]

Not this good or this level of talent obviously, but you just have to look at the squads they built at Dortmund for pennies, when he was there to know that there's previous 

People where banging on about how brilliant Pochetinno did to take Spurs to the CL final with his squad (and yes, it was a fine achievement). But that was nothing in comparison to what Kloppo did with taking Dortmund to the final in 2013. That whole team including the subs cost about £55 mill.

Those squads at Dortmund he help build starting in 2008 and onwards till 2013 really, was partly a case of being more than the sum of their parts, not to say they didn't have some superbly talented players - they did. But it shows the level of methodical thinking and care that goes into his way of working along with an ability to trust and buy in 100% with his sporting director and scouting network. And of course, both here and at Dortmund, he's working with really fine sporting directors who help build teams in his image.

I'm not one who lingers on hate stuff from other fans, and I rarely go checking them out, but a few days back I just browsed through some forums randomly and certain other fan forums (quite a few of those from various clubs) are hell bent on claiming that we've spent a lot and are putting us in the bracket of close to or next to Man City and are explaining away our successes that way. Any mentions of net spend (by others of their own or some resident LFC fans) get dismissed in those forums, and I'm genuinely curious on why they're dismissed as such just because we spent quite a sum money in one window.

Also, it seems FSG are pumping money. Yes, they lent us low/free of interest for expansions, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be repaid. I don't know why so many think we've been spending lots of money at all.

[hesbighesred]

I think we'll view our midfield and what Klopp wants from them a bit differently if Chamberlain and Keita ever reach full fitness at the same time.

Agreed. I mean, their presence (along with Lallana's) in the squad certainly suggests that we haven't seen the final evolution of our midfield as yet, but equally they're like Schroedinger's midfielders at the moment...until they get fit enough for long enough to be available enough to fight their way into the team we have no choice but to consider them both the ideal and the unused. The kind of midfields that Klopp actually has consistently picked also tells us that pure creativity isn't the be-all and end-all that he looks for in those roles either.

I suspect you're  right that the key to it is getting more creativity but without sacrificing the solidity, which is obviously where Keita makes so much sense - we have a player there who, potentially, presses like an absolute monster and takes full advantage of the kind of midfield shape our high defensive line can provide, while also posting attacking numbers that compete with dedicated number 10s.

Perhaps more than anything else what both Keita and Ox offer that we do really miss is someone who can change the oppositions shape by breaking lines with their dribbling ability. When we don't have that, it means Salah/Mane end up doing some of that work themselves, when in an ideal world it'd be nice to have both of them focused on beating the line/last man.

[Dim Glas]

I'm not one who lingers on hate stuff from other fans, and I rarely go checking them out, but a few days back I just browsed through some forums randomly and certain other fan forums (quite a few of those from various clubs) are hell bent on claiming that we've spent a lot and are putting us in the bracket of close to or next to Man City and are explaining away our successes that way. Any mentions of net spend (by others of their own or some resident LFC fans) get dismissed in those forums, and I'm genuinely curious on why they're dismissed as such just because we spent quite a sum money in one window.

Also, it seems FSG are pumping money. Yes, they lent us low/free of interest for expansions, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be repaid. I don't know why so many think we've been spending lots of money at all.

It's the new 'He hasn't won any trophies' default response for fans of other clubs, now that Kloppo's won the biggest trophy of all at Liverpool.

So they can't throw that one out now, so they have turned to the spending. It's funny really, some have convinced themselves that Liverpool have spent as much as Man City.  When the fact is, since Kloppo has been here, the club has spent less than Everton. (And obviously less than the likes of Man Utd, City, Chelsea and even Arsenal).

Some just don't want to conceded how damn good he is at his job, despite the evidence from all 3 clubs he's been at. I guess a lot comes down to bitterness with some fanbases cos they think 'what could have been'. 

[PoetryInMotion]

If we had David Silva we'd even change the formation to accommodate him or play him in the front 3 (like we did with Coutinho). I think KDB is slightly different since physically he'd probably be able to handle a lot of what our midfield is asked to do. This isn't a slight on either player. Both are absolutely top level players.

If we wanted a player of the ilk of David Silva we'd try and buy one. The only player we've had like that in the entire time under Klopp is Coutinho. Coutinho played a lot more games in the front 3 than he ever did in midfield for Klopp.

