Topic: Emre Can

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

Sure, I agree it doesn't sit well with the team's philosophy if it turns out a player is walking and jogging through games. But we're still waiting on the statistics to support the claim.

I'd say this however. There are times when you prefer players to anticipate problems rather than react to them (something that promotes jogging more than it does sprinting perhaps) and there are also times when you want players to conserve energy rather than expend it on futile chases (again this will look like jogging to some people). After all we all remember Dirk Kuyt's mad and infuriating chasing down the ball when neither he - nor the rest of the team - had any chance of getting it. It looked passionate. But it was a stupid waste of energy that also, at least sometimes, left the team stretched and easier to pick off.   

But let's wait until the official stats come through before we start slating a player for not pulling his weight.

The stats should be continually updated on Opta, but I don't have access to that. Babu I think does though.

[Koprich]

Should Can even be starting now?

I really hate him, Gini & Hendo all being on the same pitch together. Hendo gets the blame but I think that's unfair, it's the combination of them that is devoid of any creativity or forward movement.

Until Lallana is back I see our starting midfield as:

Hendo
Gini Coutinho
Salah Firmino Mane

With Can & the Ox the two bench options picked according to whether we need directness or power in midfield.

With Lallana to come back and Keita on his way, you can kinda see why Can wants to leave.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

With Lallana to come back and Keita on his way, you can kinda see why Can wants to leave.

Except there's absolutely nothing to indicate this has anything to do with playing time.

57 league starts in 75-80 games under Jurgen Klopp.

[Yorkykopite]

I really hate him, Gini & Hendo all being on the same pitch together. Hendo gets the blame but I think that's unfair, it's the combination of them that is devoid of any creativity or forward movement.

If you look at the last two away games without Hendo then maybe it's a bit less "unfair". Goals for: 11. Goals against: 1. That suggests quite a bit of "creativity" and "forward movement". 

[Iloveyoumamadou]

Except there's absolutely nothing to indicate this has anything to do with playing time.

57 league starts in 75-80 games under Jurgen Klopp.

I think it's to do with pressing, he has a lot of calf issues and he'd prefer to play in a team where he doesn't have to run as much.  http://www.empireofthekop.com/2017/04/20/why-emre-can-isnt-extending-lfc-contract-not-because-of-money/

[Tony19:6]

Indeed. Weird place for you to bring up your hilariously bad shout agenda about Wijnaldum

Not really if you read the context.

[-Willo-]

He might have a change of heart, lets just see. If he doesn't then least he cares enough to play his heart out and doesn't let complacency get in the way.

[jepovic]

Sure, I agree it doesn't sit well with the team's philosophy if it turns out a player is walking and jogging through games. But we're still waiting on the statistics to support the claim.

I'd say this however. There are times when you prefer players to anticipate problems rather than react to them (something that promotes jogging more than it does sprinting perhaps) and there are also times when you want players to conserve energy rather than expend it on futile chases (again this will look like jogging to some people). After all we all remember Dirk Kuyt's mad and infuriating chasing down the ball when neither he - nor the rest of the team - had any chance of getting it. It looked passionate. But it was a stupid waste of energy that also, at least sometimes, left the team stretched and easier to pick off.   

But let's wait until the official stats come through before we start slating a player for not pulling his weight.

Just look at Henderson playing DM, trying to do everything everywhere. He goes pressing up with Firmino, leaving a huge gap behind him. Probably gives Henderson great stats, but it's idiotic behavior by a DM. Lucas looked like a turtle, but he still beat Henderson in almost any defensive statistic.
Not that Can is all that great as DM either.

[BabuYagu]

The stats should be continually updated on Opta, but I don't have access to that. Babu I think does though.

I am a freelancer and Oct-Jan is my busiest period of the year (I earn something like 70% of my yearly in this period). So it's hard to contribute anything really meaningful here in that window. Because of that work I haven't been keeping all my stats up to date, I'll have a look at getting the rest over the international break and get some graphics made to illustrate it. Until then I'll dig out some for the games I do have. This is v Arsenal.



Many thanks to JCB for that one.

I'm working on a roundtable at the moment, and actually working, but I'll throw up a few more of these over the international break.

Here is some data though I had to hand for the first four league games that I put together already for the starting midfield 3 for each game.

