Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[ChrisLFCKOP]

Did Sky say VAR checked if the ball went out off the corner. Fucking madness how they look for any excuse to rule ours out

I think that was Tyler just hoping that something could rule it out. 

[Egyptian36]

Can someone please explain to me what happened before the first goal. Let's assume the referee thought the player got the ball why the VAR official decided its not a foul too ?

[El Lobo]

There’s no excusing that today. It’s like the decisions in the Spurs game, the decisions in the City/Bitter game. They’re the decisions you’d dream of being asked to make on VAR, you can’t get them wrong unless you’re trying to deliberately. You cant blame incompetence when it’s the same names.

[LFC_R_BOSS]

Looked like a possible hand ball at one point to but no replay

[farawayred]

Training new refs

That is Stevie Wonder's job, apparently.

[macmanamanaman]

Attwell on VAR does have a few strange decisions against us, to be honest....
Add Atkinson as the ref and you have a perfect 12th man.
Luckily the saints today did not have much ambition, did not use the resources provided by the referees to them.

[Egyptian36]

There’s no excusing that today. It’s like the decisions in the Spurs game, the decisions in the City/Bitter game. They’re the decisions you’d dream of being asked to make on VAR, you can’t get them wrong unless you’re trying to deliberately. You cant blame incompetence when it’s the same names.

That's what I have been saying since Spurs game. Take Kane tackle for example. The law of the game is clear so why not a red ?  it's not a mistake they simply choose to ignore it and not send off Kane yet no punishment or anything for those offiacls and one of them gets awarded of being the VAR official for our final wtf ? and we all saw how they influenced the title and 4th race with some crazy decisions.

Premier Leauge clubs are weak. Foreign managers and players etc so why not push for foreign referees.

[RedG13]

Carragher the prick making every excuse under the sun to not say it’s a foul

Both NBC studio analysts thought it was a clear foul, It was Robbie Earle and Danny Higginbotham

[RedG13]

Looked like a possible hand ball at one point to but no replay

If it was the One that Milner appealed for, USA Network showed a replay, it was clear as day it hit his shoulder

[farawayred]

Can't help but think about next season when three (very fucking) old referees will retire (years past their time) and new ones will come up... How many would be of Coote's standard, or lower?...

[GreatEx]

Can't help but think about next season when three (very fucking) old referees will retire (years past their time) and new ones will come up... How many would be of Coote's standard, or lower?...

I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised!

[farawayred]

I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised!

Oh, I know that for sure...

[red_Mark1980]

If it was the One that Milner appealed for, USA Network showed a replay, it was clear as day it hit his shoulder

Dale Johnson will tell us how VAR was absolutely correct at some point

He's becoming tedious now

[lamonti]

If it's clear and obvious he would have seen it, so clearly the referee couldn't have made an obvious mistake, right? Carry on then.



Total fucking farce.

[lamonti]

Dale Johnson will tell us how VAR was absolutely correct at some point

He's becoming tedious now

Total fucking shill for the whole process that lad.

[Knight]

It’s so bad. They don’t want to re-ref the game from a monitor so they need to apply some standard for what qualifies for a VAR intervention. Problem is, there are multiple different standards.
1) for issues like yesterday, it needs to be a ‘clear and obvious error’.
2) offsides are effectively re-reffed as long as a goal is scored.
3) handballs are also re-referreed if it causes a goal.

But why? Why does the ‘clear and obvious’ distinction not apply to handballs and offsides? I guess they’d say you can reach relatively objective certainty with those 2 decisions, which isn’t actually true given the margin for error on cameras and the question about what actually qualifies as a handball (see the 2 joke decisions that have gone City’s way for handballs this season). This system leads to an absurd situation where offsides and handballs are microanalysed in great detail and as soon as one is found VAR steps in, no matter how ‘clear and obvious’ it is. But for clear fouls like the one on Jota yesterday VAR won’t intervene because it doesn’t reach the subjective threshold for ‘clear and obvious’. So they’d be much better re-reffing EVERY decision in the ‘phase’ before a goal. At least you’d get a bit more consistency with VAR’s use then. So in this scenario if there was anything potentially suspect in the ‘phase’ before a goal was scored it would be checked. And if VAR decided the on field ref was wrong they’d change it - or they’d ask the ref to check the monitor, and if the ref thought his original decisions was wrong, not ‘clear and obviously’ wrong, just wrong, VAR would intervene.

