Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[hassinator]

Height isn't nearly as important as some thing in terms of aerial ability. Abdominal strength seems to be the main thing that dictates how well people get off the ground. Then bravery, determination, aggression, reading ball in flight, timing of your jump, positioning - these things are all more important than height.

truth be told. the boss pointed out that gini has quite the leap on him.  i do think jorginho is a key target though and wondered if you felt that the defensive shift against bournemouth would help him playing as a 6 or are you still set that he'd play as a more advanced controller?  i alternate between the two positions.  was thinking that city can accommodate the slyph like david silva in MF but obviously in a more advanced position.

[hassinator]

Was I just not paying attention on Saturday or is this a bit of a growing myth? Henderson looked central with Gini to his left as normal to me. I could be wrong as I was still in a state of delirium and disbelief from finally picking the National winner!

echo agrees with your take. perhaps i was swept away by hendo's swashbuckling performance as he was all over the pitch and offering a lot in attack.

[Giono]

he's also 5cm taller than gini who has looked boss there.

given the performance against city it's clear gini can do more than a job there already.

good to see hendo playing as an 8 again against bournemouth so i think it will be gini and jorginho to cover 6 next season.

That’s avery small sample size to predict that next season Gini will be the 6 and Henderson back to being an 8.

[afc tukrish]

and wondered if you felt that the defensive shift against bournemouth...

Still waiting to hear a more in depth discussion from Babs about this shift...

[Djimi Smicer34]

I'd be interested to see the reaction if our summer incomings were, as an example and to use players who have been linked with us in recent months, Casillas, Ndidi and Sessegnon.

A lot of people who have previously criticised our recruitment now say they trust Klopp and the club - I wonder if that would still be the case if the players we sign, even if they are what we need, aren't of the calibre or cost the amounts of money that we're seemingly expected to spend.

I'd be surprised if we sign more than three, four at a real push, and if VVD isn't still our record signing when the window closes. 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I'd be interested to see the reaction if our summer incomings were, as an example and to use players who have been linked with us in recent months, Casillas, Ndidi and Sessegnon.

A lot of people who have previously criticised our recruitment now say they trust Klopp and the club - I wonder if that would still be the case if the players we sign, even if they are what we need, aren't of the calibre or cost the amounts of money that we're seemingly expected to spend.

I'd be surprised if we sign more than three, four at a real push, and if VVD isn't still our record signing when the window closes.

I'd be extremely underwhelmed with those two if I'm honest.

[RedSince86]

When Monaco wanted 80 million last year for Lemar that was on Arsenal for the escalation of his value.

Strange that we were talking to Monaco and then they come in with a 80 million bid and we walk away and Arsenal never went through with the bid and kept Sanchez when they could have got 50 million from Man City.

I see today we have been linked with the French  Seville CB Clement Lenglet,Barca have been linked with him this  the last few months.

[clinical]

truth be told. the boss pointed out that gini has quite the leap on him.  i do think jorginho is a key target though and wondered if you felt that the defensive shift against bournemouth would help him playing as a 6 or are you still set that he'd play as a more advanced controller?  i alternate between the two positions.  was thinking that city can accommodate the slyph like david silva in MF but obviously in a more advanced position.

Not high enough.

[Hash91]

Some tenuous links to Ceballos surfacing.

How would he fit as an #8 or a #6 in our team?

[clinical]

Some tenuous links to Ceballos surfacing.

How would he fit as an #8 or a #6 in our team?

Madrid trying to engineer interest in an out of favour squad player.. well I never.

[Tuco Ramírez]

I'd be interested to see the reaction if our summer incomings were, as an example and to use players who have been linked with us in recent months, Casillas, Ndidi and Sessegnon.

A lot of people who have previously criticised our recruitment now say they trust Klopp and the club - I wonder if that would still be the case if the players we sign, even if they are what we need, aren't of the calibre or cost the amounts of money that we're seemingly expected to spend.

I'd be surprised if we sign more than three, four at a real push, and if VVD isn't still our record signing when the window closes.

It would make sense, and seems realistic for what we need...

It also wouldn't shut the door on Grabara, Woodburn, Jones, Brewster, Wilson and Camacho...

