Topic: Emre Can

[BabuYagu]

I think he needs to just play for a team that will make the most of his strengths while protecting his weaknesses. In the same way that Salah couldn't achieve his potential playing for Mourinho, maybe Can can't achieve his potential with the way that we play. All players need this to varying degrees, and in a way it's to Can's credit that he's been an important part of our squad despite not necessarily having the requisite skill set to excel in the way we play.

So, I'm relatively relaxed about him leaving. We can replace him with someone who will suit the way we play better, and he'll hopefully achieve his potential in a league far away from us. It's a shame that we might get no money for him, but you can't say we wouldn't have gotten good value for him, having paid £10m.

For coaches who have very structured/rigid tactical framework - Rafa, Simeone, Mourinho, Conte, Pochetino - Can is a player you can build your midfield around. His best games for us this season - Hoffenheim, Arsenal - where when we were playing in such a manner then counter and attacking open space with numbers.

Whereas coaches who have very fluid/expressive tactical systems - Bielsa, Pep, Klopp, Wenger  - Can will be a problem at times. With almost absolute freedom for the players, the tactical strength of the system comes from the players. If you have players who are poor tactically, they will make poor decisions (e.g. him pressing at the wrong time v Sevilla, Henderson's pass v Newcastle), they will show poor awareness or positioning, won't anticipate danger, and many other problems too.

[joekim87]

why? Is there anything to suggest he'd be any better there than players who've played there their whole careers?

Couldn't play any worse than Lovren at the moment and Klavan isn't exactly the answer. Can played a variety of positions growing up and it COULD be a potential solution. Not saying he is the answer but a possible solution.

[MukeshJ2506]

Am not sure if you have watched Can at Center Back? 

[Redman78]

Couldn't play any worse than Lovren at the moment and Klavan isn't exactly the answer. Can played a variety of positions growing up and it COULD be a potential solution. Not saying he is the answer but a possible solution.

Sticking him at CB is not exactly gonna convince him to stay is it.

[paulrazor]

started as right back for Germany agaisnt France

doesn't look good so far

he isnt a right back in fairness

[BigTroubleInLittleChina]

to be honest Can is not a very good footballer. I know a lot of people are in love with his talent and physical ability but he's got no toolbox and his lack of quickness of movement and thought make his strong attributes lackluster.

Goal of the year says otherwise...

[Tobelius]

If he goes he goes and we have Naby coming in the summer thankfully.

I hope someone like Marko Grujic can step up if he goes although we have seen too little of him so far to really judge.

He has some qualities i like,is a physical presence (needs to be less rash on the tackle though),and has a very hard straight shot on him.

[B0151?]

Honestly, a move to somewhere like Juve or Bayern is a risky move for Can. He could very well just end up in the same situation that he is here: in the first team but without a position nailed down, or obviously, an even worse one with less game time. I could understand him leaving to a team that WOULD build its midfield around him, but he's probably got more chance of making that #6 spot his own here than another big club. It's not like he doesn't get chances there here.

[Chris~]

Honestly, a move to somewhere like Juve or Bayern is a risky move for Can. He could very well just end up in the same situation that he is here: in the first team but without a position nailed down, or obviously, an even worse one with less game time. I could understand him leaving to a team that WOULD build its midfield around him, but he's probably got more chance of making that #6 spot his own here than another big club. It's not like he doesn't get chances there here.

But if he does move to one of those and has the same role in the squad he'd also have the chance to win a lot more given those two dominate their leagues, which I'm sure he'd find an acceptable trade off.

[macnianios]

he isnt a right back in fairness

sure he is not, 

 but raising his hand for offside while covering lacazette and walking back after attacks has nothing to do with his position on the field. Is matter of determination and willingess to be a good player and help his team

to be fair, i didn''t watch all the game but every time(3-4) i was and french was counter attacking , emre was walking/jogging back to defence while his teammates were running

maybe i was unlucky and saw just the bad period of his game yesterday.