The alternative is to apply the clear and obvious standard to offsides and handballs too. But they can’t apply a ‘clear and obvious’ standard to offsides because the subjectivity of the VAR official will be so blatant. We’ll have games where an offside is given because VAR deems it clear and obvious and then in other games identical offsides aren’t given because the VAR doesn’t deem it clear and obvious.

Of course that raises the issue of what counts as a ‘phase’ so you wouldn’t solve all your problems but at least there’d be more consistency within VAR. You’d still probably need a ‘clear and obvious’ threshold for bad tackles but this is unrelated to goals so it being a different standard wouldn’t be so bad.

Or, better, the whole thing goes in it’s entirety. It’s a pox on our game.

[Mister Flip Flop]

No excuse for that last night, none. Could have cost us the title and it just can't go on like this. I've zero faith in VAR or the refereeing in this league.

[thejbs]

Had VAR done it’s job this season, we’d have likely won the league last night and had a reasonable rest before the CL final. Mad that no one outside our fan base is mentioning it, yet the LiVARpool myth endures.

[thejbs]

No excuse for that last night, none. Could have cost us the title and it just can't go on like this. I've zero faith in VAR or the refereeing in this league.

VAR already has cost us the title.

[Dr Stu-Pid]

Once more it’s the inconsistency of VAR that is so maddening.  One minute they say that it has to be a clear and obvious error and that they don’t want to re-referee games, but then other times they seem to go into forensic accountant mode to try to look for reasons to disallow goals.  The Leicester goal which was ruled out against Utd for a foul on Verane is a good example.  I mean, objectively that was a foul as he caught him on the leg and knocked him off balance, but in what way was that more of a ‘clear and obvious’ error than last night?  Was it because it happened closer to the goal?  They just make the rules up as they go along rather than pre-publishing what the rules/ guidelines actually are.  That way they can’t be held accountable, they’ll just hide behind the ‘clear and obvious’ line.

Last night’s incident was as clear as they come.  It’s a definite foul (rather than being a subjective 50-50 or even 70-30 type incident), Leicester gain possession due to the foul, there are only two passes before it reaches the goal scorer, no Liverpool player touches the ball, and we don’t get a chance to ‘reset’ due to the speed of the counter attack.

[lobsterboy]

VAR, sponsored by Etisalat.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I can understand not wanting to re referee games. But we also frequently hear words like "just going through the usual VAR check" when a goal is scored.

In a low scoring game, surely goals are the one thing that they need to get right. The foul was very much the same phase of play because the foul was what set up the break.

They have shown they are incapable of creating consistency around the clear and obvious threshold, so why not do the bloody obvious and just focus on whether the ref got it right first time or not. It just shows the egos at play if they can't accept decisions being overturned, especially when most people realise how difficult it is to ref a game played at the at that speed.

Goals, fouls preventing goals, fouls leading to goals, tackles that injure and sendings off should all be checked regardless of a threshold. It's totally anomalous for anything resembling offside to be routinely checked by VAR, when non offside decisions have to pass a threshold.

Then again it's the unaccountable PGMOL led by Riley.

[macmanamanaman]

The seemingly plausible argument in the situation yesterday is that the foul occurred in a prior phase of play and therefore had nothing to do with the goal being scored.
Which is nonsense as it was exactly 1 pass to Redmond after the foul, and then goal.

Basically,  the ambiguity in the "phase of play" notion can let VAR be subjective , and many times just use this as a disguise for their bias.

2 possible fixes: Define "phase of play" objectively
a. All play within 3 passes
b. All play within 30 seconds.
If either a or b happens to lead to a goal, then disallow.


I believe yesterday,  the goal happened within 1 pass and 14 seconds?

Anyway, whatever is objectively the criteria,  then can at least be enforced better than the controversy inducing shite they have at present.

[rob1966]

The seemingly plausible argument in the situation yesterday is that the foul occurred in a prior phase of play and therefore had nothing to do with the goal being scored.
Which is nonsense as it was exactly 1 pass to Redmond after the foul, and then goal.

Basically,  the ambiguity in the "phase of play" notion can let VAR be subjective , and many times just use this as a disguise for their bias.

2 possible fixes: Define "phase of play" objectively
a. All play within 3 passes
b. All play within 30 seconds.
If either a or b happens to lead to a goal, then disallow.