[Chalky Boots]

Zielinski is one of those players I like to watch but at the same time, something just feels off when watching him. Just can't put my finger on what it is. I would also worry his input is nowhere near high enough to ever be a high output player. He averages 1 shot, 1 dribble and 0,8 key passes per game.

He likely struggles to break into that Napoli side for good reason. I wouldn't pay anything near 57m for him.

Lemar on the other hand is scoring almost double that across the board with 1,6 shots & dribbles and 1,8 key passes. Those are down considerably from last season too.

I do agree with all this but as came out about a while back I think we profile by packing numbers and I saw something a while back and Zielinski was really good at this.

He does however offer less than what a mature Chamberlain could and I could never say he'd be worth it. Especially with Ox developing as the penetrating number 8 and Keita to come in as the all round midfield mastermind.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Not high enough.

Does anyone know how they calculate the "aerial duels" stat?

Since there was a debate on here about Jorginho's lack of aerial ability i've been looking at the stats for different players, and paying more attention to aerial duels in games. A couple of things i've noticed:

1. Manolas was recorded as not winning an aerial duel against Barca. Yet scored a goal from a corner.
2. Busquets and Fernandinho were provided by Babu as examples of number 6s who are good in the air. I wonder how much  of this is due to the Guardiola system, which results in low value hoofed clearances to an isolated striker getting buffetted by a large CB behind them? And in Busquets case is a result of playing against midget strikers more or less his whole career. I know he was coming back off an injury and a sample of 1 game is pointless, but Busquets didn't win f-all headers all night against Dzeko - I wonder how he would've faired throughout his career if he was playing against lumps like Benteke, Lukaku, or Peter Crouch?
3. Jorginho's heading stats are pretty shite (0.5/90 at 40% success). But then Koulibaly apparently only wins 1.8/90 at 55% (compared to Lovren's 4.4/90 at 65%). I watch a lot of Napoli and this simply doesn't match what i've seen. Napoli have a system in which when a ball is sent long everyone vacates space for Koulibaly to power into, and positions themselves for second balls. Koulibaly is absolutely dominant. Clearly there are a lot fewer long balls being played in Italy, but I also question how the stat is calculated.

[BabuYagu]

Does anyone know how they calculate the "aerial duels" stat?

Since there was a debate on here about Jorginho's lack of aerial ability i've been looking at the stats for different players, and paying more attention to aerial duels in games. A couple of things i've noticed:

1. Manolas was recorded as not winning an aerial duel against Barca. Yet scored a goal from a corner.
2. Busquets and Fernandinho were provided by Babu as examples of number 6s who are good in the air. I wonder how much  of this is due to the Guardiola system, which results in low value hoofed clearances to an isolated striker getting buffetted by a large CB behind them? And in Busquets case is a result of playing against midget strikers more or less his whole career. I know he was coming back off an injury and a sample of 1 game is pointless, but Busquets didn't win f-all headers all night against Dzeko - I wonder how he would've faired throughout his career if he was playing against lumps like Benteke, Lukaku, or Peter Crouch?
3. Jorginho's heading stats are pretty shite (0.5/90 at 40% success). But then Koulibaly apparently only wins 1.8/90 at 55% (compared to Lovren's 4.4/90 at 65%). I watch a lot of Napoli and this simply doesn't match what i've seen. Napoli have a system in which when a ball is sent long everyone vacates space for Koulibaly to power into, and positions themselves for second balls. Koulibaly is absolutely dominant. Clearly there are a lot fewer long balls being played in Italy, but I also question how the stat is calculated.

I think the confusion stems from whether or not they are challenged by someone. If they win a header against nobody, it is a headed pass that either succeeds or fails. Likewise a lot of the time Henderson doesn't even jump, therefore he isn't losing duels by simply not competing for them. Quantity is equally, if not more important, than success rates. Low quantity of a player in a key area can often be a sign of a player who bottles competing for headers.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

I think the confusion stems from whether or not they are challenged by someone. If they win a header against nobody, it is a headed pass that either succeeds or fails. Likewise a lot of the time Henderson doesn't even jump, therefore he isn't losing duels by simply not competing for them. Quantity is equally, if not more important, than success rates. Low quantity of a player in a key area can often be a sign of a player who bottles competing for headers.