Per Game

sPlayerName	team_name	Tot Dist(km/90)	Dist Walk & Jog(%)
Georginio Wijnaldum	Watford	11395	32,37
Jordan Henderson	Watford	11772	31,76
Emre Can	Watford	11197	35,9
Georginio Wijnaldum	Crystal Palace	10762	30,84
Jordan Henderson	Crystal Palace	11498	33,09
James Milner	Crystal Palace	12350	25,72
Georginio Wijnaldum	Arsenal	11082	33,13
Jordan Henderson	Arsenal	11812	31,99
Emre Can	Arsenal	9824	41,37
Georginio Wijnaldum	Manchester City	11160	26,04
Jordan Henderson	Manchester City	11881	27,4
Emre Can	Manchester City	9909	39,89

Running Average

Name	Ave Dist (km/90)	Ave % Dist Walk/Jog
Emre Can	10310	39,05
Georginio Wijnaldum	11099,75	30,6
Jordan Henderson	11740,75	31,06
James Milner	12350	25,72

I don't have the time % numbers there, just dist %. But you can see in the Arsenal graphics what I mean. He profiles as a center back rather than midfielder in terms of movement on the pitch. Which makes sense I guess as he is built like a center back.

[B0151?]

Except there's absolutely nothing to indicate this has anything to do with playing time.

57 league starts in 75-80 games under Jurgen Klopp.

I would agree that Can would get his fairshare of games if he stayed. He's not a key player though. If we were to offer him the wages of a key player, I have no doubt that he'd be staying. That's not to say there aren't other factors though (no doubt we're still probably offering more than other clubs).

[newterp]

Lallana will take a month to get into form as always - so expect to see Can often. Unless maybe coutinho drops into the midfield.

[Yorkykopite]

I don't have the time % numbers there, just dist %. But you can see in the Arsenal graphics what I mean. He profiles as a center back rather than midfielder in terms of movement on the pitch. Which makes sense I guess as he is built like a center back.

Appeciate that Babu, especially as you're busy.

I'm not certain that those stats support quite what you want them to support. I know it's only one game, but one would have to say that if Can profiles as a centre back in that match then so does Mane! Although it appears that Can is quicker than Mane, and everyone else for that matter, when he does decide to go for it! (Both players were of course subbed v Arsenal, once the game had been put to bed, and that would obviously affect their overall distances too).

I like Can. Using my eyes I mean, not the stats. I prefer Lallana and think Gini has the edge too. But Can is quite clearly a very good footballer and someone who would grace most teams on the planet, including the best German and Italian ones as well as our own. The same could almost certainly not be said of our captain, who struggles with some of the very basic things you expect from a Premier League footballer. If Can is leaving Liverpool in order to be a number 6, then that's a bloody shame because we need a number 6 ourselves.

[johnj147]

Think Can has been mostly very good this season. I like him. Strong player, good touch, good shot on him but, at the same time, you would assume that Keita coming and him running down his contract means he will be off in the summer. If that is the case, good luck to him. He has always done his best for us.

yep agree

[robertobaggio37]

I like Can. Using my eyes I mean, not the stats. I prefer Lallana and think Gini has the edge too. But Can is quite clearly a very good footballer and someone who would grace most teams on the planet, including the best German and Italian ones as well as our own. The same could almost certainly not be said of our captain, who struggles with some of the very basic things you expect from a Premier League footballer. If Can is leaving Liverpool in order to be a number 6, then that's a bloody shame because we need a number 6 ourselves.

Agree with everything.

[RayPhilAlan]

Just look at Henderson playing DM, trying to do everything everywhere. He goes pressing up with Firmino, leaving a huge gap behind him. Probably gives Henderson great stats, but it's idiotic behavior by a DM. Lucas looked like a turtle, but he still beat Henderson in almost any defensive statistic.
Not that Can is all that great as DM either.

Well it would be if our other midfielders were also idiots. I can't say I've ever seen Henderson pressing up with Firmino and leaving a hole behind him, because one of the other midfielders - normally Can if he's playing - drops into his spot. Just like our midfielders seem to be getting better at dropping into the fullbacks' spots when one of them is caught upfield. Henderson knows that if he spots a pressing opportunity high up the field, it's okay for him to take it because we work as a team and he can trust that someone will cover for him.

Winning the ball high up the field is what all our team are required to do if they have the opportunity.

[the 92A]

Age 23. In midfielder years he's a kid. Has the ability to surge forward and cause panic and change the narrative of a game. Sometimes he picks the wrong moment and forgets the defensive side of the game but a good manager and experience will coach him and will improve his judgment. He's got all the raw materials. The more he plays the better he'll end up. Sad that the situation has been allowed to grow to the point we'll lose him before he matures

[Joff123]

If he goes he goes. Shame to lose the cash but it isn't the first time and probably won't be the last...

With Keita coming in the summer, I don't see much playing time for him anyways. Of course always great to have a deep squad but we have other options...

What? He is our best CM at the moment, by some distance then Gini.

[clinical]

What? He is our best CM at the moment, by some distance then Gini.

Keita and Wijnaldum will take the box to box role next year imo

You then have coutinho's replacement and/or Lallana in the more attacking role.

The here comes the biggest weakness our no.6 Henderson. I hope we get another no.6 and Henderson is a squad player. Will that happen? He's our captain so I doubt it. But wish Klopp would be ruthless there. Henderson isn't clever enough defensively to be a no.6.