I believe yesterday,  the goal happened within 1 pass and 14 seconds?

Anyway, whatever is objectively the criteria,  then can at least be enforced better than the controversy inducing shite they have at present.

They managed to go all the way back to the half way line when we beat Spurs away last year to find a handball by Bobby, which was caused by him getting pushed by Dier.

Not corrupt/biased though are they?

[El Lobo]

The 'it wasn't a clear and obvious error' is their go-to now to mask bias, and they do seem to hook a few with it. As with the Spurs game, as with the Everton handball, there isn't an excuse. Its a referee making biased decisions and a VAR official backing them up. Nothing to do with any description of it not being clear and obvious.

[macmanamanaman]

I don't even know how the classification works.
What about
a. Clear and Obvious
b. Clear but not obvious
c. Obvious but not clear
d. Neither clear nor obvious


....erm, let me call the manager.  I just work here weekends....

[Knight]

The 'it wasn't a clear and obvious error' is their go-to now to mask bias, and they do seem to hook a few with it. As with the Spurs game, as with the Everton handball, there isn't an excuse. Its a referee making biased decisions and a VAR official backing them up. Nothing to do with any description of it not being clear and obvious.

It could also be incompetence couldn't it? Leaving aside the bias argument and its merits we're all pretty sure most of ours refs are a bit rubbish so it's not a surprise when rubbish refs make rubbish calls. And what's become clear is VAR can actually accentuate ineptitude rather than avoid it. I'm not wanting to go into specific examples where you say, 'no one is that incompetent' but when we consider bad calls we do need to consider the obvious conclusion, that they're bad! Which isn't to say bias isn't a thing too - that conversation has been had between the 2 of us enough.

[El Lobo]

It could also be incompetence couldn't it? Leaving aside the bias argument and its merits we're all pretty sure most of ours refs are a bit rubbish so it's not a surprise when rubbish refs make rubbish calls. And what's become clear is VAR can actually accentuate ineptitude rather than avoid it. I'm not wanting to go into specific examples where you say, 'no one is that incompetent' but when we consider bad calls we do need to consider the obvious conclusion, that they're bad! Which isn't to say bias isn't a thing too - that conversation has been had between the 2 of us enough.

Just another easy get out.

That last night wasn't a difficult call. It wasn't a difficult call on the pitch, and it was an even easier call on replay. Atkinsons been refereeing for 17 years, Atwell has been refereeing for 15 years. Atkinsons reffed cup finals, he's been to big international tournaments, he's been selected by FIFA. I'm sorry but 'it could be incompetence' is just nonsense. That was not a tricky decision, it was one that you absolutely shouldn't get wrong if you're stood five yards away but literally cannot get wrong if you're watching it on a replay. The 'oh they're just rubbish' talk maybe works once or twice. When its the same names making the big mistakes and getting more big games, never stood down, never mentioned, and the higher up is Mike Riley then again I'm sorry because it seems to cause you great offence, but 'its just that they're crap refs' doesn't cut it.

I used to work for a bank, I'd fucking love to have been able to transfer £500,000 into my own account and then get my manager saying 'Haha you little scamp, that was rubbish banking, on you go'. There's being rubbish at your job, and then there's not being able to make the most basic decisions that people many, many tiers lower than you would be able to get right. Thats not incompetence, thats making a conscious decision not to give a decision you know full well is incorrect. You dont get to their level by not being able to spot that as a foul.

[oojason]

'Jurgen Klopp calls out Martin Atkinson for repeating Man Utd mistake':-

Jurgen Klopp was furious with referee Martin Atkinson for allowing Nathan Redmond's goal to stand as Liverpool beat Southampton to keep the Premier League title race alive

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jurgen-klopp-man-utd-liverpool-26993130

[Red-Soldier]

No excuse for that last night, none. Could have cost us the title and it just can't go on like this. I've zero faith in VAR or the refereeing in this league.

But it has likely cost us the title and it will just carry on.

The Wolves handball against City, the Ev handball against City, the Cresswell (non) sending off against us, the Kane (non) sending off against us.  We would be champions already, if not for corrupt officials, and on the cusp of an unprecedented quadruple.

