Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[redgriffin73]

Hopper will book him so he will get a touchline ban for the Wolves game

I was sure Tierney would find a way to send him off on Sunday just out of spite.

[mikey_LFC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

[redgriffin73]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

[mikey_LFC]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

Also, the VAR should be able to be used on all decisions, but it doesn’t need to be the whole big ceremony that’s around it now, they can just say, “That corner should be a goal kick.” And the ref can correct their call, before the set piece is taken. It takes seconds to check these things, shorter than set pieces generally take.

It comes down to the referees not sharing the same opinion on decisions, when they should be able to trust that their colleague on the VAR is making the decision they would with the same information. If there’s that distrust and difference, then something in the system is wrong.

Either the ref should simply be able to hold the play when the VAR suspect a decision is wrong, or we should do away with it and just put up with on the field decisions, because having someone with multiple angles and plenty of time make bad decisions due to a not clear and obvious defence is maddening. If we do the latter then we can just wait until technology improves to give clear decisions in aspects, like goal-line technology and the developing automated offside that could come in at some point.

Rewriting the rules for the new age to add clarity seems the place to start, beginning with what constitutes handball, what frame should be used for offsides and what level of force/intent is necessary for a foul? Something as simple as saying, only deliberate handballs are to be given as fouls when below the shoulder, whereas all handballs above the shoulder are a foul, with pictures/videos of the handballs deemed to be deliberate, below the shoulder, and a clear line drawn to show what constitutes above the shoulder. The whole, natural body shape line is just more subjective wording that is unnecessary.

[BoRed]

Are we the only country to use C&O as a thing? It really needs fucking off.

"The ref got it wrong, but VAR was right not to intervene."

That short sentence perfectly sums up how stupid the whole thing is.

[JRed]

"The ref got it wrong, but VAR was right not to intervene."

That short sentence perfectly sums up how stupid the whole thing is.

Yep. It’s also their get out clause to do whatever the fuck they want.

[Fromola]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

Because it's the nature of football - decisions are so subjective. Especially on penalty decisions. One of the things that makes VAR unworkable.

[Knight]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

Much of the rule book is inherently subjective. That’s how football rules work much of the time. Referees are asked to use their judgement. The solution, as it’s been for years, is to bin VAR for many of the things we currently use it for. We won’t improve the state of officiating but we will improve the experience of both playing and watching.

[mikey_LFC]

Because it's the nature of football - decisions are so subjective. Especially on penalty decisions. One of the things that makes VAR unworkable.

I think that’s just a lazy cliché. It’s only the nature of football because the rules are poorly written.

Much of the rule book is inherently subjective. That’s how football rules work much of the time. Referees are asked to use their judgement. The solution, as it’s been for years, is to bin VAR for many of the things we currently use it for. We won’t improve the state of officiating but we will improve the experience of both playing and watching.

Binning VAR is only a partial solution. The rule book being subjective is still a problem whichever route we go down. I don’t agree it’s an inherent issue though. It’s just a historical one.

[Knight]

I think that’s just a lazy cliché. It’s only the nature of football because the rules are poorly written.

Binning VAR is only a partial solution. The rule book being subjective is still a problem whichever route we go down. I don’t agree it’s an inherent issue though. It’s just a historical one.

Yeah interesting. I think I’d probably argue that officiating by judgment, and those playing accepting the authority of the ref to adjudicate based on his judgment, is inherent not just to the rule book but to the nature of the game itself. But I’d have to think through how to articulate it clearly!

[mikey_LFC]

Yeah interesting. I think I’d probably argue that officiating by judgment, and those playing accepting the authority of the ref to adjudicate based on his judgment, is inherent not just to the rule book but to the nature of the game itself. But I’d have to think through how to articulate it clearly!

I understand where you’re coming from and agree to an extent. In my mind, it’s similar to how football is evolving. A footballer can play on instinct and do well in that regard, or they can be coached away from their instincts so that they operate as a team, as we see Guardiola do so often. Whilst, I’d rather watch footballers in the first category, I’d prefer referees in the second, since the second is designed to increase the order in a system and reduce variation in outcome.

The way I see it, you’d want the PGMOL acting like one big bald hive mind with complete understanding of the rules with a single interpretation achieved through training. The human element is understanding the lapses away from this where instinct takes over but in general, the process should increase consistency.