[clinical]

Well it would be if our other midfielders were also idiots. I can't say I've ever seen Henderson pressing up with Firmino and leaving a hole behind him, because one of the other midfielders - normally Can if he's playing - drops into his spot. Just like our midfielders seem to be getting better at dropping into the fullbacks' spots when one of them is caught upfield. Henderson knows that if he spots a pressing opportunity high up the field, it's okay for him to take it because we work as a team and he can trust that someone will cover for him.

Winning the ball high up the field is what all our team are required to do if they have the opportunity.

I have every game. But you're right regarding other midfielder dropping in. Yet they don't

[El Lobo]

What? He is our best CM at the moment, by some distance then Gini.

Who? Can?!

Hendo, Can and Wijnaldum are all much of a muchness. Good and bad. They all tend to look better when one of them is missing. Think you could stick Milner in there as well. Don't really think there's any way you could say one of them is significantly better than the others, certainly not this season.

Lallana is quite clearly our best 'CM' anyway

[owens_2k]

People lauding Can but slagging off Henderson really need to give their heads a wobble.

[Yorkykopite]

People lauding Can but slagging off Henderson really need to give their heads a wobble.

Is that what you do to yourself? Does it work?

[owens_2k]

Is that what you do to yourself? Does it work?

Wouldn't know mate. Im not deluded enough to think Can is better than Henderson!

[robertobaggio37]

Wouldn't know mate. Im not deluded enough to think Can is better than Henderson!

One is wanted by one of the Europe's top clubs and one has arguably already reached his peak. Yeah, I can see it clearly.

[El Lobo]

One is wanted by one of the Europe's top clubs and one has arguably already reached his peak. Yeah, I can see it clearly.

What's that got to do with anything?

As Liverpool players, certainly over the last eighteen months or so, they're pretty much of a muchness. Can is younger so clearly potentially better in the future. Surely the point is that neither of them have really been good enough to nail a position in the team going forward...?

[CraigDS]

One is wanted by one of the Europe's top clubs and one has arguably already reached his peak. Yeah, I can see it clearly.

That’s a bizarre way to try and back up a point of which is better.

One is free with the potential to make any buying club a huge profit after a few years, one isn’t.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

That’s a bizarre way to try and back up a point of which is better.

One is free with the potential to make any buying club a huge profit after a few years, one isn’t.

If Henderson was free, do you think Juventus, Bayern or City would show any interest?

[BabuYagu]

If Henderson was free, do you think Juventus, Bayern or City would show any interest?

I'd be amazed if City signed Can. He just doesn't fit their system really. I suspect Pep would see him as a center back though as he did Song, Javi Martinez.

[CraigDS]

If Henderson was free, do you think Juventus, Bayern or City would show any interest?

If they saw the chance to make £30m+ then yeah.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

If they saw the chance to make £30m+ then yeah.

Do you think a side would pay £35-40m for Henderson?

I'd be amazed if City signed Can. He just doesn't fit their system really. I suspect Pep would see him as a center back though as he did Song, Javi Martinez.

Probably but even Pep might struggle to adapt him there.

Fernandino is 33 next summer - it would make a lot of sense for them to be interested especially given their lack of height in midfield.

[El Lobo]

If Henderson was free, do you think Juventus, Bayern or City would show any interest?

Do you think a side would pay £35-40m for Henderson?

What a bizarre slant

Not sure what you're expecting from those questions. How on earth could anyone possibly know that?! I don't think a side would pay £35-40 million for any of those CMs at the moment. Didn't Juve offer £20 million for Can....? Do you think someone would pay £20 million for Henderson?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

What a bizarre slant

Not sure what you're expecting from those questions. How on earth could anyone possibly know that?! I don't think a side would pay £35-40 million for any of those CMs at the moment. Didn't Juve offer £20 million for Can....? Do you think someone would pay £20 million for Henderson?

It's not bizarre, though, is it? Where's this magical £30m+ profit Craig mentioned coming from if no side would pay that for Henderson?

Henderson's a more willing and able runner which is extremely important for us. Thus it's perfectly fair to discuss who suits our system better because that isn't cut and dry. But Emre Can is more adaptable, more versatile, younger, quicker, stronger and more technically gifted than Jordan Henderson, it really is that simple. That's why top sides will be queuing up for him in a way they wouldn't Henderson. There's a lot of raw ingredients to work with in the way there isn't with Henderson.

[Coolie High]

It's not bizarre, though, is it? Where's this magical £30m+ profit Craig mentioned coming from if no side would pay that for Henderson?

Henderson's a more willing and able runner which is extremely important for us. Thus it's perfectly fair to discuss who suits our system better because that isn't cut and dry. But Emre Can is more adaptable, more versatile, younger, quicker, stronger and more technically gifted than Jordan Henderson, it really is that simple. That's why top sides will be queuing up for him in a way they wouldn't Henderson. There's a lot of raw ingredients to work with in the way there isn't with Henderson.

