Poll

How do we think the UK Will do - Assuming Brexit happens (Hard or Soft..)

Things will be brilliant from the word go and will get better every week!
Things will start off a bit dodgy, but over time things gradually improve and get better
Things will start off dodgy and remain that way for the forseeable future
Things will start off dodgy and then decline slightly with things getting a bit worse
Complete clusterfuck from start to finish

Author Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)  (Read 875599 times)

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #320 on: October 21, 2016, 12:04:26 am »
Frightening. Yes you have just committed financial suicide for about 50 years, enjoy. Places like that will die on their arse even more than before.
the funny thing is they think that no EU will lead to more prosperity to them, divvies

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #321 on: October 21, 2016, 12:15:00 am »
It's just a huge, depressing mess that stems from a weak Tory government giving into pressure from an un-educated public who have been fed lies for years from numerous media sources about it all.

To be honest, if one thing comes from all of this I hope it's harsher punishments on the media for reporting lies and propaganda. The way they get away with writing whatever shite they want for millions to read, then write a small retraction a week later a few pages in is wrong, and it's fed this entire culture that's grown around immigration and the EU. People didn't know what they were voting for, and the government needs to look at how it came to that.

If the S*n writes a front page proven to be a lie about "benefit tourists", then their next front page should be one apologising with equal advertisement and prominence. We've laughed and rolled our eyes for years at the crazy front pages the mail, s*n and express have printed, but this is the natural conclusion of years of mis-information and scare mongering. A country scared of the rest of the world, and totally unsure of the actual facts and figures of the world around them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:17:56 am by Crosby Wych »
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #322 on: October 21, 2016, 12:25:12 am »
If the S*n writes a front page proven to be a lie about "benefit tourists", then their next front page should be one apologising with equal advertisement and prominence. We've laughed and rolled our eyes for years at the crazy front pages the mail, s*n and express have printed, but this is the natural conclusion of years of mis-information and scare mongering. A country scared of the rest of the world, and totally unsure of the actual facts and figures of the world around them.
can remember years and years ago the fella who played don beech in the bill complained that the rag could print a complete lie on the front page about him (something about what happened at a party his teenage daughter did and him getting into a fight with someone from memory) yet they printed the apology in a tiny corner on page 30, heather mills has campaigned for this as well but she's pretty toxic in the eyes of many so doesn't get much attention.

Then again I can't imagine many politicians would want to push for this, mainly because they need their help to spread their lies/misinformation to get into power and no doubt they'd go to town on any minor indiscretion to try to ruin them for having the nerve to 'attack the freedom of the press'

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #323 on: October 21, 2016, 08:11:21 am »
Best thing that could happen to this country would be the print media ceasing to exist. Thankfully that'll probably happen in the next twenty years or so.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #324 on: October 21, 2016, 01:13:22 pm »
Against my better judgement, I sat down and watched Question Time for the first time in months last night - so long ago in fact I can't remember when last I endured it. Holy fucking Jesus! When did it turn into 50 minutes of hate? At one point, I honestly thought some members of the audience might start flinging their own faeces at Yanis Varoufakis, Angela Rayner or Ken Clarke. On Brexit and immigration, it took a foreigner - a highly eloquent and educated one, admittedly - to point out the massive flaws in both leaving the EU without a plan and to hold up a mirror to the audience on the horrific nature of the demonisation of the young asylum seekers coming in from Calais by both our press and MPs.

"Treat them with respect. Treat them as humans. Treat their trauma." That's pretty humane, especially for an economist.

"Nah, show us your fucking teeth! Get the fucking X-ray machine out!"

Even when he was saying he respected their democratic right to vote Brexit, Varoufakis was, bizarrely, shouted down. As was the Polish woman in the audience who felt hate and discrimination was on the rise post-Brexit, after living here for more than 20 years. At one point, she had to say, "You can boo me in a minute, just let me finish." Before they attempted to heckle her again.   

If that audience is representative (and I don't think it is, btw) of post-Brexit England, then we're well and truly fucked.   

I know they have a somewhat apocryphal reputation for mistakenly hanging a monkey in Hartlepool; however, on last night's evidence, it seemed well-earned.

Anyway, earlier I came across this from Orwell written back in 1947 on our attitude to 'foreigners' and refugees. As always, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose:

"The younger man remarked that he belonged to several business and civic associations, and that on all of them he made a point of putting forward resolutions that the Poles should be sent back to their own country. The older one added that the Poles were ‘very degraded in their morals’. They were responsible for much of the immorality that was prevalent nowadays. ‘Their ways are not our ways,’ he concluded piously. It was not mentioned that the Poles pushed their way to the head of queues, wore bright-coloured clothes and displayed cowardice during air raids, but if I had put forward a suggestion to this effect I am sure it would have been accepted.