Even now, De Bruyne has been getting repetitive injuries at City for a while now. At Liverpool, the work-rate expected of him will be like that of Henderson and Wijnaldum which is more than what he is doing now. It'll be a little bit similar to having Coutinho in midfield which we did for a while and it didn't give the best of results defensively, even if our creativity increased (albeit not much from what we have currently).

All in all, I think we have a much better balance now than we have ever had before.

City play the way they do, because they want their attacking midfielders in the half spaces while their wide players stay wide more. We play the way we do because we want our forwards (wide attackers - say Salah and Mane) to occupy the half spaces initially and then make runs behind the defenders, hence our full-backs take the wide spaces because we don't want our midfielders wide (although Milner does this).

Considering all that, those who expect us to drastically change how we play or play more like City even when having a couple more of creative midfielders could get disappointed.

[PoetryInMotion]

It's the new 'He hasn't won any trophies' default response for fans of other clubs, now that Kloppo's won the biggest trophy of all at Liverpool.

So they can't throw that one out now, so they have turned to the spending. It's funny really, some have convinced themselves that Liverpool have spent as much as Man City.  When the fact is, since Kloppo has been here, the club has spent less than Everton. (And obviously less than the likes of Man Utd, City, Chelsea and even Arsenal).

Some just don't want to conceded how damn good he is at his job, despite the evidence from all 3 clubs he's been at. I guess a lot comes down to bitterness with some fanbases cos they think 'what could have been'.

Exactly.

[Son of Spion]

It's the new 'He hasn't won any trophies' default response for fans of other clubs, now that Kloppo's won the biggest trophy of all at Liverpool.

So they can't throw that one out now, so they have turned to the spending. It's funny really, some have convinced themselves that Liverpool have spent as much as Man City.  When the fact is, since Kloppo has been here, the club has spent less than Everton. (And obviously less than the likes of Man Utd, City, Chelsea and even Arsenal).

Some just don't want to conceded how damn good he is at his job, despite the evidence from all 3 clubs he's been at. I guess a lot comes down to bitterness with some fanbases cos they think 'what could have been'.

Exactly right. Some people simply refuse to acknowledge just how good Klopp and Liverpool are. This accusation is simply the new stick to try to beat us with because the old one is now defunct. The fact it's untrue doesn't really matter to these people. It's just willful ignorance on their part and stems from jealousy, bitterness and desperation.

It's sad really. When you have to resort to this kind of thing to feel ok, then you have problems.

[BrandoLFC]

It's a 4 game sample size so far so nothing is certain but going by last year our midfield played very differently when Keita was on the field and the year before when Coutinho or Ox was on the field.  To then say that Klopp wouldn't adjust for Silva or KdB just isn't factual as far as we know.  That's not to say we'd play exactly like City as we wouldn't.  But in Klopp's own way the setup of the team would change.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Liverpool, Ceballos says, was quite a lesson. It takes him a moment to order his thoughts. “I’ve never seen anything like what I saw at Anfield; I haven’t seen a team that plays better, that presses like them, the way the fans carry them along.

“They take the air from you. You spend so much time defending and when you want to do something with the ball, when you want to breathe, they’re back on top of you. They’re very well-drilled.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/sep/12/dani-ceballos-arsenal-real-madrid-hardly-any-difference-anfield

Damn straight

[sms1986]

Exactly right. Some people simply refuse to acknowledge just how good Klopp and Liverpool are. This accusation is simply the new stick to try to beat us with because the old one is now defunct. The fact it's untrue doesn't really matter to these people. It's just willful ignorance on their part and stems from jealousy, bitterness and desperation.

It's sad really. When you have to resort to this kind of thing to feel ok, then you have problems.

Personally, I couldn't care less what rivals think of Klopp and Liverpool.

[keyop]

I'm not one who lingers on hate stuff from other fans, and I rarely go checking them out, but a few days back I just browsed through some forums randomly and certain other fan forums (quite a few of those from various clubs) are hell bent on claiming that we've spent a lot and are putting us in the bracket of close to or next to Man City and are explaining away our successes that way. Any mentions of net spend (by others of their own or some resident LFC fans) get dismissed in those forums, and I'm genuinely curious on why they're dismissed as such just because we spent quite a sum money in one window.