Can't argue with this, but whats your point lol?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Can't argue with this, but whats your point lol?

Read the previous page - it's a discussion board!

[Giono]

Keita and Wijnaldum will take the box to box role next year imo

You then have coutinho's replacement and/or Lallana in the more attacking role.

The here comes the biggest weakness our no.6 Henderson. I hope we get another no.6 and Henderson is a squad player. Will that happen? He's our captain so I doubt it. But wish Klopp would be ruthless there. Henderson isn't clever enough defensively to be a no.6.

Can see that. Add Chamberlain as a rotating no 8. Those are Klopp's 3 purchases for midfield and he paid good money for them. Their skill sets are much different than Can. Says it all really.

Henderson will have this season to settle as the No 6. In the summer that will make 2 seasons to get adjusted. Maybe his future will be as another part of the rotation as No 6 (with a new midfielder) and maybe as a No 8.

[CraigDS]

It's not bizarre, though, is it? Where's this magical £30m+ profit Craig mentioned coming from if no side would pay that for Henderson?

No no, I said IF they saw the opportunity to make £30m from getting Henderson on a free then each of those clubs would probably be interested.

The fact is Henderson is 5 years older (would be 30 in 2 years when looking to sell) and English (smaller market as rarely go abroad), where as Can is still relatively young (would only be 25 in 2 years) and would appeal to a wider market.

If we’re looking at Henderson 3 years ago, on a free, with a real market value of £30m+ then I can’t see why plenty of clubs wouldn’t look at him, even if purely to make a nice profit on than a football reason.

[El Lobo]

It's not bizarre, though, is it? Where's this magical £30m+ profit Craig mentioned coming from if no side would pay that for Henderson?

Henderson's a more willing and able runner which is extremely important for us. Thus it's perfectly fair to discuss who suits our system better because that isn't cut and dry. But Emre Can is more adaptable, more versatile, younger, quicker, stronger and more technically gifted than Jordan Henderson, it really is that simple. That's why top sides will be queuing up for him in a way they wouldn't Henderson. There's a lot of raw ingredients to work with in the way there isn't with Henderson.

Top sides aren't queuing up for him though, are they...? Juventus are seemingly in a one person queue.

He's available on a free transfer, that's the point. He's a good player, but he's on a free. When we were one of the top sides in Europe, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be lauding the likes of Voronin and Kromkamp as being good because we were interested in them. The lads run his contract down to the point that a good side would like to add him to their squad, it really doesn't illustrate that its some massive mistake or missed opportunity purely because Juventus want him. Because its a free. And we all know there are multiple examples of big clubs signing pretty average players on a free because....its a free, and its usually good business.

[classycarra]

Do you think a side would pay £35-40m for Henderson?

Probably but even Pep might struggle to adapt him there.

Fernandino is 33 next summer - it would make a lot of sense for them to be interested especially given their lack of height in midfield.

Isn't it damning with faint praise that when Can is talked up, it's frequently citing only his height.

City want better footballers in their midfield than Can, and can afford to (and will) pay top dollar for more consistent players. And ones who show better signs of being capable of learning and developing.

[BabuYagu]

Do you think a side would pay £35-40m for Henderson?

Probably but even Pep might struggle to adapt him there.

Fernandino is 33 next summer - it would make a lot of sense for them to be interested especially given their lack of height in midfield.

Klopp cares about having height in his midfield, Pep never really cared so much. Busquets just happened to be tall but likely would have played the same role for him if he was 5 inches shorter. His midfield in big games for Bayern was often Alonso & Lahm. He used to put Gotze and Thiago in there too. Later Kimmich became a key player for him.

I suspect when he comes to replace Fernandinho, he will go out and buy Jorginho. Or someone of that type. He very much puts technical and tactical above physical.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

No no, I said IF they saw the opportunity to make £30m from getting Henderson on a free then each of those clubs would probably be interested.

The fact is Henderson is 5 years older (would be 30 in 2 years when looking to sell) and English (smaller market as rarely go abroad), where as Can is still relatively young (would only be 25 in 2 years) and would appeal to a wider market.

If we’re looking at Henderson 3 years ago, on a free, with a real market value of £30m+ then I can’t see why plenty of clubs wouldn’t look at him, even if purely to make a nice profit on than a football reason.

I guess the word if is there for a reason.

I agree with the bold but that's also because, from my perspective at least, Henderson was a different player three years ago. He still had his same limitations in terms of turning on the ball but, physically, he was an absolute animal and his delivery was far more consistent. Both of those have since unfortunately declined through injury and possibly a lack of rhythm/confidence in advanced areas having been playing deeper.