One cannot of course, do very much about this kind of thing. It is the contemporary equivalent of antisemitism. By 1947, people of the kind I am describing would have caught up with the fact that antisemitism is discreditable, and so the scapegoat is sought elsewhere. But the race hatred and mass delusions which are part of the pattern of our time might be somewhat less bad in their effects if they were not reinforced by ignorance. If in the years before the war, for instance, the facts about the persecution of Jews in Germany had been better known, the subjective popular feeling against Jews would probably not have been less, but the actual treatment of Jewish refugees might have been better. The refusal to allow refugees in significant numbers into this country would have been branded as disgraceful. The average man would still have felt a grudge against the refugees, but in practice more lives would have been saved.

So also with the Poles. The thing that most depressed me in the above-mentioned conversation was the recurrent phrase, ‘let them go back to their own country’. If I had said to those two businessmen, ‘Most of these people have no country to go back to’, they would have gaped. Not one of the relevant facts would have been known to them. They would never have heard of the various things that have happened to Poland since 1939, any more than they would have known that the over-population of Britain is a fallacy or that local unemployment can coexist with a general shortage of labour. I think it is a mistake to give such people the excuse of ignorance. You can’t actually change their feelings, but you can make them understand what they are saying when they demand that homeless refugees shall be driven from our shores, and the knowledge may make them a little less actively malignant.
"

http://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19470124.html
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #325 on: October 21, 2016, 01:24:33 pm »
I had to turn Question Time off after the very first question and all the Brexit motherfuckers started their Trump love in. Absolute cesspool dwelling shitbags.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #326 on: October 21, 2016, 01:41:32 pm »

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #327 on: October 21, 2016, 02:17:10 pm »
Surprised M&S is that close, ironic that Lidl and Aldi are ranked so high

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #328 on: October 21, 2016, 02:33:18 pm »
Against my better judgement, I sat down and watched Question Time for the first time in months last night....

How strange. I watched it too for the first time in a long time. It was dreadful. I always expect to dislike what I hear but it was very depressing to learn what puny ideas people have about what constitutes 'democracy'. All their chatter about the 'triumph of the will' was just pure ignorance. Kenneth Clark was good-ish because - rightly - he couldn't care less about Hartlepool and didn't try to meet the hecklers half-way. Yanis V, of course, was also good. Wasted on the audience though. One or two seemed to get what he was trying to say about Mussolini but I suspect most of the others had never even heard of the man.

Thanks for the Orwell passage. I didn't know it. He's right. Mind you, he's nearly always right.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #329 on: October 21, 2016, 02:44:17 pm »
Think the worst part of Question Time was Yanis trying to discuss the options moving forward with brexit only to be shot down by Dimbleby for 'going into too much detail'.

Fucks sake.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #330 on: October 21, 2016, 03:02:43 pm »
Think the worst part of Question Time was Yanis trying to discuss the options moving forward with brexit only to be shot down by Dimbleby for 'going into too much detail'.

Fucks sake.
in fairness to dimbleby they were in Hartlepool so detail is too much for them

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #331 on: October 21, 2016, 03:08:54 pm »
in fairness to dimbleby they were in Hartlepool so detail is too much for them

Well, yeah, exactly.

Every time him or Ken Clarke spoke everyone in the audience just went silent because they didn't understand what the hell they were talking about without using soundbites and buzz words.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #332 on: October 21, 2016, 03:20:43 pm »
I enjoyed Question Time mainly due to the disdain Yiannis V and Ken Clarke had for the audience. It was enjoyable to see them essentially not giving a fuck about those in the crowd.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #333 on: October 21, 2016, 03:28:15 pm »
The audience was mixed,  Yanis Varoufakis was clapped for many of his points on refugees as well as jeered. Hartlepool may not be a nice place to live but to label the town as knuckle dragging thickos does them a diservice and leaves them to the likes of UKIP. People hurting and desperate because of austerity are looking for answers and experience can quickly change their minds, lumping them in all together would be a disaster for the left.
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #334 on: October 21, 2016, 03:37:15 pm »
I enjoyed Question Time mainly due to the disdain Yiannis V and Ken Clarke had for the audience.

That's such a tragic statement on both counts.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #335 on: October 21, 2016, 04:51:13 pm »
Canada-EU trade deal, 7 years in negotiation, collapses. Making it look near impossible for a post-Brexit successful deal



Donald Tusk, the European Council president, said earlier this week that failure to complete the EU-Canada deal would make striking post-Brexit trade deals with Britain near-impossible.

"If you are not able to convince people that trade agreements are in their interests ... we will have no chance to build public support for free trade, and I am afraid that means that CETA could be our last free-trade agreement," he said.