Yeah, I figured that was the case. It does make comparisons between leagues very iffy, especially comparing the PL to Spain and Italy. It's comparing apples and oranges. I watch a truck load of Napoli, and honestly couldn't tell you how good Jorginho is in the air - he simply doesn't need to do it. His low aerial duel win % is, I think, based off around 30 total duels this season, not sure that's a big enough sample size to be drawing any conclusions. I would be very interested in seeing how he'd fare in the #6 for us to find out!

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Yeah, I figured that was the case. It does make comparisons between leagues very iffy, especially comparing the PL to Spain and Italy. It's comparing apples and oranges. I watch a truck load of Napoli, and honestly couldn't tell you how good Jorginho is in the air - he simply doesn't need to do it. His low aerial duel win % is, I think, based off around 30 total duels this season, not sure that's a big enough sample size to be drawing any conclusions. I would be very interested in seeing how he'd fare in the #6 for us to find out!

What makes you think he would be aerially good though? I can totally see the arguments for signing him - his passing is fantastic for starters - but let's be realistic, athletically he could struggle over here.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

What makes you think he would be aerially good though? I can totally see the arguments for signing him - his passing is fantastic for starters - but let's be realistic, athletically he could struggle over here.

Nothing (I never said he would). I think we'd do what Napoli do, and adapt to his strengths and weaknesses. I think his strengths would do so much for us it'd be unreal. He brings that calmness and amazing game intelligence. his forward passing would cause the opposition all sorts of problems as well. But we'd have to adapt to his lack of aerial ability and lack of speed. I don't think they would be major weaknesses in the way he would allow us to play.

[Asam]

Nothing (I never said he would). I think we'd do what Napoli do, and adapt to his strengths and weaknesses. I think his strengths would do so much for us it'd be unreal. He brings that calmness and amazing game intelligence. his forward passing would cause the opposition all sorts of problems as well. But we'd have to adapt to his lack of aerial ability and lack of speed. I don't think they would be major weaknesses in the way he would allow us to play.

Yep, if we are worried about a weakness defending against headers then sign a better centre back than Lovren, whoever is the #6 needs to be a brilliant passer in my opinion as we don’t have that in midfield, we’ve got plenty who can run but no one who can really pass and orchestrate play or assist the assister

[hassinator]

That’s avery small sample size to predict that next season Gini will be the 6 and Henderson back to being an 8.

where's the fun in scientific objectivity?

[hassinator]

Not high enough.

can't argue with that buddy. maybe best deployed against teams that keep it on the ground?

Some tenuous links to Ceballos surfacing.

How would he fit as an #8 or a #6 in our team?

linked extensively in january.  he's really good and much more than a squad player.  madrid bought him for €16m and, if we could get him for that, he'd be an absolute steal.  great passing and dribbling but not enough goals as an AM however i think he has it in him to be a top drawer 8 for klopp.  of course a limit to how many MFs we can have at any one time but he'd definitely be a good signing.  not in the keita class but maybe the sort of player who would flower like the ox under klopp?

[hassinator]

It would make sense, and seems realistic for what we need...

It also wouldn't shut the door on Grabara, Woodburn, Jones, Brewster, Wilson and Camacho...

i think casillas a good shout as alisson alternative.  i mean more as a mentor for karius; a finishing school. it would mean that alisson was no longer a target/ungettable/too expensive/we prefer to spend on someone else. 

sessegnon would be a great signing. best young brit of his generation.  the sort of player the mancs sign and then don't know what to do with as they only play senior pros but could grow into a pre-injury bale type signing.

[Gnurglan]

I'm impressed with the way we have identified players who have improved us. Just think Salah, VVD, AOC and Robertson. That's a very high hit rate. When Coutinho was here he was a key player and now it's like we have forgotten about him. We find a way to make the pieces fit.

Do we give Klopp enough credit for this? I'm not sure we do.