In general, I think there’s loads that can be done to improve relations between refs, teams and supporters with many of the problems stemming from legacy issues. For instance, I think there’s a conversation to be had around whether the penalty box is the right shape and whether it’s current shape causes problems due to a discrepancy between punishment and crime, as it were. These conversations don’t seem to happen though, and the lack of evolution in these areas eventually causes quite a large issue.

[JRed]

Maybe the rules need to be made clearer? I’ll start:

Kick someone in chest in penalty area - Penalty.
Play basketball in own area - Penalty
Score an onside goal with no foul in build up - Goal
Ball in play and goal keeper throws ball onto ground inviting attacker to try to score - Play on
Goal keeper charges out of goal feet first, and snaps opponent in half - Red card

It’s really not that difficult.

[mikey_LFC]

Maybe the rules need to be made clearer? I’ll start:

Kick someone in chest in penalty area - Penalty.
Play basketball in own area - Penalty
Score an onside goal with no foul in build up - Goal
Ball in play and goal keeper throws ball onto ground inviting attacker to try to score - Play on
Goal keeper charges out of goal feet first, and snaps opponent in half - Red card

It’s really not that difficult.

No doubt there are blatant blunders, often against us, but they are only one issue, and there is a greater problem than that with teams / supporters constantly frustrated throughout the game, and in every game. Plus the nonsense around clear and obvious provides a get out to refs in all areas. Removes any accountability.

[JRed]

No doubt there are blatant blunders, often against us, but they are only one issue, and there is a greater problem than that with teams / supporters constantly frustrated throughout the game, and in every game.

It’s a starting point.
If they can’t/ don’t want to get them decisions right then there’s no chance with the other ones and the lot of them need fucking off.
They have deliberately caused so much confusion so they can do whatever the fuck they want and gaslight their way out of it.

[wenlock]

It should have been such a simple thing. We had rules that had stood the test of time and were not really broken but they fixed them anyway and here we are.

All they had to do was copy other sports and use tv to rid us of the odd howler but here we are.

Refs simply have too much influence on games now and are looking more corrupt then incompetant. It should be pretty much impossible to come to some of the decisions they have with tv helping them. What are the appologists seeing moments or hours later at pmgol that a team of various officials (close to 10 now?) cant see with the help of multiple screens in a purpose built VAR hub?

When they spend over 5 mins pouring over something and still get it wrong! When they abandon logical things and replace with problematic things, like goalkicks needing to be kicked outside the 18 yard box which causes a 'schoolboy error' being ignored by a ref in a chaps league game. It is not his job to do that it's his job to applt the rules evenly and fairly and it's the players jobs to make sure they don't do any schoolboy errors.

Same thing with the recent stupidety in our game from Taylor, it was his job to ref the game and not save the goalkeepers blunder.

So many silly rule tweaks over recent years. If players are abusing a rule then punish them ffs, should be easier now with tv. Like the head injuries rule, like holding at corners, like feigning injury, like waving imaginary cards. Offsides are stupid with rules that change depending on the teams concerned. Subs coming on also plays taps in to that depends on the teams involved vibe too. Sometimes a match seems to pause while a sub gets stripped (why?) and then comes on while others have players being hurried off to save time.

I thought the whole point of pro refs was to make things better but they can't even train them to a similar standard, so consitency is much more erratic. A simple example of that was a few weeks back man city played arsenal and I think we played brighton. Anyway the point is that our game has a ref giving any contact as a foul while their game had a cage match feel with a missing ref.

The knock on affect is/was some teams don't pick up cards as often as they should while others get them when they shouldn't.

It should have been such a simple thing.

[tray fenny]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3g8ejvezv3o

Stuff like this is really poor, in my opinion. How can a panel be so split on so many incident, and how can we be in a situation where they can vote a decision as wrong but say it shouldn’t be overturned? Does any other sport have situations like this, where a decision is deemed too subjective to overturn?

I think as a sport we need to move towards more clearly defined rules that eliminate the subjectivity, or at least have a group of officials trained to overcome their natural perspective to ensure as a group they can officiate consistently. That is surely what their training should be about, and we shouldn’t have to rely on the whims of each referee to determine the rules.

good post

[stoa]

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

The problem with that "C&O"-approach is that it doesn't avoid re-refereeing the game, it's the complete opposite. With the way PGMOL are approaching this whole thing, the VAR is essentially making the decision in most cases. He's re-refereeing the game. He's the one saying "A kick in the chest is not a penalty, because both players go in high". It's not the ref making the decision based on all the facts, it's the VAR saying "The ref was right" or "The ref was wrong". That's what I don't get about this whole thing and how this isn't pointed out in the media.