[Dim Glas]

Couldn't play any worse than Lovren at the moment and Klavan isn't exactly the answer. Can played a variety of positions growing up and it COULD be a potential solution. Not saying he is the answer but a possible solution.

but how do you even know that. Wouldn't some of the issues people feel he has in midfield be even more glaring at central defence playing the sort of style of football Liverpool play?

Sure he could go into that role in an injury crisis, just seems a bit mad to do so when they have 4 central defenders available at the moment.

[Smellytrabs]

Goal of the year says otherwise...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdgKLfAYrZI

[Dench57]

feed him to the pigs harold

[Zoomers]

but how do you even know that.

He did the maffs.

[McLovin]

Couldn't play any worse than Lovren at the moment and Klavan isn't exactly the answer. Can played a variety of positions growing up and it COULD be a potential solution. Not saying he is the answer but a possible solution.

I like this idea - he could do well for us there and would offer another option if he grows into it.

[stoj]

Althought it's that versitility that may well earn him a spot for Germany in the world cup, as he's probably 3 or 4th choice for the number 6 role for them.

Problem for Emre is that he always seems to be in this situation, even with Leverkusen, he played a number of games at fullback and some in a more number 8 midfield role. So far in his career he's always had this utility tag, which I guess can be a hindrance as much as a help sometimes.

The saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" springs to mind.

Maybe there is a reason that all manager's have chosen to play him in different positions? Not a criticism from me as clearly he has ability but maybe his strength is his versatility and he has also probably been unlucky to be a needs must player at times?

[Dim Glas]

The saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" springs to mind.

Maybe there is a reason that all manager's have chosen to play him in different positions? Not a criticism from me as clearly he has ability but maybe his strength is his versatility and he has also probably been unlucky to be a needs must player at times?

i guess is sort of similar to James Milner in a way, the fact he can play different roles, means that he ends up all over the place, although I guess with Milner earlier in his career he was far more settled. Whereas with Emre it's happend really from the start at Bayern Munich. And carried on with Leverkusen to Liverpool, and of course the national team. Although at least since Jürgen Klopp arrived he's almost always played in central midfield, so that's at least some stability. Whereas before then, and still for Germany, he played both full back positions, central defence, heck even wide midfield a few times. Reckon he'd get stuck in goal too if the goalie was sent off

 It is a compliment to him, but maybe he doesn't see it like that!   

Thing is though, that versatility will make him an even more attractive free transfer for many clubs cos they'll see him as a player who can fill multiple roles, and he may just end up exactly how he was before - playing full back, midfield, centre back or wherever.

[Smellytrabs]

The biggest flaws in Can’s game with the exception of lack of pace would all be exposed much more at centre-back than in the midfield. Decision making, reading of the game, positioning, reaction speed. On top of that, he has hardly ever played there – he would need to learn a whole new set of skills and would require a long bedding in process. If we wanted an established player to overtake Lovren or Klavan in the pecking order at CB then Gomez is that player.

[stoj]

i guess is sort of similar to James Milner in a way, the fact he can play different roles, means that he ends up all over the place, although I guess with Milner earlier in his career he was far more settled. Whereas with Emre it's happend really from the start at Bayern Munich. And carried on with Leverkusen to Liverpool, and of course the national team. Although at least since Jürgen Klopp arrived he's almost always played in central midfield, so that's at least some stability. Whereas before then, and still for Germany, he played both full back positions, central defence, heck even wide midfield a few times. Reckon he'd get stuck in goal too if the goalie was sent off

 It is a compliment to him, but maybe he doesn't see it like that!   

Yeah, I would agree that this is probably a big reason for not signing an extension as yet?

[Dim Glas]

Yeah, I would agree that this is probably a big reason for not signing an extension as yet?

that's what a strong suggestion is I believe, that he wants some sort of guarantee of being played in his prefered role.