When Keita arrives, we will have a plan for him too. A big role. I reckon Keita and AOC will destroy a lot of opponent midfields next season with their runs, so we need that deep controller behind. I'm not even gonna guess who that will be. It could well be one we already have (Henderson...). Instead I see the main concern as our squad depth for the front three. Last weekend I thought about PL players who could fit the bill. I ended up with Alexis Sanchez. It's that kind of ability and the ability to play in multiple positions I think we'll seek, not a backup to Salah or even Coutinho's replacement.

[hassinator]

What makes you think he would be aerially good though? I can totally see the arguments for signing him - his passing is fantastic for starters - but let's be realistic, athletically he could struggle over here.

but isn't it his passing quality exactly what we're looking to introduce to our MF?  we have a lot of athletic but relatively orthodox MFs at the moment so need to make an accommodation to bring his flair into the team?  having a pirlo in the team; someone who can instantly transform defence into a chance or even an assist?

[hassinator]

Nothing (I never said he would). I think we'd do what Napoli do, and adapt to his strengths and weaknesses. I think his strengths would do so much for us it'd be unreal. He brings that calmness and amazing game intelligence. his forward passing would cause the opposition all sorts of problems as well. But we'd have to adapt to his lack of aerial ability and lack of speed. I don't think they would be major weaknesses in the way he would allow us to play.

hello jumpers for goalposts.  really enjoy your posts. 

what's jorginho's positioning like?  hoping it's excellent to compensate for lack of speed.

also guessing that under klopp he will never have been fitter and will be able to run, run, run all day long.

[hassinator]

 Instead I see the main concern as our squad depth for the front three. Last weekend I thought about PL players who could fit the bill. I ended up with Alexis Sanchez. It's that kind of ability and the ability to play in multiple positions I think we'll seek, not a backup to Salah or even Coutinho's replacement.

agree and this player will cost a bomb as they have to be good enough to start in the most ferocious attack in europe.

[Gnurglan]

agree and this player will cost a bomb as they have to be good enough to start in the most ferocious attack in europe.

Of course and that's not easy to find. But I reckon we are looking for one player (for the front three). There has been a lot of talk about our CM, but Klopp found a way to deal with Man C, even with both Henderson and Can out. That's a very good thing. Going forward we look alright. We perhaps lack a player who can play between the lines, but I wonder if we look for that player to be a CM, or if we think Firmino is the real key here. I think about the comparison made on here before, that to Arsenal of the past, where Firmino is our Bergkamp and Salah is our Henry. Then it's a backup to Firmino, more than a deeper creative player we need, isn't it? Also, add Keita and how many CMs do we count? Which makes me wonder if we are looking for another CM at all.

[hassinator]

anfield wraps new show discussing all of what we've been debating on here.

[hassinator]

anfield wraps new show discussing all of what we've been debating on here.

non vintage.

[JackWard33]

Yep, if we are worried about a weakness defending against headers then sign a better centre back than Lovren, whoever is the #6 needs to be a brilliant passer in my opinion as we don’t have that in midfield, we’ve got plenty who can run but no one who can really pass and orchestrate play or assist the assister

An elite passer would definitely improve us there but there are so few of them that are defensively good and mobile enough .... try and make a list it’s super tough - most of them are at super rich clubs ... possible we get younger player who doesn’t play all the games initially .... dunno. It’s tough

[hassinator]

dunno. It’s tough

it's jorginho.

[JackWard33]

it's jorginho.

Yeah I agree but he’ll be tough to get - I’d be amazed if City didn’t want him (plus other clubs im guessing). If we don’t want to pay his price or can’t get him it’s hard to come up with a name that makes sense and is gettable after that (Rabiot was shouted up on here ... dunno how good his passing is that it would massively improve us ? ... ) - it’s a short list

[Agent99]

The Lemar valuation seems to have been prompted by an interviewer asking the Monaco VP if he would cost between £95m to £115m and he simply said he would cost a lot. I think he will probably go for around £75m.

[the_red_pill]

They want £102m for Lemar?



Monaco on the wind up. He's not worth half that.

Watch them get more and more desperate before he goes somewhere for £50m by the end of the window. No one is paying that for Lemar, he's not progressed. Granted good players left but at that price he should look the standout player. He doesn't. 