The approach you're describing is the one I want to see (and is also the one that seems to be the intention in the VAR protocol). The VAR should be part of the team and provide the ref with enough information to make a call. The way VAR is used at the moment, it's not. That's why we haven't heard sentences like "Mate, Odegaard's hand never was on the floor, it looks more like he's using it to deflect the ball, maybe you should take another look at it" or "I'm not sure it's just two players coming together competing for a ball, Doku's leg is dangerously high and he hits MacAllister in the chest. I suggest you take a look yourself". At the moment, the communication is basically "Delay, delay, delay, checking a possible penalty" then the folks in the VAR-room talk amongst themselves and then it's "Check complete". It's just so wrong.

[tray fenny]

The whole idea is ridiculous. It comes from people not wanting the game to be re-referee’d but the VAR is just another assistant for the ref with more info. VAR making a call is just like the linesman putting up their flag, or the fourth official letting the ref know about an incident they’ve missed. They should just work as a team, and come to the right decision with all the information at their disposal.

Also, the VAR should be able to be used on all decisions, but it doesn’t need to be the whole big ceremony that’s around it now, they can just say, “That corner should be a goal kick.” And the ref can correct their call, before the set piece is taken. It takes seconds to check these things, shorter than set pieces generally take.

It comes down to the referees not sharing the same opinion on decisions, when they should be able to trust that their colleague on the VAR is making the decision they would with the same information. If there’s that distrust and difference, then something in the system is wrong.

Either the ref should simply be able to hold the play when the VAR suspect a decision is wrong, or we should do away with it and just put up with on the field decisions, because having someone with multiple angles and plenty of time make bad decisions due to a not clear and obvious defence is maddening. If we do the latter then we can just wait until technology improves to give clear decisions in aspects, like goal-line technology and the developing automated offside that could come in at some point.

Rewriting the rules for the new age to add clarity seems the place to start, beginning with what constitutes handball, what frame should be used for offsides and what level of force/intent is necessary for a foul? Something as simple as saying, only deliberate handballs are to be given as fouls when below the shoulder, whereas all handballs above the shoulder are a foul, with pictures/videos of the handballs deemed to be deliberate, below the shoulder, and a clear line drawn to show what constitutes above the shoulder. The whole, natural body shape line is just more subjective wording that is unnecessary.

again on the money

[RyanBabel19]

IMO There is one and literally only one way VAR could work...

Referees drop the ego and mission to prove themselves right and just make decisions for the good of the game. Clear and obvious has always been a way to protect officials long held belief that they always know better and are above question. The whole system is set up so that they cannot be questioned and the whataboutery and mental gymnastics make for a 'anything but admitting we need to be a lot better' type of stance.

Give an apology that fixes nothing, 'by the letter of the law' , 'he's used his common sense', dont want VAR to re-referee games, the ref cant win there... I could go on

Were they to have an approach in which decisions are looked and and correctly swiftly 'Andy you've called a goal kick, it actually hit the defender on the way out, it should be a corner' as an example, things would run so swiftly.

They spend too much time begging for sympathy and looking down on the rest of us like we haven't got a clue. There's always an excuse and consistency is what people often expect most. Weekly we see insane calls and it changes so often it's actually crazy. What's handball and a penalty today will be 'the arm was in a natural position' the following week.

They should sit down with a panel WEEKLY after each round of games, go through the decisions and analyse how they can improve consistency and decision making taking into account both the laws of the game and common sense in certain situations. Too much focus is on making themselves look good instead of just admitting fault and looking to correct it for the good of the game.

[JRed]

Mike Dean on soccer Saturday showed a glimpse of their attitude. When talking about the ‘offside’ at spurs to Merson. Just kept shouting ‘it’s the law it’s the law, you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re just a player’ 
Arrogant little twats who thrive on the authority and power of deciding football matches.

[thejbs]

Because it's the nature of football - decisions are so subjective. Especially on penalty decisions. One of the things that makes VAR unworkable.

That’s why you call the ref to the monitor. It’s still their subjective call.