Tusk's remarks were echoed by Cecilia Malmstrom, the EU's trade commissioner. If the EU "can't make it with Canada," the Swede said earlier this week, "I'm not sure we can make it with UK."

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-article-50-european-union-canada-trade-deal-wallonia-belgium-2016-10
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #336 on: October 21, 2016, 05:28:22 pm »
But we were all told the rest of the world is desperate to do deals with us and it will be easy for us...

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #337 on: October 21, 2016, 05:32:00 pm »
Tusk's remarks were echoed by Cecilia Malmstrom, the EU's trade commissioner. If the EU "can't make it with Canada," the Swede said earlier this week, "I'm not sure we can make it with UK." [/i]
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-article-50-european-union-canada-trade-deal-wallonia-belgium-2016-10

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #338 on: October 21, 2016, 05:32:49 pm »
The audience was mixed,  Yanis Varoufakis was clapped for many of his points on refugees as well as jeered. Hartlepool may not be a nice place to live but to label the town as knuckle dragging thickos does them a diservice and leaves them to the likes of UKIP. People hurting and desperate because of austerity are looking for answers and experience can quickly change their minds, lumping them in all together would be a disaster for the left.

Its almost certain to become a UKIP seat at the next election.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #339 on: October 21, 2016, 05:35:59 pm »
Dont be daft, wait until they see our massive new boat. Theyll be powerless.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #340 on: October 21, 2016, 05:54:13 pm »
Its almost certain to become a UKIP seat at the next election.
Most probably you are right but It used to be solid Labour which didn't stop UKIP having a go at changing opinions, if we write off those who vote UKIP we can never win them back and experience can change peoples views quickly as long as there is still people arguing that they are wrong, in their desperation, rather than dismissing them. Not saying all, some are brain dead but there is a good proportion looking for answers that are barking up the wrong tree and need to experience UKIP letting them down.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #341 on: October 21, 2016, 06:21:42 pm »
Against my better judgement, I sat down and watched Question Time for the first time in months last night - so long ago in fact I can't remember when last I endured it. Holy fucking Jesus! When did it turn into 50 minutes of hate? At one point, I honestly thought some members of the audience might start flinging their own faeces at Yanis Varoufakis, Angela Rayner or Ken Clarke. 


I too watched QT with an open mouth. I don't think I've seen such an aggressive bunch, outside of a 1970s football hooligans collective, in my life. Even when the panel agreed with them they shouted them down. At one point Angela Rayner explained that she wanted to negotiate Brexit to ensure that her constituents kept their jobs and she was howled at. Ken Clarke made a stronger case for Remain and they listened in almost repectful silence. Like all misogynist bullies they realised Ken Clarke wasn't scared of them so they didn't try it on but the fact that a woman has the audacity to want to try and represent her constituents? Boo her back to the kitchen!

I also don't think that that was a representative audience of Brexiteers but it would be shocking to think that was a representative audience of Hartlepool, lynched monkey or not.

It also occurred to me, going back to the theme of the thread that the rich will get richer.

A simple example. If a non EU citizen buys luxury goods, say a Chanel suit and matching hand bag and shoes in Bond Street, then they can claim back the VAT. I'm not sure if the 20% rate applies but I assume that will be what they claim back. So at the moment Americans, Russians and Chinese etc can get their luxury goods cheaper than UK residents.

After Brexit  Bond Street will be flooded with the wealthy of Europe buying cut price Chanel, Gucci etc. So the 20% VAT that currently goes to the UK exchequer will stop and the European rich will be that little richer.

So the wealthy, and the wealthy shareholders of luxury brands, will be a bit wealthier and here will be less money to spend on supporting impoverished parts of the UK.


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #342 on: October 21, 2016, 06:32:26 pm »
http://www.hasblog.co.uk/brexit-hangover

I buy my coffee from this guy - it's an interesting read on how Brexit is impacting on businesses, but also makes the point that the consumer hasn't got a clue what's coming down the line in terms of price hikes.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #343 on: October 21, 2016, 06:36:57 pm »
Its almost certain to become a UKIP seat at the next election.
if UKIP are still around then, been kicked out of their offices, massive debt and donors disappearing, can see them disappearing soon

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #344 on: October 21, 2016, 06:40:54 pm »
http://www.hasblog.co.uk/brexit-hangover

I buy my coffee from this guy - it's an interesting read on how Brexit is impacting on businesses, but also makes the point that the consumer hasn't got a clue what's coming down the line in terms of price hikes.
its almost as if the British economy is massively dependent on the service industry and is a net importer and people didn't realise this

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #345 on: October 21, 2016, 06:48:47 pm »
Most probably you are right but It used to be solid Labour which didn't stop UKIP having a go at changing opinions, if we write off those who vote UKIP we can never win them back and experience can change peoples views quickly as long as there is still people arguing that they are wrong, in their desperation, rather than dismissing them. Not saying all, some are brain dead but there is a good proportion looking for answers that are barking up the wrong tree and need to experience UKIP letting them down.