Way I see it, clubs that are linked with him like Bayern and Juventus will see the versitility as part of the attraction. Getting a 24 year old German international on a free transfer, what's not to like when you know he has experience in playing various positions. Would he get that sort of guarantee from them too regards prefered role in the team, I don't know.

Damn shame if he leaves but looks like it's going to happen, so important that Liverpool find a way to fill the gap.

[El Denzel Pepito]

He's gonna be our Pogba, isn't he?

[classycarra]

He's gonna be our Pogba, isn't he?

We're not gonna resign him for a world record fee and agent backhander, nah.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

He's gonna be our Pogba, isn't he?

Comparing apples and oranges.

[El Denzel Pepito]

Comparing apples and oranges.

There are eery similarities so far. Both going from 'top PL' clubs, to Juventus, and for free after running their contracts down. Both had bags of talent but just didn't seem to nail a regular spot in their preferred position, or showed signs of inconsistency. Both obviously physical players playing in central midfield, although operate differently. Not saying we'll go on to buy him for £190million in a few years time, if he leaves, but he'll probably have a lot of our fans wondering 'what if?' if he goes on to shine for Juventus, and whatever other clubs in his future career. And we'll have comments like 'Can't believe Can's doing so well at XXX and Rodgers used him at right back, lad was mismanaged here' etc.

Obviously he could stay as he is for the rest of his career and we'll all go 'meh', rather than United fans who wanted Pogba back as soon as he started shining for Juventus.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

There are eery similarities so far. Both going from 'top PL' clubs, to Juventus, and for free after running their contracts down. Both had bags of talent but just didn't seem to nail a regular spot in their preferred position, or showed signs of inconsistency. Both obviously physical players playing in central midfield, although operate differently. Not saying we'll go on to buy him for £190million in a few years time, if he leaves, but he'll probably have a lot of our fans wondering 'what if?' if he goes on to shine for Juventus, and whatever other clubs in his future career. And we'll have comments like 'Can't believe Can's doing so well at XXX and Rodgers used him at right back, lad was mismanaged here' etc.

Obviously he could stay as he is for the rest of his career and we'll all go 'meh', rather than United fans who wanted Pogba back as soon as he started shining for Juventus.

Pogba was a teenager when he moved, Can isn't. Pogba was partly a product of United's academy, Can was brought in from Leverkusen. Pogba didn't play any football at all in United's first XI, Can has played over a 100 games for our team under two managers.

The similarities are that they leave on a free[if Can leaves]. That's it. Pogba has a heigher ceiling right now than Can does, and he's done more for Juventus, than Can has for us.

I think Can will be a good player, he's inconsistent now. Pogba can be a word class player [not under Mourinho imo].

[El Denzel Pepito]

Pogba was a teenager when he moved, Can isn't. Pogba was partly a product of United's academy, Can was brought in from Leverkusen. Pogba didn't play any football at all in United's first XI, Can has played over a 100 games for our team under two managers.

The similarities are that they leave on a free[if Can leaves]. That's it. Pogba has a heigher ceiling right now than Can does, and he's done more for Juventus, than Can has for us.

I think Can will be a good player, he's inconsistent now. Pogba can be a word class player [not under Mourinho imo].

The point I'm making is at their point of departure, both players (will potentially) leave as enigmas in a way. The fanbase is still quite undecided on Can, some people think he's nothing special, others think he's our best midfielder by far. Pogba, when leaving United, fell into those two brackets within the fanbase as well - despite a small sample size, but a lot had seen him already playing for France's under-19 sides and reserves. He'd only played 7 games for the first team at United, and was part of their academy, but he played 7 games for France during 2013, the year he left United, so he was already a player with a lot of potential, similar to Can - despite Can making a lot more appearances for us. They were held in a very similar regard, I'd say.

Not comparing Can to current day Pogba, but to the Pogba before Juventus. Pogba was admittedly only 19 when he moved, but he'd developed at a ridiculously quick rate. Can's 23 now, and he could well be a 'late-bloomer' as he understands his own game and could surpass Pogba's 'ceiling' during his time at Juventus, if he goes. Who's to say Can doesn't do what Pogba did and show his talents under Allegri's coaching?