Also, it seems FSG are pumping money. Yes, they lent us low/free of interest for expansions, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be repaid. I don't know why so many think we've been spending lots of money at all.

Firstly, I've no idea why anyone spends time on rival forums and then acts surprised at what they find. You'll hardly find posts saying how well we've done considering our net spend.

Secondly, a lot of football fans are ignorant and will ignore facts when it doesn't suit their argument - its bad enough on here, so we certainly can't expect rival fans to be rational. They'll quote the Virgil or Alisson fees but forget the Coutinho or CL income (selective stupidity). There's mountains of evidence freely available on what each club has spent over the last 10 years, and we're about £600m behind City in expenditure over that period, and a colossal £894m behind on net spend (and a fair distance behind Utd and Chelsea).

https://www.givemesport.com/1500536-the-top-20-biggest-spenders-in-football-since-200910

The reason its dismissed is simply because they're not Liverpool fans. Anyone that can't see that £1.52bn spent on players in 10 years is essentially buying the league is delusional, as are any fans that choose to ignore net spend as a relative barometer of success.

Thirdly, Klopp's template has worked at Mainz, Dortmund, and now here, and rival fans are worried that we're coming to the top of the hill and are going to stay there for a while. As the saying goes, there's one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. No-one is the media or anywhere else has mentioned Spurs, Chelsea, Utd, or Arsenal as challengers for around 18 months, as they're not even in the conversation anymore. We should take every criticism and rant as flattery, because it means other fans are jealous or worried (or probably both).

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

https://www.givemesport.com/1500536-the-top-20-biggest-spenders-in-football-since-200910

We should take every criticism and rant as flattery, because it means other fans are jealous or worried (or probably both).

Wow, so our net spend over a 10 year period is just £42m more than Everton. £4.2m per season.
No wonder they come up with ever more convoluted ways of rationalising our success.

[keyop]

Wow, so our net spend over a 10 year period is just £42m more than Everton. £4.2m per season.
No wonder they come up with ever more convoluted ways of rationalising our success.

Indeed. And if that table was re-ordered by net spend instead of expenditure, we'd drop to 12th in Europe.

Not bad for a team that's won the Champions league and been to another final in the last 2 years.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Net spend is a function of both sales plus purchases, though. As such, it is attached to the value you are able to create around the players you can sell, as much as the players you can buy. Expenditure, though, tells us how much you can actually afford to spend. To suggest we haven't spent a lot of money simply because of low net spend, is not really accurate - we've spent large sums of money on a defender and a goalkeeper. And those two players have helped us to finish close second in the league, and win a Champions League trophy. I don't think it's inaccurate for other supporters to recognise that. It's the way of the football world - if you can't recruit talent early or on the cheap with som luck, then you're going to have to pay the high price for it, and only a few clubs can afford to do that.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

^ I think there's enough direct quotes to suggest that we probably wouldn't have bought Van Dijk and Allison had we not sold Coutinho for the amount we did.
If we still had Coutinho and hadn't bought those 2, the net spend would be similar to its current level, but because we did, the buy and sell figures are about £140m higher but the net spend's the same.

There's no doubt that we have considerably more buying power than most clubs, but were we have, and continue to be disadvantaged is that the likes of City can keep on buying without selling valuable players and we can't.
Maybe this will change if we keep growing commercially and keep selling our younger or unwanted players for decent fees rather than paying them to leave like we did in the past.

[PhaseOfPlay]

^ I think there's enough direct quotes to suggest that we probably wouldn't have bought Van Dijk and Allison had we not sold Coutinho for the amount we did.
If we still had Coutinho and hadn't bought those 2, the net spend would be similar to its current level, but because we did, the buy and sell figures are about £140m higher but the net spend's the same.

For sure, but we had that buying power BECAUSE we could sell a player for the 140 mill we generated. So we're not the poor relations "sticking it to the man" by putting in trophy-challenging performances on a shoestring budget, as it seems like some want to portray us. At the same time, we can't generate money out of thin air. We're a well-run club, but we're at the higher end of the value scale, so we can afford to spend large sums on individual players (and their wages!) BECAUSE we add value to the cheaper players we bring in. We aren't poor relations by any means

There's no doubt that we have considerably more buying power than most clubs, but were we have, and continue to be disadvantaged is that the likes of City can keep on buying without selling valuable players and we can't.
Maybe this will change if we keep growing commercially and keep selling our younger or unwanted players for decent fees rather than paying them to leave like we did in the past.