Not a transfer thread, but it's going to be silly season again!
I can imagine the asking "price" for the likes of Lemar being quite high as soon as he does something half-decent at the WC(if he's part of the squad).
It's prolly going to be a mad window and everyone will be licking their lips at the amount of Premier League money the English clubs will have- to "throw" away. Agents and Italian clubs are going to be a bit "restless" and stirring up shit. There's a vibrant market for middle-of-the-road players too.
The likes of West Ham, NEverton, Swansea, Leicester, Stoke etc..(hell - even Villa and Sunderland)
Poor sods!

[David Struhme]

Been seeing a few links with Alderwereld this week. Would be a great partner for VVD and sounds like he wants out at spurs.

[RedForeverTT]

They want £102m for Lemar?



Monaco on the wind up. He's not worth half that.

Watch them get more and more desperate before he goes somewhere for £50m by the end of the window. No one is paying that for Lemar, he's not progressed. Granted good players left but at that price he should look the standout player. He doesn't.

Utd will turn up to offer £150m since the asking price was just £102m.

These days it isn't what we think he is worth but how much others are willing to pay. Similarly, no clubs thought Pogba was worth more than £50m but Utd blinked and offered £90m.

I see junk on Antique Roadshow sold for thousands too.

[Asam]

An elite passer would definitely improve us there but there are so few of them that are defensively good and mobile enough .... try and make a list it’s super tough - most of them are at super rich clubs ... possible we get younger player who doesn’t play all the games initially .... dunno. It’s tough

If that’s the profile we are looking for we will simply sign the best available talent, Salah, Firmino, Mane, Keita, Ox, VVD all cane from clubs who are not Elite, so why would the #6 be any different? The thing I’m nit sure about is whether Klopp and his team will be looking for a Weigl/Jorginho type or someone like Bender/wanyama/Ndidi

Personally I think sign a better centre back than Lovren who doesn’t go mental and lose it in games and then we can focus on a midfielder who can pick out the abundance of runners in front of him in our side

[PhaseOfPlay]

If that’s the profile we are looking for we will simply sign the best available talent, Salah, Firmino, Mane, Keita, Ox, VVD all cane from clubs who are not Elite, so why would the #6 be any different? The thing I’m nit sure about is whether Klopp and his team will be looking for a Weigl/Jorginho type or someone like Bender/wanyama/Ndidi

Personally I think sign a better centre back than Lovren who doesn’t go mental and lose it in games and then we can focus on a midfielder who can pick out the abundance of runners in front of him in our side

Huh?

Has he done that in the recent past? He's actually pretty solid this season. In fact, in the league games he has played, we have conceded less goals than when any of our other central defenders have played, bar Klavan:

Code: [Select]

Apps GA GA/G
Lovren 26 22 0.85
Matip 25 27 1.08
V. Dijk 22 25 1.14
Klavan 17 13 0.76

[Brissyred]

Huh?

Has he done that in the recent past? He's actually pretty solid this season. In fact, in the league games he has played, we have conceded less goals than when any of our other central defenders have played, bar Klavan:

Code: [Select]

Apps GA GA/G
Lovren 26 22 0.85
Matip 25 27 1.08
V. Dijk 22 25 1.14
Klavan 17 13 0.76

Where did you get those stats?
VVD has only played 15 games for us, 10 league, 3 cl and 2 fa cup, we've only shipped 7 in the league, 1 in the cl and 4 in the fa cup.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Where did you get those stats?
VVD has only played 15 games for us, 10 league, 3 cl and 2 fa cup, we've only shipped 7 in the league, 1 in the cl and 4 in the fa cup.

Good point - got them from Premier League.com. They must be including the Southampton games too then. I'll have to dig into that more later.

[hassinator]

Yeah I agree but he’ll be tough to get - I’d be amazed if City didn’t want him (plus other clubs im guessing). If we don’t want to pay his price or can’t get him it’s hard to come up with a name that makes sense and is gettable after that (Rabiot was shouted up on here ... dunno how good his passing is that it would massively improve us ? ... ) - it’s a short list

rabiot is mustard but different kind of player. he can play as a 6 but PSG brought diarra in at xmas to anchor the MF to let him play further forward.