[redtel]

IMO There is one and literally only one way VAR could work...

Referees drop the ego and mission to prove themselves right and just make decisions for the good of the game. Clear and obvious has always been a way to protect officials long held belief that they always know better and are above question. The whole system is set up so that they cannot be questioned and the whataboutery and mental gymnastics make for a 'anything but admitting we need to be a lot better' type of stance.

Give an apology that fixes nothing, 'by the letter of the law' , 'he's used his common sense', dont want VAR to re-referee games, the ref cant win there... I could go on

Were they to have an approach in which decisions are looked and and correctly swiftly 'Andy you've called a goal kick, it actually hit the defender on the way out, it should be a corner' as an example, things would run so swiftly.

They spend too much time begging for sympathy and looking down on the rest of us like we haven't got a clue. There's always an excuse and consistency is what people often expect most. Weekly we see insane calls and it changes so often it's actually crazy. What's handball and a penalty today will be 'the arm was in a natural position' the following week.

They should sit down with a panel WEEKLY after each round of games, go through the decisions and analyse how they can improve consistency and decision making taking into account both the laws of the game and common sense in certain situations. Too much focus is on making themselves look good instead of just admitting fault and looking to correct it for the good of the game.

All valid points and I agree they should improve by having weekly reviews?

From PGMOL perspective why should they? They answer to nobody. They decide who to admit into the group each year.
What do they achieve by improving? They are under no pressure as far as I can see.

They apologise and things move on but don’t improve. Webb goes on tv and explains how the mistakes aren’t mistakes. Fans are begging for change but we are up against an insular organisation.

[Fromola]

I think that’s just a lazy cliché. It’s only the nature of football because the rules are poorly written.

Binning VAR is only a partial solution. The rule book being subjective is still a problem whichever route we go down. I don’t agree it’s an inherent issue though. It’s just a historical one.

Yes but football has never been a game where rules are religiously enforced. For example historically there's a higher bar for pens than for a free kick on the halfway line. A good ref knew how to manage a game.

VAR comes in and the penalty count flies up and players used that to their advantage with diving.

I don't want to see pens given every game. Not least as its the teams and players that cheat that benefit. The likes of Arsenal who are trained to a fault how to go down. Nor do I want the game stopped every 5 minutes to review every penalty shout.

[mikey_LFC]

Yes but football has never been a game where rules are religiously enforced. For example historically there's a higher bar for pens than for a free kick on the halfway line. A good ref knew how to manage a game.

VAR comes in and the penalty count flies up and players used that to their advantage with diving.

I don't want to see pens given every game. Not least as its the teams and players that cheat that benefit. The likes of Arsenal who are trained to a fault how to go down. Nor do I want the game stopped every 5 minutes to review every penalty shout.

It should be the player’s managing the situation though and the refs enforcing the rules. There shouldn’t be a higher freshhold for a penalty in the box, there should just be a specific fresh hold across the pitch, which in my view should be raised. If something is a foul, then it’s a foul everywhere. After all, it’s a foul for a reason. If the awarding of penalty is unfair for a specific situation then it’s that rule that should be looked at. Why should a foul nineteen yards out give you a 2% chance of scoring and a foul 18 yards out give you a 80% chance of scoring. That’s the nonsensical bit.

If players start trying to push the boundaries of the rule book or begin to cheat to try to win fouls, then it is the ref who should be on hand to enforce the rule book. Punish people who foul. If they keep fouling keep punishing them until they learn, even if it is in the box. Eventually they’ll learn to stop. Same for cheats, same for dissent. Just keep punishing them until they learn.

It’s completely unfair to put the burden on referees of ‘managing the game’ when it is often the players who are bringing about the farce. It’s that line of thinking that leads to the rules bending to avoid giving several penalties or red cards per game. If the referees were to stay strong and not bend to the pressure, they should be praised and the teams vilified.

VAR should just be seen for what it literally is, a source of additional information for the officials. That it’s not helped them is a clear sign that the system they operate under, the processes they utilise and the aims of their organisation are completely wrong. They are an inept organisation, but they’re also not helped but much of the culture around football, including the rules themselves.

[RyanBabel19]

All valid points and I agree they should improve by having weekly reviews?

From PGMOL perspective why should they? They answer to nobody. They decide who to admit into the group each year.
What do they achieve by improving? They are under no pressure as far as I can see.