100% agree.

[keyop]

Net spend is a function of both sales plus purchases, though. As such, it is attached to the value you are able to create around the players you can sell, as much as the players you can buy. Expenditure, though, tells us how much you can actually afford to spend. To suggest we haven't spent a lot of money simply because of low net spend, is not really accurate - we've spent large sums of money on a defender and a goalkeeper. And those two players have helped us to finish close second in the league, and win a Champions League trophy. I don't think it's inaccurate for other supporters to recognise that. It's the way of the football world - if you can't recruit talent early or on the cheap with som luck, then you're going to have to pay the high price for it, and only a few clubs can afford to do that.

But the argument from rivals (which the poster stated) is that we're just spending our way to success, which isn't the true picture. We could only afford to spend because we generated income - not because we could just spend whatever we wanted.

If I have to sell my £250,000 house to buy a bigger and better £500,000 house, I can't simply be accused of spending £500,000, as I've sold to buy. I've actually 'spent' £250,000 on the new asset in terms of net spend. City, Chelsea, Utd and others just keep the £250,000 house and go out and buy several £500,000 houses.

The Coutinho money plus Champions league run in 2017/18 were worth over £200m (£140m of which directly or indirectly funded VVD and Alisson), leaving enough to even cover a Keita or Fabinho. We therefore developed an £8m player to such a level that we were able to sell him and buy two players who are now the world's best in their positions. That's the polar opposite of City's approach and indeed of Chelsea, Utd, and even Arsenal now.

We've therefore not just blown a load of cash to buy success, but have taken the opportunity to strengthen in key areas following the sale of a key player and an impressive run in Europe's best competition. The fact that we didn't spend all the money on a replacement for him is a sign of a club run well, and any competitive advantage we have gained is largely due to our exemplary transfer dealings under Klopp and Edwards rather than pure spending power alone.

Its not inaccurate for other supporters to highlight our spending but it should be in context, and its completely inaccurate to even put us in the same bracket as City, Utd or Chelsea.

[PoetryInMotion]

Firstly, I've no idea why anyone spends time on rival forums and then acts surprised at what they find. You'll hardly find posts saying how well we've done considering our net spend.

Secondly, a lot of football fans are ignorant and will ignore facts when it doesn't suit their argument - its bad enough on here, so we certainly can't expect rival fans to be rational. They'll quote the Virgil or Alisson fees but forget the Coutinho or CL income (selective stupidity). There's mountains of evidence freely available on what each club has spent over the last 10 years, and we're about £600m behind City in expenditure over that period, and a colossal £894m behind on net spend (and a fair distance behind Utd and Chelsea).

https://www.givemesport.com/1500536-the-top-20-biggest-spenders-in-football-since-200910

The reason its dismissed is simply because they're not Liverpool fans. Anyone that can't see that £1.52bn spent on players in 10 years is essentially buying the league is delusional, as are any fans that choose to ignore net spend as a relative barometer of success.

Thirdly, Klopp's template has worked at Mainz, Dortmund, and now here, and rival fans are worried that we're coming to the top of the hill and are going to stay there for a while. As the saying goes, there's one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. No-one is the media or anywhere else has mentioned Spurs, Chelsea, Utd, or Arsenal as challengers for around 18 months, as they're not even in the conversation anymore. We should take every criticism and rant as flattery, because it means other fans are jealous or worried (or probably both).

I think if you find yourself reading forums of clubs who are not our rivals (Everton & Man United & maybe Man City due to current title situation), you can be surprised at what you read. You don't expect the kind of stuff you see from non rival club fans. Maybe that's where I was surprised?

I did say that I'm one who rarely checks those forums out, so you could leave some leeway there in your 1st point.

As for your 2nd point, I think anything can be dismissed by claiming football fans are ignorant and delusional, as true as it maybe, that's probably not where I wanted to head to in my initial post 

As for the 3rd point, I agree.

[PhaseOfPlay]

But the argument from rivals (which the poster stated) is that we're just spending our way to success, which isn't the true picture. We could only afford to spend because we generated income - not because we could just spend whatever we wanted.