Don't really want to bring him into the discussion, but Alonso wasn't considered world class by any stretch of the imagination and fairly inconsistent, similar to Can, during his early seasons at Sociedad, Eibar and Liverpool. Not until 2008/09 did he come into his own and showed just what a freak of a midfielder he was, having made his debut for us in the 04/05 season - so his fifth season. Can's entering his fourth season now so no reason to believe he wouldn't go a couple levels higher like Xabi did for us.

[joezydudek]

Quite a divisive player really isn't he?
Saying he's 'not a very good footballer' is obviously complete nonsense, but it's also not completely clear how good he'll become and how big a loss he'd be to us if he left.
I'd rather we kept in and hope he finds some consistency, but I understand some of the criticisms of him and I'm not sure how often he starts when everyone's fit (not that it ever seems to happen anyway).

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Alonso had one ''average'' year before that 2008/2009 season. He wasn't world class right away, but he was a top player and a lot better at the same age Can is now. He was highly regarded in Spain, he turned down Real before joining us and he helped Sociedad get into the Champions League the year before he moved to us. So it wasn't like he was an uknown in Spain.

[Yorkykopite]

The biggest flaws in Can’s game with the exception of lack of pace...

Although according to the stats that Babu posted in this thread Can is the quickest Liverpool player there is. Or at least against Arsenal he reached speeds that others, including Mane and Salah, were unable to reach.

I must admit that surprised me. Although it also surprises me that anyone would ever think Can was slow.

[Chakan]

Although according to the stats that Babu posted in this thread Can is the quickest Liverpool player there is. Or at least against Arsenal he reached speeds that others, including Mane and Salah, were unable to reach.

I must admit that surprised me. Although it also surprises me that anyone would ever think Can was slow.

He's fast going forward when he wants to be, he's slow everywhere else.

[El Denzel Pepito]

Alonso had one ''average'' year before that 2008/2009 season. He wasn't world class right away, but he was a top player and a lot better at the same age Can is now. He was highly regarded in Spain, he turned down Real before joining us and he helped Sociedad get into the Champions League the year before he moved to us. So it wasn't like he was an uknown in Spain.

Not saying he wasn't highly regarded, just he improved drastically as the years went by. From being a good, not great player to having a successful very very successful spells at Real and Bayern for years to come.

Using Alonso turning down Real as an example of him being well-regarded is the same as Can playing for Leverkusen and receiving interest from Bayern who he played for 38 times as a youngster, and was in discussions with them again as he had a buy-back clause in his contract. http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive---emre-can-turned-7918133

[Yorkykopite]

He's fast going forward when he wants to be, he's slow everywhere else.

If that's true, then we need another description other than "he lacks pace". What you appear to be suggesting is that he's "lazy" or "uncommitted" or possibly "temperamental" and "moody" ("when he wants to be"). Is that fair?

PS I should say that it's impossible to tell from Babu's stats whether Can reached his top speed - ie the team's top speed - when he was going forwards  or backwards, so it's at least possible that you might be wrong in your own assessment.

[newterp]

If that's true, then we need another description other than "he lacks pace". What you appear to be suggesting is that he's "lazy" or "uncommitted" or possibly "temperamental" and "moody" ("when he wants to be"). Is that fair?

PS I should say that it's impossible to tell from Babu's stats whether Can reached his top speed - ie the team's top speed - when he was going forwards  or backwards, so it's at least possible that you might be wrong in your own assessment.

Not always switched on?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Not saying he wasn't highly regarded, just he improved drastically as the years went by. From being a good, not great player to having a successful very very successful spells at Real and Bayern for years to come.

Using Alonso turning down Real as an example of him being well-regarded is the same as Can playing for Leverkusen and receiving interest from Bayern who he played for 38 times as a youngster, and was in discussions with them again as he had a buy-back clause in his contract. http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive---emre-can-turned-7918133

Can was a product of Bayern's academy, and he had a buy back cause so it made sense for them to be interested especially for the price. That's not something unusual for Bayern. Again I am not diminishing what Can is or can be.