They apologise and things move on but don’t improve. Webb goes on tv and explains how the mistakes aren’t mistakes. Fans are begging for change but we are up against an insular organisation.

Oh I agre 100%

They wont change shit and it’s literally all for image.

Look at dissent as a prime example, I am with them that it is too much, it isn’t on etc but they LITERALLY hold the cards in the scenario, if you dont want the screams shouts etc book the players for it consistently, it will soon stop when players know it either puts you on a yellow or sees you sent off. Players shouldn’t do it, managers shouldn’t do it, the blame isn’t all on refs at all and we all have to take accountability but there is a way to clamp down… it just isn’t used.

There are so many ways to improve the level of officiating but at the end of the day there has to be a catalyst for change and that is the desire for change and improvement. It’s all doomed because officials believe they’re above question

[Knight]

The 'clear and obvious' bar is there, at least in part, to avoid incessant checks on everything though. Now obviously they're basically doing that anyway (which is why VAR should be binned because it's broken at point of conception) but you you shouldn't have a system where the referee makes one marginal call (on a 'VAR decision, eg. red card, penalty etc) then VAR makes its own opposite decision because who's to say the VAR gets it right? VAR changes perception it doesn't simply reveal more accurately the 'truth' of the matter. The Gapko foul the other week is an example of that, slow that down and reply it over and over and it's not going to be given most likely because it doesn't look like very significant contact. But live, in the moment, and it perhaps looks a penalty, partly because full speed, one time only, often provides a fairer sense of what's happened. It's a bit like repeating a word over and over, after a while it ceases to feel like/ sound like a word. Repetition has actually changed perception for the worse, not provided more accurate perception.

Whereas, on paper (but not in reality) you can understand why a 'clear and obvious' bar would be introduced. Because it means VAR only gets involved where subjectivity is mostly taken out of it and the call is so obviously wrong to everyone but the ref. So the player clearly uses his hand which is way out in front of his body to control the ball as it comes over his shoulder before scoring but the ref can't see it because the defender is in the way. Problem is, the nature of football and the nature of the rules mean that the vast majority of 'wrong' decisions are much less 'clear and obvious' than this. A remarkable number of calls have people landing in one of three places. The original call was right, the original call was wrong but not 'clearly' and 'obviously' wrong, the original call was wrong and 'clearly and obviously' wrong. Now obviously there's all sorts of bias and subjectivity going into these things but if 1000s of people can watch one incident and land in all 3 places perhaps it's just not even possible to make these calls. We'd be much better off leaving it to the ref and his assistants, recognising that they're not ever going to be infallible but accepting their judgement on subjective calls and only ever using technology on definite objective calls (which the tech is good enough to actually call accurately - none of this nonsense with cameras that don't even have the FPS capability to accurately judge when a ball leaves the player's foot).

[RyanBabel19]

Would all be great... in an ideal world where the officials can be trusted to get it right first time in a good amount of cases. In reality we're light years from that, they fuck up constantly so clear and obvious serves only to protect this reputation (amongst themselves and only themselves) officials have built up.

Clear and obvious in itself is subjective! What some will deem as a clear and obvious error others wont. There is no textbook definition that everyone would agree on across football on a decision. It's all set up so they cannot ever be wrong, just look at their media segments, always manufactured to avoid transparency, set incidents cherry picked and they're rarely ever questioned properly. You can argue about things being slowed down and who's to say VAR gets it right but it isn't about perfection, the aim isn't to get every single decision spot on, its cutting down on errors and looking at incidents multiple times in order to increase the chance of a correct decision being made.

The isn't isn't VAR. VAR is simply the technology, the laws (created by humans) and implementation (also humans) is where the issue lies. We've spent how many years being talked down to and told 'we get the benefit of seeing it 3 times, officials aren't afforded that luxury' fast forward a few years and you could argue they're even more uselss why oh why is there always an excuse over accountability. They have ALL the tools at their disposal, they just choose arrogance and ego over genuine desire to be the best at their jobs and improve the standards of the game, everyone else is always to blame then when clubs, players, managers and fans reach boiling point we get slated for reacting. Cause and effect, do your fucking job consistently and the complaints reduce significantly.