We are though. The problem for other supporters, is that so are their clubs. All clubs are. You HAVE to spend for top level talent. That's the game. If it were all down to coaching, there would be no transfer fees.

[Son of Spion]

Personally, I couldn't care less what rivals think of Klopp and Liverpool.

I couldn't either, although I do enjoy the psychology of the mental gymnastics and delusion that they exhibit.

All I really care about is the fact we have a great club, a great team, a great manager and a great big silver pot in the cabinet. 

[Dim Glas]

I couldn't either, although I do enjoy the psychology of the mental gymnastics and delusion that they exhibit.

All I really care about is the fact we have a great club, a great team, a great manager and a great big silver pot in the cabinet. 

And plenty of Liverpool fans used to do the same, as we too spenty plenty pre-Klopp, but bought so poorly too often under Rodgers and Kenny before him. So I guess it comes from a position of understanding in a way seeing them do what we did just a very few short years ago. Trying to pile on pressures and wind up fans of teams who did it far better at the time! It is frustraing to see your team spend a lot but fail to climb the ladder, that is where many of these fans are with their teams. Probably comforts them to turn their wrath at other teams, and twists themselves in knots to make a non existant point.

[PhaseOfPlay]

And plenty of Liverpool fans used to do the same, as we too spenty plenty pre-Klopp, but bought so poorly too often under Rodgers and Kenny before him. So I guess it comes from a position of understanding in a way seeing them do what we did just a very few short years ago. Trying to pile on pressures and wind up fans of teams who did it far better at the time! It is frustraing to see your team spend a lot but fail to climb the ladder, that is where many of these fans are with their teams. Probably comforts them to turn their wrath at other teams, and twists themselves in knots to make a non existant point.

The difference though, is that under Kenny and Rodgers, we weren't always trying to break the bank. We were trying to be clever (too clever at times) with our purchases, whether they were for small money or big money. Other clubs are now looking at us and their fans are seeing the sums and going "wish we had that", or "they're just spending their way to success". But the reality is that under Klopp we're truly buying for a system of play, with now fudging of ideas and no compromise on the vision. THEN, we pay what we need to pay to get it. That's the difference between Liverpool now and almost everyone else in the Premier League

[keyop]

We are though. The problem for other supporters, is that so are their clubs. All clubs are. You HAVE to spend for top level talent. That's the game. If it were all down to coaching, there would be no transfer fees.

You're right, I guess what meant is that we have sold then spent our way to success instead of just continually spending. We also need to consider how little we spent on other players that were a core part of a title challenge and champions league win. Trent, Matip, Milner, Gomez and Robertson cost £16m combined yet at least four of those would walk into most PL sides. We also turned our front 3 into world class players and Wijnaldum would be around £60m in today's market. Buying success as City have done is spending big on tailor made solutions for each position, with expensive backups on the bench.

We've spent big to address some gaps but our success is about coaching more than spending. Almost all of our players (including Virgil) have only reached their true potential with us, which is why I don't think we've bought success in the same way City have (or the way Chelsea did in previous years).

[afc tukrish]

We've spent big to address some gaps but our success is about coaching more than spending. 

The spending has been in support of the coaching, on a multitude of levels...

[PhaseOfPlay]

You're right, I guess what meant is that we have sold then spent our way to success instead of just continually spending. We also need to consider how little we spent on other players that were a core part of a title challenge and champions league win. Trent, Matip, Milner, Gomez and Robertson cost £16m combined yet at least four of those would walk into most PL sides. We also turned our front 3 into world class players and Wijnaldum would be around £60m in today's market. Buying success as City have done is spending big on tailor made solutions for each position, with expensive backups on the bench.

We've spent big to address some gaps but our success is about coaching more than spending. Almost all of our players (including Virgil) have only reached their true potential with us, which is why I don't think we've bought success in the same way City have (or the way Chelsea did in previous years).

It's not. And I say that as a coach. If it were coaching, we wouldn't have needed to buy Van Dijk or Becker.

[Hazell]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/sep/12/dani-ceballos-arsenal-real-madrid-hardly-any-difference-anfield

Damn straight

Love that. Gives me warm fuzzy feeling about how good we are these.