But Alonso was one of the key pieces in a Sociedad side that went to Europe. They finished 2 points behind Real Madrid, and he was the captain of the side, in 2002/2003, they almost won the bloody league with him as the heart and soul of their midfield, at age what, 22?! That's a whole 2 years before he even got here!  He was player of the year that year in Spain!

So there are vastly different in terms of what they did, played when comparing their ages and when they played here and before they got here. Alonso was always consistent, Can isn't. He could be, but he isn't. Alonso never had that problem. He just got better and better.

Can has stayed at a same level.

[Yorkykopite]

Not always switched on?

Yes, possibly that.

Though he shares that characteristic with at least one other prominent central midfielder at the club. Not to mention a couple of defenders!

[classycarra]

Although according to the stats that Babu posted in this thread Can is the quickest Liverpool player there is. Or at least against Arsenal he reached speeds that others, including Mane and Salah, were unable to reach.

I must admit that surprised me. Although it also surprises me that anyone would ever think Can was slow.

I thought that was pretty logical. He has a real sprinters build. And the gaps left to counter attack meant there was a lot of the pitch for someone starting from deep, like Can, to run into.

I'd back someone who is obviously fast, like Mane, to start very well in a 100m race against professionals reach topspeed and fade early, whereas somelike like Can is clearly slow off the mark but would be building up to full speed later, and able to maintain it for longer.

[B0151?]

But if he does move to one of those and has the same role in the squad he'd also have the chance to win a lot more given those two dominate their leagues, which I'm sure he'd find an acceptable trade off.

Fair comment. Not sure he'd necessarily find it an acceptable trade off though, I'm sure his aim is to become a key player for whatever club he's at, and if he isn't then it will be somewhat of a disappointment.

[Yorkykopite]

I thought that was pretty logical. He has a real sprinters build. And the gaps left to counter attack meant there was a lot of the pitch for someone starting from deep, like Can, to run into.

I'd back someone who is obviously fast, like Mane, to start very well in a 100m race against professionals reach topspeed and fade early, whereas somelike like Can is clearly slow off the mark but would be building up to full speed later, and able to maintain it for longer.

I think that's accurate. He certainly doesn't possess the explosive speed of Mane - who is quicker off the mark than anyone I can remember playing for Pool except maybe Suarez.

But there's no doubt that Can can reach quite a lick when he gets going.

He also seems to be quick when he's carrying the ball, which is real sign of technique. Some pacy players go to pieces when they have to take the ball along with them. Some simply cannot run with it at all. Remember Carragher? And Kuyt? (although to be fair they were both slow without it too).

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I think that's accurate. He certainly doesn't possess the explosive speed of Mane - who is quicker off the mark than anyone I can remember playing for Pool except maybe Suarez.

But there's no doubt that Can can reach quite a lick when he gets going.

He also seems to be quick when he's carrying the ball, which is real sign of technique. Some pacy players go to pieces when they have to take the ball along with them. Some simply cannot run with it at all. Remember Carragher? And Kuyt? (although to be fair they were both slow without it too).

Too true. I remember Cisse overrunning it when his final touch was around 18 yards from the byeline. Painful.

I think Can has been hit and miss for us. That said on balance I'd like him to stay, even if on big wages but minus the realease clause which I feel is a slippery slope for the club. If he doesn't keep developing into our system we can always sell and get some money back.

[CraigDS]

Too true. I remember Cisse overrunning it when his final touch was around 18 yards from the byeline. Painful.

I think Can has been hit and miss for us. That said on balance I'd like him to stay, even if on big wages but minus the realease clause which I feel is a slippery slope for the club. If he doesn't keep developing into our system we can always sell and get some money back.

Sell after putting him on big wages? What club would pay a decent fee and £150k+ a week for Can?