I have little sympathy because i've spent years calling out their shite and little to nothing changes, they dont want to get better. In their minds they're absolutely incredible at their jobs

[Knight]

Would all be great... in an ideal world where the officials can be trusted to get it right first time in a good amount of cases. In reality we're light years from that, they fuck up constantly so clear and obvious serves only to protect this reputation (amongst themselves and only themselves) officials have built up.

Clear and obvious in itself is subjective! What some will deem as a clear and obvious error others wont. There is no textbook definition that everyone would agree on across football on a decision. It's all set up so they cannot ever be wrong, just look at their media segments, always manufactured to avoid transparency, set incidents cherry picked and they're rarely ever questioned properly. You can argue about things being slowed down and who's to say VAR gets it right but it isn't about perfection, the aim isn't to get every single decision spot on, its cutting down on errors and looking at incidents multiple times in order to increase the chance of a correct decision being made.

The isn't isn't VAR. VAR is simply the technology, the laws (created by humans) and implementation (also humans) is where the issue lies. We've spent how many years being talked down to and told 'we get the benefit of seeing it 3 times, officials aren't afforded that luxury' fast forward a few years and you could argue they're even more uselss why oh why is there always an excuse over accountability. They have ALL the tools at their disposal, they just choose arrogance and ego over genuine desire to be the best at their jobs and improve the standards of the game, everyone else is always to blame then when clubs, players, managers and fans reach boiling point we get slated for reacting. Cause and effect, do your fucking job consistently and the complaints reduce significantly.

I have little sympathy because i've spent years calling out their shite and little to nothing changes, they dont want to get better. In their minds they're absolutely incredible at their jobs

I absolutely agree that 'clear and obvious' piles subjectivity on top of subjectivity. But I don't agree that you solve the issue by getting rid of clear and obvious, because you'd still have the subjectivity of the initial call and why should we think the VAR is better placed to make an accurate decision than the on field ref on subjective decisions?

As for VAR is 'just technology'. But it's tech created by humans. As all technology is. And it isn't 'neutral' but reshapes what is imaginable and preferable. So for example the existing of dating apps has radically reshaped how humans meet their longer term spouse for better but also for worse. It's no good saying, 'technology didn't do that, humans chose to do that', when in reality technology provided a new way of doing something, it created new paths that didn't previously exist, it promoted a new way of dating and meeting potential mates. The question is, how has VAR's existence changed our experience of the game, the ruleset and the way things are referred? It's almost certainly significantly weakened the social contract which said that fans, players and everyone else respects the authority of the ref to make decisions according to their judgement. And this is absolutely vital to referring a game which contains so many subjective calls. Now video replays had already weakened that social contract but at least they didn't impinge on the game itself. Now literally everything is up for debate and has the potential to be reviewed - so everything we watch and witness in a game of football is provisional. This is awful, really awful, for the experience of watching football. Especially in the stadium but also on TV, because you never know if what you just witnessed is what 'really' happened. We just scored a goal, but did we really? If you take away the 'clear and obvious' bar you'll only intensify this because the VAR will have to agree with the ref on a marginal call and if he doesn't, the decision will be overturned. Or if the decision is pushed back to the ref then every marginal 'could go either way' call will go back to the on field ref who'll trot over to the monitor and watch what the fans in the ground can't watch and make a, potentially different, decision on grounds that fans in the ground won't know.

You say that the refs are awful and I don't disagree entirely but I also think VAR technology has created a situation where we feel the refs are awful.

[RyanBabel19]

I absolutely agree that 'clear and obvious' piles subjectivity on top of subjectivity. But I don't agree that you solve the issue by getting rid of clear and obvious, because you'd still have the subjectivity of the initial call and why should we think the VAR is better placed to make an accurate decision than the on field ref on subjective decisions?