I agree with that as a matter of principle (as well as strategy). But the Labour party must also appeal to its sturdier supporters, the majority of whom voted to Remain. It must also remain a party of "the metropolitan liberal elite" (I've put that as tendentiously as I possibly could) because they are the ones who have the best ideas.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #346 on: October 21, 2016, 06:54:59 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.


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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #347 on: October 21, 2016, 07:04:17 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #348 on: October 21, 2016, 07:06:36 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.


How do you think things will be better in five years time?

Genuinely interested.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #349 on: October 21, 2016, 07:07:25 pm »
I agree with that as a matter of principle (as well as strategy). But the Labour party must also appeal to its sturdier supporters, the majority of whom voted to Remain. It must also remain a party of "the metropolitan liberal elite" (I've put that as tendentiously as I possibly could) because they are the ones who have the best ideas.

Dare I say it but the opinion of the last sentence is probably why Leave won the referendum.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #350 on: October 21, 2016, 07:15:55 pm »
Dare I say it but the opinion of the last sentence is probably why Leave won the referendum.

Nah, doubt it. I think they won because a slight majority wanted to cut down on immigration.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #351 on: October 21, 2016, 07:19:17 pm »
Recent YouGov survey on accepting child migrants. Question was that the country let in 14 child migrants in the week and whether this was the right or wrong decision. Of Remain voters 74% felt it was the right decision, 13% the wrong decision and 13%. Amongst Brexit voters, 34% felt it was right, 52% felt it was wrong and 14% dont know.

Offline the 92A

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #352 on: October 21, 2016, 07:20:54 pm »
I agree with that as a matter of principle (as well as strategy). But the Labour party must also appeal to its sturdier supporters, the majority of whom voted to Remain. It must also remain a party of "the metropolitan liberal elite" (I've put that as tendentiously as I possibly could) because they are the ones who have the best ideas.
No disagreement, there should be no compromising of argument to win UKIP'ers over but neither should we write off sections of the working class because they've been sold a dud argument.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #353 on: October 21, 2016, 07:20:57 pm »
Most probably you are right but It used to be solid Labour which didn't stop UKIP having a go at changing opinions, if we write off those who vote UKIP we can never win them back and experience can change peoples views quickly as long as there is still people arguing that they are wrong, in their desperation, rather than dismissing them. Not saying all, some are brain dead but there is a good proportion looking for answers that are barking up the wrong tree and need to experience UKIP letting them down.

Do Trump supporters get that benefit of the doubt?

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #354 on: October 21, 2016, 08:05:10 pm »
Nah, doubt it. I think they won because a slight majority wanted to cut down on immigration.

They also wanted to give the metropolitan liberal elite who are seen to have benefited from immigration a poke in the eye with a shitty stick.
Thinking is overrated.
The mind is a tool, it's not meant to be used that much.
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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #355 on: October 21, 2016, 08:24:29 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.
Genuinely interested in your reasoning for voting for Brexit
I am an educated guy who weighed up the options
Tbf I can't understand the rational for the vote on economic reasons so really am interested

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #356 on: October 21, 2016, 09:41:52 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.


And the ignorant..you forgot the ignorant.

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #357 on: October 21, 2016, 09:53:38 pm »
As someone who voted for Brexit I am glad I seldom visit this thread. But of course only idiots and racists and bigots or right wingers voted for Brexit eh...........

Thank fuck we are leaving the hellhole that is the EU.



Do you like wrestling?

Offline the 92A

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #358 on: October 21, 2016, 10:04:41 pm »
Do Trump supporters get that benefit of the doubt?
Of course they do. Obviously there are hard line racist loons who you'lll never convince and fuck them, but I was watching a documentary from a small steel town where the plant had shut down, destroying the whole fabric of the town. The interviewer was talking to people who had voted democrat all their lives who were Union members before their livelyhood was destroyed and every aspect of their lives were effected. They wrongly saw saw Trump as someone who could make a difference to their lives. Of course he's no real radical any more than Frottage but these aren't hardline racists but people worth arguing with.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Brexit - What would those in power get out of it? The Fallout Thread..
« Reply #359 on: October 21, 2016, 10:06:04 pm »

Do you like wrestling?

I love wrestling, please don't equate wrestling fans with uneducated/insular/xenophobic (delete as appropriate) Vote Leave morons. Ta.