[Red-Soldier]

'Jurgen Klopp calls out Martin Atkinson for repeating Man Utd mistake':-

Jurgen Klopp was furious with referee Martin Atkinson for allowing Nathan Redmond's goal to stand as Liverpool beat Southampton to keep the Premier League title race alive

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jurgen-klopp-man-utd-liverpool-26993130

Afterwards, he said yes we could have spotted that, but who cares?"

[Mister Flip Flop]

If people think match fixing and bribary doesn't happen in football they are the ones wearing tin foil hats. Football is big business and a multi billion pound industry and all business is susceptible to corruption Even smaller leagues are effected by it.

RTE news : Arrests made in League of Ireland match-fixing probe

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/0518/1299687-arrests-made-in-league-of-ireland-match-fixing-probe/

[Mister Flip Flop]

It could also be incompetence couldn't it? Leaving aside the bias argument and its merits we're all pretty sure most of ours refs are a bit rubbish so it's not a surprise when rubbish refs make rubbish calls. And what's become clear is VAR can actually accentuate ineptitude rather than avoid it. I'm not wanting to go into specific examples where you say, 'no one is that incompetent' but when we consider bad calls we do need to consider the obvious conclusion, that they're bad! Which isn't to say bias isn't a thing too - that conversation has been had between the 2 of us enough.

I'm sorry but the "it's just incompetence" train left the station years ago. There's something deeper going on here.

[Kashinoda]

If people think match fixing and bribary doesn't happen in football they are the ones wearing tin foil hats. Football is big business and a multi billion pound industry and all business is susceptible to corruption Even smaller leagues are effected by it.

RTE news : Arrests made in League of Ireland match-fixing probe

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2022/0518/1299687-arrests-made-in-league-of-ireland-match-fixing-probe/

There's no conspiraceh

The refs are shit, their implementation of VAR or when to use it is shit or vague at best, and some clearly have a lot of bias towards\against certain teams or players.

[El Lobo]

There's no conspiraceh

The refs are shit, their implementation of VAR or when to use it is shit or vague at best, and some clearly have a lot of bias towards\against certain teams or players.

Surely thats a bit of a contradiction?

[Kashinoda]

Surely thats a bit of a contradiction?

If I have bias towards something I'm not conspiring against it, I may be more susceptible to do so though.

[El Lobo]

If its obvious that certain referees have bias for/against certain teams, and it is, and they still keep getting games involving those teams and making odd decisions, then.....thats a bit conspiracy-y, no?

[Knight]

I'm sorry but the "it's just incompetence" train left the station years ago. There's something deeper going on here.

I literally didn't say, it's just incompetence'. I said, 'it could ALSO be incompetence'. I worked so hard in my post to make clear I wasn't precluding the existence of 'bias' but was adding a contributing factor, 'incompetence'. And yet this is how you read the post?

[smutchin]

Thats not incompetence, thats making a conscious decision not to give a decision you know full well is incorrect. You dont get to their level by not being able to spot that as a foul.

After 17 years, we really shouldn't be surprised at this from Atkinson. We've long known he's a referee who "likes to let the game flow" - ie allow teams of cloggers to keep fouling with impunity because he's allergic to blowing his whistle.

Klopp hasn't forgotten the Rashford goal, and there have been plenty of other examples over the years that I'm sure we can all remember.

I don't think he's especially biased against us. We got away with a few last night that other refs would have given as fouls against us.

The refs are shit, their implementation of VAR or when to use it is shit or vague at best, and some clearly have a lot of bias towards\against certain teams or players.

More a bias against certain styles of play, perhaps - ie any style that's not based on kicking the shit out of your opponent. Atkinson is clearly a bit "old school" - probably wishes he'd been a ref in the 70s, When Footballers Were Real Men.

So it's really just his style of refereeing, ie shit.

As for VAR, Tyler came out with the line last night that the Premier League implementation of VAR "has a high threshold for intervention". Which is a roundabout way of saying they're only interested in protecting their mate out on the pitch rather than doing their actual fucking job.

The fundamental problem remains that PGMOL is an old boys club that is not subject to independent scrutiny. Quit custodiet and all that.

[Mister Flip Flop]

There's no conspiraceh

The refs are shit, their implementation of VAR or when to use it is shit or vague at best, and some clearly have a lot of bias towards\against certain teams or players.

Bias is corruption. Referee's are meant to be balanced and fair. If they are biased then they are corrupt.