As for VAR is 'just technology'. But it's tech created by humans. As all technology is. And it isn't 'neutral' but reshapes what is imaginable and preferable. So for example the existing of dating apps has radically reshaped how humans meet their longer term spouse for better but also for worse. It's no good saying, 'technology didn't do that, humans chose to do that', when in reality technology provided a new way of doing something, it created new paths that didn't previously exist, it promoted a new way of dating and meeting potential mates. The question is, how has VAR's existence changed our experience of the game, the ruleset and the way things are referred? It's almost certainly significantly weakened the social contract which said that fans, players and everyone else respects the authority of the ref to make decisions according to their judgement. And this is absolutely vital to referring a game which contains so many subjective calls. Now video replays had already weakened that social contract but at least they didn't impinge on the game itself. Now literally everything is up for debate and has the potential to be reviewed - so everything we watch and witness in a game of football is provisional. This is awful, really awful, for the experience of watching football. Especially in the stadium but also on TV, because you never know if what you just witnessed is what 'really' happened. We just scored a goal, but did we really? If you take away the 'clear and obvious' bar you'll only intensify this because the VAR will have to agree with the ref on a marginal call and if he doesn't, the decision will be overturned. Or if the decision is pushed back to the ref then every marginal 'could go either way' call will go back to the on field ref who'll trot over to the monitor and watch what the fans in the ground can't watch and make a, potentially different, decision on grounds that fans in the ground won't know.

You say that the refs are awful and I don't disagree entirely but I also think VAR technology has created a situation where we feel the refs are awful.

I never said get rid of it altogether, just that it’s pretty much a mask for the officials to hide incompetence and look right.

Dating apps are one step away from social media and share many things in common. You can LITERALLY watch video of them talking about how it’s been created with the purpose of keeping you engaged and using it, they’ve studied how to do this. Dating apps have been designed a specific way to push engagement as its in their best interests. VAR is literally there to allow the reviewing of an incident, unless you’re saying they’ve purposely shaped the technology so that it will bring certain outcomes there is zeroooo comparison between them! Here’s a way to rewatch what happened isn’t even similar to here’s a way to display your best pictures that show you in the best light and may well be heavily edited and potentially lie about yourself in order to draw attention. Unless something has been reported on that I haven’t seen, all VAR itself does is allow for the review of incidents, no different really to action replays which have been around for ages, the main difference being that officials are allowed a look in game now when they weren’t before… again we were all told this was a luxury for us. The problems lie in the way its all implemented which again doesn’t come from VAR at all, VAR just allows you to watch it back much like goal line tech just notifies you if it crossed the line or not or the semi auto offsides just show on or off

Of course it changes the game and the celebration of goals etc, it’s frustrating and difficult.

I disagree massively on that last bit, feeling the refs are awful never cropped up with the introduction of VAR, they’ve been awful for fucking decades. We lost to a goal scored from the ricochet of a beachball. Honestly go back and look at some of their performances yearsssss back, they’ve been horrendous since long before VAR

[4pool]

Doesn't make a jot of difference what is debated in here, PGMOL ain't changing shit unless the media throw a strop.

It is the media who threw a strop about getting VAR into the game because they could show highlights and point out errors in officiating. VAR would solve that, they said.

Has it Fcuk.

But all they'll do now, is debate how to tweak the VAR system.

[RyanBabel19]

Yeah they aint changing shit. They dont give a flying fuck about us fans

[The North Bank]

Hes onside for fuck sake

[DelTrotter]

How to ruin the fun of a goal, fucking hell, tedious as fuck even when it goes for us.

[Fromola]

How to ruin the fun of a goal, fucking hell, tedious as fuck even when it goes for us.

Such a crock of shit. Enjoyable 20 odd minutes anyway until the VAR killjoys wake up.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

How to ruin the fun of a goal, fucking hell, tedious as fuck even when it goes for us.

[JRed]

How to ruin the fun of a goal, fucking hell, tedious as fuck even when it goes for us.

Yep. They’ve sucked every last bit of joy from the game.

[Fromola]

Yep. They’ve sucked every last bit of joy from the game.

How often do we score now and the players don't even bother celebrating? Gakpo didn't then, Salah often doesn't, then will 5 minutes later if it's given.

[Fromola]

Theo Walcott
Former Arsenal and Southampton forward on BBC Radio 5 Live

It's so frustrating VAR because it just takes the fun out of it.

The delay, the players can't celebrate, you're trying to ask players, the young generation to time runs now with VAR.

I would have had about 20, 30 goals ruled off in my career if VAR came.

Remember watching a compilation of Owen's goals and half of them would have been VAR offside checks, it's a different sport now with this shit. You can't play off the shoulder anymore, part of Nunez's problem.

[JRed]

How often do we score now and the players don't even bother celebrating? Gakpo didn't then, Salah often doesn't, then will 5 minutes later if it's given.

I don’t bother celebrating any more.

[Fromola]

I don’t bother celebrating any more.

I'm amazed anybody does, but it crystalizes it more when the players don't bother.